Who's the Better Ravens Coach: Billick or Harbaugh?

[redrum52]

First you'll have to define what you view as a bust

With the exception of Torrey the other wrs we drafted were 4th or 5th rd

It doesn't appear that there's been any real push to acquire wrs like before

Besides Clayton who else was taken high with Boller? Yamon Figurs in the 3rd?

[K-Dog]

I see Boller mentioned a lot with Billick.

 

Check out Billicks comments on Boller here.  Pretty interesting....

[PolishRifle]

I see Boller mentioned a lot with Billick.

 

Check out Billicks comments on Boller here.  Pretty interesting....

 

This whole discussion kinda shows, what a huge deal getting Joe Flacco really is for this franchise.

[The Raven]

Instead of responding with a snide remark like I usually do, I put some thought into this.

 

If Billick got a capable QB to work with, I think he would have been a good coach and he may even still be here. The system works. See his time in Minnesota. Not saying Billick didn't have shortfalls, because he did, but give him Flacco and he would have been better.

 

You could make the case that Ozzie deserves more of the blame for 2002-2007 than Billick. It's not all Billick's fault that we had so little offensive talent. Could he have developed players better? Sure, but not many players can actually be developed. We had a QB carousel because nobody had talent. Boller got so many chances not because Billick was obsessed with him, but because he showed flashes of talent. Look at his 2005 game against the Packers. He had talent. What he lacked was, you guessed it, weapons. Our offensive line wasn't even THAT good. We had no receivers. 

 

I'm not saying this definitively, and I know this is an unpopular theory, but you could make the case that Ozzie had more influence on the dark ages than Boller and Billick. 

 

I do think Harbaugh is the better coach, but Billick could have been better with a stronger supporting cast.

[Purple Punishment]

Harbaugh. Hands down. Billick did get us a Super Bowl but Harbs came in and said this ship is running my way and we are going to put team first. That strength to change the atmosphere of a locker room in such a short time is mesmerizing.

Not to mention that he took us to 3 AFCCGs and won a Super Bowl for Baltimore. He will have this team of youngsters ready for a deep run this season.

[ravensdan]

Hilarious if anything you'd accuse people of becoming fans after 2k when billick and baltimore struggled at showing success back to back years

To say that people pick the consistency of the harbaugh tenure over billick because they weren't around is just dumb.

If you were around at the time and you don't know and understand what billick did to completely change the perception and create a winning culture in Baltimore then that is just dumb.

I love harbaugh and I like what he's done for this team, but billick was starting from a much different place and had A lot more obstacles to overcome.

[K-Dog]

I say there is no argument if Billick had a QB with more talent he would have been better off but like any thing there is a season. I dont know for sure if Billick would still be here or not.

[jaege]

By that logic a good coach could have fixed Boller's happy feet, alas history shows us you can't teach composure to a QB who is has none. The reports on Flacco pre-draft were along the lines of "poised under pressure" or "rarely gets rattled" etc etc, so the only thing he had in common with Boller was the cannon.

 

Also, last season was the first where Harbaugh had complete control, a team he coached and formed over 6 years by removing anyone who didn't buy into his philosophy and culture. We went 8-8.

 

 

You can hardly blame the 8-8 season on Harbs. We lost a lot of talent that post SB, and not all of it was Harbs cleaning house. Lewis and Birk retired, Reed should have retired, Boldin was a foolish money thing. None of that can be blamed on Harbs. This year he will also have complete control. Lets see how this season plays out. I expect you will be eating your words.

[Tank 92]

I always felt like once he fumbled the QB situation and couldn't get it back he just played the figurehead and went along for the ride, it's hard to look like an offensive guru with no QB.

 

As far as the ideal coaching philosophy I think it falls somewhere between both, you can't be too relaxed like Billick because then theres no consistency or discipline at game time, and you can't be too strict like Harbaugh where players walk on eggshells and stage mutinies.

