Official Vent Thread: Who needs to walk home and who doesn't !

[Blackbirds Rule]

Sure tackler or not he was getting beat alot by Hawkins . No cornerback other than Jimmy Smith look good yesterday in my opinion and Asa Jackson look lost at times. We need a  better outside cornerback because Jackson is probably a better fit in the nickel  and I'm not sure when Ladarius Webb will be 100 percent healthy. 

Hawkins is that type of receiver that get's the quick passes and can get a step on you. He also has the benefit of going up against Haden a lot. I think Asa will get better as the season goes but I agree we need a better outside corner. Brown is decent but when we play against the better WR's he's going to give up a big play or two. I hope he can find a way to make a play and get his confidence going. IMO once a CB makes a play they start playing with more confidence and their entire game gets better.

[pep_meister]

Hawkins is that type of receiver that get's the quick passes and can get a step on you. He also has the benefit of going up against Haden a lot. I think Asa will get better as the season goes but I agree we need a better outside corner. Brown is decent but when we play against the better WR's he's going to give up a big play or two. I hope he can find a way to make a play and get his confidence going. IMO once a CB makes a play they start playing with more confidence and their entire game gets better.

the problem isn't just brown... the problem is if brown does give up a big play or two we don't have the safeties to help. a big play just became a 7 point play and we can't afford to keep doing that.

[rmcjacket23]

no actual production? did you not watch the pre season games? those are against full time special teams units. jacoby is a burner that can't catch a cold... but guess what? deonte can run faster... a good bit faster.

Yes, preseason games. Preseason games in which he mostly WAS NOT playing against full time ST units... he was playing against guys who are trying to make the squad. The only reason you're mentioning his preseason play is because you watched him return one for a TD against Dallas in the second game.

 

And speed isn't the most important thing to being a kick returner. Its the glitzy and glamorous aspect of the job, but guys with mediocre speed run back kicks on a weekly basis.

[pep_meister]

Yes, preseason games. Preseason games in which he mostly WAS NOT playing against full time ST units... he was playing against guys who are trying to make the squad. The only reason you're mentioning his preseason play is because you watched him return one for a TD against Dallas in the second game.

 

And speed isn't the most important thing to being a kick returner. Its the glitzy and glamorous aspect of the job, but guys with mediocre speed run back kicks on a weekly basis.

speed kills

[rmcjacket23]

speed kills

Apparently not... thats all we had last season was speed. We didn't kill anybody.

 

In fact, we were usually the one's on the receiving end of the kill.

[The Raven]

 

Very disappointed with Torrey and Jacoby, personally.

 

Flacco is 33.3% passing to these two guys.

 

He is 70.2% passing to everyone else.

 

Those 2 guys are also not even gaining us 4 yards per attempt when being targeted.

 

Neither one of those guys is doing Joe any favors when the ball comes their way.  Too often they aren't coming back to the ball, they aren't completing their route, they aren't extending their hands for the catch, they're letting balls bounce off their hands, etc.  If it isn't one issue, it's another, they just can't put it together and make plays.  It's definitely hurting this team, especially when they're getting a quarter of Joe's targets.  Drawing PI is about all Torrey seems good for anymore.

 

Stat splits when targeting Torrey/Jacoby vs Everyone Else:

 

Torrey/Jacoby

9/27, 105 Yards, 0 TD, 1 INT

33.3%, 3.9 Y/A, 30.6 QB Rating

 

Everyone Else

66/94, 623 Yards, 4 TD, 1 INT

70.2%, 6.6 Y/A, 98.0 QB Rating

 

 

Thanks, stat man.

[Mick0311]

This a man coverage team with man coverage personel i'm BEFUDDLED why we aren't playing man. 

This, this, a thousand times, this!!!  Let's draft Jimmy Smith (who plays well in spite of this scheme), and not let him press the majority of the time.  It's astounding.

[pep_meister]

Apparently not... thats all we had last season was speed. We didn't kill anybody.

 

In fact, we were usually the one's on the receiving end of the kill.

all we had last season was speed? where?

[rmcjacket23]

all we had last season was speed? where?

On offense... our entire offensive receiving core was nothing but straight line speed guys and Marlon Brown.

 

Why do you think we couldn't convert a third down and medium or short to save our lives? Because we had two or three receivers on the field all the time who just ran go routes.

[rmcjacket23]

This, this, a thousand times, this!!!  Let's draft Jimmy Smith (who plays well in spite of this scheme), and not let him press the majority of the time.  It's astounding.

Name another corner or safety right now on this team that you trust playing man to man coverage?

 

There isn't one. Jimmy is good, but its naive to think the defense should completely play the exact style that Jimmy plays. If I was an offense, I would punish the Ravens for doing that. I would just ignore Jimmy all together, and just throw ball after ball after ball at the likes of Asa Jackson, Chykie Brown, and a Lardarius Webb who can barely move. AND... I'd wait for us to bring Elam or Stewart down in the box, and I'd throw ball after ball at any mediocre TE who neither of them could cover man to man.

