Who's the Better Ravens Coach: Billick or Harbaugh?

[SeaHawk]

The disgust comes from how we lost games. The Bills game was given away. A pick 6 against the Bears, defensive and ST collapse against the Steelers and that god awful Browns game. A lot of these were very winnable.

Someone else mentioned the offense needing to be rebuilt for Harbs. Well thats not so difficult when you hit on a qb, RB and LT in one off season to add with a good rb in Willis, Heap at TE and Mason outside. For the most part the rest of the line was secure.

 

Only thing is, my friend, is that Billick did try to get an offense going, and failed miserably. He tried drafting QB's, and WR's, but he could not develop them. Who's to say that Flacco would be a Super Bowl MVP or Ray Rice would have been a solid RB without Harbaugh's coaching? You act as though Billick didn't have a shot to coach his players up at QB/RB...

[redrum52]

Last two years billick had McNair

So was McNair even that late in his career worse than a rookie flacco?

Yes. Flacco with a bad leg or hip essentially did the same thing as McNair against the Colts in the playoffs.

[BloodRaven]

Oh, so Harbs didn't just win because of Billick's players? What a concept.

 

That wasn't a counterargument, just adding information you omitted. A franchize QB changes things, see: Jim Caldwell.

[Tiz]

Yes. Flacco with a bad leg or hip essentially did the same thing as McNair against the Colts in the playoffs.

What a heartbreaking loss

[Ravenseconbeast]

Both had their share of flaws, but Harbaugh would top Bilick.

But give credit to where credit is due, bilick raised the standard of ravens very high. If it weren't for him, this franchise could've been the next Bengals/browns.

[BmoreBird22]

That wasn't a counterargument, just adding information you omitted. A franchize QB changes things, see: Jim Caldwell.

But part of that goes into coaching. Yes, a lot of it falls on whether or not the player can play or whether or not they're motivated, but the coach also has to help them take the necessary steps and make the jumps. It's not like the Ravens didn't try to add lots of quarterbacks during Billick's tenure. 

Maybe Harbaugh got lucky, but it's more likely that he just developed Joe much better if you see how much he's grown since his rookie year.

[flynismo]

The disgust comes from how we lost games. The Bills game was given away. A pick 6 against the Bears, defensive and ST collapse against the Steelers and that god awful Browns game. A lot of these were very winnable.

Someone else mentioned the offense needing to be rebuilt for Harbs. Well thats not so difficult when you hit on a qb, RB and LT in one off season to add with a good rb in Willis, Heap at TE and Mason outside. For the most part the rest of the line was secure.

I wasn't implying that we shouldn't be disgusted, just demonstrating that we do feel that way, whereas back in the Billick day, we were like "oh, it was an odd-numbered year....we suck every odd-numbered year"

[redrum52]

Only thing is, my friend, is that Billick did try to get an offense going, and failed miserably. He tried drafting QB's, and WR's, but he could not develop them. Who's to say that Flacco would be a Super Bowl MVP or Ray Rice would have been a solid RB without Harbaugh's coaching? You act as though Billick didn't have a shot to coach his players up at QB/RB...

Boller, Clarence Moore, Justin Harper, Demetrius Williams, Darling, Mark Clayton. Should i keep going?Ozzie tried and failed miserably with the offense during Bollers time and Boller kept us from getting a competent qb.

[BloodRaven]

But part of that goes into coaching. Yes, a lot of it falls on whether or not the player can play or whether or not they're motivated, but the coach also has to help them take the necessary steps and make the jumps. It's not like the Ravens didn't try to add lots of quarterbacks during Billick's tenure. 

Maybe Harbaugh got lucky, but it's more likely that he just developed Joe much better if you see how much he's grown since his rookie year.

 

I'm just saying no amount of coaching was ever going to turn Boller into Peyton Manning, in saying that I'm not completely excluding the role coaches play in development but what role did Harbaugh have in Flacco's development? he was a career ST/skills specialist before he came here.

[Tiz]

I'm just saying no amount of coaching was ever going to turn Boller into Peyton Manning, in saying that I'm not completely excluding the role coaches play in development but what role did Harbaugh have in Flacco's development? he was a career ST/skills specialist before he came here.

