Who's the Better Ravens Coach: Billick or Harbaugh?

[BloodRaven]

Coaching tenets aren't as important as the talent, I always point to Jim Caldwell's win/loss record in his last two seasons with Indy as the best example. People seem to forget that Billick never had a QB, how would he have fared with Flacco? or Harbaugh with Boller?

[Tiz]

Harbaugh.

I will point to the discussion about team unity and the suspension of the black jerseys.

He acknowledged that there was a rift between offense and defense. He also acknowledged that despite not making the playoffs frequently the team had a sense of entitlement as well as was undisciplined on the field. So our memories of billick being great are highly exaggerated and are a result of winning the sb early in his tenure.

[Tiz]

Coaching tenets aren't as important as the talent, I always point to Jim Caldwell's win/loss record in his last two seasons with Indy as the best example. People seem to forget that Billick never had a QB, how would he have fared with Flacco? or Harbaugh with Boller?

How much of lack of Qb was due to billick not being a great teacher? Frequent turnover at Qb was on him. Let's not also forget how flacco draft profile was eerily similar to boller.

So we take the 2007 and 2008 squads the turnover was to go from McNair, Troy , boller to rookie flacco. We still had McGahee. We didn't have a great amount of turnover defensively. Yet go from missing playoffs to afccg

Only a fool would act like that's all flacco only a fool would over look how much billick would force passes when we should be running just to maintain his offensive genius status

Lastly downfall was billick, fassel and neuheisel

On same staff. Too many cooks in the kitchen and no real structure

[BloodRaven]

How much of lack of Qb was due to billick not being a great teacher? Frequent turnover at Qb was on him. Let's not also forget how flacco draft profile was eerily similar to boller.

So we take the 2007 and 2008 squads the turnover was to go from McNair, Troy , boller to rookie flacco. We still had McGahee. We didn't have a great amount of turnover defensively. Yet go from missing playoffs to afccg

Only a fool would act like that's all flacco only a fool would over look how much billick would force passes when we should be running just to maintain his offensive genius status

Lastly downfall was billick, fassel and neuheisel

On same staff. Too many cooks in the kitchen and no real structure

 

By that logic a good coach could have fixed Boller's happy feet, alas history shows us you can't teach composure to a QB who is has none. The reports on Flacco pre-draft were along the lines of "poised under pressure" or "rarely gets rattled" etc etc, so the only thing he had in common with Boller was the cannon.

 

Also, last season was the first where Harbaugh had complete control, a team he coached and formed over 6 years by removing anyone who didn't buy into his philosophy and culture. We went 8-8.

[BSHU_Miami]

That & his whole offensive coaching staff being fired.....

definitely. 

[SeaHawk]

Coaching tenets aren't as important as the talent, I always point to Jim Caldwell's win/loss record in his last two seasons with Indy as the best example. People seem to forget that Billick never had a QB, how would he have fared with Flacco? or Harbaugh with Boller?

 

By your point though, we can't argue if anyone is better than anyone, because everything is subject to circumstances according to your view. What if the coach New England had before Belichick had Tom Brady? What if Tom Brady never had Belichick's coaching? What if Belichick never had Brady and the monster defense they had back in the 2000's??

 

Adding to the case that Harbs is by far the better coach is the fact that Harbs got the most out of Billick's talent. So what if the players they had in 2008 and for a few years thereafter were Billick players? He still got that team to the playoffs, which is something Billick could not consistently do.

[flynismo]

By that logic a good coach could have fixed Boller's happy feet, alas history shows us you can't teach composure to a QB who is has none. The reports on Flacco pre-draft were along the lines of "poised under pressure" or "rarely gets rattled" etc etc, so the only thing he had in common with Boller was the cannon.

Also, last season was the first where Harbaugh had complete control, a team he coached and formed over 6 years by removing anyone who didn't buy into his philosophy and culture. We went 8-8.

I agree on both counts...the scouting report on Flacco was nothing like Boller's, and looking at how they played in college, rightfully so. I never bought into the Boller hype and was disappointed, but hopeful, when we drafted him. With Flacco...I was beyond myself when we picked him. I felt like he was the best QB in the draft.

