What was the bigger mistake?

[52520Andrew]

Again, You DONT KNOW HE WOULDNT. He is a hall of fame QB right now and QB was a need after the super bowl. Obviously we will never know.. what was Heap?! He could of succeeded elsewhere.

 

All I am saying is that it isn't guaranteed so going out and calling it this huge mistake like you are is a little overboard when you have no clue how he would have fit on our team. Brees is one of my favorite players in the league but systems impact people differently. I even provided an example of where that happened and it is a lot more common than people think. But whatever, I am done arguing it with you

[Alexir]

All I am saying is that it isn't guaranteed so going out and calling it this huge mistake like you are is a little overboard when you have no clue how he would have fit on our team. Brees is one of my favorite players in the league but systems impact people differently. I even provided an example of where that happened and it is a lot more common than people think. But whatever, I am done arguing it with you

... You come on a message board where the title is "what was the bigger mistake?" And you talk like you know he wouldn't succeed when it's obvious we are talking hypothetically.... Brees in any system is better than Heap. Bottom line.

[Tank 92]

... You come on a message board where the title is "what was the bigger mistake?" And you talk like you know he wouldn't succeed when it's obvious we are talking hypothetically.... Brees in any system is better than Heap. Bottom line.

 

 

Hypothetically, of course.  

 

Could Brees play as well outdoors in the northeastern winters?  Could he have withstood the AFC North defensive pressure and hits?  Who knows.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

guys like Brees,Manning, and Arod transcend systems and offensive philosophies. 

 

So, Montana would have succeeded in the Air Coryell? Even though Bill Walsh designed his West Coast offense around the talents & strengths of both Montana and his receivers? Because he being a HoF QB, regarded by many as among the top 3, would have undoubtedly transcended, like a HoF QB should?

 

Well, what about this stat line from a QB who was 28 years old at the time, right in his prime:

8 wins, 8 losses, 308 comp, 550 att, 56% Comp, 3997 yards, 24 TDs, and 22 INTs which led the NFL that year.

 

Looks remarkably similar to Joe's from last season, doesn't it?

So, who do you suppose was this QB?

Clearly he couldn't have been a HoF QB or he would have somehow, someway, transcended, right?

[52520Andrew]

... You come on a message board where the title is "what was the bigger mistake?" And you talk like you know he wouldn't succeed when it's obvious we are talking hypothetically.... Brees in any system is better than Heap. Bottom line.

 

I never said he wouldn't. Brees is a good QB but in our system I don't think he turns into that 5,000 yard passer that he is now. Cam Cameron may not be a great offensive coordinator but he can develop young QBs very well. Do I even need to get into how good Payton is? In a run heavy offense in a physical division like ours and outdoors, I don't see his production in New Orleans transferring over here and him breaking the records he did down there. Would he still have been good, sure he probably would have been our guy. So could we have taken him instead of Heap yes. But he probably wouldn't be the guy throwing for 5,000 yards a year here and his numbers would most likely be a lot closer to his San Diego numbers. I am presenting the other side of the argument and that there are more variables as to how the player does than just the player.

 

We could also have taken Tom Brady, Antonio Brown, Alshon Jeffrey, Aaron Rodgers, or Richard Sherman and plenty of other guys who ended up working out on different teams. We will never know if they would have succeeded with our team or not, most likely yes but we won't know how much it is the player being good and how much the coaching on those teams and the system factor in over the years.

[5aiah]

So, Montana would have succeeded in the Air Coryell? Even though Bill Walsh designed his West Coast offense around the talents & strengths of both Montana and his receivers? Because he being a HoF QB, regarded by many as among the top 3, would have undoubtedly transcended, like a HoF QB should?

 

Well, what about this stat line from a QB who was 28 years old at the time, right in his prime:

8 wins, 8 losses, 308 comp, 550 att, 56% Comp, 3997 yards, 24 TDs, and 22 INTs which led the NFL that year.