No one ever said he had to be peyton

Think you out extremes out there because you've got noting else

I liked boller and felt the last three games in 2006 he was starting to come around

Billick et al were not the best Qb developers so if there's room for improvement with them why would it be illogical to think an improved Qb coach couldn't help boller. It's not like we don't think hue played a hand in flacco developing just like we are seeing Kubiak in helping him improve

[Tank 92]

No, but I don't think anybody besides Jeff Fisher was fired and then re-hired.  The trend these days seems to be finding first-time head coaches e.g. Harbs, Mike Smith, Gary Kubiak, Wisenhunt, Mangini, McCarthy, Tomlin, I'd even throw Caldwell in there since his firing from Indy had more to do with the fact that half of his star players were injured and the FO wanted to rebuild with Luck rather than re-sign Peyton Manning ... every once in a while a Jeff Fisher or Lovie Smith will get re-treaded, but I think the trend is to find the hot young college coach or coordinator.

 

 

That now seems to be the trend.  6 years ago?  Don't think so.

[SeaHawk]

That now seems to be the trend.  6 years ago?  Don't think so.

 

On this note, just curiosity speaking, but why hasn't Marty Schottenheimer garnered any interest in being hired as a coach since his days with the Chargers?? He was an excellent coach, the Chargers just got tired of him not being able to advance in the playoffs. But at least he got them there.

[BmoreBird22]

I'm just saying no amount of coaching was ever going to turn Boller into Peyton Manning, in saying that I'm not completely excluding the role coaches play in development but what role did Harbaugh have in Flacco's development? he was a career ST/skills specialist before he came here.

No, Boller would never be great, and as much as we may hate to admit it, John bringing in Cam was actually huge for Joe's development. Plus, Harbaugh is known for his grueling practices and getting the most from a player and their work ethic.

[Tank 92]

On this note, just curiosity speaking, but why hasn't Marty Schottenheimer garnered any interest in being hired as a coach since his days with the Chargers?? He was an excellent coach, the Chargers just got tired of him not being able to advance in the playoffs. But at least he got them there.

 

 

He's pretty old to be starting a new NFL HC job.

[Tiz]

On this note, just curiosity speaking, but why hasn't Marty Schottenheimer garnered any interest in being hired as a coach since his days with the Chargers?? He was an excellent coach, the Chargers just got tired of him not being able to advance in the playoffs. But at least he got them there.

Iirc he has pushed for his son

The last two inquiries regarding him he declined interviews unless his son got interviewed first

[K-Dog]

But give credit to where credit is due, bilick raised the standard of ravens very high. If it weren't for him, this franchise could've been the next Bengals/browns.

You do bring up a good point.

Just because Harbaugh is better doesnt mean Billick sucked.  He was very good.  Excellent for some time, but much like Cam, the team simply out grew him.

[poescrows]

Both had their share of flaws, but Harbaugh would top Bilick.

But give credit to where credit is due, bilick raised the standard of ravens very high. If it weren't for him, this franchise could've been the next Bengals/browns.

Very true. Harbs overall has the edge imo but billick layed the groundwork for what I think will be a great NFL franchise for decades to come.

[edthehead]

You mean he had as much, if not more talented rosters, and did half as much with it

 

 

Billick could only dream of having 5 consistent winning seasons. 3 in which we appeared in the AFC championship game, 1 SB vs his brother who's considered by many to be better than him, 1 SB he was robbed from.

And may I remind you, we had a team with

Suggs

A Thomas

Ray Lewis

Gregg

Bart Scott

Chris McCalister

Ed Reed

Samari Rolle

Deion Sanders

Haloti Ngata

Trevor Pryce

On defense....

Derrick Mason in his prime

A healthy Todd Heap

Jamal Lewis

with a good oline.

Sure, we had Boller...... But this was still the most talented team we have ever had...

Harbaugh has never had talent of that caliber on defense. Sure, he was better with offensive talent, but for everyone hating on Cam, he was effective in developing an offense(so yes college is the perfect fit for him).

Harbaugh has two weaknesses. He's too loyal to his friends, and he sucks and time out management.

Billivk couldn't let things go, and wasn't a disciplinarian.

