All-Time NBA Draft: Discussion

[gabefergy]

Wasn't knocking the dirk pick itself as much as Karl should've been long gone imo..

But Kareem/Malone/Barkley sounds very interesting..

Some serious rebounding going on there

Just wondering why you think Malone is so superior?

[MoveThoseChains]

Wanted a shooting guard here. Had a couple of others in mind, but Wade in his prime was hard to pass on. His leadership and will to win, combined with his overall game is what sold me. One of the best shooting guards of all time in my mind, and still has room to build on his legacy. He will complement Pippen and Olajuwon nicely. 

[beanfigger]

Just wondering why you think Malone is so superior?

For me that's hard to compare. They are really different players. As you said, Nowitzki spreads the floor better, which is great for today's game. Malone, however, is certainly more physical, but since you already have Barkley, you aren't lacking there. As I said before, I think both would work with your team, just in different ways. With Malone, you would probably have the most intimidating front court that could be imagined.

[gabefergy]

For me that's hard to compare. They are really different players. As you said, Nowitzki spreads the floor better, which is great for today's game. Malone, however, is certainly more physical, but since you already have Barkley, you aren't lacking there. As I said before, I think both would work with your team, just in different ways. With Malone, you would probably have the most intimidating front court that could be imagined.

Malone wouldn't have made sense on my team, so he was never really in consideration, but I meant more-so in a vacuum. Malone put up great numbers for a long time, there is certainly no denying that. He was never as good in the playoffs though which I think is a legitimate knock on his career. 

 

Dirk on the other hand, was a better performer in the playoffs than in the regular season, not that his regular season totals are shabby either. His FT shooting is significantly better than Malone, and the 3PT shooting is an advantage IMO. If you look at their career True Shooting % (which factors in FT and 3PT shooting) Dirk actually comes out on top as the more efficient scorer.

 

So in the end, it really is just a preference of style, although I could totally understand an argument that Malone's peak was superior to Dirk's, and there is something to be said for Malone's longevity and continued high performance. In my opinion Dirk's career is also extremely underrated and he is still playing at a high level.

[codizzle]

Just wondering why you think Malone is so superior?

As you said in your next post "personal style"

Dirk is an amazing scorer.. One of the best creators in the history of the game but I hold defense probably a little too as a part of the judging process and dirk is one of the worst defenders I've ever seen

even without my extreme style bias, I'd say Malone>Dirk.. I understand the whole didn't win the championship deal but how many of the greats of the 90s were repeatedly shut down by the goat

[codizzle]

Also to your last sentence.. Dirk's career is vastly underrated as a scorer.. His career totals are ridiculous

[beanfigger]

Malone wouldn't have made sense on my team, so he was never really in consideration, but I meant more-so in a vacuum. Malone put up great numbers for a long time, there is certainly no denying that. He was never as good in the playoffs though which I think is a legitimate knock on his career.

Dirk on the other hand, was a better performer in the playoffs than in the regular season, not that his regular season totals are shabby either. His FT shooting is significantly better than Malone, and the 3PT shooting is an advantage IMO. If you look at their career True Shooting % (which factors in FT and 3PT shooting) Dirk actually comes out on top as the more efficient scorer.

So in the end, it really is just a preference of style, although I could totally understand an argument that Malone's peak was superior to Dirk's, and there is something to be said for Malone's longevity and continued high performance. In my opinion Dirk's career is also extremely underrated and he is still playing at a high level.

Valid arguments, and I agree. I just can't stop thinking about the fact that you might have had the top two scorers in terms of total points in the history of the league. I also don't necessarily agree that Malone played poorly in the playoffs. The went deep a lot, and he played in three championships. However, Dirk can just reply "I couldn't hear you over the shine of my ring."

[gabefergy]

Valid arguments, and I agree. I just can't stop thinking about the fact that you might have had the top two scorers in terms of total points in the history of the league. I also don't necessarily agree that Malone played poorly in the playoffs. The went deep a lot, and he played in three championships. However, Dirk can just reply "I couldn't hear you over the shine of my ring."

I'm not saying Malone played poorly in the playoffs, but in comparison to his regular season production he was not as good. His overall numbers were still fantastic.

[gabefergy]

It looks like our resident neg-meister has made it over to this draft as well.

[beanfigger]

It looks like our resident neg-meister has made it over to this draft as well.

 

Cancelled out.

[beanfigger]

Thank you. I knew the intention and it's appreciated. Don't worry. We typically bump this thread after every GM has posted their roster.

 

I was just hoping to inspire other GMs to stay up to date, which appears to have worked for a couple, because it will help my strategy to know which teams have what and might be looking for who.

[gabefergy]

Cancelled out.

Love the AI pick btw. He was a special player.

[beanfigger]

Love the AI pick btw. He was a special player.

 

I went to like 15-20 games/year when he was here. Watching him take the beating he always took and still stay on the court 40+ minutes and pour his heart out every single game was a group of memories I will always cherish.

