The Missing Pass-Rush

[redrum52]

Gilbert, the player I pointed out as a weak link. Their line most certainly isn't the best because there can only be one best, but they're definitely top 15 in pass blocking, °as opposed to the past when they were bottom five. The Bengals have one of the most talented lines and the Steelers have a good one. The Browns have a very talented offensive line. Don't expect any like eight sack games or anything huge anytime soon.

And just so you know, the Ravens are getting into the backfield, but teams are putting just emphasis on getting the ball out fast and that won't change in Cleveland

I get what you're saying. Might not be getting the sack but we're getting pressure. The Bengals schemed around this in the first game. If we continue as we normally do our guys should be getting there by mid season.

[BmoreBird22]

I get what you're saying. Might not be getting the sack but we're getting pressure. The Bengals schemed around this in the first game. If we continue as we normally do our guys should be getting there by mid season.

The AFC North is just built around strong trenches and now quick passing offenses. It's going to be hard to get sacks inside the division, but wait until they start playing outside the division. Just a quick look over the schedule outside the division and I see most teams as being teams that the Ravens can consistently get pressure against, except maybe the Chargers.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

I am very dissapointed in the pass rush this year. It looks like we do the same thing on every play. I would like to see Elam or Jimmy on a blitz once in awhile.

I believe it is scheme related. Which is laziness on Pees to get creative. Yeah I am calling you out. I have seen what better D coordinators can do

[Cillmatic]

Once again, our pass rush has disappeared. Any pass rushers coming in the draft this year?

[Inqui]

Once again, our pass rush has disappeared. Any pass rushers coming in the draft this year?

There are quite a few in that top 50-75 overall prospect list. Beyond guys like Randy Gregory or Vic Beasley that have no chance of falling, Mario Edwards (FSU), Alvin Dupree (Kentucky), Dante Fowler (Florida), Hau'oli Kikaha (Washington), Shawn Oakman (Baylor), Cedric Reed (Texas) and Shane Ray (Missouri) all look like they should be there in the late first to mid third or so. And one of my favourites is Shilique Calhoun (MSU).

[GrimCoconut]

There are quite a few in that top 50-75 overall prospect list. Beyond guys like Randy Gregory or Vic Beasley that have no chance of falling, Mario Edwards (FSU), Alvin Dupree (Kentucky), Dante Fowler (Florida), Hau'oli Kikaha (Washington), Shawn Oakman (Baylor), Cedric Reed (Texas) and Shane Ray (Missouri) all look like they should be there in the late first to mid third or so. And one of my favourites is Shilique Calhoun (MSU).

I really like what I've seen from Calhoun. He has a lot of explosion. He just needs to learn more pass rush moves.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

Are you telling me that John Simon sucked so bad, that after our depletion of D linemen, we hadnt a spot for him?

I thought he was the next gen after Suggs and Doom. I am a little pissed that we let Houston grab him off the PS. 4th Round Pick??? Really?? Not too happy about this. Yet I look at some of the picks we could of had if he does suck. I dont believe he does tho. Epic Fail

[Tenacious Faulker]

Once again, our pass rush has disappeared. Any pass rushers coming in the draft this year?

Don;t forget that Pagano knows our defense.  We did draft Timmy Jernigan this year.  He's just recuperating.  Hopefully its not a long term trend with him.

 

Are you telling me that John Simon sucked so bad, that after our depletion of D linemen, we hadnt a spot for him?

I thought he was the next gen after Suggs and Doom. I am a little pissed that we let Houston grab him off the PS. 4th Round Pick??? Really?? Not too happy about this. Yet I look at some of the picks we could of had if he does suck. I dont believe he does tho. Epic Fail

Simon was an OLB not lineman which is where the Ravens are depleted.  The Ravens are log-jammed at OLB and needed the roster space.  It was unfortunate he got signed off the PS but that's the business of the NFL.

 

The AFC North is just built around strong trenches and now quick passing offenses. It's going to be hard to get sacks inside the division, but wait until they start playing outside the division. Just a quick look over the schedule outside the division and I see most teams as being teams that the Ravens can consistently get pressure against, except maybe the Chargers.

I agree.  Our firsty 3 games were all divisional matches.  Then we played well against the Panthers and then struggles againsts the Colts - a top team headed by a former Ravens coach.  

