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Feeling good about the Flacco/Kubiak relationship


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#41 flynismo

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:33 PM

I actually spent so much time staring at that gif I lost track of the time.

Can't blame you, I just watched it four tines without realizing it. That pass traveled 52 yards in the air, Joe was on the run and threw it off his back foot under pressure, and even though it was underthown by about a yard, that's a throw very few could even think about making, much less getting any closer.
Then of course the shake-n-bake by JJ....just awesome

The bottom line is Kubiak made ordinary QBs look great! Schaub was an average QB who put up better numbers than Flacco and went to the pro bowl. Now, Flacco is no Manning, Brady, Brees or Rodgers in the performance department, but he is definitely more talented than Schaub physically. I feel Flacco will flourish well under Kubiak as long as he works hard and learns his system fully and is able to run it efficiently! Go Ravens and I feel good about our offense too!

For what it's worth, Schaub also has some pretty sick weapons at his disposal -- AJ, who was second only to Megatron as beat WR in the league, Foster, who is probably the best receiving back in the league, and Daniels is a stud too.
We may not have that quality, but we certainly should have enough quantity to be just as good offensively.
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#42 flynismo

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:45 PM

I think that's the magic number right there for the modern offense. If you get 60 plays, that's perfect. As mentioned above, the Patriots have a similar ratio and they've obviously done well for themselves on offense.


Sure thing, however, I hope we focus on effeciency, not just getting big yards. Four plays at 6 yards each is better than one play for 24 yards. Keep that defense rested!
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#43 Ravensfan23

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 10:03 PM

I think that's the magic number right there for the modern offense. If you get 60 plays, that's perfect. As mentioned above, the Patriots have a similar ratio and they've obviously done well for themselves on offense.


I'll take it a step farther. Out of those 35 pass attempts you should have about 7-10 play action passes thrown in there. Flacco is among the games best at the PA pass. We finally have an OC who understands how to effectively use the PA. You now have the match of Flacco bringing more of a deep ball element to Kubes offense and Kubes will allow Flacco to use PA and use his athleticism to move the pocket and change launch points, which is so tough on defenders. Usually we'd have about 3-5 shot plays that were basically hit or miss with our offense. Very low percentage, but when you look at what Kubes likes to do, combined with what Flacco does best, coupled with the speed of Torrey/Coby, the craftiness of Smith, Pitta, Daniels and the size of Brown, the PA pass game could be deadly.

I watched a couple highlight reels on the Texans offense today and just watching the creative things Kubes does with the PA is exciting. One play had Daniels running a drag/wheel/post route off the PA. How do you run a triple move and more importantly who's gonna be able to stick with Torrey if he's running a triple move off of a PA that probably moved the Safety from the middle of the field with Flacco who can throw the ball 60 yards down field and across it?
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#44 hawkprey

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 10:25 PM

Can't blame you, I just watched it four tines without realizing it. That pass traveled 52 yards in the air, Joe was on the run and threw it off his back foot under pressure, and even though it was underthown by about a yard, that's a throw very few could even think about making, much less getting any closer.
Then of course the shake-n-bake by JJ....just awesome

4th and 8, season on the line. Rodgers makes a similar play, only he has time to plant his feet and Cobb was about twice as open when the ball was thrown. One of these was the sensational throw of the year because it was Rodgers and the other was a QB who underthrew and got lucky because it was Flacco. http://losthatsports.../packers-td.gif. It just goes to show you how easy it is to perceive what you want to see.

 

I can't believe some people here reserve Flacco to a meddling "good enough" guy. I can't wait to see our QB with an OC that actually belongs as an NFL OC. That play was the first time we used that route all year. Imagine if we actually put some creativity into our calls for more than once every 20 games!

 

(By the way, I'll take the 24 yarder any day)


Edited by hawkprey, 01 June 2014 - 10:25 PM.

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#45 Bltravens

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 11:28 PM

Sure thing, however, I hope we focus on effeciency, not just getting big yards. Four plays at 6 yards each is better than one play for 24 yards. Keep that defense rested!

Pft. Track meet, I want our offense scoring so much our defense can't even stand in their positions anymore! lol


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#46 52520Andrew

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 11:40 PM

(By the way, I'll take the 24 yarder any day)

 

That is an interesting question, I would say the 4 6 yard plays are better because it shows consistency. If you can wear a defense down like that consistently those 6 yarders turn into 24 yarders later in the game as the defense gets tired. It also keeps your own defense fresh, I guess it comes down to ideals.


