courtney upshaw making the leap

[Fries]

No it hasn't. He still doesn't use his hands very well. He got that sack because he was clean. He isn't a bad player and nobody said he is. And no, it wasn't a sack because he led with his helmet. It would've been a sack had he not lowered his helmet. If you want to complain, complain about his technique but don't complain on the referee on that flag.

I think Upshaw does well when he's an interior rusher because he seems to do better against guards and centers than tackles. That's just playing him to his strength. He's a stronger rusher who uses his strength.

Uhh... the forced fumble in the superbowl comes to mind. And seems to me you need to watch the tape again. His head was up... the crown didnt touch. He is a young player who needs to work on technique.

[Mt. Crushmore]

Versatility player who does the dirty work.  To have an effective 3-4 defense, you need a player like this at OLB.

[arnie_uk]

Versatility player who does the dirty work. To have an effective 3-4 defense, you need a player like this at OLB.

I think we all agree with this. Just for pick 34? We'd like more pass rush. But i do agree he's a key cog in this unit

[Mt. Crushmore]

I think we all agree with this. Just for pick 34? We'd like more pass rush. But i do agree he's a key cog in this unit

 

Agree

[GrimCoconut]

Uhh... the forced fumble in the superbowl comes to mind. And seems to me you need to watch the tape again. His head was up... the crown didnt touch. He is a young player who needs to work on technique.

Never mentioned anything about not forcing fumbles. I said he doesn't have great use of hands, which he doesn't.

I'll watch it again but the call seemed like a good call to me. Not sure it was "roughing the passer" but it looked like a personal foul. Not that I agree with it being a foul but those are the rules as stupid as they are.

[JoeyFlex5]

What I'm saying, is just to lose fat, mainly in his gut. I don't want him to lose that strength, but if he could cut fat he could be a great player.

 

We do have to start thinking about the future of this defense. Suggs and Doom are aging. Upshaw could still be here in five years. Does he replace them?

its not about him replacing anyone, we will address our pass rush before its too late, we see ozzie do it all the time, he addresses a position that has us originally scratching our head, then suddenly a few years down the road, we desperately need that same player to step up and contribute. this defense will struggle without upshaw, honestly pit probably moves the ball at will by abusing our left side with bell and blount, so even after doom and sizzle are gone, upshaw will still be needed to fill his current role, if he expands his game to be a good pass rusher then thats awesome, i just dont see it happening and i dont see much need for it

[JoeyFlex5]

Never mentioned anything about not forcing fumbles. I said he doesn't have great use of hands, which he doesn't.

I'll watch it again but the call seemed like a good call to me. Not sure it was "roughing the passer" but it looked like a personal foul. Not that I agree with it being a foul but those are the rules as stupid as they are.

leading with the crown of the helmet isnt supposed to matter unless he makes contact with the other players helmet i believe

[arnie_uk]

leading with the crown of the helmet isnt supposed to matter unless he makes contact with the other players helmet i believe

diff on a qb i think.

[flynismo]

I like him a lot, always have, but he is certainly not (yet) an upgrade over JJ. JJ was better than him in nearly every aspect, especially coverage

[jdynamite]

care to elaborate? im just wondering why other 3-4 teams couldnt use a versatile and consistent(injuries aside) to his full advantage.

I think what he may mean is that most 3-4 teams search for 3-4 outside rushers before edge setters. And some teams might not use Upshaw to his strengths, they might just pick him up have him sprinting up field every down. Rather than moving him around in different schemes.

Example: Upshaw started most if not all games for us 2 years ago, played very well as an edge setter but did not get sacks, Kruger played mostly as a pass rush specialist had good year sack wise and got paid. Upshaw more than likely would not receive the FA attention that Kruger got.

Upshaw could be similar to Amhad Brooks for the 49ers he does a lot of things good, but is often overshadowed because he doesn't do one thing great.

[Tank 92]

Uhh... the forced fumble in the superbowl comes to mind. And seems to me you need to watch the tape again. His head was up... the crown didnt touch. He is a young player who needs to work on technique.

Gotta agree with this. His head was up as far as possible and he hit Ben with the front of his helmet and face mask. Regardless, I'm not sure how Hochule could have seen it either way as he was behind Ben. He just assumed.

Upshaw will only get better with time.

[Gtown Purple]

I like his versatility and gives us depth at olb. Doom and Suggs won't play forever.