 

Teams are gaming for the Ravens pass rush.  Suggs is drawing doubles and Elvis/McPhee are reaping the rewards - such as it is.  Better teams know to get the ball out faster and do.  Pees is not committed to the blitz because his DBs need help.  Jimmy is good, but Webb hasn't been himself since he returned.  After them our corners are not to be trusted.  Our safeties are average, but with upside in the young players.  It will take a while since our zone coverage is complex.  

 

BTW  - 

[gabefergy]

I would like too see more sacks, but there is pretty consistent pressure. We've played some good OLs so far so I'm not very concerned.

[ravensdfan]

Don;t forget that Pagano knows our defense.  We did draft Timmy Jernigan this year.  He's just recuperating.  Hopefully its not a long term trend with him.

 

Simon was an OLB not lineman which is where the Ravens are depleted.  The Ravens are log-jammed at OLB and needed the roster space.  It was unfortunate he got signed off the PS but that's the business of the NFL.

 

I agree.  Our firsty 3 games were all divisional matches.  Then we played well against the Panthers and then struggles againsts the Colts - a top team headed by a former Ravens coach.  

 

Teams are gaming for the Ravens pass rush.  Suggs is drawing doubles and Elvis/McPhee are reaping the rewards - such as it is.  Better teams know to get the ball out faster and do.  Pees is not committed to the blitz because his DBs need help.  Jimmy is good, but Webb hasn't been himself since he returned.  After them our corners are not to be trusted.  Our safeties are average, but with upside in the young players.  It will take a while since our zone coverage is complex.  

 

BTW  - 

 

Yes the DBs need help however, not sending pressure doesn't really help them. Sacks are sacks and even with consistent pressure, you won't always get that versus the better QBs. They're going to manage to throw the ball away. You need to send pressure though because it is about so much more than just sacks. Timing disruption, tipped balls, bad decisions, this all comes from pressure - rushing 4 isn't getting consistent pressure & that does not help the DBs.

 

If the QB can make a five course meal before he even has to worry about any pocket pressure at all, he will pick you apart. Pees has no creativity when it comes to bringing blitzes and it shows.

[GrimCoconut]

Are you telling me that John Simon sucked so bad, that after our depletion of D linemen, we hadnt a spot for him?

I thought he was the next gen after Suggs and Doom. I am a little pissed that we let Houston grab him off the PS. 4th Round Pick??? Really?? Not too happy about this. Yet I look at some of the picks we could of had if he does suck. I dont believe he does tho. Epic Fail

Not every pick works out. FWIW, in every draft, you hope to have a few guys who turn out and become main stays. Usually, it's only one or two. You can look it up  if  you want, but  it's not common to get multiple starters from one draft. 

 

2013 gave us Wagner, Williams, Juszczyk. Those three are all starter. Then you have guys like Brown, Elam. One is a starter but arguably not very good and the other has been inactive after a pretty decent rookie year as a nickel LB. Not exactly a  bad draft yet, huh? Still for it to go either way, but don't be too strict. It's not common to get many guys like that. 

[Xandtar]

They threw screens all day. That's what teams do to limit the pass rush. Their gameplan was to not let Dalton get under pressure. It worked to keep him upright but it didn't get them many points. So I'm not worried.

Heh my Bucs are perhaps the worst team in the NFL at executing screen passes.

[codizzle]

I would like too see more sacks, but there is pretty consistent pressure. We've played some good OLs so far so I'm not very concerned.

As long as McPhee is playing, I'm not concerned

[DomMcRaven]

Does anyone have a feeling that Pees isn't blitzing enough because he doesn't trust our secondary just as much as we do? I mean take a look at Rex. Though he blitzes, he doesn't have the same secondary he once had. I don't know, just something I was thinking about.

[gabefergy]

Yes the DBs need help however, not sending pressure doesn't really help them. Sacks are sacks and even with consistent pressure, you won't always get that versus the better QBs. They're going to manage to throw the ball away. You need to send pressure though because it is about so much more than just sacks. Timing disruption, tipped balls, bad decisions, this all comes from pressure - rushing 4 isn't getting consistent pressure & that does not help the DBs.

 

If the QB can make a five course meal before he even has to worry about any pocket pressure at all, he will pick you apart. Pees has no creativity when it comes to bringing blitzes and it shows.

