The Missing Pass-Rush

[DomMcRaven]

The fact that he has McPhee, Doom, Suggs, and Ngata on the front four should be enough to just rush four. Having a crappy secondary doesn't help, either.

I could only imagine what a healthy Jernigan and Urban would have done for us as well. 

[BmoreBird22]

I could only imagine what a healthy Jernigan and Urban would have done for us as well. 

When Jernigan gets healthy, I think he'll provide a more solid pass rush than Ngata. Ngata just doesn't seem to get much penetration, just eats up space

[DomMcRaven]

When Jernigan gets healthy, I think he'll provide a more solid pass rush than Ngata. Ngata just doesn't seem to get much penetration, just eats up space

And we still have BMW: Brandon "Monster" Williams.

[BmoreBird22]

And we still have BMW: Brandon "Monster" Williams.

He doesn't seem to get in too much on pass rushing plays. Just run downs

[Inqui]

Ravensdfan, going back to the days of Rex Ryan blitz packages would be great, but there's a couple things you need to understand:

 

.....

 

Everyone needs to relax.  There's a lot of  season left and we're in Tampa next week which is almost as good as a bye.  The defense gets Will Hill back after next week in Tampa.  Jernigan should be back in a about 2 weeks.  Canty in probably 2 weeks if the infection clears up sooner than later.

I don't have anything to add, but just wanted to say this was a good post.

 

Except for the bit about Tampa being almost a bye. We should all know the Ravens don't do gimmies.

[ravensdfan]

Ravensdfan, going back to the days of Rex Ryan blitz packages would be great, but there's a couple things you need to understand:

 

Since 2008 the league has been getting more pass happy and doesn't reward teams with hard hitting defenses.  Big plays (20+ yards took a big jump between 07 & 08.  I remember all the blitzing Ryan did and he ALWAYS gave up big passing plays in the end zone.

 

Total yards and ranks mean little anymore. The 2012 Steelers were #1 against the rush and pass. What did it get them?  An 8-8 record and they were lucky to earn 8 wins.  

 

Pees isn't working with 5 Pro Bowlers the way Rex was.  Maybe we get there again, but its unlikely. If they did it woould be short lived and being too costly in salary cap.

 

The QBs rarely get a ton of time against the Ravens.  They're mostly just dropping back quick 3 &  5 steps to get rid of the ball for short yardage.  You can't blitz that scheme like Rex did if you do with our current DBs we'll get owned more times than not.  Rex had 2 Pro Bowlers (a a future HOFer) for his entire tenure back there, not to mention 2 to 3 more in the front 7.

 

It's not formulaic.  Its a balancing act that is adjusted for each game depending on opponent weakness and defensive injuries.  No passing game?  Stack the box and let the DBs go one on one.  Strong passing game?  Then run more nickle packages.  

 

The pass happy league does not reward yardage-stingy defenses.  Pass yards allowed is no longer a true measure of success.  Case in point: the 2012 Steelers D ranked first in both passing and rushing yards allowed and ended their season 8-8 and they were lucky to earn 8 wins.  The better metrics are 

 

Again, 29th means nothing.  You're correct about getting pressure, but that's part of the balancing act that Pees is managing.   He's not as good with it as Pagano was.  In fact Pagano was a greater DC than Rex imo b/c Rex gambled a lot.  Pagano gambled less and took more calculated risks.  Pagano allowed the fewest big plays of all DCs since Rex under the new pass-happy rules with lesser overall talent.

 

The way its working now is pressure up front to take pressure off the DBs at least until they develop more.  The DL has been battling injuries which disrupts their defensive game plan.  As these players return so will the pass rush - pressure, sacks, turnovers. 

 

Everyone needs to relax.  There's a lot of  season left and we're in Tampa next week which is almost as good as a bye.  The defense gets Will Hill back after next week in Tampa.  Jernigan should be back in a about 2 weeks.  Canty in probably 2 weeks if the infection clears up sooner than later.

 

Yeah I liked Pagano more than Rex. Rex gambled a lot and it paid off due to the talent we had at the time. Pagano was more a creative mind.

 

29th is a metric in the fact that our defense keeps themselves on the field too long - 20 play drives, 8 and 9 mins drives , etc - my issue with Pees is his complete lack of creativity when it comes to creating pressure. He is way tooc conservative and only becomes aggressive in any faction of the game if we have a huge lead. Sometimes, you have to take those chances to get the win and sometimes it has cost us.

