Official Vent Thread: Who needs to walk home and who doesn't !

[1/28/01]

Feel like I need to say it again. Elam just plays stupid. Is he stupid?

[PolishRifle]

Flacco left a lot of open players on the field today.

Torrey is a horrible fit for this offense. Poor route running skills and average hands at best. Not a fit for this scheme

 

I feel like those are things, that will get better in time. It's the 3rd week in a brand new offense and we are moving the ball pretty well against some decent defenses. I wasn't expecting us to really get going on offense until the Bucs game, anyway and the speedy progress is a huge relief.

The defense on the other hand has no reason to be this horrible. All the FA moves and draft picks, that we spend and they still leave much to be desired. At this point, I feel like joining the Pees haters.

[ravensdfan]

Feel like I need to say it again. Elam just plays stupid. Is he stupid?

 

I don't know but not touching that guy down was one of the stupidest plays I've seen.

[BMORE21]

i said a while ago that jacoby needs to walk and lets play deonte at KR and PR... Also, how long will it be before T brooks finally et a chance, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to notice every fs we put in is getting burned and or cant play coverage

[HoldingCall]

I feel like those are things, that will get better in time. It's the 3rd week in a brand new offense and we are moving the ball pretty well against some decent defenses. I wasn't expecting us to really get going on offense until the Bucs game, anyway and the speedy progress is a huge relief.

The defense on the other hand has no reason to be this horrible. All the FA moves and draft picks, that we spend and they still leave much to be desired. At this point, I feel like joining the Pees haters.

Fans are failing to give credit to the quality of teams we've played thus far or have yet to recognize them as good teams. And the fact that they've had injuries which didn't permit them to practice together. Things will get better unless injuries continue to affect practices. The offense will improve too unless injuries hamper practices. I am very relaxed at this point.

[757RavensFan]

After hearing the retired ref explain why the play was illegal for 3 different reasons, how in the heck the refs didn't call a penalty on it baffles me. As it was explained after the play, it was an illegal play bc;

1. No player on offense can be closer than 5 yards of the sideline. Johnny was probably less than a yard from being out.

2. All offensive players must have their shoulders square with the line of scrimmage when the ball is snapped. Manziel's were perpendicular when the ball was snapped.

3. Any play designed for the sole purpose of trickery is illegal. No explanation needed for this one.

So the refs missed all 3 of those violations and the Ravens def was saved bc West wasn't set on the play. Good job refs!

Oh and to think NO one from the Browns' coaching staff knew that was illegal at practice says a lot.

#BushLeaguePlay

[jaege]

That was a play worthy of a stinker like Belicheat. It is pathetic that a team has to resort to out right cheating in order to win. Worse that a coach thinks it okay to do so.

[Inqui]

To be fair, those rules are for a pretty obscure set of circumstances. Just like that "seven men inside the right-hand hashmark" or whatever it was between the Chiefs and Chargers that theoretically cost the Steelers a playoff spot.

 

I don't have a problem with the play (yeah I get that it's against the rules, but it was one play where I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt). It's good to see a bit of creativity going on.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

There were so many things illegal about the play that I think the refs just picked a random infraction to call.They probably knew those three rules were broken too.

[K-Dog]

Although you gotta admit it was fairly clever.

[berad]

2. All offensive players must have their shoulders square with the line of scrimmage when the ball is snapped. Manziel's were perpendicular when the ball was snapped.

I'm most interested in this rule because I've seen a lot of plays where a receiver or someone lines up out wide then motions in and *oh jk!* the offense snaps the ball, giving the receiver a head-start for either a quick pass or a hand-off. If that's really a rule, and enforced, then those plays should be dead in the water... and Percy Harvin's career, too.

[wademan2636]

The refs don't call that obvious penalty, but yet, they call "leaping" in the Bucs Colts game back in 04.  That penalty hadn't been called since 1939.  Refs are very inconsistent.

[Blackbirds Rule]

Webb looked very stiff out there early on. Elam might want to burn this game tape. It's ridiculous for a safety to fall for double moves on plays that he is not in man coverage and to not touch a downed opponent this isn't college football. This game looked like Elam vs the Vikings in the snow.

Both asa jackson and Chykie Brown can't cover shifty slot WRs. Oh how I miss Corey Graham. As bad as the Secondary played Brooks should be seeing PT.

