Let's talk about Pernell McPhee

[rmcjacket23]

So good pass rushers are becoming even more important. Got it.

Or more irrelevant...

 

The closer the NFL gets to adopting college-esque offensive systems, the importance of pass rushers (and especially interior one's) decreases significantly. They aren't nearly de-valued at that level at this point.

 

It was the #1 reason why the Bengals beat the Ravens in week 1. Dalton's getting the ball out in 2.5 seconds on nearly every throw. You can compile the best pass rushers on the planet, and you'll be lucky to get there more than 2-3 times.

 

Clearly, not every offensive system in the league works that way (ours included), but some do, and they are increasing.

 

Everything looks great from a pass rushing perspective when you've got statues like Glennon and Ryan standing in the pocket waiting for their receivers to run 15 yard routes on a consistent basis and their offensive lines are horrible. That's the easy part.

[rmcjacket23]

His base salary will be dramatically reduced. The total money he makes might not depending on the size of the potential signing bonus, but its still a reduction. He doesnt have to agree to an extension though, and frankly I wouldnt be surprised if he just retires as he had hinted at in the past.

I think he's not that close to retiring. The retirement thing got blown out of proportion... he's just the Ed Reed type who wants to go play the one year contract circuit to get as much as he can.

 

To him, it really won't matter whether his base salary gets reduced, because if he's getting bonus money, he's still taking home that cash in that year. Even a $8M signing bonus on an extension with a $1M salary means he takes home more than he would have normally in 2015.

[arnie_uk]

I think he's not that close to retiring. The retirement thing got blown out of proportion... he's just the Ed Reed type who wants to go play the one year contract circuit to get as much as he can.

To him, it really won't matter whether his base salary gets reduced, because if he's getting bonus money, he's still taking home that cash in that year. Even a $8M signing bonus on an extension with a $1M salary means he takes home more than he would have normally in 2015.

hows it not a paycut? He gets 8mil for one years work compared to 8 signing bonus being spread out over 3 years work. Plus say 2 mil sal each year. 8 plus 2x3 equals 14 over 3 years, or 8mil over 1 year. Its a pay cut

[rmw10]

Well this has been a nice read.  Pass rush not important?  Got it.  Tell that to Matt Ryan.

[Static]

Pass-Rush is the only way to stop highpowered throwing offenses at this point in the NFL. Since Corners can hardly breathe on receivers.

[allblackraven]

Or more irrelevant...

 

The closer the NFL gets to adopting college-esque offensive systems, the importance of pass rushers (and especially interior one's) decreases significantly. They aren't nearly de-valued at that level at this point.

 

It was the #1 reason why the Bengals beat the Ravens in week 1. Dalton's getting the ball out in 2.5 seconds on nearly every throw. You can compile the best pass rushers on the planet, and you'll be lucky to get there more than 2-3 times.

 

Clearly, not every offensive system in the league works that way (ours included), but some do, and they are increasing.

 

Everything looks great from a pass rushing perspective when you've got statues like Glennon and Ryan standing in the pocket waiting for their receivers to run 15 yard routes on a consistent basis and their offensive lines are horrible. That's the easy part.

Seriously?

[GrimCoconut]

Correct, but the point is... if you can give him something like maybe $20M guaranteed over the next 3 seasons, he would likely take it. I don't think he's the kind of player who is going to go bouncing around the league looking for one last payday before he retires. He could take a deal equal or similar to Suggs and be just fine, and that's probably about what he would get on the open market anyway.

Its really not like he has an option to not agree to a "pay cut", because he's going to take a "paycut" regardless of whether he's with the Ravens or not, because no team in the league is going to give him a $61M contract and $31M guaranteed for 6 years.

A pay cut sort of implies that he will just play next season for less and nothing else changes. He probably wouldn't even play for less, because his bonus money + salary would probably exceed what he was going to make this season anyway. But he will take a "paycut" if he can get some more guaranteed money and a contract extension.