[BmoreBird22]

My only complaint is people are asking for this complete, excellent pass rusher who will be a double digit sack guy, but those guys don't actually last that long in the draft in today's passing league. Look at guys like Mario Williams, Jadaveon Clowney, and Anthony Barr going top 10. In that 2012 draft, literally every single one of the "top" pass rushers went in the first round, and the Ravens would not have had a single shot at any of them based on their original draft spot. 

Upshaw is extremely good at what he does. He sets the edge well, plays well enough in coverage, makes the calls for the defense, and is able to play just about every position on the defensive front. That's a lot to get out of a second round pick. Sure, he hasn't developed into a double digit pass rusher, but if he were a better pass rusher in the draft, he's probably a top 15 to 20 pick. His game is really well rounded, except for the pass rush. 

 

You're not going to find a ton of players at outside linebacker who do what he does at pick 35 in the draft

[kassaiscool]

Hes a strong man, I constantly see him bulling whoever is trying to block him in the run game. I thought he would be bad in pass coverage, because of his size but from day he has been solid in coverage. I would like to see him improve in attacking the QB as a pass rusher though. Hes a very solid player for the Ravens.

[GrimCoconut]

My only complaint is people are asking for this complete, excellent pass rusher who will be a double digit sack guy, but those guys don't actually last that long in the draft in today's passing league. Look at guys like Mario Williams, Jadaveon Clowney, and Anthony Barr going top 10. In that 2012 draft, literally every single one of the "top" pass rushers went in the first round, and the Ravens would not have had a single shot at any of them based on their original draft spot.

Upshaw is extremely good at what he does. He sets the edge well, plays well enough in coverage, makes the calls for the defense, and is able to play just about every position on the defensive front. That's a lot to get out of a second round pick. Sure, he hasn't developed into a double digit pass rusher, but if he were a better pass rusher in the draft, he's probably a top 15 to 20 pick. His game is really well rounded, except for the pass rush.

You're not going to find a ton of players at outside linebacker who do what he does at pick 35 in the draft

That's a really fair argument. No doubt he didn't have those skills coming out but I'm sure the coaches and Ozzie thought we could get more pass rush out of him. You know?

One thing I do believe is I think Upshaw would make an excellent 4-3 OLB playing SAM. He would be deadly in that system, I believe. First of all, you could play him at OLB or bring him up to the DL and be a fifth DL to stop the run and get a little pressure. To me that seems like his best fit. It would also likely allow him to get to the QB without having to use his hands, letting him use his strength and speed to get to the QB while the DL occupies blocks. It would also give us better pass coverage.

[BmoreBird22]

That's a really fair argument. No doubt he didn't have those skills coming out but I'm sure the coaches and Ozzie thought we could get more pass rush out of him. You know?

One thing I do believe is I think Upshaw would make an excellent 4-3 OLB playing SAM. He would be deadly in that system, I believe. First of all, you could play him at OLB or bring him up to the DL and be a fifth DL to stop the run and get a little pressure. To me that seems like his best fit. It would also likely allow him to get to the QB without having to use his hands, letting him use his strength and speed to get to the QB while the DL occupies blocks. It would also give us better pass coverage.

I want more out of him as well, but I won't call him a bad pick based on draft status. As the Raven pointed out, he could probably be a much better pass rusher if he slimmed down 10-15 pounds. He doesn't have a wide array of pass rush moves and isn't particularly great with his hands, so getting faster while still keeping his strength would mitigate the need for a wide array of pass rush moves.

I'm sure he would be an excellent SAM in the 4-3. I have had similar thoughts about his abilities in that scheme when there was discussion about whether or not the Ravens should make that switch. He's also got the versatility to play DT or DE in a 4-3, so he's a jack of all trades

[GrimCoconut]

I want more out of him as well, but I won't call him a bad pick based on draft status. As the Raven pointed out, he could probably be a much better pass rusher if he slimmed down 10-15 pounds. He doesn't have a wide array of pass rush moves and isn't particularly great with his hands, so getting faster while still keeping his strength would mitigate the need for a wide array of pass rush moves.

