Steeler Defense

[ravensfan160]

Everyone seems to be talking about how great their defense is. They especially like to point out how they are first in points allowed, passing, and rushing defense. Certainly, they deserve respect for that. They are very good. My problem is a lot of people in the media are now starting to call them one of the best EVER and I completely disagree with that. My reason is simple...the only stat that really matters is points allowed. Am I right? It doesn't matter if you sack the quarterback on the first two plays of a series if the next play he throws an 80 yard touchdown. That hasn't actually happened this season but I'm trying to make a point. Anyway, I've gone ahead and pulled up some statistics that help prove my point that while its great to lead the league in all those categories it certainly isn't the most important.

Points Allowed

2000 Ravens 165
2000 Titans 191

2008 Steelers (14 games) 192
2008 Ravens (14 games) 213

With 2 games left they're already over the points allowed by both the Ravens and Titans of 2000. Something else to consider is that figure is total points allowed which includes defensive and special teams touchdowns. I don't know the figures for the 2000 teams but as for this year Pittsburgh only has 1 return touchdown against them while we have around 5 or 6. We factor those in and they aren't even the best defense this year.

[Steeler Nation Western Md]

We have the number one defense in the leauge! Why you ask is this so great ? Well we are doing this against the hardest schedule in the leauge this year. I will bet that the 2000 titans and ravens did not face the toughest schedule in the leauge. And by the way the 78 steelers are the greastest Defense of all time. Want references check Canton.!

[rayvenfan_52]

[quote name='Steeler Nation Western Md' post='107416' date='Dec 18 2008, 08:50 AM']We have the number one defense in the leauge! Why you ask is this so great ? Well we are doing this against the hardest schedule in the leauge this year. I will bet that the 2000 titans and ravens did not face the toughest schedule in the leauge. And by the way the 78 steelers are the greastest Defense of all time. Want references check Canton.![/quote]

Before you go talk about the 78 Steelers check how old the Ravens franchise is.

Exactly. There was no Baltimore Ravens in 78.

So what have the Steelers really done in 13 years?

Ravens and Steelers both won a Super Bowl during that time.

Anything else?

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='Steeler Nation Western Md' post='107416' date='Dec 18 2008, 12:50 PM']We have the number one defense in the leauge! Why you ask is this so great ? Well we are doing this against the hardest schedule in the leauge this year. I[b] will bet that the 2000 titans and ravens did not face the toughest schedule in the leauge[/b]. And by the way the 78 steelers are the greastest Defense of all time. Want references check Canton.![/quote]

Defensive Stats (per game)

Steelers
Pass 163.30
Rush 75.80

Ravens
Pass 179.50
Rush 78.00


First, I just checked and after the game Sunday the Steelers are no longer the #1 defense against the run.

Second, I don't know if they did or not but I do know the Ravens had one of the worst offenses in recent history that year. That meant lots of 3 and outs, turnovers, and even more work for the defense. Your offense this year isn't great but its better than that.

Third, I'm not saying they aren't great because they clearly are. That said what defensive starters are on IR? Are there any? The Ravens have had 3 starters on IR for most if not all of the season (Gregg, McAlister, Landry). Gregg is one of the best nose tackels in the game and hasn't played a single snap. You don't think with him playing we would make up for the 2.2 ypg difference? How about passing? McAlister is one of the true elite cover corners and Landry a terrific safety. You don't think with them in we allow one or two fewer completitions to make up for the 16.20 ypg difference?

Bottom line is right now people are just jumping on their bandwagon. If, and I do mean if, they win the Superbowl primarily because of their defense then I will acknowledge their greatness. Until then its way too early to consider them one of the best of all time which was my original point anyway.

[5 and Counting]

This is a difficult comparison to make. Another important factor is how many times the offense turns the ball over in the opposing team's red zone. I'm not sure how to determine this but it has seemed like many of the Steelers' turnovers have occurred deep in the opponent's territory. Those result in gimme field goals or higher percentage touchdown drives. The Santonio fumble was a good example of this.

Regarding #1 rushing defense, I expect the Steelers to retake that lead. The Vikes have lost their key run stuffer, Pat Williams and they have two other Dlinemen hobbled with bad knees. They also face two of the best running teams in the Falcons and Giants. The Steelers do have to face the Titans this week which are a good running team. However, they will likely focus on shutting down the run and make Kerry Collins beat them.