I wouldn't assume Ngata wants any of that and I wouldn't assume we want it either. Ngata declined an extension this year, indicating that he didn't like whatever we offered at the time. You also have to wonder if we would want to invest a significant amount of guaranteed money into a player who may not see it through. We have stated we give extensions and restructures to players who we feel will fulfill the contract. I'm not sure Ngata fits that bill.

[Tiz]

McPhee yesterday again showed up. Whether he stays or goes will depend on who values him more - Ravens as the most versatile player on our D or desperate team as the pure pass rusher. Unfortunately I think he'll be overpaid by someone.

Reminds me of adalius alll over again

Maybe during contract negotiations Ozzie should play audalius' New England highlight tape...

[Tank 92]

See above post. And I'll ask you this: Where has Ngata been the last 4 years? He may be getting snaps, but he isn't playing at an elite level anymore. He's going to be 31 years old and has a 16 MILLION dollar cap hit next year. Simply put, he is a declining player. Ideally you give him the same extension Suggs got and have him retire a Raven, but he can't make $16M against the cap next year if the Ravens are going to be a competitive football team.

Here's a little tidbit I bet you did not know. Over the past 4 years McPhee has 13.5 sacks. Ngata has 11.5 sacks.

Do you remember Pernell's rookie year? He was absolutely fantastic playing the same role he is doing now. The past 2 years, the Ravens have moved him around a little bit and he lost some snaps because of the depth at OLB, but he is now back to playing the role where he is dominant.

Yeah, he may have had 3 years or so at 70%, but playing hurt was still enough to anchor the D line that won the SB. I'm sure you remember what happened when he had sit during that game.

Declining player? I'm not seeing that this year. He's been running sideline to sideline at times making tackles, and as always often eats two blockers. Seems to me Ngata is playing at a pretty high level.

[GrimCoconut]

Or more irrelevant...

The closer the NFL gets to adopting college-esque offensive systems, the importance of pass rushers (and especially interior one's) decreases significantly. They aren't nearly de-valued at that level at this point.

It was the #1 reason why the Bengals beat the Ravens in week 1. Dalton's getting the ball out in 2.5 seconds on nearly every throw. You can compile the best pass rushers on the planet, and you'll be lucky to get there more than 2-3 times.

Clearly, not every offensive system in the league works that way (ours included), but some do, and they are increasing.

Everything looks great from a pass rushing perspective when you've got statues like Glennon and Ryan standing in the pocket waiting for their receivers to run 15 yard routes on a consistent basis and their offensive lines are horrible. That's the easy part.

This is one of the craziest things I've ever read. Interior pass rush is the king of the NFL defense. It's a big reason why Watt is so destructive. It's a big reason why Atkins was disruptive. If you can blow up a center off the ball and get to the QB quick, you'll stop those short passes. You'll also need OLB who can contain and cover those quick screens.

So yes, pass rush is and always will be important regardless of whatever offensive scheme is present in the NFL. It just changes how you get pressure.

[rmcjacket23]

hows it not a paycut? He gets 8mil for one years work compared to 8 signing bonus being spread out over 3 years work. Plus say 2 mil sal each year. 8 plus 2x3 equals 14 over 3 years, or 8mil over 1 year. Its a pay cut

No, that's now how bonuses work. The TEAM gets to spread the bonus money out, but the player gets ALL of it up front.

 

If Ngata signs an extension, and his signing bonus is $8M and his first year salary is $1M, that means in his first year, Ngata has $9M deposited into his bank account. The team gets to prorate the $8M, but the player doesn't.

 

For example... when Joe signed his monster deal, he signed a $29M signing bonus, and had a $1M base salary in 2013. In 2013, the amount of money deposited into Joe's bank account = $30M, or approximately 1/4 of his entire contract terms.