And coaching can only take you so far.....coaching up Boller was the proverbial "polishing a Waste products". But then again, Billick has to take the blame for that, given his role in recruiting Boller

[SeaHawk]

I agree on both counts...the scouting report on Flacco was nothing like Boller's, and looking at how they played in college, rightfully so. I never bought into the Boller hype and was disappointed, but hopeful, when we drafted him. With Flacco...I was beyond myself when we picked him. I felt like he was the best QB in the draft.

And coaching can only take you so far.....coaching up Boller was the proverbial "polishing a Waste products". But then again, Billick has to take the blame for that, given his role in recruiting Boller

 

I agree to a certain extent... I think that a system can definitely protect a QB from his weaknesses though. Look at Montana/Walsh, for instance. Montana, in terms of physical talent, was definitely not the best, and didn't have a cannon of an arm, but with Walsh's system in place, he looked like the best QB in the history of the game. Without Walsh, who knows? He may still have been a good QB, but best ever?

[JoeyFlex5]

Implying Torrey is better isn't bashing Clayton, just like implying Harbaugh is better isn't bashing Billick. Just pointing out that the answers to both of those questions were self explanatory.

just felt like a bash lol sorry you cant tell someones tone when reading a typed out message 

[edthehead]

Wow,,coach billick by far,, he had less players than today and did just as much,the game allot of times is WON ,just by good coaching,there are many times Harb has dropped the ball when it comes to coaching,CMON people go back to NE game afc championship game don't you think if harb would have called time out,maybe just maybe we would have had a better shot(we did get a great kicker out the deal) LOOK at the games last year ,Look at that 3 game loosing streak just look at the games we did not win and you can put those games on his shoulders,,the players,the dog house,he is a good coach but we should have kept COACH BILLICK   

[flynismo]

I agree to a certain extent... I think that a system can definitely protect a QB from his weaknesses though. Look at Montana/Walsh, for instance. Montana, in terms of physical talent, was definitely not the best, and didn't have a cannon of an arm, but with Walsh's system in place, he looked like the best QB in the history of the game. Without Walsh, who knows? He may still have been a good QB, but best ever?

Well, let me ask you this....do you think Boller would have done what Montana did in SF in the 80s had he played for them? Obviously not, but that's kinda my point. Absolutely, Montana had absurd weapons to work with, and a great scheme. But look at Montana himself. Possibly the most accurate passer the league has ever seen, highly intelligent, and cool as ice under pressure. All three of those qualities (accuracy, IQ and composure) are needed to become a good or great QB....and not surprisingly, Boller was highly defecient in all three categories.

The right system can definitely make a good QB a great one, but I am certain that if me, you or Boller played on those SFO teams, they would not have been nearly as successful as they were

[flynismo]

Wow,,coach billick by far,, he had less players than today and did just as much,the game allot of times is WON ,just by good coaching,there are many times Harb has dropped the ball when it comes to coaching,CMON people go back to NE game afc championship game don't you think if harb would have called time out,maybe just maybe we would have had a better shot(we did get a great kicker out the deal) LOOK at the games last year ,Look at that 3 game loosing streak just look at the games we did not win and you can put those games on his shoulders,,the players,the dog house,he is a good coach but we should have kept COACH BILLICK   

 

You mean he had as much, if not more talented rosters, and did half as much with it

[SeaHawk]

You mean he had as much, if not more talented rosters, and did half as much with it

 

Exactly, and why fault Harbaugh for getting more out of Billick's talent?? And people forget about the fact that Harbaugh basically had to build a completely new offense in his first year here. They act like Billick went to the playoffs every single year with his group of juggernaut weapons.

[SeaHawk]

Well, let me ask you this....do you think Boller would have done what Montana did in SF in the 80s had he played for them? Obviously not, but that's kinda my point. Absolutely, Montana had absurd weapons to work with, and a great scheme. But look at Montana himself. Possibly the most accurate passer the league has ever seen, highly intelligent, and cool as ice under pressure. All three of those qualities (accuracy, IQ and composure) are needed to become a good or great QB....and not surprisingly, Boller was highly defecient in all three categories.

The right system can definitely make a good QB a great one, but I am certain that if me, you or Boller played on those SFO teams, they would not have been nearly as successful as they were

 

I definitely agree on all counts with this being said.

[flynismo]

Exactly, and why fault Harbaugh for getting more out of Billick's talent?? And people forget about the fact that Harbaugh basically had to build a completely new offense in his first year here. They act like Billick went to the playoffs every single year with his group of juggernaut weapons.