[ravensdfan]

Before the Colts game, which is going to clearly affect the average TOP for the Ravens, they led that battle about 32:28, so there's that. 

 

Pees actually is known for complex coverage schemes

 

No you don't get to throw out the Colts game. The defense allowed a 20 play drive - 20 plays! That is on them, not the offense.

 

Do we then throw out the game where the offense ground it out? It all counts, you don't get to cherry pick.

[Ravens1991]

Does anyone have a feeling that Pees isn't blitzing enough because he doesn't trust our secondary just as much as we do? I mean take a look at Rex. Though he blitzes, he doesn't have the same secondary he once had. I don't know, just something I was thinking about.

He may not trust his CB but in 2008 Rex showed you can still bring the heat and still have a successful defense. Our CBs were Fabian Washington, Samari Rolle, Frank Walker, Corey Ivy, and Evan Oglesby. Against the Steelers in the playoffs through injuries Frank Walker was our #1 CB and we still brought the heat. I know we did have Reed back there though but other then that we were as talented or better secondary now.

 

[berad]

No you don't get to throw out the Colts game. The defense allowed a 20 play drive - 20 plays! That is on them, not the offense.

 

Do we then throw out the game where the offense ground it out? It all counts, you don't get to cherry pick.

We've talked about this before but as of Week 5, which includes the Colts game

Ravens offense: 2:53 TOP per drive, 12th best in the league

Ravens defense: 3:05 TOP per drive, 29th best in the league

All this according to football outsiders

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestats

[BmoreBird22]

No you don't get to throw out the Colts game. The defense allowed a 20 play drive - 20 plays! That is on them, not the offense.

 

Do we then throw out the game where the offense ground it out? It all counts, you don't get to cherry pick.

No, you don't throw it out the window, but the Colts game had as much to do with the Ravens being 1 for 11 on third down as it did with the defense not getting off the field, in terms of TOP.

I was simply saying the defense didn't have too much trouble before a lopsided game

[BmoreBird22]

We've talked about this before but as of Week 5, which includes the Colts gameRavens offense: 2:53 TOP per drive, 12th best in the leagueRavens defense: 3:05 TOP per drive, 29th best in the leagueAll this according to football outsidershttp://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestats

They don't have to week by week breakdown?

[jazz1988]

I do. That's a big part of why there isn't more blitzing. People are easily getting open and QBs can let go off it quickly.

 

He wasn't blitzing that much even when our secondary   had Ladarius Webb, Correy Graham and Jimmy Smith last year. The only time I remember Pees blitzing more was in 2012 but he kinda had to because  Suggs was out for awhile and we didn't have any consistent pass rusher to get to the quarterback.

[3-4ravdef509]

Our pass rush is fine. We can't afford to send more than five rushers too often because of the secondary issues, and when I'm watching the games we're usually only a second or so away from a sack at worst. The pass rush gets wore down after the defense is on the field for almost 40 minutes! Imagine that?

[arnie_uk]

They don't have to week by week breakdown?

what difference does it make?being 29th in the league at anything is awful

[BmoreBird22]

what difference does it make?being 29th in the league at anything is awful

Because the Colts game really skewed it

[arnie_uk]

Because the Colts game really skewed it

it really skewed the offense one aswell. You can't just cherry pick. A 5 game game sample is large enough when it's almost a third of the season. We haven't been able to get of the field until they march to our redzone.

Redzone defense is great, no one is arguing that, but it's just not on how teams seem to walk up and down on us unail then. No one can out their finger on why. Does he play more conservative, softer coverage? Less pressure? Do the players play with a bit more intensity when they no they HAVE to stop them now or they will score. Or is it just as simple as there Is no room to get behind, and if that's the case well we need to do a complete overhaul of our secondary because that shouldn't be acceptable.

[ravensdfan]

it really skewed the offense one aswell. You can't just cherry pick. A 5 game game sample is large enough when it's almost a third of the season. We haven't been able to get of the field until they march to our redzone.

Redzone defense is great, no one is arguing that, but it's just not on how teams seem to walk up and down on us unail then. No one can out their finger on why. Does he play more conservative, softer coverage? Less pressure? Do the players play with a bit more intensity when they no they HAVE to stop them now or they will score. Or is it just as simple as there Is no room to get behind, and if that's the case well we need to do a complete overhaul of our secondary because that shouldn't be acceptable.

 

Exactly. He plays that soft zone more often in the middle of the field - is that the reason though? Or is it because our secondary can't cover that large a field. Those are things only the coaches can answer like you said - but definitely if it is all on the players like BMore wants us to believe - then everyone is crap and must go.