Harbaugh is better. Even if he isn't as knowledgable as his brother in regards to the game, he can manage a team much better than either

 

 

Had less to work with?  Ray, Ed, Suggs, McAlister, Jamal Lewis, Heap, Ogden, Adalius Thomas are all guys who are better at their positions than what Harbaugh is working with.  Ray, Ed and Ogden in their primes, 3 HOFs in their primes.  Harbaugh gets Ray at 33 and Ed at 29, no Ogden.  McAlister is a superior corner to anything we have had since he started breaking down in 2007.  No CB on this team since 06 has come close to McAlister.  Heap in his prime is a better TE than anything Harbaugh has had, Harbaugh had him when he was 28ish and spending most of the week on the trainers table.  Suggs is a wash, both Billick and Harbaugh have had Suggs when he was a game wrecker.  We haven't had another OLB like Thomas since he left, not even close.  I'd take Jamal Lewis as a running HB over Ray Rice when both are in their primes but that's just me.  To me that's more important, easy to find 3rd down pass catching backs and Jamal ran against 8 man boxes every play.

Where Harbaugh has had the advantage in talent is in the 2 places Billick never did: QB and WR.  Which is imperative in this day in age.  What Harbaugh has now that Billick never did is consistency in winning and thats directly due to the QB position.

This is just an opinion, you all make great points.points. Harb is a good coach but due to his lackluster Andy reid mentality.I do think Billick is a much superior coach.He coaches what he can coach discipline,we all are only to aware of his infamous DOGHOUSE,we are becoming a NE/andy reid team,ARE WE WINNING yes and I love it.I like the kubiak hire,,Pees is a decent DC.I really think mgmt has allot of say in what is really going on. just my thoughts....        

[SeaHawk]

This is just an opinion, you all make great points.points. Harb is a good coach but due to his lackluster Andy reid mentality.I do think Billick is a much superior coach.He coaches what he can coach discipline,we all are only to aware of his infamous DOGHOUSE,we are becoming a NE/andy reid team,ARE WE WINNING yes and I love it.I like the kubiak hire,,Pees is a decent DC.I really think mgmt has allot of say in what is really going on. just my thoughts....        

 

I will take the 5 straight playoff seasons and a super bowl victory, plus so-called lackluster personality aka class, and avoid the up and down nature of Billick's tenure.

[RavensDE]

Harbaugh. A consistent winner.

[JO_75]

Boller, Clarence Moore, Justin Harper, Demetrius Williams, Darling, Mark Clayton. Should i keep going?Ozzie tried and failed miserably with the offense during Bollers time and Boller kept us from getting a competent qb.

 

So Ozzie is still our GM today, so what changed to prevent Torrey from being included in that long line of WR busts? What about Marlon who seems he could develop into a nice slot WR one day for us. Coaching is what I think changed all that, same reason why Joe isn't included in our line of QB busts since Dilfer. Coaching improved under Harbs and he was able to pull out the potential in players. 

 

Harbs by far is the winner. 5 out of 6 seasons you go into the playoffs, including 3 AFC Title Games, and a Super Bowl win. I doubt there will be no other coach in the next decade that can have that level of success in his first 6 seasons. Plus as some have said, he hasn't had a losing record and even when we were bad last year, we still had a shot to make the playoffs in Week 17.

[52520Andrew]

Harbs but Billick is better than given credit for. That lions den speech is classic. Harbs has been great as well, the way he responded to the "mutiny" really earned him a lot of respect with the players. Huge moment there for the team.

[Tank 92]

May not be true, but I always thought Billick's mouth buried us in zebra hell for years. Somehow the calls just never seemed to go our way.

[redrum52]

So Ozzie is still our GM today, so what changed to prevent Torrey from being included in that long line of WR busts? What about Marlon who seems he could develop into a nice slot WR one day for us. Coaching is what I think changed all that, same reason why Joe isn't included in our line of QB busts since Dilfer. Coaching improved under Harbs and he was able to pull out the potential in players.

Harbs by far is the winner. 5 out of 6 seasons you go into the playoffs, including 3 AFC Title Games, and a Super Bowl win. I doubt there will be no other coach in the next decade that can have that level of success in his first 6 seasons. Plus as some have said, he hasn't had a losing record and even when we were bad last year, we still had a shot to make the playoffs in Week 17.