 

Looks remarkably similar to Joe's from last season, doesn't it?

So, who do you suppose was this QB?

Clearly he couldn't have been a HoF QB or he would have somehow, someway, transcended, right?

No Montana wouldn't have. Why do you need to put words in my mouth? Montana is a completely different QB and no he didn't have the skills to run Air Coryell. Stop with the straw man. I named QBs who have amazing deep balls as well as vision and accuracy.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

No Montana wouldn't have. Why do you need to put words in my mouth? Montana is a completely different QB and no he didn't have the skills to run Air Coryell. Stop with the straw man. I named QBs who have amazing deep balls as well as vision and accuracy.

 

Fair enough.

But I still don't agree that even elite/HoF QBs can transcend all systems or philosophies--at least not bad ones or ones that are a poor fit for the other players on the team. To me, there are 3 primary factors that determine a QB's success: his own talent, the right players around him, the right system for ALL those players (not just the QB).

Which is why Tom Brady isn't elite if he's a rookie in 1995 with the Jets, not with Rich Kotite as his coach.

And I believe that is one of the reasons Flacco has floundered in his development, in some ways, because of poor/inconsistent coaching: his best seasons have been when he had a QB coach, either Zorn or Caldwell, his worst have been when he has some gopher moonlighting as one. I also don't think the Ravens FO did a good job of supplying the right type of players for the Air Coryell: too many retreads and late round projects for a system that requires elite deep threats among a talented and complete receiving corp with a solid O-line that can hold back the pass rush an extra second to buy the receivers time to get downfield. To me, with colleges churning out too many good pass rushers, both edge and interior, unless you invest in the O-line, you cannot run the AC effectively: Cutler with Marz and Rivers with Norv when the Bears and Chargers had those awful o-lines for a few years comes to mind. Which also explains Joe's success for the 5 game stretch at the end of 2012 (Giants game + Playoffs) because that's when Caldwell & Harbaugh fixed what was broken, by making key: personnel changes to the o-line and adjustments to the roles of the receiving corp. On the other hand, when Castillo introduced his version of the ZBS, the running game fell completely apart because it was a system that was a bad fit for our players.

What's always held Joe back has been consistency, both his own and that of everyone around him. I think we may finally see that consistency under Kubiak with this deep receiving corp. The WCO will mask the weaknesses of our O-line and it seems to be a better fit for our receiving corp too.

My overall point is that while elite QBs may not be products of their systems, they are beneficiaries of them and a bad system or one that's a poor fit for their team will drag them down and hold them back.

[Ausman]

Money. This is a business.

 

A corrupt business

[5aiah]

 

Fair enough.

But I still don't agree that even elite/HoF QBs can transcend all systems or philosophies--at least not bad ones or ones that are a poor fit for the other players on the team. To me, there are 3 primary factors that determine a QB's success: his own talent, the right players around him, the right system for ALL those players (not just the QB).

Which is why Tom Brady isn't elite if he's a rookie in 1995 with the Jets, not with Rich Kotite as his coach.

And I believe that is one of the reasons Flacco has floundered in his development, in some ways, because of poor/inconsistent coaching: his best seasons have been when he had a QB coach, either Zorn or Caldwell, his worst have been when he has some gopher moonlighting as one. I also don't think the Ravens FO did a good job of supplying the right type of players for the Air Coryell: too many retreads and late round projects for a system that requires elite deep threats among a talented and complete receiving corp with a solid O-line that can hold back the pass rush an extra second to buy the receivers time to get downfield. To me, with colleges churning out too many good pass rushers, both edge and interior, unless you invest in the O-line, you cannot run the AC effectively: Cutler with Marz and Rivers with Norv when the Bears and Chargers had those awful o-lines for a few years comes to mind. Which also explains Joe's success for the 5 game stretch at the end of 2012 (Giants game + Playoffs) because that's when Caldwell & Harbaugh fixed what was broken, by making key: personnel changes to the o-line and adjustments to the roles of the receiving corp. On the other hand, when Castillo introduced his version of the ZBS, the running game fell completely apart because it was a system that was a bad fit for our players.