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='5 and Counting' post='107427' date='Dec 18 2008, 01:16 PM'][b]This is a difficult comparison to make[/b]. Another important factor is how many times the offense turns the ball over in the opposing team's red zone. I'm not sure how to determine this but it has seemed like many of the Steelers' turnovers have occurred deep in the opponent's territory. Those result in gimme field goals or higher percentage touchdown drives. The Santonio fumble was a good example of this.[/quote]
I never wanted to start making comparison's although that's what its turned into. I only wanted to point out that they've played great but leading the league in anything other than points allowed can be misleading(which they do also but they're not among the more recent great teams in that category either). I could go a several ways with this but heres one example. How do you factor in "garbage time"? It seems the Steelers have been in a lot of close games so there haven't been much. Whereas Baltimore has for the most part either blown their opponent away or lost a close one. There are simply too many variable for yards allowed to be the only barometer for how good a defense was/is. With points allowed they either get in or they don't; make the field goal or they don't. Its very cut and dry.

[Steeler Nation Western Md]

You are right! Here are two close games that come to memory Colts 31 Ravens 3 in week Six Giants 30 - Ravens 10. Wow these were tight games at kickoff!

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='Steeler Nation Western Md' post='107428' date='Dec 18 2008, 01:21 PM']Check espn.com. click on the Nfl section from Dec 17th 2008 just two days ago! Article on page two by DJ Gallo>
Here are there rankings all time!
1. 1976 steelers
2. 1985 Chicago Da Bears
3 .2008 Pitt Steelers
4. Your beloved Balt Ravens[/quote]
Actually thats the very article that made me want to start this thread in the first place. Its all speculation. I agree with all except his pick of the Steelers because the other 3 all won Superbowls [b]because[/b] of their defense. We don't know about this years Steelers yet. If they do win it all I'm sure we will still be debating about the final ordering this time next year but at least then they deserve to be mentioned in the top group. Until that happens they are just a great defense that hasn't gone all the way yet.

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='Steeler Nation Western Md' post='107430' date='Dec 18 2008, 01:33 PM']You are right! Here are two close games that come to memory Colts 31 Ravens 3 in week Six Giants 30 - Ravens 10. Wow these were tight games at kickoff![/quote]
Wow someone thinks they're cute don't they. I said its [b]mostly[/b] been that way. Of course they all weren't going to be blowouts in our favor.

[neepo13]

[quote name='Steeler Nation Western Md' post='107416' date='Dec 18 2008, 12:50 PM']We have the number one defense in the leauge! Why you ask is this so great ? [b]Well we are doing this against the hardest schedule in the leauge this year.[/b] I will bet that the 2000 titans and ravens did not face the toughest schedule in the leauge. [b]And by the way the 78 steelers are the greastest Defense of all time. Want references check Canton[/b].![/quote]

Based on last years schedule. The 78 Steelers were good but not that good. I'd take the 00' Ravens over them because they dominated in era where the game is taylored to the offense and they had no offense worth mentioning. In 78, there probably wasnt even a such things as an illegal contact penalty, or roughing the passer. Stick that defense in its prime out there against the worse offense of today and they wouldnt look so hot.

[neepo13]

[quote name='Steeler Nation Western Md' post='107422' date='Dec 18 2008, 12:59 PM']You are wrong! The Ravens were in the leauge over 13 years ago. You just lived in a different city! CLEVELAND[/quote]

LOL. The old "your the Browns". Like we havent heard that before. Next?

[neepo13]

[quote name='Steeler Nation Western Md' post='107428' date='Dec 18 2008, 01:21 PM']Check espn.com. click on the Nfl section from Dec 17th 2008 just two days ago! Article on page two by DJ Gallo>
Here are there rankings all time!
1. 1976 steelers
2. 1985 Chicago Da Bears
3 .2008 Pitt Steelers
4. Your beloved Balt Ravens[/quote]

Oh, yeah thats real proof right there. This guy from ESPN says it so it must be true.

You just lost what little credibility you had here. Forgive me but I dont take sports networks that lead off their broadcast with headlines of what QB is dating what model seriously. You would have been better off, just giving your personal opinion and leaving it at that.

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='neepo13' post='107441' date='Dec 18 2008, 02:03 PM']Oh, yeah thats real proof right there. This guy from ESPN says it so it must be true.