[rmcjacket23]

I wouldn't assume Ngata wants any of that and I wouldn't assume we want it either. Ngata declined an extension this year, indicating that he didn't like whatever we offered at the time. You also have to wonder if we would want to invest a significant amount of guaranteed money into a player who may not see it through. We have stated we give extensions and restructures to players who we feel will fulfill the contract. I'm not sure Ngata fits that bill.

1. Ngata most likely turned down an extension because he had all the leverage. The Ravens could literally do nothing about it in 2014, as there was little to no cap savings by cutting him, and Ngata was already going to make $8.5M. Basically, why in the world would Ngata agree to extension... particularly when he's coming off what are perceived to be "down" seasons?

2. We did just give $16M guaranteed to a pass rusher who is two years older, coming off a major injury, and at a position that tends to decline much faster in age than interior defensive lineman. $20M guaranteed isn't exactly out of the realm of possibility for Ngata.

[gabefergy]

Yeah, he may have had 3 years or so at 70%, but playing hurt was still enough to anchor the D line that won the SB. I'm sure you remember what happened when he had sit during that game.

Declining player? I'm not seeing that this year. He's been running sideline to sideline at times making tackles, and as always often eats two blockers. Seems to me Ngata is playing at a pretty high level.

Yeah, he's declining. He has 1.5 sacks over the last 2 seasons. Sure, he's playing well but he isn't nearly the player he was when he got that contract.

[rmcjacket23]

This is one of the craziest things I've ever read. Interior pass rush is the king of the NFL defense. It's a big reason why Watt is so destructive. It's a big reason why Atkins was disruptive. If you can blow up a center off the ball and get to the QB quick, you'll stop those short passes. You'll also need OLB who can contain and cover those quick screens.

So yes, pass rush is and always will be important regardless of whatever offensive scheme is present in the NFL. It just changes how you get pressure.

Its the king of the PRESENT NFL defense. Present is the key word. Do you think these new offensive schemes are just being conjured out of thin air? Almost every offense in the NFL is using principles that have been developed by college coaches. They may not be foundational and may just be a small part of offenses right now, but just like defenses are adapting to what offenses are doing, offenses are adapting to what defenses are doing. The cycle continues forever.

 

10-15 years ago, sideline to sideline speed middle linebackers who could blow up the run were "the king" of NFL defenses. Now? Not so much.

 

Pass rushing will always be important... I stated that several times already. But the degree of importance has and always will continue to vary. Ten years from now, I would bet a large sum of money that interior pass rushing is far from the "king" of NFL defenses.

[GrimCoconut]

1. Ngata most likely turned down an extension because he had all the leverage. The Ravens could literally do nothing about it in 2014, as there was little to no cap savings by cutting him, and Ngata was already going to make $8.5M. Basically, why in the world would Ngata agree to extension... particularly when he's coming off what are perceived to be "down" seasons?

2. We did just give $16M guaranteed to a pass rusher who is two years older, coming off a major injury, and at a position that tends to decline much faster in age than interior defensive lineman. $20M guaranteed isn't exactly out of the realm of possibility for Ngata.

Who's to say Ngata doesn't have leverage this year? Who knows if he even wants to continue playing football? Maybe he would rather go on the open market and test his chances, coming of a decent year after being healthy for the first time in a while. I'm not so confident that you're right.

And since we're on the subject of Suggs, he's done a good job this year of playing OLB the way you're describing. And while he's had issues in the past, he's still playing at a high level. Also, how much money do you think is out there to give after his extension? Given the fact that we've drafted heavily on DL recently, that could well make Ngata expendable.

[gabefergy]

1. Ngata most likely turned down an extension because he had all the leverage. The Ravens could literally do nothing about it in 2014, as there was little to no cap savings by cutting him, and Ngata was already going to make $8.5M. Basically, why in the world would Ngata agree to extension... particularly when he's coming off what are perceived to be "down" seasons?