Do you really think Harbs is that structured? I think the mutiny thing was way overblown. And considering Pollard was front and center, it seems even more bogus. As intense as Bernie is, he's always been the troubled child.

I have to say, I likes me some Harbaugh.

[ravensnick]

Harbs, no even debatable.

[Tank 92]

Instead of responding with a snide remark like I usually do, I put some thought into this.

 

If Billick got a capable QB to work with, I think he would have been a good coach and he may even still be here. The system works. See his time in Minnesota. Not saying Billick didn't have shortfalls, because he did, but give him Flacco and he would have been better.

 

You could make the case that Ozzie deserves more of the blame for 2002-2007 than Billick. It's not all Billick's fault that we had so little offensive talent. Could he have developed players better? Sure, but not many players can actually be developed. We had a QB carousel because nobody had talent. Boller got so many chances not because Billick was obsessed with him, but because he showed flashes of talent. Look at his 2005 game against the Packers. He had talent. What he lacked was, you guessed it, weapons. Our offensive line wasn't even THAT good. We had no receivers. 

 

I'm not saying this definitively, and I know this is an unpopular theory, but you could make the case that Ozzie had more influence on the dark ages than Boller and Billick. 

 

I do think Harbaugh is the better coach, but Billick could have been better with a stronger supporting cast.

Here's the thing...... Billick pushed to bring in Elvis, and I'm sure had a strong vote on Boller. IMO, he blew a hole in the hull when Elvis entered the building. What a horrible move!

I guess you can say Boller lacked weapons. But with Jamal in the game, you or I could probably get open. And he had Heap. I think Kyle was just missing the "win gene".

[Injayen]

Easy choice...its Harbaugh. Billick had arguably the best defense of all time with little help from the offense (ex: Seattle Seahawks) when they won the superbowl. Harbaugh had a hot offense (at the time) and a mediocre defense (mostly due to injury though). The 2000 Ravens defense is far better than the 2012 Ravens offense.

 

Billick was 80-64 in 9 seasons with 1 superbowl and 2 division titles

 

Harbaugh is 62-34 in 6 seasons with 1 superbowl and 2 division titles

 

Now saying that Billick never had a true franchise quaterback cant apply if you believe in the theory that Flacco has always been carried by a stout defense. If Steve McNair can go 13-3 and Trent dilfer can go 12-4 when being "carried" then this theory cannot be applied.

[K-Dog]

 

Billick was 80-64 in 9 seasons with 1 superbowl and 2 division titles

 

Harbaugh is 62-34 in 6 seasons with 1 superbowl and 2 division titles

 

 

 

Who is good at math?

What percentage of games are wins for each of these ?

[BloodRaven]

You can hardly blame the 8-8 season on Harbs. We lost a lot of talent that post SB, and not all of it was Harbs cleaning house. Lewis and Birk retired, Reed should have retired, Boldin was a foolish money thing. None of that can be blamed on Harbs. This year he will also have complete control. Lets see how this season plays out. I expect you will be eating your words.

 

Why is it when Flacco and Harbaugh get all the credit for success they get none of the blame for failure? teams lose and replace players all the time and it's not an acceptable excuse to lose, the next man steps up. Do you think Harbaugh put his hands up and said "Well it wasn't my fault", of course not.

 

If he didn't have control of the team when we won the SB despite a player revolt or last season when we went 8-8 then when does he have control? only when we win?

[K-Dog]

Win as a team loose as a team.

[HoldingCall]

Who is the better Ravens's coach has multiple things to consider.

Example: 

which coach had the better supporting  coordinators, position coaches, assistants and staff?  

which coach developed a sense of team unity and pride?

which coach was better in the locker room and better with game day decisions, etc?

which coach makes the better administrator?

which coach is more knowledgeable of the game?

does having a father who coached and a brother that played have any bearing?

 

I believe each have their strengths and weakness and neither is/was better in all areas that can be graded. From our position as fans we have no way of judging some areas without having locker room, practice field, or classroom access. However, looking at it from a distance while Harbaugh is still the coach it would appear Harbs has the slight advantage.