I'm sure he would be an excellent SAM in the 4-3. I have had similar thoughts about his abilities in that scheme when there was discussion about whether or not the Ravens should make that switch. He's also got the versatility to play DT or DE in a 4-3, so he's a jack of all trades

Yeah that's why I really like him as a 4-3 LB playing the strong side. You could crowd the LOS with him and have Dumervil and Suggs at DE with Williams and say Jernigan at DT. I'm thinking something like this:

Suggs | Williams | Jernigan | Dumervil

Upshaw | Mosley | Brown

That would be the ideal, as you'd have the speedy Dumervil working against the LT and it would mitigate his weakness on the right side against the run. Then you would have Suggs working against the typically inferior RT in pass protection. You could then blitz with Upshaw or use him to jam the TE. We've done this already in the game it's just not common.

We could then do this on obvious run plays to stuff on short yardage:

Suggs | Upshaw | Williams | Jernigan | Dumervil

Elam | Mosley | Brown

For what it's worth, I like Upshaw more than the other Alabama LB everyone wanted us to get. I was never a fan of Hightower.

[BmoreBird22]

Yeah that's why I really like him as a 4-3 LB playing the strong side. You could crowd the LOS with him and have Dumervil and Suggs at DE with Williams and say Jernigan at DT. I'm thinking something like this:

Suggs | Williams | Jernigan | Dumervil

Upshaw | Mosley | Brown

That would be the ideal, as you'd have the speedy Dumervil working against the LT and it would mitigate his weakness on the right side against the run. Then you would have Suggs working against the typically inferior RT in pass protection. You could then blitz with Upshaw or use him to jam the TE. We've done this already in the game it's just not common.

We could then do this on obvious run plays to stuff on short yardage:

Suggs | Upshaw | Williams | Jernigan | Dumervil

Elam | Mosley | Brown

For what it's worth, I like Upshaw more than the other Alabama LB everyone wanted us to get. I was never a fan of Hightower.

I'm guessing you're potentially looking at this for next year with no Ngata and no Smith?

I like the idea of the 4-3 for the Ravens and don't see a reason not to play the defense in that scheme other than it kinda takes away from the whole "hybrid" defense

[JoeyFlex5]

if we played a standard base 4-3, i have to say upshaw would probably outshine most other players on this defense, in the rare case he wuld get to pass rush in that lineup, he would likely be the guy taking on the RB, with a chip from the tight end, which isnt gonna do much to a guy as strong as he is, im taking upshaw 100% of the time there. i dont believe our personnel is quite there yet for a 4-3 though and i dont think our defense would be as good, but yea good point about the 4-3

[GrimCoconut]

I'm guessing you're potentially looking at this for next year with no Ngata and no Smith?

I like the idea of the 4-3 for the Ravens and don't see a reason not to play the defense in that scheme other than it kinda takes away from the whole "hybrid" defense

Maybe next year maybe not. Not sure Ngata goes anywhere. But even if he stays you can put Ngata in there instead of Jernigan and have the same results.

[acranfor]

Yeah that's why I really like him as a 4-3 LB playing the strong side. You could crowd the LOS with him and have Dumervil and Suggs at DE with Williams and say Jernigan at DT. I'm thinking something like this:

Suggs | Williams | Jernigan | Dumervil

Upshaw | Mosley | Brown

That would be the ideal, as you'd have the speedy Dumervil working against the LT and it would mitigate his weakness on the right side against the run. Then you would have Suggs working against the typically inferior RT in pass protection. You could then blitz with Upshaw or use him to jam the TE. We've done this already in the game it's just not common.

We could then do this on obvious run plays to stuff on short yardage:

Suggs | Upshaw | Williams | Jernigan | Dumervil

Elam | Mosley | Brown

For what it's worth, I like Upshaw more than the other Alabama LB everyone wanted us to get. I was never a fan of Hightower.

We already play a 4-3 shifted to the weak side (4-3 Under). The D line has 4-3 responsibilities - not 3-4 responsibilities. So you are just saying that Dumervil should be playing more DE exclusively and less OLB? And Suggs should be inserted for Canty at LDE instead of RDE?

 

I think formation is irrelevant. It is all about getting your top talent on the field as much as possible.

[GrimCoconut]

We already play a 4-3 shifted to the weak side (4-3 Under). The D line has 4-3 responsibilities - not 3-4 responsibilities. So you are just saying that Dumervil should be playing more DE exclusively and less OLB? And Suggs should be inserted for Canty at LDE instead of RDE?

I think formation is irrelevant. It is all about getting your top talent on the field as much as possible.

Pretty much. We do run a lot of 4-3. I would just like to see Dumervil against the LT with Suggs on the right a bit more with Upshaw playing everywhere with Canty out there as little as possible.