What's always held Joe back has been consistency, both his own and that of everyone around him. I think we may finally see that consistency under Kubiak with this deep receiving corp. The WCO will mask the weaknesses of our O-line and it seems to be a better fit for our receiving corp too.

My overall point is that while elite QBs may not be products of their systems, they are beneficiaries of them and a bad system or one that's a poor fit for their team will drag them down and hold them back.

We're not so far off, you and me. My point is that I make a distinction on which QBs are transcendent and its genrally agreed that they are. Being a HOF'er or the NFL's greatest modern QB(Brady) doesn't mean you transcend all offensive systems, that's definitely not what I said. I agree with nearly everything else you just said. We're on the same page at least. 

[ravensdan]

I finally figured out how the boldin trade could be considered a mistake. If we had waited longer to trade him we could have possibly improved the real a bit. Not sure if there was a time limit for a bonus though. But the pats got a bit more for mankins because it was clear the bucs were desperate. If we had waited the 9ers could have gotten more desperate. It could have backfired though if the 9ers had signed a different free agent.

[3-4ravdef509]

... You come on a message board where the title is "what was the bigger mistake?" And you talk like you know he wouldn't succeed when it's obvious we are talking hypothetically.... Brees in any system is better than Heap. Bottom line.

 

I guess I see your point, but it's still fair as many are saying to point out that it's not a given Brees would have played as well or well at all in a different system/environment.

 

Boldin on the other hand, was a proven commodity in our system and had just come off an equally amazing postseason to Joe's. He was clearly the favorite target, and instead of paying him the money he deserved, we asked him to take a pay cut. And I GUARANTEE that with Boldin we win at least one of the games we needed to win to get back into the post season last year.

[berad]

I finally figured out how the boldin trade could be considered a mistake. If we had waited longer to trade him we could have possibly improved the real a bit. Not sure if there was a time limit for a bonus though. But the pats got a bit more for mankins because it was clear the bucs were desperate. If we had waited the 9ers could have gotten more desperate. It could have backfired though if the 9ers had signed a different free agent.

 

Not a bad thought because Boldin was traded in March and Crabtree tore his Achilles in May.

 

However, Ozzie needed that cash in March to jump into the FA battle. Canty, Spears, Huff, and Dumervil (who fell into our lap) were all signed in part thanks to Boldin money. If we had waited, those guys might not have been around.

 

Granted, Spears and Huff busted out but...

[3-4ravdef509]

Not a bad thought because Boldin was traded in March and Crabtree tore his Achilles in May.

 

However, Ozzie needed that cash in March to jump into the FA battle. Canty, Spears, Huff, and Dumervil (who fell into our lap) were all signed in part thanks to Boldin money. If we had waited, those guys might not have been around.

 

Granted, Spears and Huff busted out but...

 

Would rather have Boldin than Doom...just saying. I'd rather Boldin and Upshaw start than Steve Smith and Doom...maybe that's premature, and I do like Steve Smith - I just thought Boldin had a lot more left to offer

[Blackbirds Rule]

Would rather have Boldin than Doom...just saying. I'd rather Boldin and Upshaw start than Steve Smith and Doom...maybe that's premature, and I do like Steve Smith - I just thought Boldin had a lot more left to offer

We'll see this year. If Dumervil gets back to his double digit sack days and SR gets close to 1,000 yards. then I think we made the right move. If Dumervil is so so like last year and SR doesn't have the year we expect then in hindsight we should've just paid Boldin.

[3-4ravdef509]

We'll see this year. If Dumervil gets back to his double digit sack days and SR gets close to 1,000 yards. then I think we made the right move. If Dumervil is so so like last year and SR doesn't have the year we expect then in hindsight we should've just paid Boldin.