[Harverjan]

Who is good at math?

What percentage of games are wins for each of these ?

 

Billick had 55,55% wins and Harbaugh 64,58% but Habaugh can still improve or worsen his stats.

[The Raven]

Here's the thing...... Billick pushed to bring in Elvis, and I'm sure had a strong vote on Boller. IMO, he blew a hole in the hull when Elvis entered the building. What a horrible move!

I guess you can say Boller lacked weapons. But with Jamal in the game, you or I could probably get open. And he had Heap. I think Kyle was just missing the "win gene".

 

1. It was a good idea to bring in Elvis. It's misguided to say it was a bad idea because he didn't live up to the potential. He was a clear improvement over Dilfer, at the time. You can't blame Billick and Ozzie for that.

 

2. Boller was a bad move, but even he had potential. He wasn't in a good situation by any means. Ozzie made a mistake by throwing him in without providing an adequate veteran to first lead the way. Boller wasn't ready, and forcing him to start before he was ready hurt his development. He had less to work with (offensively) than Flacco did in his rookie year.

 

3. An oft-injured TE and an overrated RB who got yards because of the volume of carries are not weapons fit for a good passing game. Who were his WRs for his first three years? They were nobodies. 

[RaineV1]

Overall, I do think Harbs is the better coach. The team just seems to play consistantly good under him to the point that even at their worst, they still didn't have a losing record.  However, I do respect the group the Billick put together and how the team went from a laughing stock to a regular contender under him.

[Tank 92]

1. It was a good idea to bring in Elvis. It's misguided to say it was a bad idea because he didn't live up to the potential. He was a clear improvement over Dilfer, at the time. You can't blame Billick and Ozzie for that.

 

2. Boller was a bad move, but even he had potential. He wasn't in a good situation by any means. Ozzie made a mistake by throwing him in without providing an adequate veteran to first lead the way. Boller wasn't ready, and forcing him to start before he was ready hurt his development. He had less to work with (offensively) than Flacco did in his rookie year.

 

3. An oft-injured TE and an overrated RB who got yards because of the volume of carries are not weapons fit for a good passing game. Who were his WRs for his first three years? They were nobodies. 

 

 

Well, we obviously have differing opinions here.

 

The majority thought it was an odd and risky move to ditch Dilfer for Grbac. History proved them correct.

 

Boller didn't fail because he played before he was ready, he just proved not to be an NFL franchise QB. He was a gamer, but was missing the instincts, much like Tony Banks, to be a consistent winner.  

 

Jamal Lewis overrated?  Lewis was a beast of a runner that plowed for yards even though opponents stacked the box most plays. The year he led the NFL he averaged 5.3 ypa and had 14 TDs. Stellar no matter how you slice it.

[K-Dog]

Jamal was a beast. Any one who claims otherwise has Play-Doh for brains.

[BloodRaven]

Well, we obviously have differing opinions here.

 

The majority thought it was an odd and risky move to ditch Dilfer for Grbac. History proved them correct.

 

Boller didn't fail because he played before he was ready, he just proved not to be an NFL franchise QB. He was a gamer, but was missing the instincts, much like Tony Banks, to be a consistent winner.  

 

Jamal Lewis overrated?  Lewis was a beast of a runner that plowed for yards even though opponents stacked the box most plays. The year he led the NFL he averaged 5.3 ypa and had 14 TDs. Stellar no matter how you slice it.

 

The move was risky because Dilfer had built a rapport with the offense and proved himself to be a capable game manager, that doesn't change the fact Grbac was a better QB. Every move has associated risk but you always want to upgrade when the opportunity presents itself.

 

The real interesting thing about the Grbac move is we basically swapped him for Priest Holmes, so while Holmes went on to be a 3 time All-pro in KC, our new Pro Bowl QB from KC suddenly found himself on the unemployment line. They didn't fail us, we failed to use them correctly which has become one of the hallmarks of our offense.

