Predict the Week One Roster - Merged

[Cillmatic]

I will never understand the hype around KLM. Couldn't find any highlight videos. He could very well be a solid player but Some fans have been treating this guy like he's the second coming. With all this hype he better be a top 10 DE lol.

[BmoreBird22]

I will never understand the hype around KLM. Couldn't find any highlight videos. He could very well be a solid player but Some fans have been treating this guy like he's the second coming. With all this hype he better be a top 10 DE lol.

He was a second to third round prospect before the ACL tear. You can most likely find videos of him in draftbreakdown.com. not highlights, but full videos of his defensive snaps

[ravensnick]

With the first game of the seasons 59 days away and training camp around the corner, it might be fun to make some early predictions on who will and should start for the Ravens.

QB: Joe Flacco

RB: Bernard Pierce

FB: Juice

TE: Dennis Pitta

WR: Torrey Smith

WR: Steve Smith

WR: Marlon Brown/Jacoby Jones

 

LT: Eugene Monroe

LG: Kelechi Osemele

C: Jeremy Zuttah

RG: Marshall Yanda

RT: Ricky Wagner

The offensive line looks very much improved if they can get their chemistry down. Zuttah will be a huge upgrade and having a healthy guard duo is major. Wagner is a bit of a question mark, but he's a known run blocker and it's likely the Ravens have Yanda combo block with Wagner or slide a tight end to his side if he truly does struggle

DE: Chris Canty

NT: Haloti Ngata

DE: Kapron Lewis-Moore/Deangelo Tyson

OLB: Terrell Suggs

ILB: CJ Mosley

ILB: Daryl Smith

OLB: Courtney Upshaw/Dumervil

CB: Jimmy Smith

CB: Lardarius Webb

CB: Aaron Ross

FS: Darian Stewart

SS: Matt Elam

 

Couple changes. I really doubt they demote dumervil and upshaw and him were costarters last year.

[ravensnick]

I will never understand the hype around KLM. Couldn't find any highlight videos. He could very well be a solid player but Some fans have been treating this guy like he's the second coming. With all this hype he better be a top 10 DE lol.

2nd round grade coming out last year, tore his ACL. was a beast at ND

[GrimCoconut]

I will never understand the hype around KLM. Couldn't find any highlight videos. He could very well be a solid player but Some fans have been treating this guy like he's the second coming. With all this hype he better be a top 10 DE lol.

He's pretty hyped around here and I'm not sure how well he'll do but I know quite a bit about him. I'm a Notre Dame fan among other college football teams. Kaplan does a lot of things well, but most importantly, he's an excellent leader. I'd go as far to say that losing him cost them their chance to compete in the championship game against Alabama. I also feel it affected Tuitt and Nix this year. Their down performance this past season could be evidence of that.

Kaplan has good use of hands, which helps him as a pass rusher. He reminds me of Corey Redding to an extent. I'm personally not fond of him in the 4-3 much like Redding. He's got a good jump on the ball and he's pretty stout against the run considering he played RE in their 3-4 defensive system. He needs to improve his pass rush like every guy coming out of college, but he has the tools to do it. His injury is the only reason he dropped, otherwise I expect he would've gone in the second round.

[BmoreBird22]

Couple changes. I really doubt they demote dumervil and upshaw and him were costarters last year.

I was doing it on the premise of base defense against a run formation

[jimjim5]

He looked good at Ohio, has a motor. Thought he'd be making some sparks!

 

Not with those other studs in front of him.

[jimjim5]

Couple changes. I really doubt they demote dumervil and upshaw and him were costarters last year.

 

 No matter what the roster says, Upshaw is the starter and Dumeril is the situational player.

[jimjim5]

i dont think we see ngata at NT, its a strange situation with him because we know what hes capable of, but its tough to find a position for him because he just never seems to live up to his potential at any position, one day we say move him back to NT because he cant rush the passer well enough, the next day we say put him at DE so he doesnt get injured again lol. 

 

but i personally think if we see upshaw on the field, then we will see brandon wiliams and maybe jernigan, because they seem like more stout option against the run than KLM and canty

 

Surely, you can't be serious, right?

[GrimCoconut]

What good does Franks do us though? He's got 1 more year of experience than Chykie and played a whopping 14 defensive snaps last year. That doesn't really solve our lack of experience issue for depth.