Yeah, I remember distinctly missing the playoffs every other year, and even when we did make it, we were one-and-done every single time save for once.

 

Now, our expectations are through the roof -- we are DISGUSTED with the fact we went 8-8 and missed the playoffs last year....in the Billick era, that was just a fact of life more often than not.

[SeaHawk]

Yeah, I remember distinctly missing the playoffs every other year, and even when we did make it, we were one-and-done every single time save for once.

 

Now, our expectations are through the roof -- we are DISGUSTED with the fact we went 8-8 and missed the playoffs last year....in the Billick era, that was just a fact of life more often than not.

 

I'll sum it up in 3 words... we are spoiled. Lol, many teams would do anything to be in the playoffs, let alone win a super bowl. They would definitely sacrifice a season to the 8-8 mediocrity that our team just experienced for that kind of feat.

[Tiz]

By that logic a good coach could have fixed Boller's happy feet, alas history shows us you can't teach composure to a QB who is has none. The reports on Flacco pre-draft were along the lines of "poised under pressure" or "rarely gets rattled" etc etc, so the only thing he had in common with Boller was the cannon.

Also, last season was the first where Harbaugh had complete control, a team he coached and formed over 6 years by removing anyone who didn't buy into his philosophy and culture. We went 8-8.

Yes it's possible a good coach could have

I mean look at Alex smith during his sf tenure

Early on he would rush everything but under norv turner he started to relax

So yes a good coach does help Qbs develop

That's why they are coaches

I do like it when people act like coaches don't develop talent and all coaches are equal

So we should have kept cam

[BloodRaven]

Exactly, and why fault Harbaugh for getting more out of Billick's talent?? And people forget about the fact that Harbaugh basically had to build a completely new offense in his first year here. They act like Billick went to the playoffs every single year with his group of juggernaut weapons.

 

Billick didn't have Flacco, we didn't find a franchize QB until Billick was gone.

[BloodRaven]

I agree on both counts...the scouting report on Flacco was nothing like Boller's, and looking at how they played in college, rightfully so. I never bought into the Boller hype and was disappointed, but hopeful, when we drafted him. With Flacco...I was beyond myself when we picked him. I felt like he was the best QB in the draft.

And coaching can only take you so far.....coaching up Boller was the proverbial "polishing a Waste products". But then again, Billick has to take the blame for that, given his role in recruiting Boller

 

From memory both Billick and Ozzie said that because of Boller they learned an important lesson about reaching for need, to be fair the other big arm options around Boller were Leftwich and Grossman so we were screwed either way. 

[SecretAgentMan]

Wow,,coach billick by far,, he had less players than today and did just as much,the game allot of times is WON ,just by good coaching,there are many times Harb has dropped the ball when it comes to coaching,CMON people go back to NE game afc championship game don't you think if harb would have called time out,maybe just maybe we would have had a better shot(we did get a great kicker out the deal) LOOK at the games last year ,Look at that 3 game loosing streak just look at the games we did not win and you can put those games on his shoulders,,the players,the dog house,he is a good coach but we should have kept COACH BILLICK

Billick could only dream of having 5 consistent winning seasons. 3 in which we appeared in the AFC championship game, 1 SB vs his brother who's considered by many to be better than him, 1 SB he was robbed from.

And may I remind you, we had a team with

Suggs

A Thomas

Ray Lewis

Gregg

Bart Scott

Chris McCalister

Ed Reed

Samari Rolle

Deion Sanders

Haloti Ngata

Trevor Pryce

On defense....

Derrick Mason in his prime

A healthy Todd Heap

Jamal Lewis

with a good oline.

Sure, we had Boller...... But this was still the most talented team we have ever had...

Harbaugh has never had talent of that caliber on defense. Sure, he was better with offensive talent, but for everyone hating on Cam, he was effective in developing an offense(so yes college is the perfect fit for him).

Harbaugh has two weaknesses. He's too loyal to his friends, and he sucks and time out management.

Billivk couldn't let things go, and wasn't a disciplinarian.