2. We did just give $16M guaranteed to a pass rusher who is two years older, coming off a major injury, and at a position that tends to decline much faster in age than interior defensive lineman. $20M guaranteed isn't exactly out of the realm of possibility for Ngata.

Suggs got 11 Million not 16 Million. Maybe if you actually provided facts instead of making things up people would take you more seriously. There are a lot more productive edge rushers that are 30+ than interior DL.

[rmcjacket23]

Suggs got 11 Million not 16 Million. Maybe if you actually provided facts instead of making things up people would take you more seriously. There are a lot more productive edge rushers that are 30+ than interior DL.

$16M guaranteed is correct. You ignored the $5M in base salaries for the first two years in Suggs contract that are 100% guaranteed

 

This is a statement of fact. Not disputable. If I were you, I'd be a bit more careful in throwing at the "facts" line.

[GrimCoconut]

Its the king of the PRESENT NFL defense. Present is the key word. Do you think these new offensive schemes are just being conjured out of thin air? Almost every offense in the NFL is using principles that have been developed by college coaches. They may not be foundational and may just be a small part of offenses right now, but just like defenses are adapting to what offenses are doing, offenses are adapting to what defenses are doing. The cycle continues forever.

10-15 years ago, sideline to sideline speed middle linebackers who could blow up the run were "the king" of NFL defenses. Now? Not so much.

Pass rushing will always be important... I stated that several times already. But the degree of importance has and always will continue to vary. Ten years from now, I would bet a large sum of money that interior pass rushing is far from the "king" of NFL defenses.

lol. Quick passes are nothing new in the NFL and have been around for some time. There are just different ways of executing. Yes, they're are cycles but some things are constants and an interior pass rusher is one of the hardest things to find in the NFL.

Some things don't change. LT are still very important. Centers are still highly valuable pieces of the offense and can drastically alter an offense without their starter.

[rmcjacket23]

Who's to say Ngata doesn't have leverage this year? Who knows if he even wants to continue playing football? Maybe he would rather go on the open market and test his chances, coming of a decent year after being healthy for the first time in a while. I'm not so confident that you're right.

nd since we're on the subject of Suggs, he's done a good job this year of playing OLB the way you're describing. And while he's had issues in the past, he's still playing at a high level. Also, how much money do you think is out there to give after his extension? Given the fact that we've drafted heavily on DL recently, that could well make Ngata expendable.

Well, Ngata doesn't have the leverage, because the Ravens can save $8.5M against the salary cap by cutting him in 2015. The cost savings actually is more than the dead money he would have. The reason he had the leverage in 2014 was because the Ravens only saved $1M in salary cap if they cut him then. Hence, in 2014, the only real question for the Ravens was if Ngata was worth $1M to this team or not, which I think everybody agrees is the case. In 2015, that's a completely different story.

[gabefergy]

$16M guaranteed is correct. You ignored the $5M in base salaries for the first two years in Suggs contract that are 100% guaranteed

 

This is a statement of fact. Not disputable. If I were you, I'd be a bit more careful in throwing at the "facts" line.

Fine, although the signing bonus is the only thing that matters in the context of what we are talking about.

 

 You are still 100% wrong about the quality of DT vs Edge players over 30. DTs deteriorate much faster.

 

And you are also 100% wrong about the importance of pass-rushers.

[rmw10]

Pretty sure Matt Ryan had to pick turf out of his helmet on his whole trip to London.  I'll take that type of pass rush any day, bad OL or not.

[GrimCoconut]

Well, Ngata doesn't have the leverage, because the Ravens can save $8.5M against the salary cap by cutting him in 2015. The cost savings actually is more than the dead money he would have. The reason he had the leverage in 2014 was because the Ravens only saved $1M in salary cap if they cut him then. Hence, in 2014, the only real question for the Ravens was if Ngata was worth $1M to this team or not, which I think everybody agrees is the case. In 2015, that's a completely different story.

There was a whole other argument besides leverage you seemingly passed over.