I'm keeping Wenning on the roster because I don't think they want to risk losing him a la Derek Anderson awhile back.

It doesn't solve our problem at inexperienced depth behind Smith and Webb, however, it's not always about that. Corey Graham was a special teams ace and was nominated and attended the Pro Bowl for the Bears in 2011. Graham only had 87 snaps on defense through 3 games that year as well. Granted, Franks was on a team that could've really used his help in the secondary, so I'm not sure how great he'll be but it's something well have to see. I personally don't think he'll be more than ST but that could be enough depending on what the team feels we need the most out of our CB depth.

[GrimCoconut]

ST is Franks' ticket, in my opinion. Of course if he plays incredibly well at CB, we'll take it. I just think that if there's a concern about the 3rd CB, Ross has to be that guy. If Chykie or Asa convincingly win the job, that's where I can see the case for Franks over Ross because of that ST ability.

Might be crazy here but I wouldn't be surprised if we ran less nickel and had our 3 LB on the field a lot with Elam playing a nickel role.

[GrimCoconut]

I actually do see that "it" factor from Marlon. I still remember when I was at the Castle watching practice and he just jumped out to me. I'm like this kid is gonna be good. Now i'm not saying it as far as top WR 1500yds 12Tds "it". But he's definitely good enough to be a quality #2 guy.

I don 't put much into Bulter or Camp honestly. Both guys have to show and prove that being drafted late or not at all wasn't an accurate evaluation. As for the drafting of a WR, I make that statement under the presumption that guys remain healthy and Torrey stays. Obviously if something goes wrong we'll be looking for a WR no doubt. But all things going well, I don't see us targeting a

WR early honestly.

1. I don't see either happening. Much like you I think Torrey can and will thrive in a #1 role. He's gotten better every year in the NFL and I can't see the Ravens letting him get away. Also because of this, I don't see us drafting a WR high. I can't see Ozzie drafting a #2 WR high unless it's a can't miss guy.

2. Very fair point but again, I feel Marlon is the guy who will take over for Smitty either way, so his performance doesn't really factor into what we do a WR imo.

3. That's tough to say. That's like saying the Ravens will target a QB high if Joe gets injuried. Of course we would. Now Brown has had some injury issues even dating back to college, I definitely agree with it, if he gets hurt we will. But all things being healthy I say no.

4. I don't see their failures sending Ozzie into a "gotta add to wr" mode. I think if either of those guys fail to impress, you'll see a younger Vet WR added. But it won't be a huge name or something to get excited over, It'll be a guy like Louis Murphy who had some success in the NFL and may just need a better situation.

I agree with coby, he's not a #2 but he could be really good as a #3. I think there will be heavy rotation around the entire team expect for QB and the oline. Other then that guys will be rotated a lot, especially on defense.

It's not one factor that'll send Ozzie into "gotta add a WR" mode, it'll be two of those factors or more. That is what will decide it IMO. I could easily see two of those factors occurring.

[TDubbs]

Might be crazy here but I wouldn't be surprised if we ran less nickel and had our 3 LB on the field a lot with Elam playing a nickel role.

 

Hmmm ... Thats actually a very interesting concept. Arthur, CJ, and Daryl on the field at the same time w/ Elam hunting around. Smith and Webb locking down the outside. A scheme like that could certainly work against teams like the Steelers and Browns. It would put a lot of pressure on the FS though, unless we could get a deadly pass rush. 

[Inqui]

Hmmm ... Thats actually a very interesting concept. Arthur, CJ, and Daryl on the field at the same time w/ Elam hunting around. Smith and Webb locking down the outside. A scheme like that could certainly work against teams like the Steelers and Browns. It would put a lot of pressure on the FS though, unless we could get a deadly pass rush. 

The exciting thing about all three of them is that they can blitz like the blue blazes at a moment's notice (I wanted to use another adjective ) so we'd definitely have options for that kind of look.

[rmw10]

Might be crazy here but I wouldn't be surprised if we ran less nickel and had our 3 LB on the field a lot with Elam playing a nickel role.

 

I'm kind of expecting Brooks to play a role as a slot CB as well.  I think Brooks' ability to play CB could allow us to go with 5 CB's and 5 S's.

[MightyRaven]

With the first game of the seasons 59 days away and training camp around the corner, it might be fun to make some early predictions on who will and should start for the Ravens.