Agreed. That's fair.

[berad]

Would rather have Boldin than Doom...just saying. I'd rather Boldin and Upshaw start than Steve Smith and Doom...maybe that's premature, and I do like Steve Smith - I just thought Boldin had a lot more left to offer

 

Upshaw technically does start - 13 last year - and plays a lot. Dumervil is a specialist and cycles in on passing downs, plays a lot of snaps also, though.

 

Boldin probably wouldn't have been here this year, anyways. If Ozzie wouldn't have paid out a $6M hit in 2013, he probably wouldn't have re-signed him to a 2-year/$12M deal like the 49ers did. Steve Smith signed for 3 years / $10.5M.

 

Boldin is younger so probably does have more years left in his career but that's a decision Ozzie made.

[3-4ravdef509]

Upshaw technically does start - 13 last year - and plays a lot. Dumervil is a specialist and cycles in on passing downs, plays a lot of snaps also, though.

 

Boldin probably wouldn't have been here this year, anyways. If Ozzie wouldn't have paid out a $6M hit in 2013, he probably wouldn't have re-signed him to a 2-year/$12M deal like the 49ers did. Steve Smith signed for 3 years / $10.5M.

 

Boldin is younger so probably does have more years left in his career but that's a decision Ozzie made.

 

I suppose that's true. I meant Upshaw starting as in full time all 16 games. Idk if Doom is worth the money as a specialist...I'd rather have Upshaw and Boldin still, but I understand your point, Ozzie made a decision he thought was best.

[berad]

I suppose that's true. I meant Upshaw starting as in full time all 16 games. Idk if Doom is worth the money as a specialist...I'd rather have Upshaw and Boldin still, but I understand your point, Ozzie made a decision he thought was best.

 

I'm not saying I agree with it, either, I was shocked by the Boldin trade too. Just pointing out some potential reasoning behind it.

[3-4ravdef509]

I'm not saying I agree with it, either, I was shocked by the Boldin trade too. Just pointing out some potential reasoning behind it.

 

I wonder if Boldin would have resigned with us after last year for less than what he got from the 49ers...

 

Whatever. It's in the past. Boldin forever holds a place in this fan's heart for what he did for our city, but new times and new faces. Now we have Smith Sr, and I am excited as it looks like he and Flacco are in sync like Mason and him used to be in the day.

[Halden52]

One of the biggest problems last year was the fact that the Ravens pretty much gave up on the running game. The game plan seemed to be: pass, pass, pass, pass, play action, pass, pass, run. That's not their style of football, and it showed last year. But bringing in Kubiak will help that I think, as well as Steve Smith

[ravensdan]

Would rather have Boldin than Doom...just saying. I'd rather Boldin and Upshaw start than Steve Smith and Doom...maybe that's premature, and I do like Steve Smith - I just thought Boldin had a lot more left to offer

Why would you want two inferior players starting??? Doom is an impact pass rusher and was very good last year. Upshaw doesn't have a good pass rush. Steve smith is far and away better than Boldin. Always has been in another class. Smith will be better this year and probably a couple more. And it is a very large gap. A chasm.

[1/28/01]

Why would you want two inferior players starting??? Doom is an impact pass rusher and was very good last year. Upshaw doesn't have a good pass rush. Steve smith is far and away better than Boldin. Always has been in another class. Smith will be better this year and probably a couple more. And it is a very large gap. A chasm.

Smith far and away better than Boldin? Boldin BEFORE Ravens was a beast. Smith BEFORE Ravens was a beast. We'll see after a year with the Ravens who was better for us. To say far and away with what Boldin did his first 6 or 7 years in the league is laughable.