[TDubbs]

Bend don't break ... thats what we do under Pee's. If anyone saw Sizzle on Wired (not even as close to as good as Behind the Bench was btw) you'd have heard him saying "We'll give them those short completions and check downs all day, just don't let them get behind us" ... That sums it up really. 

[BmoreBird22]

Exactly. He plays that soft zone more often in the middle of the field - is that the reason though? Or is it because our secondary can't cover that large a field. Those are things only the coaches can answer like you said - but definitely if it is all on the players like BMore wants us to believe - then everyone is crap and must go.

I went back and watched the Colts game, again, and he actually played tons of man.

[BmoreBird22]

it really skewed the offense one aswell. You can't just cherry pick. A 5 game game sample is large enough when it's almost a third of the season. We haven't been able to get of the field until they march to our redzone.

Redzone defense is great, no one is arguing that, but it's just not on how teams seem to walk up and down on us unail then. No one can out their finger on why. Does he play more conservative, softer coverage? Less pressure? Do the players play with a bit more intensity when they no they HAVE to stop them now or they will score. Or is it just as simple as there Is no room to get behind, and if that's the case well we need to do a complete overhaul of our secondary because that shouldn't be acceptable.

It is almost as simple as the field gets shortened and the play calling becomes more limited. Pees played a lot of man coverage on Sunday against the Colts, but Webb and Asa were giving massive cushions and it really allowed the Colts receivers to make easy completions. You'll notice that around the goal line, the Ravens do play more zone because it crowds the passing lanes and makes it far more difficult to make a good throw. That's why the Ravens don't often allow scores.

[stampedehero]

Given Suggs extension and Dumervil's current contract, they are going to be on this team for the foreseeable future. We are definitely needing them to step up and play like true leaders on this defense. 

Although it was a September post your view is relevent as we enter the 6th game. Since Suggs and Dumervil are going to be the faces on Mt. Rushmore then they should act the part.  The Carolina game was aok.  Colts proved their down time is real .    

[arnie_uk]

It is almost as simple as the field gets shortened and the play calling becomes more limited. Pees played a lot of man coverage on Sunday against the Colts, but Webb and Asa were giving massive cushions and it really allowed the Colts receivers to make easy completions. You'll notice that around the goal line, the Ravens do play more zone because it crowds the passing lanes and makes it far more difficult to make a good throw. That's why the Ravens don't often allow scores.

the massive cushions are coming from the coach though. A player just simply doesn't decide to play soft or bump coverage. The playing soft, allowing easy completions, and ultimately third and shorts that get converted mean long drives. Yes it's pees style, but frankly it's not good enough until we get to the redzone.

At the rate we are going, we'd be better playing prevent, all 11 guys sit at the 30 yard line, and let them get there in one play, then shut up shop. Theyll get there anyway.

[stampedehero]

It is almost as simple as the field gets shortened and the play calling becomes more limited. Pees played a lot of man coverage on Sunday against the Colts, but Webb and Asa were giving massive cushions and it really allowed the Colts receivers to make easy completions. You'll notice that around the goal line, the Ravens do play more zone because it crowds the passing lanes and makes it far more difficult to make a good throw. That's why the Ravens don't often allow scores.

You know the one key element missing is D creating turnovers.

[stampedehero]

He wasn't blitzing that much even when our secondary   had Ladarius Webb, Correy Graham and Jimmy Smith last year. The only time I remember Pees blitzing more was in 2012 but he kinda had to because  Suggs was out for awhile and we didn't have any consistent pass rusher to get to the quarterback.

Now that Dumervil and Suggs play they are coming off the D ends but with good block tactics the QB can step up in the pocket  and choose second or third options. Who is in the middle that can shut the trap?  I see D Smith and Elam or subs. The real fear is the long yard TD once a CB is turned.  aka AC Green pasting the smear on us.     

[ravensdfan]

It is almost as simple as the field gets shortened and the play calling becomes more limited. Pees played a lot of man coverage on Sunday against the Colts, but Webb and Asa were giving massive cushions and it really allowed the Colts receivers to make easy completions. You'll notice that around the goal line, the Ravens do play more zone because it crowds the passing lanes and makes it far more difficult to make a good throw. That's why the Ravens don't often allow scores.

 

The cushions come from the coaching staff. Can't say it is Pees directly but it is definitely someone reporting to him then. They don't just decide "oh let me give him a 10 yd cushion". It is still a soft man and not press coverage which I guess is more in line with what people are complaining about.