QB: Joe Flacco   

RB: Bernard Pierce

FB: Juice

TE: Dennis Pitta

WR: Torrey Smith

WR: Steve Smith

WR: Jacoby Jones

It's hard to leave Marlon Brown out of the starting lineup after a strong rookie showing, but he's best in the slot, the position Steve Smith will line up in. Jones also signed a fairly big contract, and that won't be just to return kicks.

LT: Eugene Monroe

LG: Kelechi Osemele

C: Jeremy Zuttah

RG: Marshall Yanda

RT: Ricky Wagner

The offensive line looks very much improved if they can get their chemistry down. Zuttah will be a huge upgrade and having a healthy guard duo is major. Wagner is a bit of a question mark, but he's a known run blocker and it's likely the Ravens have Yanda combo block with Wagner or slide a tight end to his side if he truly does struggle

DE: Chris Canty

NT: Haloti Ngata

DE: Kapron Lewis-Moore

KLM is a bit of an unknown, but reports are great from mini camp and he's likely a second or third rounder if not for the injury. The talent is there if he's healthy. He's stout against the run and can provide some push in the passing game. The only competition would be Tyson, but I think he'll be a versatile rotation player. Only other scenario I could see is Brandon Williams starting at the nose tackle spot and Ngata moving to DE.

OLB: Terrell Suggs

ILB: CJ Mosley

ILB: Daryl Smith

OLB: Courtney Upshaw

Upshaw over Dumervil will surprise some people, but Upshaw is much better against the run and it keeps Doom fresh. Mosley and Smith is going to be one heck of an athletic duo.

CB: Jimmy Smith

CB: Lardarius Webb

CB: Aaron Ross

FS: Darian Stewart

SS: Matt Elam

Brooks appears to be just learning the defense for now and not really in a position to start right out of the gates. It'll be no surprise if he takes over later, but not right now. I think Ross wins the third corner spot due to his experience with Spags and his experience overall

 

 

The only changes i would make is lorenezo taliaferro start instead of pierce and you have 12 starting defenders so i dont think ross will start. I think tyson will beat out KLM. I think tucker will start along with sam koch as punter

[BmoreBird22]

 

 

The only changes i would make is lorenezo taliaferro start instead of pierce and you have 12 starting defenders so i dont think ross will start. I think tyson will beat out KLM. I think tucker will start along with sam koch as punter

 

I should have 12 offensive players starting as well. It's more to say who I think the third wide receiver will be and who the nickel corner will be. An interesting thought I've been toying with for nickel corner is Terrence Brooks, who has experience playing corner.

 

Why Taliefero over Pierce? 

 

Tyson is a player I really like, and I was torn between him and KLM

[Inqui]

I have to say I disagree with merging these threads. They're similar, but talking about distinctly different things and it's kinda tough to keep track of who's talking about the starting roster and who's talking about the 53-man squad.

[rmw10]

I have to say I disagree with merging these threads. They're similar, but talking about distinctly different things and it's kinda tough to keep track of who's talking about the starting roster and who's talking about the 53-man squad.

 

I thought so as well, as that was the only reason I posted the 53 man thread.  I have a feeling there are going to be a lot more 53 man threads.

[JoeyFlex5]

Surely, you can't be serious, right?

i am, and dont call me shirley. 

 

but really, the past 3 years we have talked over and over about moving ngata to his more natural position... but what is his natural position? because since he signed his contract hes played DE, DT, and NT, and he has been half the player he used to be, regardless of what position/role we put him in. he is still one of the better starters in the league, but arthur jones was better for us last year, and he was better in the super bowl run, and he is young and just getting started, we had to let him walk because of ngatas cap hit. not saying we have a better answer on the roster now, and not saying we really need one, but we could get ngatas level of production for much cheaper.

[JoeyFlex5]

I personally see it as the following:

Flacco, T. Smith, S. Smith, M. Brown/Jones, Pitta, Daniels, Juszczyk. Rice/Pierce. First of all, I think we're going to try to incorporate more 2 TE sets but I think we're going to fail to do it due to poor performance from Daniels. I see Juszczyk replacing him midway through the season. I see Brown and Jones splitting that #3 job depending on what we want from the #3 at that time. At the end of the season I expect WR and TE to still be an issue, leading us to pave a high priority on fixing it next off-season.