 

Terrible idea in my opinion.

[Sami84]

route running and catching is what makes life easy for a QB

 

jacoby and torrey only have speed and agility at a very high level..

 

speed is the bonus..route running and seperation is what makes a reciever consistant.

[Blackbirds Rule]

the problem isn't just brown... the problem is if brown does give up a big play or two we don't have the safeties to help. a big play just became a 7 point play and we can't afford to keep doing that.

 

the problem isn't just brown... the problem is if brown does give up a big play or two we don't have the safeties to help. a big play just became a 7 point play and we can't afford to keep doing that.

 

 

the problem isn't just brown... the problem is if brown does give up a big play or two we don't have the safeties to help. a big play just became a 7 point play and we can't afford to keep doing that.

True both safeties look uncomfortable with the ball in the air deep. I miss the days of Ed Reed. Anytime they were throwing deep I just knew Reed was going to intercept it.

[Cillmatic]

Will Hill and Terrence Brooks. Safety tandem of the future Hopfully.

[BmoreBird22]

After hearing the retired ref explain why the play was illegal for 3 different reasons, how in the heck the refs didn't call a penalty on it baffles me. As it was explained after the play, it was an illegal play bc;

1. No player on offense can be closer than 5 yards of the sideline. Johnny was probably less than a yard from being out.

2. All offensive players must have their shoulders square with the line of scrimmage when the ball is snapped. Manziel's were perpendicular when the ball was snapped.

3. Any play designed for the sole purpose of trickery is illegal. No explanation needed for this one.

So the refs missed all 3 of those violations and the Ravens def was saved bc West wasn't set on the play. Good job refs!

Oh and to think NO one from the Browns' coaching staff knew that was illegal at practice says a lot.

#BushLeaguePlay

Wait, when did they say a play solely devised for trickery is illegal? That would rule out plays like flea flicker, halfback pass, etc.

[BmoreBird22]

I'm most interested in this rule because I've seen a lot of plays where a receiver or someone lines up out wide then motions in and *oh jk!* the offense snaps the ball, giving the receiver a head-start for either a quick pass or a hand-off. If that's really a rule, and enforced, then those plays should be dead in the water... and Percy Harvin's career, too.

Probably has to do with the fact that they did line up with their shoulders square to let you know that they were a part of the play

[beanfigger]

To be fair, those rules are for a pretty obscure set of circumstances. Just like that "seven men inside the right-hand hashmark" or whatever it was between the Chiefs and Chargers that theoretically cost the Steelers a playoff spot.

I don't have a problem with the play (yeah I get that it's against the rules, but it was one play where I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt). It's good to see a bit of creativity going on.

To be fair, the rule you just mentioned was something new, just added the offseason prior, so that was fresh in the refs' minds (although it was very rarely called during the season). The Manziel play has been illegal forever, and I've known it since I was in pewee leagues, probably before, because I saw it called in some game when I was a tot. I think they would have called something had there not already been a penalty on the play after thinking about it.

[rmcjacket23]

To be fair, the rule you just mentioned was something new, just added the offseason prior, so that was fresh in the refs' minds (although it was very rarely called during the season). The Manziel play has been illegal forever, and I've known it since I was in pewee leagues, probably before, because I saw it called in some game when I was a tot. I think they would have called something had there not already been a penalty on the play after thinking about it.

I don't think they would have, mostly because if my interpretation of the penalty is correct, its a personal foul, which is a 15 yarder. As such, that penalty would be enforced over the five yard penalty that was called for the illegal shift.

 

There is very little doubt in my mind that if the illegal shift penalty was not called, that play would have held up.

[BmoreBird22]

I don't think they would have, mostly because if my interpretation of the penalty is correct, its a personal foul, which is a 15 yarder. As such, that penalty would be enforced over the five yard penalty that was called for the illegal shift.

 

There is very little doubt in my mind that if the illegal shift penalty was not called, that play would have held up.

You sure it's not illegal formation?

[Dfence4champs2052]

I don't think they would have, mostly because if my interpretation of the penalty is correct, its a personal foul, which is a 15 yarder. As such, that penalty would be enforced over the five yard penalty that was called for the illegal shift.

 

There is very little doubt in my mind that if the illegal shift penalty was not called, that play would have held up.

I just said the exact same thing this morning. Thank God or else it would have been a huge boost to them.

[Dfence4champs2052]

1. A shame Torrey has allowed Steve Smith Sr. to come in and beast his #1 WR role from him. I still love what Torrey brings but he's the WR version of Joe Flacco as far as demeanor.

 

2. Secondary looked AWWWWFUUULLL. Period. Just trash. Why is Elam still being used as a FS in one safety formations??? It's just not what he does.