[redrum52]

Brees is great enough that he could have changed the culture himself and his talent translates to multiple offenses. He has been at skill levels Flacco just won't ever reach and is a totally different QB. This same argument you see all the time here, "this hall of fame QB wouldn't be as good in Baltimore" and we are all entitled to our opinion but the fact of the matter is those guys are great enough to demand better for the offense,get it, and then back it up. Those guys can push back on the coordinators and run the offense they way they see fit at times. Those guys can shoulder more responsibility on a consistent basis.

Yes mr hater, I would like if you stop hating on Flacco and it would be good of you to remember Flacco is now our deity. Any discussion of QBs before or after Flacco is blasphemy. Lets keep the conversation about Flacco please or just not talk about QBs at all if you have nothing Flacco positive to say.

Lol. This guy

[Militant X 1]

Smith far and away better than Boldin? Boldin BEFORE Ravens was a beast. Smith BEFORE Ravens was a beast. We'll see after a year with the Ravens who was better for us. To say far and away with what Boldin did his first 6 or 7 years in the league is laughable.

 

I'm not saying that Smith is far and away better than Boldin at all but Boldin did have that cat named Fitzgerald opposite him that drew much attention that freed up Boldin to make killer plays.  Now Steve Smith?  He's just a bad man cause there was really no one opposite him and he still made killer plays while even being double teamed at times.  Hopefully, we'll see that Steve Smith this season! 

 

#Mili

[Bltravens]

I'm not saying that Smith is far and away better than Boldin at all but Boldin did have that cat named Fitzgerald opposite him that drew much attention that freed up Boldin to make killer plays.  Now Steve Smith?  He's just a bad man cause there was really no one opposite him and he still made killer plays while even being double teamed at times.  Hopefully, we'll see that Steve Smith this season! 

 

#Mili

For arguments sake, Mohammed opposite Smith was a pretty legit #2.  Though you could say Smith helped Mohammed more than Boldin helped Fitz.

[1/28/01]

I'm not saying that Smith is far and away better than Boldin at all but Boldin did have that cat named Fitzgerald opposite him that drew much attention that freed up Boldin to make killer plays. Now Steve Smith? He's just a bad man cause there was really no one opposite him and he still made killer plays while even being double teamed at times. Hopefully, we'll see that Steve Smith this season!

#Mili

Boldin was being Boldin before Fitz.

[Ravenslifer]

Better question - if we hadn't drafted Arthur Brown and taken Keenan Allen instead, would we be wondering about Q last year at all?  And does Boldin change that fact that we had no Pitta, our run game was straight garbage, and our third receiver and second tight end were a combined 72 years old?

[5aiah]

Boldin was being Boldin before Fitz.

No he wasn't, he was being some unknown receiver who hadn't led his team in receptions. Fitz made Boldin the man he is today, matter of fact, we should thank Fitz for helping us win a ring while were at it. He didn't break any records or make the pro bowl until Fitz came along and gave him the magic potion. 

[Militant X 1]

For arguments sake, Mohammed opposite Smith was a pretty legit #2.  Though you could say Smith helped Mohammed more than Boldin helped Fitz.

 

It's no argument!  You're right!  Mohammed was nice but Smith still drew the majority of the attention defensively.

Boldin was being Boldin before Fitz.

 

Not to the degree of the beast he became when Fitz showed up.  At least not to me!

 

#Mili

[Ravenslifer]

No he wasn't, he was being some unknown receiver who hadn't led his team in receptions. Fitz made Boldin the man he is today, matter of fact, we should thank Fitz for helping us win a ring while were at it. He didn't break any records or make the pro bowl until Fitz came along and gave him the magic potion. 

 

Fitz was drafted in 2004.  Boldin mad the pro bowl in 2003 as a rookie and finished 3rd in the nfl in receptions behind Holt and Moss.  Boldin had 101 receptions and almost 1400 yards - the next guy on the Cardinals that year had 55 receptions and about 500 yards.  Boldin holds the rookie record for most receptions and is second in rookie receiving yards, first if you're counting only post-merger stats.