You post this same thing over and over, and it is flat out wrong. Bringing blitzes is not a magic formula for success or even pressure. The Ravens kept the game close in Indianapolis largely by generating a pass-rush with 4 men. McPhee's sack? 4 man rush. The first Interception came on a delayed blitz, because a RB pass-blocked instead of releasing into a route, but that is very situational. 

 

The problem with bltizing is it leaves the secondary exposed. The TD to AJ Green in week 1 is a perfect example of what can happen when bringing extra defenders. If the secondary could be relied on to cover man to man then maybe there will be some more blitzes. Until then, it's up to the front 4 to get it done.

[ravensdfan]

You post this same thing over and over, and it is flat out wrong. Bringing blitzes is not a magic formula for success or even pressure. The Ravens kept the game close in Indianapolis largely by generating a pass-rush with 4 men. McPhee's sack? 4 man rush. The first Interception came on a delayed blitz, because a RB pass-blocked instead of releasing into a route, but that is very situational. 

 

The problem with bltizing is it leaves the secondary exposed. The TD to AJ Green in week 1 is a perfect example of what can happen when bringing extra defenders. If the secondary could be relied on to cover man to man then maybe there will be some more blitzes. Until then, it's up to the front 4 to get it done.

It's not a magic forumula - and yes, there are times when the 4 man rush creates pressure, and yes, there are times certain formations are situational, however, it also is NOT flat out wrong.

 

Pressure can indeed mask a weak secondary. It's done all the time. Like anything else it isn't 100% successful, sitting at 26th versus the pass certainly doesn't say "success" to me regarding our current approach to helping out our secondary.

 

Letting a QB sit back there forever certainly does nothing to help out a weak secondary.

 

edit: oh pardon me, 29th. Yes I guess our 29th ranking versus the pass screams "success" so let's by all means stick with it!

[BmoreBird22]

edit: oh pardon me, 29th. Yes I guess our 29th ranking versus the pass screams "success" so let's by all means stick with it!

They've given up the third fewest total points per game in the entire NFL, have allowed the fewest passing touchdowns in the NFL (tied with the Bengals who have played one less game), and have three interceptions. That screams success.

[ravensdfan]

They've given up the third fewest total points per game in the entire NFL, have allowed the fewest passing touchdowns in the NFL (tied with the Bengals who have played one less game), and have three interceptions. That screams success.

 

And you keep on posting that same thing too - and I keep on saying (as I have said over and over and you ignore) that the red zone defense is playing great but we also need to get off the field you know, preferably before 20 plays or 8 mins. This is really where we miss the pressure - and, while I haven't done a play by play (I know how you like to call for that) my gut impression is with the shorter field, we are bringing more blitzes in the red zone. See how that works?

 

I'm not even saying oh let's blitz every other play like everyone is acting - I'm saying a DC worth their salt would be at least somewhat more aggressive between the 20s. Get somewhat creative. There are tons of different coverages out there, even modified coverages, even mixed coverages. It won't work every time, nothing does, but I'd bet money it would get us off the field sooner.

 

And we'd not be ranked 29th. shameful.

[busterblue52]

Does anyone else feel like Suggs lines up different then other defensive players in the league?? I don't know if it's the angle he takes or what but it doesn't look normal to me. I actually like our pass rush with Mcphee in the middle doom and Suggs on the edge and then ether Upshaw or Williams in the mid.

[gabefergy]

It's not a magic forumula - and yes, there are times when the 4 man rush creates pressure, and yes, there are times certain formations are situational, however, it also is NOT flat out wrong.

Pressure can indeed mask a weak secondary. It's done all the time. Like anything else it isn't 100% successful, sitting at 26th versus the pass certainly doesn't say "success" to me regarding our current approach to helping out our secondary.

Letting a QB sit back there forever certainly does nothing to help out a weak secondary.

edit: oh pardon me, 29th. Yes I guess our 29th ranking versus the pass screams "success" so let's by all means stick with it!

You know what screams successful? 3rd in the NFL in PPG allowed. The most important stat. 4 of the teams we have played are near the top of the league in offense as well.

Pressure helps the secondary. Blitzing does not equal pressure, and every time there is a blitz it exposes the back end of the defense.

[allblackraven]

Does anyone have a feeling that Pees isn't blitzing enough because he doesn't trust our secondary just as much as we do? I mean take a look at Rex. Though he blitzes, he doesn't have the same secondary he once had. I don't know, just something I was thinking about.

 

I do. That's a big part of why there isn't more blitzing. People are easily getting open and QBs can let go off it quickly.