OL is pretty simple and seems unanimous. Monroe, KO, Zuttah, Yanda, Wagner.

As for defense, I think our starting DL will be Ngata, Williams, Canty with heavy substitutions. I think by the end of the year Tyson will be pushing to start. On pass rushers, Suggs will start and we'll likely see Dumervil in 3-4 packages with McPhee in 4-3 packages.

I expect our LB to consist of Smith, Brown and Mosley all starting and being used to support the run and our efforts to stop it. I think all three could start on certain formations.

dumervil played 4-3 DE most of his career and he even bulked up this offseason, i dont see why mcphee needs to replace him in 4-3 packages, aside from that though this sounds pretty spot on to what i was thinking. 

 

and on the subject of our LB's, i would love and hate to see us change from a hybrid scheme to a base 4-3, its gonna be hard not to if arthur brown and mosley are what we were hoping, and all signs point to them being the real deal, so why should scheme keep one of ur best players off the field? run a 4-3 and get all 3 of them on the field

[Ravensfan23]

dumervil played 4-3 DE most of his career and he even bulked up this offseason, i dont see why mcphee needs to replace him in 4-3 packages, aside from that though this sounds pretty spot on to what i was thinking. 

 

and on the subject of our LB's, i would love and hate to see us change from a hybrid scheme to a base 4-3, its gonna be hard not to if arthur brown and mosley are what we were hoping, and all signs point to them being the real deal, so why should scheme keep one of ur best players off the field? run a 4-3 and get all 3 of them on the field

 

We are definitely more suited to run the 4-3 now then in year's past imo, but with the way we run our base defense I'Dm not sure it matters anyway. Either way you are taking somebody off the field or forced to play them out of position sotospeak, which is why the coach basically cross train the entire front 7 as much as they can. I think weighing the pros and cons of a 4-3 switch would be fun.

 

I think the biggest thing right now is that both Art and CJ have to prove they are worthy of being on the field a lot. Art definitely didn't show that last year. He had his moments but nothing that made you say he's ready to dominate or anything. So he has a lot to so this year and CJ as a rookie definitely has a lot to prove. Once those guys prove they are ready to see the field on a consistent basis the coaches will have no choice but to find a way to keep them on the field.

[MightyRaven]

I should have 12 offensive players starting as well. It's more to say who I think the third wide receiver will be and who the nickel corner will be. An interesting thought I've been toying with for nickel corner is Terrence Brooks, who has experience playing corner.

 

Why Taliefero over Pierce? 

 

Tyson is a player I really like, and I was torn between him and KLM

Pierce is good but what i have seen from taliafero is just a bit better than pierce. I think LT is in the mold of jamal lewis who was really good for the ravens.

[Alexir]

Something like this is what I would hope for.

 

 

 

Quarterback (2):

Joe Flacco,  Keith Wenning

 

Running Back (4):

Bernard Pierce, Justin Forsett, Lorenzo Taliaferro, Ray Rice

 

 

 

 

Fullback (1):

Kyle Juszczyk

 

 

 

Wide Receiver (6):

Torrey Smith, Steve Smith, Marlon Brown, Jacoby Jones, Michael Campanaro, Gerrard Sheppard*

 

He will probably not make the team but he is Towson Alumni, had to do it.

 

Tight End (3):

Dennis Pitta, Owen Daniels, Crockett Gillmore

 

 

 

Offensive Line (9):

Eugene Monroe, Kelechi Osemele, Jeremy Zuttah, Marshal Yanda, Rick Wagner, Ryan Jensen, John Urschel,  Will Rackley, James Hurst

 

Defensive Line (6):

Haloti Ngata,  Brandon Williams, DeAngelo Tyson, Kapron Lewis-Moore, Timmy Jernigan, Brent Urban

 

 

 

 

 

Inside Linebacker (4):

In: Daryl Smith, CJ Mosley, Arthur Brown, Josh Bynes

 

Outside Linebacker (5):

Terrell Suggs, Elvis Dumervil, Courtney Upshaw, Pernell McPhee, John Simon

 

Cornerback (6):

Lardarius Webb, Jimmy Smith, Chykie Brown, Asa Jackson, Aaron Ross, Sammy Seamster

 

 

 

Safety (4):

Matt Elam, Darian Stewart, Terrence Brooks, Jeromy Miles

 

 

 

Special Teams (3):

Justin Tucker, Sam Koch, Morgan Cox

 

[Ravensfan23]

 

Something like this is what I would hope for.