[gabefergy]

There was a whole other argument besides leverage you seemingly passed over.

That's his schtick. He just ignores the facts that make his argument wrong. Some people just can't admit it when they are wrong.

[rmcjacket23]

Fine, although the signing bonus is the only thing that matters in the context of what we are talking about.

 

 You are still 100% wrong about the quality of DT vs Edge players over 30. DTs deteriorate much faster.

 

And you are also 100% wrong about the importance of pass-rushers.

The signing bonus was never just the issue... that's just the largest aspect of guaranteed money in most cases, but its not always the only guaranteed money.

 

The rest of your statements, like normal, are the definition of OPINION statements.

[rmcjacket23]

There was a whole other argument besides leverage you seemingly passed over.

No, I've just got a dog chewing on my computer cord as I'm typing it out.

 

In terms of actual money of extension for Ngata, I have no idea. Its not really an issue for 2015 about how much money is available, because the entire goal of the extension would be reduce his cap amount in the short-term. They can basically do that with almost any extension they would give him. Even a $20M signing bonus over like 4 years (not going to happen... just hypothetical) with a $1M 2015 base salary would drop his cap number from $16M to like $6M in 2015. The problem with the extension is determining how much guaranteed money to give him and how long to get it to him for. Ngata might feel he's worth significant guaranteed money, and the Ravens may not agree, thus the negotiation part.

[rmw10]

No, I've just got a dog chewing on my computer cord as I'm typing it out.

 

In terms of actual money of extension for Ngata, I have no idea. Its not really an issue for 2015 about how much money is available, because the entire goal of the extension would be reduce his cap amount in the short-term. They can basically do that with almost any extension they would give him. Even a $20M signing bonus over like 4 years (not going to happen... just hypothetical) with a $1M 2015 base salary would drop his cap number from $16M to like $6M in 2015. The problem with the extension is determining how much guaranteed money to give him and how long to get it to him for. Ngata might feel he's worth significant guaranteed money, and the Ravens may not agree, thus the negotiation part.

 

No way you can get his cap number that low.  There are $7.5M in bonuses stuck on our cap no matter what.

[rmcjacket23]

No way you can get his cap number that low.  There are $7.5M in bonuses stuck on our cap no matter what.

I believe you can take prior bonus cap space and pro-rate it as another bonus if you are doing an extension. I'll have to check on that though.

[rmw10]

I believe you can take prior bonus cap space and pro-rate it as another bonus if you are doing an extension. I'll have to check on that though.

 

Nope.  That money has already been paid out, so it's stuck on the cap at that amount.

[gabefergy]

The signing bonus was never just the issue... that's just the largest aspect of guaranteed money in most cases, but its not always the only guaranteed money.

 

The rest of your statements, like normal, are the definition of OPINION statements.

How exactly is guaranteed base salary in the first 2 years of a 5 year extension relevant? All it means is the team can't cut him for the first 2 years of the deal which they wouldn't do anyways because of the dead money after giving a large signing bonus. So it's irrelevant.

 

And wrong once again. Here's a list of Edge rushers over 30 who are still playing at a high level: 

 

Terrell Suggs

Trent Cole

Elvis Dumervil

John Abraham

Cam Wake

Julius Peppers

Dwight Freeney

Robert Mathis

Jared Allen

Tamba Hali

DeMarcus Ware

 

Here's a list of DTs still playing at a high level over 30:

 

Kyle Williams

Jay Ratliff

Justin Smith

Vince Wilfork

Jason Hatcher

Cory Redding

Ngata

 

Bolded players got large contracts going into their age 30 or older season.

 

The DTs make less money when they get older, and fewer of them get paid because they decline faster than edge rushers. It's a fact.

[rmcjacket23]

Nope.  That money has already been paid out, so it's stuck on the cap at that amount.

And that's probably true, although it also won't matter significantly, because any extension is going to reduce his cap number in 2015 regardless, even if its by only $4-5M.