 

Even last year with Webb/Smith Pees did not blitz or use press coverage very often so this isn't a new complaint about his approach. 

 

My soft zone comment was regarding the games in general, not specifically the Colts' game.

 

Don't want or need to have the same conversation in both threads so might as well keep it here.

[Tenacious Faulker]

Yeah I liked Pagano more than Rex. Rex gambled a lot and it paid off due to the talent we had at the time. Pagano was more a creative mind.

 

29th is a metric in the fact that our defense keeps themselves on the field too long - 20 play drives, 8 and 9 mins drives , etc - my issue with Pees is his complete lack of creativity when it comes to creating pressure. He is way tooc conservative and only becomes aggressive in any faction of the game if we have a huge lead. Sometimes, you have to take those chances to get the win and sometimes it has cost us.

I know where you're coming from, but I tend to disagree about his creativity on pressure.  Pees' scheme might not get the stats generator Pagano or Ryan had but, its a less riskier scheme.  The problem has been lack of talent/development in the secondary and too much reliance on Webb and Smith.  

 

Pees has rotational players like Dume, Upshaw, Tyson and McPhee and knows how/when to use them.  It is complex, but just not firing on all cylinders at the moment.  It also won't be anything like the other guy ('cept maybe Mattison).  I have to stand by Pees because he managed that defense back in 2012 to help the team win the Super Bowl when Lewis, Suggs, and Webb were down much of the season with injuries.  That was no small feat. 

[ravensdfan]

I know where you're coming from, but I tend to disagree about his creativity on pressure.  Pees' scheme might not get the stats generator Pagano or Ryan had but, its a less riskier scheme.  The problem has been lack of talent/development in the secondary and too much reliance on Webb and Smith.  

 

Pees has rotational players like Dume, Upshaw, Tyson and McPhee and knows how/when to use them.  It is complex, but just not firing on all cylinders at the moment.  It also won't be anything like the other guy ('cept maybe Mattison).  I have to stand by Pees because he managed that defense back in 2012 to help the team win the Super Bowl when Lewis, Suggs, and Webb were down much of the season with injuries.  That was no small feat. 

 

You mean the defense that gave up the most points ever by a winning SB team? The defense that let a team come back from 28-6 down?

 

Our defense was ranked 18th overall that year - the offense won us that SB. And the O line play in the post season. They ramped it up.

 

It is not a good thing to be reminding us of Mattison.

[Inqui]

I know where you're coming from, but I tend to disagree about his creativity on pressure.  Pees' scheme might not get the stats generator Pagano or Ryan had but, its a less riskier scheme.  The problem has been lack of talent/development in the secondary and too much reliance on Webb and Smith.  

 

Pees has rotational players like Dume, Upshaw, Tyson and McPhee and knows how/when to use them.  It is complex, but just not firing on all cylinders at the moment.  It also won't be anything like the other guy ('cept maybe Mattison).  I have to stand by Pees because he managed that defense back in 2012 to help the team win the Super Bowl when Lewis, Suggs, and Webb were down much of the season with injuries.  That was no small feat. 

That's one thing I respect about him - his ability to scrap together a defensive unit with dregs. I remember him having to use Julian Edelman as a CB a few years ago. If that doesn't scream being able to work with what little's in front of you, I don't know what does.

 

For the record, I'm still very much on the fence about Pees. It feels like every week I lean towards wanting something diferent to the previous week.

[Tenacious Faulker]

I don't have anything to add, but just wanted to say this was a good post.

 

Except for the bit about Tampa being almost a bye. We should all know the Ravens don't do gimmies.

True.  I was using a bit of hyperbole.  But Tampa is not as good as they seem these past two game either.  They've benefited from ~200 seond half penalty yards in two games.  The Ravens have been among the best this season in preventing defensive penalties.  Nothing's guaranteed but I like our odds in this one.   

[Tenacious Faulker]

You mean the defense that gave up the most points ever by a winning SB team? The defense that let a team come back from 28-6 down?

 

Our defense was ranked 18th overall that year - the offense won us that SB. And the O line play in the post season. They ramped it up.

 

It is not a good thing to be reminding us of Mattison.

Meh, it happens.  Something happened after/during that power outage and they came back a different team.  At least it wasn't a "boring" game.  Again, the defense got it done where it mattered - red zone stands and turnovers.  And if that didn't work Flacco would've made tackles from the sidelines.  

 

We can invoke names as role models or examples.  Pagoano is a role model.  Mattison is an example.