Webb might have to go on IR. Asa wasn't that bad actually he was always right there and made sure tackles. Brown made the one bad play where he was there but gave up the first down by letting the receiver spin back towards the sidelines. I think we played a little too much zone and it burned us. It made Hoyer's job too easy. With Webb being banged up I see us bringing in another DB. We need to play more man, need a true 1 deep Safety, and some more intricate well timed  blitzing from our ILB's.

 

Also on the play where Crowell ran for the touchdown Darryl and our Safety have to make that play.

[Blackbirds Rule]

Does Torrey not want to be on this team anymore? Because he plays like it.

Torrey was PI'd pretty bad on what probably would've been a TD. he also was about 8-10 yards behind the DB when Joe got hit on his throw where he was intercepted. If he doesn't get hit I think Torrey has a deep TD pass. I think he'll come to life this season next week against Carolina.

[edreedfromtheu]

Of all the players Harbaugh sticks in his "doghouse," Elam has been afforded way too much room for mistakes.

The final straw had to be yesterday when he just completely quit on a play.  They throw a deep pass to a receiver that was wide open.  Receiver falls down... Elam just stops running, and turns around to find someone to blame instead of touching the receiver down.

This is just inexcusable lack of effort and awareness.  Defenders get beat.  That's fine.  But when you just quit on a play, and aren't aware of the game situation like the one yesterday where any little mistake could cost you in a division game... you have to be sat down.

Pierce got sat down for an entire game for having the first fumble of his career.  Elam should at LEAST be benched for a game.

And from what I've seen the last 2 years, I'd start looking for another safety immediately.

[1/28/01]

He's just not very smart on the field. Kind of slow, actually....and I don't mean foot speed.

[edreedfromtheu]

After hearing the retired ref explain why the play was illegal for 3 different reasons, how in the heck the refs didn't call a penalty on it baffles me. As it was explained after the play, it was an illegal play bc;

1. No player on offense can be closer than 5 yards of the sideline. Johnny was probably less than a yard from being out.

2. All offensive players must have their shoulders square with the line of scrimmage when the ball is snapped. Manziel's were perpendicular when the ball was snapped.

3. Any play designed for the sole purpose of trickery is illegal. No explanation needed for this one.

So the refs missed all 3 of those violations and the Ravens def was saved bc West wasn't set on the play. Good job refs!

Oh and to think NO one from the Browns' coaching staff knew that was illegal at practice says a lot.

#BushLeaguePlay

No, it's not bush league.  The Ravens got caught with their pants down.  It's what almost all offensive plays are designed to do.  Confuse the defense and misdirection.

The rules are what is bush league.  The goal is to win.  And the league tries to put on the illusion that teams across the league are even close to equal in talent.  So they don't want to see another team "embarass" another by using plays like this.  It's condescending to the players and the fans to even have rules like that.

But none of this matters because the Browns running back didn't line-up properly.

If you want to talk about flags that should have been thrown.... JIMMY SMITH should have been flagged.  He pushed Manziel out of bounds... that was fine.  But then he was frustrated he didn't actually knock Manziel over so he took ANOTHER shove when they were already out of bounds that knocked Manziel down.  It was a very stupid move, and he was very lucky they didn't flag that as a personal foul.  15 yards, automatic first down.

 

[edreedfromtheu]

That was a play worthy of a stinker like Belicheat. It is pathetic that a team has to resort to out right cheating in order to win. Worse that a coach thinks it okay to do so.

What's pathetic is Harbaugh's decision to go for it on 4th down when it's a 4 point game with over 10 minutes to go.  You kick a FG and make it a 1 point game where all you need is a FG.

What's pathetic is a secondary getting burned by MILES AUSTIN.

What's pathetic is Matt Elam watchin a receiver burn him deep, only to fall down.  And instead of touching the receiver down to stop the play... he turns around to try and find someone else on the defense to blame... allowing the receiver to get up and get a few more yards.

[rmcjacket23]

Of all the players Harbaugh sticks in his "doghouse," Elam has been afforded way too much room for mistakes.

The final straw had to be yesterday when he just completely quit on a play.  They throw a deep pass to a receiver that was wide open.  Receiver falls down... Elam just stops running, and turns around to find someone to blame instead of touching the receiver down.

This is just inexcusable lack of effort and awareness.  Defenders get beat.  That's fine.  But when you just quit on a play, and aren't aware of the game situation like the one yesterday where any little mistake could cost you in a division game... you have to be sat down.