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#47 JetLife94

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:10 AM

According to a article from NFl.com

I'm excited that we finally have a offensive coordinator that isn't average but I think a free Flacco is a better Flacco. One of the main problems Flacco had with Cam Cameron was that he wouldn't allow him to make his own calls at the line or his own checks.

If Gary Kubiak comes with that same philosophy then it may cause some problems but hopefully Flacco or even Harbaugh will have a talk with him about this .

Under cam Cameron years 2010 and 2011 were his statistical best years
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#48 Hardbaugh

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 07:01 AM

The thing that stands out to me about the Flacco and Kubes relationship is when Flacco talks about having a OC who he can trust. He spoke about how Kubes is a former QB and " understand" what the QBs are seeing back there. He also talked about having a OC that knows what he wants to do in tight spots of a game. This stands out to me because I've felt like since 2010 there's always been a disconnect between Flacco and his OCs.

Flacco is a self admitted hard headed person and although there has never any public riffs i feel like Flacco and Cam/Caldwell have butted heads over what direction the offense should go in. I get the feeling that Joe finds it hard toreally connect with a guy who has never played the position or maybe i should say he feels more comfortable with guys who can relate to what he goes though as a QB. I don't think it's just happen stance that Joe's best years have come when he's at least had QB coach that played the position. Hue Jackson and Jim Zorn did wonders for Flacco and i think Kubes will do the same and even more.

I've always did the biggest difference between Flacco and other top QBs is that those others guys have playcallers they can trust to put them in favorable positions, even when things start to go awry. Those other guys start getting a bit inaccurate or WRs struggle to get good separation and their playcallers pull out the screens and high percentage passes. I think Joe now has that with Kubes.

I don't want to get into the what Joe will do or the type of season he'll have but i will say this QB/OC match is perfect for Flacco. I just hope it's last for at least 3 years and allows Flacco to really master the system, even if/when Kubes leaves.

For my money ...Very good post.  Flacco has had his best seasons with a QB coach he trusts and can lean on.


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#49 Hardbaugh

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 07:09 AM

 We want to play to flaccos strengths. He still has the best most accurate deep balls except maybe Rodgers.

 

I can't let this go unchallenged. Have you any statistical evidence to back up your claims because everything that I've read tells me despite Flacco's strong arm he's one of the worst deep ball throwers in the game.

 

Now, I'll give Flacco some leeway because of the predictable an unimaginative playcalling/playbook but IMO Flacco is always late with the deep ball instead of laying it out there and let his speed guys run under it.

 

.The Bottom 10

Highlighting the myth about Flacco’s arm, the Ravens’ signal caller had the second worst Deep Accuracy of any quarterback in 2013, and had just one touchdown and eight interceptions. This comes a year after his 11 touchdowns and zero interceptions lead to claims that he was the best deep thrower in the league, despite finishing 18th with a Deep Acc% of 40.2% in 2012. Still, his accuracy on deep passes dropped by 14.1% in 2013, with only Jake Locker (23.3%) finishing with a lower mark.
Name Team Deep Acc. %
E.J. Manuel BUF 34.1%
Ryan Tannehill MIA 32.8%
Cam Newton CAR 31.3%
Carson Palmer ARZ 31.1%
Chad Henne JAX 30.8%
Robert Griffin III WAS 30.4%
Terrelle Pryor OAK 30.0%
Jason Campbell CLV 29.4%
Joe Flacco BLT 26.1%
Jake Locker TEN 23.3%

 

http://www.ramsondem...eresting.23174/
 


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#50 display name

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 07:15 AM

Under cam Cameron years 2010 and 2011 were his statistical best years

In 2010 he had a really good QB coach in Jim Zorn, who was inexplicably fired after the season ended.


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#51 flynismo

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 07:25 AM

I can't let this go unchallenged. Have you any statistical evidence to back up your claims because everything that I've read tells me despite Flacco's strong arm he's one of the worst deep ball throwers in the game.