[The Raven]

Does anyone have a feeling that Pees isn't blitzing enough because he doesn't trust our secondary just as much as we do? I mean take a look at Rex. Though he blitzes, he doesn't have the same secondary he once had. I don't know, just something I was thinking about.

 

Ding ding ding

[Tenacious Faulker]

Ravensdfan, going back to the days of Rex Ryan blitz packages would be great, but there's a couple things you need to understand:

 

Since 2008 the league has been getting more pass happy and doesn't reward teams with hard hitting defenses.  Big plays (20+ yards took a big jump between 07 & 08.  I remember all the blitzing Ryan did and he ALWAYS gave up big passing plays in the end zone.

 

Total yards and ranks mean little anymore. The 2012 Steelers were #1 against the rush and pass. What did it get them?  An 8-8 record and they were lucky to earn 8 wins.  

 

Pees isn't working with 5 Pro Bowlers the way Rex was.  Maybe we get there again, but its unlikely. If they did it woould be short lived and being too costly in salary cap.

 

Yes the DBs need help however, not sending pressure doesn't really help them. Sacks are sacks and even with consistent pressure, you won't always get that versus the better QBs. They're going to manage to throw the ball away. You need to send pressure though because it is about so much more than just sacks. Timing disruption, tipped balls, bad decisions, this all comes from pressure - rushing 4 isn't getting consistent pressure & that does not help the DBs.

 

If the QB can make a five course meal before he even has to worry about any pocket pressure at all, he will pick you apart. Pees has no creativity when it comes to bringing blitzes and it shows.

The QBs rarely get a ton of time against the Ravens.  They're mostly just dropping back quick 3 &  5 steps to get rid of the ball for short yardage.  You can't blitz that scheme like Rex did if you do with our current DBs we'll get owned more times than not.  Rex had 2 Pro Bowlers (a a future HOFer) for his entire tenure back there, not to mention 2 to 3 more in the front 7.

 

It's not a magic forumula - and yes, there are times when the 4 man rush creates pressure, and yes, there are times certain formations are situational, however, it also is NOT flat out wrong.

 

Pressure can indeed mask a weak secondary. It's done all the time. Like anything else it isn't 100% successful, sitting at 26th versus the pass certainly doesn't say "success" to me regarding our current approach to helping out our secondary.

 

Letting a QB sit back there forever certainly does nothing to help out a weak secondary.

 

edit: oh pardon me, 29th. Yes I guess our 29th ranking versus the pass screams "success" so let's by all means stick with it!

It's not formulaic.  Its a balancing act that is adjusted for each game depending on opponent weakness and defensive injuries.  No passing game?  Stack the box and let the DBs go one on one.  Strong passing game?  Then run more nickle packages.  

 

The pass happy league does not reward yardage-stingy defenses.  Pass yards allowed is no longer a true measure of success.  Case in point: the 2012 Steelers D ranked first in both passing and rushing yards allowed and ended their season 8-8 and they were lucky to earn 8 wins.  The better metrics are 

 

And you keep on posting that same thing too - and I keep on saying (as I have said over and over and you ignore) that the red zone defense is playing great but we also need to get off the field you know, preferably before 20 plays or 8 mins. This is really where we miss the pressure - and, while I haven't done a play by play (I know how you like to call for that) my gut impression is with the shorter field, we are bringing more blitzes in the red zone. See how that works?

 

I'm not even saying oh let's blitz every other play like everyone is acting - I'm saying a DC worth their salt would be at least somewhat more aggressive between the 20s. Get somewhat creative. There are tons of different coverages out there, even modified coverages, even mixed coverages. It won't work every time, nothing does, but I'd bet money it would get us off the field sooner.

 

And we'd not be ranked 29th. shameful.

Again, 29th means nothing.  You're correct about getting pressure, but that's part of the balancing act that Pees is managing.   He's not as good with it as Pagano was.  In fact Pagano was a greater DC than Rex imo b/c Rex gambled a lot.  Pagano gambled less and took more calculated risks.  Pagano allowed the fewest big plays of all DCs since Rex under the new pass-happy rules with lesser overall talent.

 

The way its working now is pressure up front to take pressure off the DBs at least until they develop more.  The DL has been battling injuries which disrupts their defensive game plan.  As these players return so will the pass rush - pressure, sacks, turnovers. 