You just lost what little credibility you had here. Forgive me but I dont take sports networks that lead off their broadcast with headlines of what QB is dating what model seriously. You would have been better off, just giving your personal opinion and leaving it at that.[/quote]
Haha good one neepo13.

[GermanRavensFan]

The 08 Steelrs defense is NOT the best defense ever... I think we all agree!

But we have to admit that OVERALL they are the best defense this year. That is a fact... unfortunately.

Over the last years I think the Ravens defense has clearly been better.

[Perfekt]

realistically steelers nation isnt in western md either. i do think the steelers defense this year has been good but as far as to rank them over the 2000 ravens lmao until your defense starts winning games by its self dont compare it to ours. cuz as i remeber the offense for us did nothing for almost 10 games and the defense was shutting down and scoring all the points (exception matt stover).

[Corvus]

[quote name='ravensfan160' post='107388' date='Dec 18 2008, 09:52 AM']Everyone seems to be talking about how great their defense is. They especially like to point out how they are first in points allowed, passing, and rushing defense. Certainly, they deserve respect for that. They are very good. My problem is a lot of people in the media are now starting to call them one of the best EVER and I completely disagree with that. My reason is simple...the only stat that really matters is points allowed. Am I right? It doesn't matter if you sack the quarterback on the first two plays of a series if the next play he throws an 80 yard touchdown. That hasn't actually happened this season but I'm trying to make a point. Anyway, I've gone ahead and pulled up some statistics that help prove my point that while its great to lead the league in all those categories it certainly isn't the most important.

Points Allowed

2000 Ravens 165
2000 Titans 191

2008 Steelers (14 games) 192
2008 Ravens (14 games) 213

With 2 games left they're already over the points allowed by both the Ravens and Titans of 2000. Something else to consider is that figure is total points allowed which includes defensive and special teams touchdowns. I don't know the figures for the 2000 teams but as for this year Pittsburgh only has 1 return touchdown against them while we have around 5 or 6. We factor those in and they aren't even the best defense this year.[/quote]

For the record, the Steelers d is no longer #1 against the run as I predicted. We still racked up over 100 yards against them and the 2nd best rush defense last week, the Vikings, were allowing only .4 more rushing yards per game than the Steelers and they played the Cardinals, who never run the ball...

And their defense is NOT overrated, it is an exceptional defense. Not as good as our 2000 defense as you have pointed out, but it is still a great one. I think you, just like me, are just tired of hearing all the pundits harping on it.

[Corvus]

[quote name='Steeler Nation Western Md' post='107428' date='Dec 18 2008, 01:21 PM']Check espn.com. click on the Nfl section from Dec 17th 2008 just two days ago! Article on page two by DJ Gallo>
Here are there rankings all time!
1. 1976 steelers
2. 1985 Chicago Da Bears
3 .2008 Pitt Steelers
4. Your beloved Balt Ravens[/quote]

I wouldn't listen to what DJ Gallo says, he writes for humor, even when what he comes up with isn't funny. Every time I have glanced over one of his articles, if he talks about the Ravens he makes the same "joke" about Flacco having a "unibrow." The first time I was thinking, yeah he kinda does have one, but then the next article he brings it up again and again. Point is, he isn't even good at humor so why listen to his all time defensive rankings?

[RayLew52]

Steelers DO NOT have the hardest schedule in the league. It was the hardest before the season started based on last years team records.

[5 and Counting]

[quote name='ravensfan160' post='107429' date='Dec 18 2008, 02:27 PM']I never wanted to start making comparison's although that's what its turned into. I only wanted to point out that they've played great but leading the league in anything other than points allowed can be misleading(which they do also but they're not among the more recent great teams in that category either). I could go a several ways with this but heres one example. How do you factor in "garbage time"? It seems the Steelers have been in a lot of close games so there haven't been much. Whereas Baltimore has for the most part either blown their opponent away or lost a close one. There are simply too many variable for yards allowed to be the only barometer for how good a defense was/is. With points allowed they either get in or they don't; make the field goal or they don't. Its very cut and dry.[/quote]

The 'garbage time' theory can work both ways. The other side of the argument is during garbage time, teams are grinding out the clock with short runs. You can eat up half a quarter with one or two first downs (15-20 yards of offense). When the game is close, the opposing team is doing whatever they can to drive down the field, including quick outs to the sideline to stop the clock.