[Inqui]

I wanted him all along, and I didn't think I would pull the trigger for another round, but SAM scared me by starting to pick all the other greats drafted in the late 90s.

That's the problem with being in the middle of the draft, there's always a long wait between picks so if you really like a guy you have to potentially reach or really risk losing them. On the bright side, players do tend to fall to you if you have an eye on value.

[beanfigger]

That's the problem with being in the middle of the draft, there's always a long wait between picks so if you really like a guy you have to potentially reach or really risk losing them. On the bright side, players do tend to fall to you if you have an eye on value.

 

I agree. For the record, I feel Iverson is good enough that this was not a reach, but I was considering waiting a little longer just to see if he somehow fell to the next round where his value would be off the charts. I doubt he would have slipped nine more spots, though.

[Inqui]

I'll preface this by saying I don't want to come off as too hard on the Dirk pick - as I actually fixed the first neg on the post.

 

First, I think the rings thing is a bit overblown in general. Not to discount Dirk's ring (he did carry a team of roleplayers, after all), but he won it with the Lakers on a major downswing and the Thunder and Heat not quite ready to set the league on fire while, as someone else said, the 90s was probably the toughest time for stars to win a ring. You don't just have Jordan's Bulls, but you have Shaq's Magic potentially waiting on the other side and a laundry list of guys in the west that I won't name yet. It's tough to say as it's all speculation really, but I think Malone's Jazz could have won in 2011 and Dirk's Mavs would have gone ringless in that era.

 

I understand Malone's drop in numbers come the playoffs, and that to be fair was probably what made me think about the choice for long enough to switch to Robinson in the second (that and Truth being afk ). But his postseason per game numbers drop to being pretty much identical to Dirk's - aside from three-point shooting, which is off the charts for Nowitzki, and FT shooting, which is really choosing between good and really good.

 

Malone was higher on my board because I preferred his post game and rebounding, while still being able to score from a decent range and move the ball around at a high enough level. Based on defence I'm going Malone and it's not even close - though I do think Dirk can get it done in a good team system (the one the Mavs set up in 2011, say). I also took the regular season stats into account, where Malone was comfortably better on a per-game basis.

 

Then again, as gabefergy and I have both said, it's really a matter of what you want out of your 4. It's also easier to find a quality traditional 4 later on that it is to find a good stretch 4 imo.

[Inqui]

I agree. For the record, I feel Iverson is good enough that this was not a reach, but I was considering waiting a little longer just to see if he somehow fell to the next round where his value would be off the charts. I doubt he would have slipped nine more spots, though.

Have a look at the Dirk-Malone discussion in the past couple of pages. That could easily be had about any two of Barkley, Malone, Dirk and Garnett imo as you could easily make the case for any one of them.

 

What I'm saying is there's a clear first tier (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Chamberlain, Kareem etc, depending on how deep you want to consider it) and after that a lot of it becomes more subjective based heavily on what you love in a player, how you want your team to look and what you already have. That's also why I think negging picks in these games is stupid and arbitrary, but what I do I know.

[beanfigger]

Have a look at the Dirk-Malone discussion in the past couple of pages. That could easily be had about any two of Barkley, Malone, Dirk and Garnett imo as you could easily make the case for any one of them.

 

What I'm saying is there's a clear first tier (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Chamberlain, Kareem etc, depending on how deep you want to consider it) and after that a lot of it becomes more subjective based heavily on what you love in a player, how you want your team to look and what you already have. That's also why I think negging picks in these games is stupid and arbitrary, but what I do I know.

 

I'm a big part of that conversation, so I obviously see your point. I just didn't know how this draft would go in terms of old school vs. new school bias. I thought maybe the more contemporary players would last longer, but I was clearly wrong.

[MoveThoseChains]

Malone-Dirk isn't a big discussion. Whoever you like more, you can make a case for. In an "all time draft," their really isn't a "wrong selection." It's all about building a team that fits what you have in mind. I understand discussing facts, but their is no right or wrong pick.

[allblackraven]

Can anybody take my board? It's midday here and I'm leaving until evening, so we can move little bit in case Ed_Reed20 makes his picks.

[gabefergy]

I'll preface this by saying I don't want to come off as too hard on the Dirk pick - as I actually fixed the first neg on the post.

 

First, I think the rings thing is a bit overblown in general. Not to discount Dirk's ring (he did carry a team of roleplayers, after all), but he won it with the Lakers on a major downswing and the Thunder and Heat not quite ready to set the league on fire while, as someone else said, the 90s was probably the toughest time for stars to win a ring. You don't just have Jordan's Bulls, but you have Shaq's Magic potentially waiting on the other side and a laundry list of guys in the west that I won't name yet. It's tough to say as it's all speculation really, but I think Malone's Jazz could have won in 2011 and Dirk's Mavs would have gone ringless in that era.