[The Raven]

Well, we obviously have differing opinions here.

 

The majority thought it was an odd and risky move to ditch Dilfer for Grbac. History proved them correct.

 

Boller didn't fail because he played before he was ready, he just proved not to be an NFL franchise QB. He was a gamer, but was missing the instincts, much like Tony Banks, to be a consistent winner.  

 

Jamal Lewis overrated?  Lewis was a beast of a runner that plowed for yards even though opponents stacked the box most plays. The year he led the NFL he averaged 5.3 ypa and had 14 TDs. Stellar no matter how you slice it.

 

Jamal was a beast. Any one who claims otherwise has Play-Doh for brains.

 

His career 4.2 YPC average is extremely beast-like. After his 5.3 average in 2003, he never went above 4.4. It was 4.3 in 04 and 3.5 in 05. Beastly! He lost his luster after 2003 and never shined again. So I guess I should clarify: Jamal was a beast until 2004, and then he became an extremely overrated back. 

 

It's a moot point, though. I just think Ozzie had more to do with those failures than most fans think, and I think Billick didn't always get a fair shake in those years. He had zilch to work with on offense. So, to relate this to the thread, he could have been a better coach than Harbs if he had similar talent to work with. It's difficult to judge Billick when Harbaugh has had the good fortune to benefit directly from a  few of Ozzie's better drafts whereas Billick didn't.

[redrum52]

His career 4.2 YPC average is extremely beast-like. After his 5.3 average in 2003, he never went above 4.4. It was 4.3 in 04 and 3.5 in 05. Beastly! He lost his luster after 2003 and never shined again. So I guess I should clarify: Jamal was a beast until 2004, and then he became an extremely overrated back.

It's a moot point, though. I just think Ozzie had more to do with those failures than most fans think, and I think Billick didn't always get a fair shake in those years. He had zilch to work with on offense. So, to relate this to the thread, he could have been a better coach than Harbs if he had similar talent to work with. It's difficult to judge Billick when Harbaugh has had the good fortune to benefit directly from a few of Ozzie's better drafts whereas Billick didn't.

Your second point about Ozzie is what I was trying to make without actually calling him out. People will mention Flaccos lack of weapons but Boller had it worse. You were also allowed more freedom defensively. Ozzie failed MISERABLY trying to put together an offense during Billicks time and was still able to win a SB. He also did it the year after the incident with tempers flaring, but I think that might have aided the team. He helped shape the identity of this team.

[PolishRifle]

Why is it when Flacco and Harbaugh get all the credit for success they get none of the blame for failure? teams lose and replace players all the time and it's not an acceptable excuse to lose, the next man steps up. Do you think Harbaugh put his hands up and said "Well it wasn't my fault", of course not.

 

If he didn't have control of the team when we won the SB despite a player revolt or last season when we went 8-8 then when does he have control? only when we win?

 

For the success that Flacco and Harbaugh had in this league, they are both ridiculously underrated even among the fanbase. We were speculating whether or not the rumors about Steve Bisciotti calling the shots during the Kubiak hiring, that Mike Preston fabricated, are actually true or not, not a while ago. 

Most of the credit for the teams success usually went to Ray Lewis. Atleast that's my experience listening and reading what the media and many of the fans are claiming. We won the SB, because Ray's retirement inspired us to. Without Ray the team lacks leadership. Without Ray there are offseason incidents. Ray this and Ray that.

Lewis was a great player, but the perception of him never changed after the 2000 SB campaign, even as his play sharply declined in his last couple seasons. The Ravens were always considered to be "his team" and now that he's gone, we don't even garner the little positive attention from the league that we originally had. 

 

His career 4.2 YPC average is extremely beast-like. After his 5.3 average in 2003, he never went above 4.4. It was 4.3 in 04 and 3.5 in 05. Beastly! He lost his luster after 2003 and never shined again. So I guess I should clarify: Jamal was a beast until 2004, and then he became an extremely overrated back. 