 

3. Taliferro was NICE! 91 yards...I liked what he did and the OL obviously was playing well...no sacks given up and nearly 100-yard rusher.

 

4. Injuries rear their ugly heads again......Pitta, Webb, Suggs didn't finish the game....Canty limped off and came back. Jimmy limped. I hope they can get healthy soon.

 

5. Another week another huge Jacoby drop........the pass catchers sans Smith Sr. and Juice looked bad.

[Purple Nurple]

I don't know but not touching that guy down was one of the stupidest plays I've seen.

I about had a stroke yelling at the tv at that one.

[arnie_uk]

For the most part, I agree, although clearly Jacoby is a superior kick returner. I think the notion that Deonte is a quality ST player is based mostly on potential and not actual production.

But for the most part, this falls in line with what I said all offseason. Jacoby is here to return kicks, and we're not paying him a ton, but its still a decent chunk of change for a guy who probably only gets 1-2 shots a game.

For what its worth... we also re-signed Jacoby either a day or two before Steve Smith was released, so its possible we basically signed Jacoby as a kick returner/last resort on offense, since at the time we had the same weak receiving core that we had a season ago. I believe it only took us a day or two to pounce on Steve Smith once he became available, and I think that changed things.

Had Smith signed before Jacoby, not 100% sure Jacoby would be here or if we would have offered him the same contract.

a better kick returner that lets almost every kick run out the back of the ez

[beanfigger]

I don't think they would have, mostly because if my interpretation of the penalty is correct, its a personal foul, which is a 15 yarder. As such, that penalty would be enforced over the five yard penalty that was called for the illegal shift.

There is very little doubt in my mind that if the illegal shift penalty was not called, that play would have held up.

I think it would have led to a conference after our coaches (hopefully) gave them a big protest from the sidelines. I would hope at least one of the refs would have remembered the rule, so I think there's a chance you're right, but I don't know for sure.

[rmcjacket23]

a better kick returner that lets almost every kick run out the back of the ez

As he should. Deonte would do the same thing, as would any responsible kick returner.

[Edgar]

Too much zone! Not enough press man.

particularly when cleveland's philosophy is to get first downs at the sticks and release the ball quickly. we were playing off on third and 6,7 as if we don't know what they like to do in those situations.

[rmcjacket23]

You sure it's not illegal formation?

Pulled this off a deadspin article this morning...

 

"The league office, referred to page 64 of the rule book, which states unsportsmanlike conduct is "Using entering substitutes, legally returning players, substitutes on sidelines, or withdrawn players to confuse opponents, including lingering by players leaving the field after being replaced by a substitute and an offensive player lining up or going in motion less than five yards from the sideline in front of his team's designated bench area. However, an offensive player is permitted to line up less than five yards from the sidelines on the same side as his team's player bench, provided he is not in front of the designated bench area."

 

Based on my understanding, it would have fallen under an Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty, which is a 15 yard penalty.

[beanfigger]

Haloti Ngata leads the team in INTs. This is a problem. No turnovers forced in 2 out of 3 games. Can't get off the field on third down to try and help an offense attempting to find a rhythm (every time I think they have it, they prove me wrong). The offense is average right now, but looks like it will improve, except for the loss of Pitta (crusher). The defense is slightly above average at this point in terms of points allowed, but it looks like getting worse might happen before getting better on that side of the ball. Hopefully, we can reverse that trend against a couple less-than-stellar offenses from the NFC South in the coming few weeks. Right now, it just looks like the players are nervous and uncomfortable. They need some confidence.

[H8R]

Pulled this off a deadspin article this morning...

 

"The league office, referred to page 64 of the rule book, which states unsportsmanlike conduct is "Using entering substitutes, legally returning players, substitutes on sidelines, or withdrawn players to confuse opponents, including lingering by players leaving the field after being replaced by a substitute and an offensive player lining up or going in motion less than five yards from the sideline in front of his team's designated bench area. However, an offensive player is permitted to line up less than five yards from the sidelines on the same side as his team's player bench, provided he is not in front of the designated bench area."

 

Based on my understanding, it would have fallen under an Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty, which is a 15 yard penalty.

 

 

100 percent agree with your thoughts here.

[BmoreBird22]

Pulled this off a deadspin article this morning...

 

"The league office, referred to page 64 of the rule book, which states unsportsmanlike conduct is "Using entering substitutes, legally returning players, substitutes on sidelines, or withdrawn players to confuse opponents, including lingering by players leaving the field after being replaced by a substitute and an offensive player lining up or going in motion less than five yards from the sideline in front of his team's designated bench area. However, an offensive player is permitted to line up less than five yards from the sidelines on the same side as his team's player bench, provided he is not in front of the designated bench area."

 

Based on my understanding, it would have fallen under an Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty, which is a 15 yard penalty.

Sounds like you're right

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