 

I understand Malone's drop in numbers come the playoffs, and that to be fair was probably what made me think about the choice for long enough to switch to Robinson in the second (that and Truth being afk ). But his postseason per game numbers drop to being pretty much identical to Dirk's - aside from three-point shooting, which is off the charts for Nowitzki, and FT shooting, which is really choosing between good and really good.

 

Malone was higher on my board because I preferred his post game and rebounding, while still being able to score from a decent range and move the ball around at a high enough level. Based on defence I'm going Malone and it's not even close - though I do think Dirk can get it done in a good team system (the one the Mavs set up in 2011, say). I also took the regular season stats into account, where Malone was comfortably better on a per-game basis.

 

Then again, as gabefergy and I have both said, it's really a matter of what you want out of your 4. It's also easier to find a quality traditional 4 later on that it is to find a good stretch 4 imo.

I don't want to drag out this discussion for too long, but you made a few points that I think need to be addressed. 

 

I do think playoff performance and talking about rings carries some weight. Winning an NBA title is the ultimate accomplishment, and it is how a lot of the great players are compared when looking at stats is more like picking nits.

 

You said that Malone had to go through Jordan's Bulls, which is true...for 2 seasons. He played on a lot of teams that didn't have to go through Jordan's Bulls, but those teams didn't even make it to the Finals so it's not like he was getting to the Finals every year just to lose to the greatest player in the NBA. The lack of postseason success was a constant throughout his career.

 

I would also argue that the more modern Western Conference that Dirk has played in has had just as good if not better competition than what Malone faced. He had to go up against two Dynasties with the Lakers and Spurs. 

 

The postseason numbers are fairly close between Dirk and Malone, but the edge would go towards Dirk. Looking at PER Dirk's 24.2 is signficantly better than Malone's 21.1.

[beanfigger]

Can anybody take my board? It's midday here and I'm leaving until evening, so we can move little bit in case Ed_Reed20 makes his picks.

Sure. I'll be up for a while tonight.

[Geving]

I don't want to drag out this discussion for too long, but you made a few points that I think need to be addressed. 

 

I do think playoff performance and talking about rings carries some weight. Winning an NBA title is the ultimate accomplishment, and it is how a lot of the great players are compared when looking at stats is more like picking nits.

 

You said that Malone had to go through Jordan's Bulls, which is true...for 2 seasons. He played on a lot of teams that didn't have to go through Jordan's Bulls, but those teams didn't even make it to the Finals so it's not like he was getting to the Finals every year just to lose to the greatest player in the NBA. The lack of postseason success was a constant throughout his career.

 

I would also argue that the more modern Western Conference that Dirk has played in has had just as good if not better competition than what Malone faced. He had to go up against two Dynasties with the Lakers and Spurs. 

 

The postseason numbers are fairly close between Dirk and Malone, but the edge would go towards Dirk. Looking at PER Dirk's 24.2 is signficantly better than Malone's 21.1.

Defense

[beanfigger]

Dirk vs Malone:  Karl Malone thrived on a pick and roll system. Gabe has decided to go big, thus he has no guards to run that system for him. Dirk can help spread the floor with the other two bruisers he has inside. Easy choice for best offensive efficiency. He may give up some on defense and rebounding, but he will more than make up for it with increased shooting efficiency.

[allblackraven]

Sure. I'll be up for a while tonight.

Thanks, little board PM'd. Won't do much time saving in case my pick prediction for the next two is wrong, have sent only two names.

[MoveThoseChains]

Chill with the Dirk-Mailman talk. Let's move on in this discussion board.

[MoveThoseChains]

If I am not mistaken, Dirk went 25th and Malone went within the next few picks. Both great players. Too much board has been spent on discussing the 2. We are only 3 rounds deep

Edited August 30, 2014 by MoveThoseChains

[allblackraven]

Since I inadvertently started the whole Dirk-Malone discussion, I need to clarify that it wasn't a knock on Dirk. He definitely is very good player. I guess I'm just more of a traditionalist here, expecting top notch defensive skills from PF position.

Edited August 30, 2014 by allblackraven

[-Truth-]

Truths team has my favorite top 3.. Could change after next round lol

Very happy to hear that. lol I hope it continues but we will see.

Kind of thinking the same. Who's the best point guard to match up with two top five ppg scoters? How about the all-time leader in assists.

(But my team still rules the highlights. Haha)

I appreciate that. Thank you. The Stockton selection just made too much sense to pass up on. Your team looks mighty impressive thus far. Every player you selected was very high on my list at the time. And I like that you have Iverson at the Two with a magnificent passer at the One.

[-Truth-]

Wanted a shooting guard here. Had a couple of others in mind, but Wade in his prime was hard to pass on. His leadership and will to win, combined with his overall game is what sold me. One of the best shooting guards of all time in my mind, and still has room to build on his legacy. He will complement Pippen and Olajuwon nicely.

And one of the better defenders in his prime. Nasty combination defensively between the three.