Pierce got sat down for an entire game for having the first fumble of his career.  Elam should at LEAST be benched for a game.

And from what I've seen the last 2 years, I'd start looking for another safety immediately.

1. No reasonable person believes in the phantom Harbaugh "doghouse". That's just a fan generated myth that fans use to explain personnel decisions that they don't understand.

 

2. Benching him would imply that there is at least one other person on this roster capable of playing the position better, and from what I've seen, I don't see that person on this team. Easy for fans to scream for replacements, until they actually see that the replacements aren't any better.

 

3. If I were a betting man, I think the Ravens will transition towards Will Hill being the starting FS when he returns, and then will sort of let Stewart and Elam compete for the starting SS role. But as a caveat... the safety position has changed greatly in the past five years. Long gone are the days where we put an Ed Reed player 20 yards off the ball and just let him cover the deep middle. Teams don't throw deep nearly as much anymore, and putting a safety that far off the ball is basically like playing a man down on defense.

Any safety we put out there, regardless if they are a SS or FS, is going to need to be able to play good coverage, both in zone and man to man packages. As far as I see right now, that player doesn't exist on the active roster right now, and since they don't grow on trees, I see no reason to think that will change.

[dirtybird10]

After hearing the retired ref explain why the play was illegal for 3 different reasons, how in the heck the refs didn't call a penalty on it baffles me. As it was explained after the play, it was an illegal play bc;

1. No player on offense can be closer than 5 yards of the sideline. Johnny was probably less than a yard from being out.

2. All offensive players must have their shoulders square with the line of scrimmage when the ball is snapped. Manziel's were perpendicular when the ball was snapped.

3. Any play designed for the sole purpose of trickery is illegal. No explanation needed for this one.

So the refs missed all 3 of those violations and the Ravens def was saved bc West wasn't set on the play. Good job refs!

Oh and to think NO one from the Browns' coaching staff knew that was illegal at practice says a lot.

#BushLeaguePlay

 

LOL and I thought we got away with one there. That's funny. I wouldn't call it Bush league though. Just an attempt at deception, that was apparently not very well thought out.

[edreedfromtheu]

He's just not very smart on the field. Kind of slow, actually....and I don't mean foot speed.

And that doesn't sound like a "play like a Raven" type of player.  So I'm curious why he is getting so many chances when other players who have done nothing but produce in their limited opportunities either sit on the bench or even get let go...

Harbaugh's double standards.  Picking favorites.

[Blackbirds Rule]

And we haven't invested like we have in the defense either. Those points allowed are deceiving. Steelers are barely passable this year, the Browns made their own mistakes and the Bengals marched down the field with ease. It is simpler to cover the smaller field in the red zone.

 

The offense is facing a new OC and a new system. The defense should have this down by now. If you watched that game today, that defense is not even passable. We were lucky the Browns are still the Browns when it comes to giving games away.

 

Let's not act like we've faced Peyton, Brees, Brady and Rodgers. It was Andy freaking Dalton, Hoyer and Big Ben on a very bad day.

So every offense we played is flawed and every defense against us also is bad? Cincy has never been a good redzone team that's usually why they always lose on the road. The Browns should've beaten Pitt and they beat "Drew Brees" already. Brees is 1-2, Rodgers 1-2. The two of them haven'e been exactly lighting it up. Our defense is not healthy. Our investments on defense aren't playing. Jernigan (draft pick) out, Urban (draft pick) hurt/out, Brookw (draft pick) not ready yet, Webb (starter) hurt, Cody (back up DT) out, Ross (FA DB pick up) out for year. He would've been the nickle or 2nd DB depending on our injuries.

 

Alot of our investments on defense are hurt. We're relying on our starters to practically play the whole game with little to no rotations on our front DL. If we just had Jernigan and Urban we'd be able to generate more pressure to have our db's play less zone and cover for shorter periods. Since we don't have any solid rotation help along the dl we don't get a lot of pressure and we expose our 3rd and 4the db's along with our bad safeties. Hill will help out with the safeties and allow our D to play better as well as getting Jernigan back on the D-line.