Pete Carroll and his brother. We've had many wr busts since Harbs got here as well.

[Tiz]

Pete Carroll and his brother. We've had many wr busts since Harbs got here as well.

First you'll have to define what you view as a bust

With the exception of Torrey the other wrs we drafted were 4th or 5th rd

It doesn't appear that there's been any real push to acquire wrs like before

[ravensdan]

It seems like most of these responses were from people who weren't around when billick took over the team. The ravens were a laughing stock and EVERYone nationally wanted them to fail. The media bias which is false now was very much true at the time. Everyone was biased because they moved the team from Cleveland. The players like one Ray Lewis were much maligned. Billick was able to overcome all of this and completely change the reputation of this team and turn it from a laughing stock into a winner.

Harbaugh is IMO one of the best coaches in the league today. Extremely consistent winner. But that shouldn't overshadow what billick did for this franchise.

[BloodRaven]

No one ever said he had to be peyton

Think you out extremes out there because you've got noting else

I liked boller and felt the last three games in 2006 he was starting to come around

Billick et al were not the best Qb developers so if there's room for improvement with them why would it be illogical to think an improved Qb coach couldn't help boller. It's not like we don't think hue played a hand in flacco developing just like we are seeing Kubiak in helping him improve

 

Nice try but he had 8 years under multiple coaches to prove what he was capable of, and he did.

 

GM's don't envision a career passer rating of 70 when they trade up for a first round QB .

[Tank 92]

It seems like most of these responses were from people who weren't around when billick took over the team. The ravens were a laughing stock and EVERYone nationally wanted them to fail. The media bias which is false now was very much true at the time. Everyone was biased because they moved the team from Cleveland. The players like one Ray Lewis were much maligned. Billick was able to overcome all of this and completely change the reputation of this team and turn it from a laughing stock into a winner.

Harbaugh is IMO one of the best coaches in the league today. Extremely consistent winner. But that shouldn't overshadow what billick did for this franchise.

 

 

Brian Billick definitely changed how the Team was perceived, but I don't think it was because of his coaching abilities. He could never be accused of being at a loss for words and loved the interviews. He was a great PR HC. 

 

What I remember is that the Ravens became a defensive powerhouse(Marvin, Rex, Ray, Goose, Boulware, McCallister, Ed, etc.) and that's what turned the record around. Billick came in touted as an offensive genius and for the most part the O regressed during his tenure. But you are right......... Billick's time here and his effect on the Ravens should not be viewed as a failure and should be appreciated.

[Tiz]

It seems like most of these responses were from people who weren't around when billick took over the team. The ravens were a laughing stock and EVERYone nationally wanted them to fail. The media bias which is false now was very much true at the time. Everyone was biased because they moved the team from Cleveland. The players like one Ray Lewis were much maligned. Billick was able to overcome all of this and completely change the reputation of this team and turn it from a laughing stock into a winner.

Harbaugh is IMO one of the best coaches in the league today. Extremely consistent winner. But that shouldn't overshadow what billick did for this franchise.

Hilarious if anything you'd accuse people of becoming fans after 2k when billick and baltimore struggled at showing success back to back years

To say that people pick the consistency of the harbaugh tenure over billick because they weren't around is just dumb.

[BloodRaven]

Brian Billick definitely changed how the Team was perceived, but I don't think it was because of his coaching abilities. He could never be accused of being at a loss for words and loved the interviews. He was a great PR HC. 

 

What I remember is that the Ravens became a defensive powerhouse(Marvin, Rex, Ray, Goose, Boulware, McCallister, Ed, etc.) and that's what turned the record around. Billick came in touted as an offensive genius and for the most part the O regressed during his tenure. But you are right......... Billick's time here and his effect on the Ravens should not be viewed as a failure and should be appreciated.

 

I always felt like once he fumbled the QB situation and couldn't get it back he just played the figurehead and went along for the ride, it's hard to look like an offensive guru with no QB.

 

As far as the ideal coaching philosophy I think it falls somewhere between both, you can't be too relaxed like Billick because then theres no consistency or discipline at game time, and you can't be too strict like Harbaugh where players walk on eggshells and stage mutinies.