 

It's a moot point, though. I just think Ozzie had more to do with those failures than most fans think, and I think Billick didn't always get a fair shake in those years. He had zilch to work with on offense. So, to relate this to the thread, he could have been a better coach than Harbs if he had similar talent to work with. It's difficult to judge Billick when Harbaugh has had the good fortune to benefit directly from a  few of Ozzie's better drafts whereas Billick didn't.

 

2000 was just one season, though. All those all time great one-season defenses turn out to be extremely flukey and go just as fast as they came. If you look at the entirety of Billick's carreer in Baltimore, the Ravens were never true SB contenders for the most part outside of that one season. While the Harbs era saw us reach the AFCCG a couple times. Heck, if Lee Evans holds on to the ball, we could've reached the SB a whole season earlier. That's how close we came, even before winning it all.

[jimjim5]

Really?? I've been around for both of their tenures in full, and it is very clear

 

[Tank 92]

For the success that Flacco and Harbaugh had in this league, they are both ridiculously underrated even among the fanbase. We were speculating whether or not the rumors about Steve Bisciotti calling the shots during the Kubiak hiring, that Mike Preston fabricated, are actually true or not, not a while ago. 

Most of the credit for the teams success usually went to Ray Lewis. Atleast that's my experience listening and reading what the media and many of the fans are claiming. We won the SB, because Ray's retirement inspired us to. Without Ray the team lacks leadership. Without Ray there are offseason incidents. Ray this and Ray that.

Lewis was a great player, but the perception of him never changed after the 2000 SB campaign, even as his play sharply declined in his last couple seasons. The Ravens were always considered to be "his team" and now that he's gone, we don't even garner the little positive attention from the league that we originally had. 

 

 

 

2000 was just one season, though. All those all time great one-season defenses turn out to be extremely flukey and go just as fast as they came. If you look at the entirety of Billick's carreer in Baltimore, the Ravens were never true SB contenders for the most part outside of that one season. While the Harbs era saw us reach the AFCCG a couple times. Heck, if Lee Evans holds on to the ball, we could've reached the SB a whole season earlier. That's how close we came, even before winning it all.

 

 

Well said, on both points.

[BloodRaven]

For the success that Flacco and Harbaugh had in this league, they are both ridiculously underrated even among the fanbase. We were speculating whether or not the rumors about Steve Bisciotti calling the shots during the Kubiak hiring, that Mike Preston fabricated, are actually true or not, not a while ago. 

Most of the credit for the teams success usually went to Ray Lewis. Atleast that's my experience listening and reading what the media and many of the fans are claiming. We won the SB, because Ray's retirement inspired us to. Without Ray the team lacks leadership. Without Ray there are offseason incidents. Ray this and Ray that.

Lewis was a great player, but the perception of him never changed after the 2000 SB campaign, even as his play sharply declined in his last couple seasons. The Ravens were always considered to be "his team" and now that he's gone, we don't even garner the little positive attention from the league that we originally had.

 

My main point is that when Harbaugh and Flacco are given sole credit for our successes it seems like they're never responsible for our failures either. What is your counterargument? that they're underrated? thats subjective too. I remember half of the media focus about Ray heading into the SB was pure witchhunt.

[Poes Crows]

I'm going Billick

 

Harbs had a good run with a good group....lets see what he does in the next 5 years though.

[ravensnick]

I'm going Billick

 

Harbs had a good run with a good group....lets see what he does in the next 5 years though.

Billick constantly underachieved and was considered an offensive/qb guru, but could produce neither for us. The only reason we won the SB or were even half decent under his reign was the defense. Its really not even comparable to go the AFC Championship (and losing to the SB winners) first year with rookie coach and rookie QB, going to the AFC Championship 2 more times after that, winning the division twice, going to the playoffs for 5 straight years, and winning a SB.