[rmcjacket23]

So every offense we played is flawed and every defense against us also is bad? Cincy has never been a good redzone team that's usually why they always lose on the road. The Browns should've beaten Pitt and they beat "Drew Brees" already. Brees is 1-2, Rodgers 1-2. The two of them haven'e been exactly lighting it up. Our defense is not healthy. Our investments on defense aren't playing. Jernigan (draft pick) out, Urban (draft pick) hurt/out, Brookw (draft pick) not ready yet, Webb (starter) hurt, Cody (back up DT) out, Ross (FA DB pick up) out for year. He would've been the nickle or 2nd DB depending on our injuries.

 

Alot of our investments on defense are hurt. We're relying on our starters to practically play the whole game with little to no rotations on our front DL. If we just had Jernigan and Urban we'd be able to generate more pressure to have our db's play less zone and cover for shorter periods. Since we don't have any solid rotation help along the dl we don't get a lot of pressure and we expose our 3rd and 4the db's along with our bad safeties. Hill will help out with the safeties and allow our D to play better as well as getting Jernigan back on the D-line.

Here's what I'll say about the pass rush...

 

1. We never had a shot against Cincinnati, because they frankly had a perfect gameplan for our defensive line. They had three step drops often and had them ball out in 2-3 seconds every single time. Extremely difficult, and borderline impossible, to get pressure on the QB under those circumstances.

2. I thought the pressure against Pittsburgh was actually pretty decent, we just didn't always get all the way there. Pittsburgh, similarly, has an offense designed on quick passing.

3. Cleveland has arguably the best offensive line in football.

 

Not saying that we have been good getting penetration, because we haven't, but I don't think its panic mode time or anything like that.

 

I think the next 3-4 games will be a fairly decent barometer. Carolina, Indy, TB and Atlanta... four teams that most people would agree have below average offensive lines, particularly in pass protection. If we fail to get pressure in some of these games, then I would agree that there's perhaps some reason for concern. But I'm certainly not ready to annoint this team as a passrush-less unit right now.

[callahan09]

Very disappointed with Torrey and Jacoby, personally.

 

Flacco is 33.3% passing to these two guys.

 

He is 70.2% passing to everyone else.

 

Those 2 guys are also not even gaining us 4 yards per attempt when being targeted.

 

Neither one of those guys is doing Joe any favors when the ball comes their way.  Too often they aren't coming back to the ball, they aren't completing their route, they aren't extending their hands for the catch, they're letting balls bounce off their hands, etc.  If it isn't one issue, it's another, they just can't put it together and make plays.  It's definitely hurting this team, especially when they're getting a quarter of Joe's targets.  Drawing PI is about all Torrey seems good for anymore.

 

Stat splits when targeting Torrey/Jacoby vs Everyone Else:

 

Torrey/Jacoby

9/27, 105 Yards, 0 TD, 1 INT

33.3%, 3.9 Y/A, 30.6 QB Rating

 

Everyone Else

66/94, 623 Yards, 4 TD, 1 INT

70.2%, 6.6 Y/A, 98.0 QB Rating

[jazz1988]

Webb might have to go on IR. Asa wasn't that bad actually he was always right there and made sure tackles. Brown made the one bad play where he was there but gave up the first down by letting the receiver spin back towards the sidelines. I think we played a little too much zone and it burned us. It made Hoyer's job too easy. With Webb being banged up I see us bringing in another DB. We need to play more man, need a true 1 deep Safety, and some more intricate well timed  blitzing from our ILB's.

 

Also on the play where Crowell ran for the touchdown Darryl and our Safety have to make that play.

 

Sure tackler or not he was getting beat alot by Hawkins . No cornerback other than Jimmy Smith look good yesterday in my opinion and Asa Jackson look lost at times. We need a  better outside cornerback because Jackson is probably a better fit in the nickel  and I'm not sure when Ladarius Webb will be 100 percent healthy. 

[Runnin Raven]

 

Very disappointed with Torrey and Jacoby, personally.

 

Flacco is 33.3% passing to these two guys.

 

He is 70.2% passing to everyone else.

 

Those 2 guys are also not even gaining us 4 yards per attempt when being targeted.

 

Neither one of those guys is doing Joe any favors when the ball comes their way.  Too often they aren't coming back to the ball, they aren't completing their route, they aren't extending their hands for the catch, they're letting balls bounce off their hands, etc.  If it isn't one issue, it's another, they just can't put it together and make plays.  It's definitely hurting this team, especially when they're getting a quarter of Joe's targets.  Drawing PI is about all Torrey seems good for anymore.