Harbaugh is better. Even if he isn't as knowledgable as his brother in regards to the game, he can manage a team much better than either

[Bltravens]

Wow,,coach billick by far,, he had less players than today and did just as much,the game allot of times is WON ,just by good coaching,there are many times Harb has dropped the ball when it comes to coaching,CMON people go back to NE game afc championship game don't you think if harb would have called time out,maybe just maybe we would have had a better shot(we did get a great kicker out the deal) LOOK at the games last year ,Look at that 3 game loosing streak just look at the games we did not win and you can put those games on his shoulders,,the players,the dog house,he is a good coach but we should have kept COACH BILLICK   

Had less to work with?  Ray, Ed, Suggs, McAlister, Jamal Lewis, Heap, Ogden, Adalius Thomas are all guys who are better at their positions than what Harbaugh is working with.  Ray, Ed and Ogden in their primes, 3 HOFs in their primes.  Harbaugh gets Ray at 33 and Ed at 29, no Ogden.  McAlister is a superior corner to anything we have had since he started breaking down in 2007.  No CB on this team since 06 has come close to McAlister.  Heap in his prime is a better TE than anything Harbaugh has had, Harbaugh had him when he was 28ish and spending most of the week on the trainers table.  Suggs is a wash, both Billick and Harbaugh have had Suggs when he was a game wrecker.  We haven't had another OLB like Thomas since he left, not even close.  I'd take Jamal Lewis as a running HB over Ray Rice when both are in their primes but that's just me.  To me that's more important, easy to find 3rd down pass catching backs and Jamal ran against 8 man boxes every play.

Where Harbaugh has had the advantage in talent is in the 2 places Billick never did: QB and WR.  Which is imperative in this day in age.  What Harbaugh has now that Billick never did is consistency in winning and thats directly due to the QB position.

[redrum52]

Yeah, I remember distinctly missing the playoffs every other year, and even when we did make it, we were one-and-done every single time save for once.

Now, our expectations are through the roof -- we are DISGUSTED with the fact we went 8-8 and missed the playoffs last year....in the Billick era, that was just a fact of life more often than not.

The disgust comes from how we lost games. The Bills game was given away. A pick 6 against the Bears, defensive and ST collapse against the Steelers and that god awful Browns game. A lot of these were very winnable.

Someone else mentioned the offense needing to be rebuilt for Harbs. Well thats not so difficult when you hit on a qb, RB and LT in one off season to add with a good rb in Willis, Heap at TE and Mason outside. For the most part the rest of the line was secure.

[Ravenslifer]

I would say Harbs because he's had to deal directly with the prime of Ben Roethlisberger and something resembling stability in Cincinnati.  I don't think the other teams in this division were as consistently good throughout Billick's 9 years as they have been through Harbs' 7 years, and Harbs' worst season was 8-8.  He hasn't gone through the up and down stretches of Billick's  tenure.

[redrum52]

It's also funny how some of you will say look at how stacked the team was even with Boller, but most of you will be the first to say our season is over if Flacco goes down.

I feel I should also mention I'm not the biggest fan of Harbaugh.

[Bltravens]

From memory both Billick and Ozzie said that because of Boller they learned an important lesson about reaching for need, to be fair the other big arm options around Boller were Leftwich and Grossman so we were screwed either way. 

Hindsight, should have just stayed put and grabbed Wilfork the next year lol.

[Tank 92]

Has anyone offered Billick a HC job since he left?

[Tiz]

Has anyone offered Billick a HC job since he left?

That's messed up lol

[Tiz]

It's also funny how some of you will say look at how stacked the team was even with Boller, but most of you will be the first to say our season is over if Flacco goes down.

I feel I should also mention I'm not the biggest fan of Harbaugh.

Last two years billick had McNair

So was McNair even that late in his career worse than a rookie flacco?

[Ravenslifer]

Has anyone offered Billick a HC job since he left?

 

No, but I don't think anybody besides Jeff Fisher was fired and then re-hired.  The trend these days seems to be finding first-time head coaches e.g. Harbs, Mike Smith, Gary Kubiak, Wisenhunt, Mangini, McCarthy, Tomlin, I'd even throw Caldwell in there since his firing from Indy had more to do with the fact that half of his star players were injured and the FO wanted to rebuild with Luck rather than re-sign Peyton Manning ... every once in a while a Jeff Fisher or Lovie Smith will get re-treaded, but I think the trend is to find the hot young college coach or coordinator.

[SeaHawk]

Billick didn't have Flacco, we didn't find a franchize QB until Billick was gone.

 

Oh, so Harbs didn't just win because of Billick's players? What a concept.