 

Everyone needs to relax.  There's a lot of  season left and we're in Tampa next week which is almost as good as a bye.  The defense gets Will Hill back after next week in Tampa.  Jernigan should be back in a about 2 weeks.  Canty in probably 2 weeks if the infection clears up sooner than later.

[52N19]

i rewatched the game last night and i thought the defense played very well. one weak spot was Webb who although he tackled well and looked quick he was playing way off the receivers and gave up several third down conversions.

 

the pass rush was pretty good considering you haev 2 guys off the street in the rotation, Guy and Blickcid. i donlt know how you pronounce his name. they were #'s 67 and 68.

 

you can talk about next man up into you are blue in teh face but losing the two DL guys for the year in training camp, Jerrigan being out and not having Canty is going to hurt you. there's no real rotation to keep guys fresh.

 

the next generation of ravens defense looks good. Mosley and Brandon Williams are newcomers who are playing at a high levele. Jimmy Smith is a flat out baller. brooks looks good and even Elam if playing the correct position may become a good player. add jerrigan and the the 2 guys who went down in training camp along with courtney upshaw holding the edge  and i would say we've made a good transition from the old to the new defensive guard.

 

another observation form the game. anyone who thinks that nghta should be let go for salary cap reasons next year should rethink that idea. nghta gets double teamed all of the time and just make plays running down RB's and stuffing the middle. i don't think we will fully appreicate him until he is gone.

[berad]

i rewatched the game last night and i thought the defense played very well. one weak spot was Webb who although he tackled well and looked quick he was playing way off the receivers and gave up several third down conversions.

 

the pass rush was pretty good considering you haev 2 guys off the street in the rotation, Guy and Blickcid. i donlt know how you pronounce his name. they were #'s 67 and 68.

 

you can talk about next man up into you are blue in teh face but losing the two DL guys for the year in training camp, Jerrigan being out and not having Canty is going to hurt you. there's no real rotation to keep guys fresh.

 

the next generation of ravens defense looks good. Mosley and Brandon Williams are newcomers who are playing at a high levele. Jimmy Smith is a flat out baller. brooks looks good and even Elam if playing the correct position may become a good player. add jerrigan and the the 2 guys who went down in training camp along with courtney upshaw holding the edge  and i would say we've made a good transition from the old to the new defensive guard.

 

another observation form the game. anyone who thinks that nghta should be let go for salary cap reasons next year should rethink that idea. nghta gets double teamed all of the time and just make plays running down RB's and stuffing the middle. i don't think we will fully appreicate him until he is gone.

Agree with a lot of what you're saying. Ngata turned on his A-game last Sunday, not just with the INT either. He was mobile and powerful.

Williams has been doing an awesome job and if NT was more visible, he'd be getting national attention.

[Edgar]

a lot of luck's completions were a direct result of him having a ton of time. Our coverage was generally pretty good Sunday and I know this goes against consensus opinion but I feel like our much maligned secondary will become a great strength. 

 This is contingent of course on webb being healthy but i look for the combination of will Hill and terrance Brooks at  FS/nickel corner to be a major strength.

[BmoreBird22]

And you keep on posting that same thing too - and I keep on saying (as I have said over and over and you ignore) that the red zone defense is playing great but we also need to get off the field you know, preferably before 20 plays or 8 mins. 

 

Get somewhat creative. There are tons of different coverages out there, even modified coverages, even mixed coverages. It won't work every time, nothing does, but I'd bet money it would get us off the field sooner.

Before the Colts game, which is going to clearly affect the average TOP for the Ravens, they led that battle about 32:28, so there's that. 

 

Pees actually is known for complex coverage schemes

[BmoreBird22]

Does anyone have a feeling that Pees isn't blitzing enough because he doesn't trust our secondary just as much as we do? I mean take a look at Rex. Though he blitzes, he doesn't have the same secondary he once had. I don't know, just something I was thinking about.

I don't know how long I've been trying to explain this to people

[DomMcRaven]

I don't know how long I've been trying to explain this to people

Yeah I gotta give Pees a break for that. I'm sure he would switch it up if he had a decent secondary. 

[BmoreBird22]

Yeah I gotta give Pees a break for that. I'm sure he would switch it up if he had a decent secondary. 

The fact that he has McPhee, Doom, Suggs, and Ngata on the front four should be enough to just rush four. Having a crappy secondary doesn't help, either.