 

Stat splits when targeting Torrey/Jacoby vs Everyone Else:

 

Torrey/Jacoby

9/27, 105 Yards, 0 TD, 1 INT

33.3%, 3.9 Y/A, 30.6 QB Rating

 

Everyone Else

66/94, 623 Yards, 4 TD, 1 INT

70.2%, 6.6 Y/A, 98.0 QB Rating

 

Sounds about right.  Somebody please let me know what Jacoby Jones does for this team that Deonte can't.

[rmcjacket23]

Sounds about right.  Somebody please let me know what Jacoby Jones does for this team that Deonte can't.

For the most part, I agree, although clearly Jacoby is a superior kick returner. I think the notion that Deonte is a quality ST player is based mostly on potential and not actual production.

 

But for the most part, this falls in line with what I said all offseason. Jacoby is here to return kicks, and we're not paying him a ton, but its still a decent chunk of change for a guy who probably only gets 1-2 shots a game.

 

For what its worth... we also re-signed Jacoby either a day or two before Steve Smith was released, so its possible we basically signed Jacoby as a kick returner/last resort on offense, since at the time we had the same weak receiving core that we had a season ago. I believe it only took us a day or two to pounce on Steve Smith once he became available, and I think that changed things.

 

Had Smith signed before Jacoby, not 100% sure Jacoby would be here or if we would have offered him the same contract.

[Blackbirds Rule]

Here's what I'll say about the pass rush...

 

1. We never had a shot against Cincinnati, because they frankly had a perfect gameplan for our defensive line. They had three step drops often and had them ball out in 2-3 seconds every single time. Extremely difficult, and borderline impossible, to get pressure on the QB under those circumstances.

2. I thought the pressure against Pittsburgh was actually pretty decent, we just didn't always get all the way there. Pittsburgh, similarly, has an offense designed on quick passing.

3. Cleveland has arguably the best offensive line in football.

 

Not saying that we have been good getting penetration, because we haven't, but I don't think its panic mode time or anything like that.

 

I think the next 3-4 games will be a fairly decent barometer. Carolina, Indy, TB and Atlanta... four teams that most people would agree have below average offensive lines, particularly in pass protection. If we fail to get pressure in some of these games, then I would agree that there's perhaps some reason for concern. But I'm certainly not ready to annoint this team as a passrush-less unit right now.

I agree with that. i also think with us lacking in depth along the defensive line is also causing a lack of pass rush. In the 4th our D line is a little tired. if we had Jernigan he could spell Canty more and give us some extra push in the middle. We should definitely get to Cam next week. The only way we wont is if we keep playing that soft zone which gives the QB easy completions.

[pep_meister]

For the most part, I agree, although clearly Jacoby is a superior kick returner. I think the notion that Deonte is a quality ST player is based mostly on potential and not actual production.

 

But for the most part, this falls in line with what I said all offseason. Jacoby is here to return kicks, and we're not paying him a ton, but its still a decent chunk of change for a guy who probably only gets 1-2 shots a game.

 

For what its worth... we also re-signed Jacoby either a day or two before Steve Smith was released, so its possible we basically signed Jacoby as a kick returner/last resort on offense, since at the time we had the same weak receiving core that we had a season ago. I believe it only took us a day or two to pounce on Steve Smith once he became available, and I think that changed things.

 

Had Smith signed before Jacoby, not 100% sure Jacoby would be here or if we would have offered him the same contract.

no actual production? did you not watch the pre season games? those are against full time special teams units. jacoby is a burner that can't catch a cold... but guess what? deonte can run faster... a good bit faster.

[callahan09]

The sad thing is that Torrey + Jacoby are currently on pace to *combine* for these numbers on the season:

48 Catches, 560 Yards, and no TDs.

 

Who would have thought?  Over the last 2 years, they combined for an average per season of:

90.5 Catches, 1422 Yards, and 7.5 TDs.

 

They are WAY off that pace to this point.  And they both tend to start hot and disappear as the season progresses.  First half of last season, they combined for the following numbers:

49 Catches for 832 Yards

 

In the 2nd half of the season, they combined for the following numbers:

53 Catches for 751 Yards

 

But keep in mind that Jacoby missed 5 games in the first half of the season and was still not playing to his full strength in his first game back, so it's practically just 2 games that he played in the first half, versus a full strength second half of the campaign.

 

So seeing that dropoff in yards per catch and yards overall when it's basically like comparing 10 games vs 16 games is pretty ugly.