Again, points against can also be skewed. A 10 yard scoring drive isn't quite the same as a 92 yard scoring drive. Any offense can get lucky and punch one in from 10 yards out, even against good defenses.

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='5 and Counting' post='107475' date='Dec 18 2008, 02:50 PM']The 'garbage time' theory can work both ways. The other side of the argument is during garbage time, teams are grinding out the clock with short runs. You can eat up half a quarter with one or two first downs (15-20 yards of offense). When the game is close, the opposing team is doing whatever they can to drive down the field, including quick outs to the sideline to stop the clock.

[b]Again, points against can also be skewed. A 10 yard scoring drive isn't quite the same as a 92 yard scoring drive. Any offense can get lucky and punch one in from 10 yards out, even against good defenses.[/b][/quote]
You make some valid points. I will say though that over the course of a 16 game season a lot of things have a way of evening themselves out. I don't think you can blame turnovers in the red zone for the reason the Steelers D have already given up 27 more points than the 2000 Ravens did all year. Besides you also have the best red zone defense so we would need to be talking about an incredible number of turnovers to make an impact.

[BmoreLAT52]

Lol, they keep talking about the steelers having the hardest schedule ever and what not...i look and theres only a couple teams they played that we havnt..the patriots? who got owned by the dolphins and is without tom brady? whats so hard?

[Sub-Zero]

the best defenses of all time continue their dominance in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl. so until then, hold off on the rankings gun jumpers!

[5 and Counting]

Going back to the 2000 Ravens season, they faced some vaunted offenses. Let's have a look, shall we:

Week 1 vs Steelers W 16-0 (QB Kent Graham, RB Richard Huntley & Jarome Bettis (injured) )
Week 2 vs Jaguars W 39-36 (QB Mark Brunnell, RB Stacey Mack) - gave up 385 yards passing and 36 points
Week 3 vs Dolphins L 6-19 (QB Jay Fiedler, RB Lamar Smith)
Week 4 vs Bungles W 37-0 (QB Scott Mitchell, RB Corey Dillon)
Week 5 vs Stains W 12-0 (QB Tim Couch, RB Travis Prentis)
Week 6 vs Jaguars W 15-10 (QB Brunell, RB Fred Taylor)
Week 7 vs Redskins L 3-10 (QB Brad Johnson, RB Stephen Davis)
Week 8 vs Titans L 6-14 (QB Steve McNair, RB Rodney Thomas, Eddie George had one carry)
Week 9 vs Steelers L 6-9 (QB Korky Stewart, RB Jarome Bettis)
Week 10 vs Bungles W 27-7 (QB Akili Smith, RB Dillon)
Week 11 vs Titans W 24-23 (QB McNair, RB George)
Week 12 vs Cowgirls W 27-0 (QB Troy Aikman, RB Emmit Smith)
Week 13 vs Stains W 44-7 (QB Spurgon Wynn (who?) and Doug Pederson (who?), RB Prentice, Jamal White)
Week 14 vs Chargers W 24-3 (QB Ryan Leaf, RB Terrell Fletcher)
Week 15 vs Cardinals W 13-7 (QB Jake "The Mistake" Plummer, RB Thomas Jones)
Week 16 vs Jets W 34-20 (QB Vinnie Testaverde, RB Curtis Martin)

Playoffs
AFCWC vs Broncos W 21-3 (QB Gus Frerotte, RB Mike Anderson)
AFC Divisional vs Titans W 24-10 (QB McNair, RB George)
AFCC vs Raiders W 16-3 (QB Rich Gannon and Bobby Hoying, RB Tyrone Wheatley)
SuperBowl vs Giants W 34-7 (QB Kerry Collins, RB Tiki Barber)

So there are some famous QB draft busts in this list, some players most have never heard of, a HOFer in his last season and a shadow of his former self (Aikman) and a handful of great players. I'm not saying the Ravens 2000 Dfense is overhyped but I think you can show various reasons why one or another defense could be the best of all time. I would say the 2008 Steelers have faced higher calibre QBs compared to the 2000 Ravens. We've shut down Tony Romo, Philip Rivers, Donavan McNabb, Eli Manning and Peyton Manning. We've also faced a few hot hands such as Jason Campbell who had a 100+ rating and 1 pick coming into the game and Matt Cassel who was coming off back-to-back 400 yard games.