 

 

 

Quarterback (2):

Joe Flacco,  Keith Wenning

 

Running Back (4):

Bernard Pierce, Justin Forsett, Lorenzo Taliaferro, Ray Rice

 

 

 

 

Fullback (1):

Kyle Juszczyk

 

 

 

Wide Receiver (6):

Torrey Smith, Steve Smith, Marlon Brown, Jacoby Jones, Michael Campanaro, Gerrard Sheppard*

 

He will probably not make the team but he is Towson Alumni, had to do it.

 

Tight End (3):

Dennis Pitta, Owen Daniels, Crockett Gillmore

 

 

 

Offensive Line (9):

Eugene Monroe, Kelechi Osemele, Jeremy Zuttah, Marshal Yanda, Rick Wagner, Ryan Jensen, John Urschel,  Will Rackley, James Hurst

 

Defensive Line (6):

Haloti Ngata,  Brandon Williams, DeAngelo Tyson, Kapron Lewis-Moore, Timmy Jernigan, Brent Urban

 

 

 

 

 

Inside Linebacker (4):

In: Daryl Smith, CJ Mosley, Arthur Brown, Josh Bynes

 

Outside Linebacker (5):

Terrell Suggs, Elvis Dumervil, Courtney Upshaw, Pernell McPhee, John Simon

 

Cornerback (6):

Lardarius Webb, Jimmy Smith, Chykie Brown, Asa Jackson, Aaron Ross, Sammy Seamster

 

 

 

Safety (4):

Matt Elam, Darian Stewart, Terrence Brooks, Jeromy Miles

 

 

 

Special Teams (3):

Justin Tucker, Sam Koch, Morgan Cox

 

 

 

interesting. I completely agree with the QBs. Although I think we both are in the minority here, but both Harbs and Kubes has shown they aren't afraid to go with a rookie backup QB, so it'll all be up to Wenning to win the spot.

 

Nobody is giving Shep a chance but I really like the kid. It has nothing to do with him playing at Towson, I just think the kid is really talented. I've heard a lot about Bulter and he seems to be the favorite among the non locks(I think Camp is a lock) to make the cut, but I'd definitely keep a watchful eye on Sheppard. I was most impressed with Brown, Sheppard and Mellette when I went out to camp last year. He seems to have put in a ton of work this offseason and I can't wait to see him out at the Castle in a couple weeks.

 

I think the competition for depth at the oline will be much better then most anticipate. I'm very interested in seeing how both Gino and A.Q adapt to Kubes zbs after having some exposure last year. Rackley is a former starter who could definitely play a key role should we have to move KO out to RT for any reason. Urschel and Jensen are other guys who can provide depth inside and Jensen was said to look good at RT as well. Then you have the dancing bears outside. I've heard good things about Hurst, Graham and Van Sloten. So it'll be interesting to see those young guys work. If nothing else the 2nd and 3rd team offenses should be able to get good work in the preseason.

 

I could definitely see Canty cut, but it depends on how quickly those young guys can start performing consistently. Canty wasn't all that impressive last year, but he was good enough to think he can fit into a rotation this year. Without Canty we are basically Ngata and a group of 1st and 2nd year players. That's a lot of inexperience.

 

I know the #3 CB is a big concern for many but not as much for me. I actually think we could have gone with either Brown or Ace without the addition of Ross and Franks but I'll definitely take them. It's so hard not to go with Ross as that #3 CB given his history and track record, but my horse in the race is Ace. I really like Asa as a ST guy and a cover CB. He just always seems to put himself in position to make a play. I feel if not for his off field issues and a couple injury concerns he would have be a much better part of this defense over the last 2 years.

 

I think Sam Koch will definitely have some competition from Leone this year and it'll force Sam to get back to his consistent ways. I honestly haven't been as impressed with Koch over the last 2 years or so. So Leone could either be the new Punter or do enough to push Koch into being back to his usual form. I'll be keeping a eye on the kid to see how much he pushes Koch.

[jimjim5]

i am, and dont call me shirley. 