[The Raven]

We already play a 4-3 shifted to the weak side (4-3 Under). The D line has 4-3 responsibilities - not 3-4 responsibilities. So you are just saying that Dumervil should be playing more DE exclusively and less OLB? And Suggs should be inserted for Canty at LDE instead of RDE?

 

I think formation is irrelevant. It is all about getting your top talent on the field as much as possible.

 

Yeah, we already play a 4-3 under. And out of that look, we already use Upshaw the way team use a 4-3 sam. 

 

Read an article posted here that went in depth with our scheme. We basically have a 3-4 alignment with 4-3 responsibilities, except we sometimes ask the nose to two gap. Fairly complex. 

[acranfor]

Pretty much. We do run a lot of 4-3. I would just like to see Dumervil against the LT with Suggs on the right a bit more with Upshaw playing everywhere with Canty out there as little as possible.

Yes agree with Canty out there as little as possible. Would rather see it like this though:

 

               McPhee (5) | Williams (1) | Ngata (3) | Suggs (5)

Upshaw (7)

                              Smith               Mosley

 

We need McPhee to become more of a complete DE I think to have this happen - in other words be better against the run. I think Dumervil can play a number of positions, but is most effective as a nickel 5tech DE in a 4 man front. In our base 4-3 under, Upshaw and Suggs both have coverage responsibilities sometimes, which I think limits Dumervil. However, according to last game, Dumervil had far more snaps than Upshaw...

 

I guess this makes sense since we play a lot of nickel.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

Don't care how we use Upshaw, just as long as we get the most out of his talents. So tired of a square peg round hole approach, don't want to see that from these coaches like we have from previous coaches (unless injuries force their hand).

[GrimCoconut]

Uhh... the forced fumble in the superbowl comes to mind. And seems to me you need to watch the tape again. His head was up... the crown didnt touch. He is a young player who needs to work on technique.

I went back and watched the play again in slow motion. I have to agree with you on this. It didn't deserve a penalty. If you look at the hit, Upshaw's head hits Ben's arm and the ball, not his chest, head, etc. 

[Ravens1991]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/16/ben-roethlisberger-still-very-sore-after-courtney-upshaw-hit/

 

Love to hear this

I hate to give Big Ben props but it is impressive that he held onto the football during that hit. Upshaws helmet hit his arm directly.

[beasy2487]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/16/ben-roethlisberger-still-very-sore-after-courtney-upshaw-hit/

 

Love to hear this

I hate to give Big Ben props but it is impressive that he held onto the football during that hit. Upshaws helmet hit his arm directly.

 

This goes to my point in another thread regarding how imposing your will physically can have a major impact on a game. This hit happened in the first quarter of a game last Thursday and Ben still feels it. Even with adrenaline, if you think that's not the reason he was throwing those ducks in the 3rd and 4th quarter of the game you're of your mind. If the Ravens play like that all season, come the last quarter of the season we'll be running teams off the field. The key is to get there and stay healthy.

[JO_75]

I like his versatility and gives us depth at olb. Doom and Suggs won't play forever.

 

 

Plus Doom has a cap hit of $6.3 million next year, but it comes with $7M in dead money if we released him so there goes my idea of extending Upshaw with a nice contract and letting Doom go. 

 

Hopefully we'll be able to keep him, otherwise we have him through 2015 so let's just enjoy watching him.

[GrimCoconut]

Plus Doom has a cap hit of $6.3 million next year, but it comes with $7M in dead money if we released him so there goes my idea of extending Upshaw with a nice contract and letting Doom go. 

 

Hopefully we'll be able to keep him, otherwise we have him through 2015 so let's just enjoy watching him.

I think Suggs and Dumervil play out their contracts. Every year the cap increases. If it increases another 10M or so next year, it really won't matter. Even if it is 5M increase it won't matter. I think we'll be able to retain Upshaw, maybe for around 6M a year, depending on inflation. I see that being equivalent to 4M a year as it is right now. 

 

We will have major free agents in 2016, though. Jimmy Smith, Justin Tucker, DeAngelo Tyson, Bernard Pierce, Kelechi Osemele, Haloti Ngata, Chris Canty, Marshal Yanda are all free agents that year. It will not be easy to retain all of them. If I had to guess, Pierce, Ngata, Canty and perhaps Yanda walk and we retain Smith, Tucker, Osemele with pretty nice money and retain Tyson on a decent deal unless he has an Arthur Jones year.