[Sub-Zero]

theirs a very real chance they could end the season with two shutouts. But if you continue through the playoffs with your dominance then yes you should be considered as one of the greats. anything shorter and no ones really going to remember them except for Steeler fans and football nerds.

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='5 and Counting' post='107569' date='Dec 18 2008, 05:12 PM']Going back to the 2000 Ravens season, they faced some vaunted offenses. Let's have a look, shall we:

Week 1 vs Steelers W 16-0 (QB Kent Graham, RB Richard Huntley & Jarome Bettis (injured) )
Week 2 vs Jaguars W 39-36 (QB Mark Brunnell, RB Stacey Mack) - gave up 385 yards passing and 36 points
Week 3 vs Dolphins L 6-19 (QB Jay Fiedler, RB Lamar Smith)
Week 4 vs Bungles W 37-0 (QB Scott Mitchell, RB Corey Dillon)
Week 5 vs Stains W 12-0 (QB Tim Couch, RB Travis Prentis)
Week 6 vs Jaguars W 15-10 (QB Brunell, RB Fred Taylor)
Week 7 vs Redskins L 3-10 (QB Brad Johnson, RB Stephen Davis)
Week 8 vs Titans L 6-14 (QB Steve McNair, RB Rodney Thomas, Eddie George had one carry)
Week 9 vs Steelers L 6-9 (QB Korky Stewart, RB Jarome Bettis)
Week 10 vs Bungles W 27-7 (QB Akili Smith, RB Dillon)
Week 11 vs Titans W 24-23 (QB McNair, RB George)
Week 12 vs Cowgirls W 27-0 (QB Troy Aikman, RB Emmit Smith)
Week 13 vs Stains W 44-7 (QB Spurgon Wynn (who?) and Doug Pederson (who?), RB Prentice, Jamal White)
Week 14 vs Chargers W 24-3 (QB Ryan Leaf, RB Terrell Fletcher)
Week 15 vs Cardinals W 13-7 (QB Jake "The Mistake" Plummer, RB Thomas Jones)
Week 16 vs Jets W 34-20 (QB Vinnie Testaverde, RB Curtis Martin)

Playoffs
AFCWC vs Broncos W 21-3 (QB Gus Frerotte, RB Mike Anderson)
AFC Divisional vs Titans W 24-10 (QB McNair, RB George)
AFCC vs Raiders W 16-3 (QB Rich Gannon and Bobby Hoying, RB Tyrone Wheatley)
SuperBowl vs Giants W 34-7 (QB Kerry Collins, RB Tiki Barber)

So there are some famous QB draft busts in this list, some players most have never heard of, a HOFer in his last season and a shadow of his former self (Aikman) and a handful of great players. I'm not saying the Ravens 2000 Dfense is overhyped but I think you can show various reasons why one or another defense could be the best of all time. I would say the 2008 Steelers have faced higher calibre QBs compared to the 2000 Ravens. We've shut down Tony Romo, Philip Rivers, Donavan McNabb, Eli Manning and Peyton Manning. We've also faced a few hot hands such as Jason Campbell who had a 100+ rating and 1 pick coming into the game and Matt Cassel who was coming off back-to-back 400 yard games.[/quote]

You only seem to be mentioning the QB's and not the running backs. Thats a pretty impressive list there across the board when it comes to RB (Bettis, Barber, Dillon, Fred Taylor, Stephen Davis, Curtis Martin, Thomas Jones, Emmit Smith, Mike Anderson). But as long as you're talking QB's Mark Brunell was great back then as was McNair and we played them twice. Oh and how about shutting out Troy Aikman and Emmit Smith or beating Vinny Testaverde and Curtis Martin?

Don't try and pretend that your Steelers haven't had their easy games this season either. You guys play Cincinnati and Cleveland twice just like we have and you've played in some bad weather games which clearly favors the defense. Just so you know I'm not completely biased, last season when our defense dominated Tom Brady for much of the game I know it was more because of the 30-40 mph wind gusts than our defense.

Go ahead and try but you cannot write off what the 2000 Ravens did that easily. [b]Just let me say again that if the Steelers win the Superbowl because of their defense and in spite of their offense, I will agree they are one of the best ever but until then they are just a league leading defense and nothing more.[/b]