 

but really, the past 3 years we have talked over and over about moving ngata to his more natural position... but what is his natural position? because since he signed his contract hes played DE, DT, and NT, and he has been half the player he used to be, regardless of what position/role we put him in. he is still one of the better starters in the league, but arthur jones was better for us last year, and he was better in the super bowl run, and he is young and just getting started, we had to let him walk because of ngatas cap hit. not saying we have a better answer on the roster now, and not saying we really need one, but we could get ngatas level of production for much cheaper.

However remember that Ngata is always double teamed - injured or not. This frees up LB's. That is why you don't see his impact as much as Brown or Redding when they were here as Ravens.

[JoeyFlex5]

However remember that Ngata is always double teamed - injured or not. This frees up LB's. That is why you don't see his impact as much as Brown or Redding when they were here as Ravens.

i realize this, but the best DT on a 3-4 often is double teamed, thats what a 3-4 defense is built on, so ngata being double teamed isnt much more impressive than any other 3 man front with a solid NT that requires double teams, what made ngata special was that he pulled double teams, AND a dedicated chip block on nearly all snaps, and still won, he simply doesnt win those matchups anymore, he forced TE's and HB's to stay near the line instead of breaking off on a route. he still frees up our LB's but he used to do much more. 

 

one thing i will say is still impressive is that he draws those double teams from any position, on any snap, in any formation, DT, NT, 3-4 DE and 4-3 DE he is always gonna draw a double, the difference is he doesnt win those matchups the way he used to. 

 

still love ngata it just seems like he doesnt have much love or dedication for the game, we dont hear anything about ngata working in the offseason to improve his conditioning, suggs changes it up every year to keep himself healthy and in shape, ray was adjusting to his old age by originally putting on weight to fight off injury, then losing weight to add a step to his game when he lost his speed, ngata just does the same old thing year in and year out.

[BSHU_Miami]

i realize this, but the best DT on a 3-4 often is double teamed, thats what a 3-4 defense is built on, so ngata being double teamed isnt much more impressive than any other 3 man front with a solid NT that requires double teams, what made ngata special was that he pulled double teams, AND a dedicated chip block on nearly all snaps, and still won, he simply doesnt win those matchups anymore, he forced TE's and HB's to stay near the line instead of breaking off on a route. he still frees up our LB's but he used to do much more.

one thing i will say is still impressive is that he draws those double teams from any position, on any snap, in any formation, DT, NT, 3-4 DE and 4-3 DE he is always gonna draw a double, the difference is he doesnt win those matchups the way he used to.

still love ngata it just seems like he doesnt have much love or dedication for the game, we dont hear anything about ngata working in the offseason to improve his conditioning, suggs changes it up every year to keep himself healthy and in shape, ray was adjusting to his old age by originally putting on weight to fight off injury, then losing weight to add a step to his game when he lost his speed, ngata just does the same old thing year in and year out.

There has been plenty ngata workout videos and he looks to be in top shape this offseason though

[JoeyFlex5]

There has been plenty ngata workout videos and he looks to be in top shape this offseason though

yea i have noticed that but its also a first lol. maybe he knows with his cap hit that his leash has gotten alot shorter this season? if thats the case then its another reason for me to lose some love for the guy, everyone can agree that he may have just stopped worrying about hard work after he got his contract, and if suddenly hes working hard again, it sort of just validates all that.

[Ravensfan23]

yea i have noticed that but its also a first lol. maybe he knows with his cap hit that his leash has gotten alot shorter this season? if thats the case then its another reason for me to lose some love for the guy, everyone can agree that he may have just stopped worrying about hard work after he got his contract, and if suddenly hes working hard again, it sort of just validates all that.

 

sometimes there is a simply answer for things and there isn't a need to put much thought into it. It's very possible that the reason Ngata is able to work really hard this offseason is because for the first time in 3 seasons he's not dealing with some type of rehab that limited his workouts in the offseason.

 

I find I interesting how people always want football players to be tough and play through injury, but rarely factor in injury for poor play. Now i'm not saying all of Ngata's struggles have come because of injury, but the guy has dealt with injury the past 2-3 years and when you are in the trenches it's tough to play at less then 100% all the times. Ngata's game has always been about power, explosion, quickness and strength. When you taken anyone of those attributes out of his game, he's just an above average guy. He's said to be 100% this year, so lets see what the big fella does with a number group of young guys around him.