Now, I'll give Flacco some leeway because of the predictable an unimaginative playcalling/playbook but IMO Flacco is always late with the deep ball instead of laying it out there and let his speed guys run under it.


http://www.ramsondem...eresting.23174/


I wouldn't rest my head on completion percentage as the measuring stick of a QBs ability to throw the deep ball.

We mentioned this in a previous discussion....Flacco's deep attempts are typically much further than the usual 20-25 yards; or perhaps a better way of phrasing it is to say Flacco attempts more passes that travel 30+ yards in the air than your average QB.
Flacco's style of play is a factor as well. He will often chuck the ball downfield rather than throw the ball away quite a bit...that backfired last year given the conditions, but we won't go there.
Finally, common sense, or lack thereof, of our OC comes into play. How many teams use the deep passing game regularly, without ensuring that the OL will hold up long enough for the play to develop and for the QB to not have to attempt a 30-40 yard pass on the run? Or just as importantly, how many OC rely a good bit on guys like Mason and Boldin, and occasionally Dickson and Pitta, as 'deep threats'? Heck, Torrey doesn't do much to help Flacco either.
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#52 Hardbaugh

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 07:38 AM

I wouldn't rest my head on completion percentage as the measuring stick of a QBs ability to throw the deep ball.

We mentioned this in a previous discussion....Flacco's deep attempts are typically much further than the usual 20-25 yards; or perhaps a better way of phrasing it is to say Flacco attempts more passes that travel 30+ yards in the air than your average QB.
Flacco's style of play is a factor as well. He will often chuck the ball downfield rather than throw the ball away quite a bit...that backfired last year given the conditions, but we won't go there.
Finally, common sense, or lack thereof, of our OC comes into play. How many teams use the deep passing game regularly, without ensuring that the OL will hold up long enough for the play to develop and for the QB to not have to attempt a 30-40 yard pass on the run? Or just as importantly, how many OC rely a good bit on guys like Mason and Boldin, and occasionally Dickson and Pitta, as 'deep threats'? Heck, Torrey doesn't do much to help Flacco either.

That's a fair rebuttle. I wouldn't bet that the Ravens don't throw deeper more than any team in the game which would lead to lower percentages.

 

The previous poster stated other than Rodgers. I strongly disagree with that.


Edited by Hardbaugh, 02 June 2014 - 07:39 AM.

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#53 flynismo

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 08:08 AM

That's a fair rebuttle. I wouldn't bet that the Ravens don't throw deeper more than any team in the game which would lead to lower percentages.

The previous poster stated other than Rodgers. I strongly disagree with that.


Well, I think it's like any other list....just an opinion. he's not right, you are not right, I'm not right; we see the same things but weigh factors differently, so we walk away with different opinions.

Now, in a perfect fairy tale world where we always pancake every pass rusher and our WR run routes like Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison, I have to agree with the previous poster. Rodgers is the only guy in the same universe as Flacco when it comes to the deep ball.

In the real world where we all reside however, it's very hard to say where he ranks. I can look at certain plays from last year and completely see your side of the argument. But to be fair to the guy, he was put in an impossible position. Hard for me to smack Flacco silly, then be mad at him for hurting my hand, if you know what I mean
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#54 Hardbaugh

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 08:22 AM

PFF deep ball stat is 20 yards or more. I almost view that as mid range.  I'd like to see the accuracy numbers for 30 or 40 yards of more. Flacco would more than likely move up the list I believe. I still say he needs to get rid of the ball faster.

 

I hope and believe the Ravens put the right people in place in Denison and Kubiak to get the best out of Flacco. That bodes well for the Ravens and us fans of course. 

 

I'd argue that the Ravens have a top ten defense although they need to find a way to generate more turnovers as they finished in the 20's last season and a -5 turnover differential.   If the offense can step it up to a modest 14-16 in total offense and clean up some turnovers the Ravens will be poised to go deep in the playoffs again.

 

I do agree as posted earlier in this thread an important offensive stat is efficiency in how the offense operates.


Edited by Hardbaugh, 02 June 2014 - 08:25 AM.

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#55 Bruce_Almty

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 09:00 AM

Lots of 'ifs' coming but IF Kubes/Joe can cut Joe's INTs in half, IF Smith Sr. can exceed Jacoby's 37 catches, 455 yds and 2 TDs, IF Daniels can exceed Clark's 31/343/3, & IF the offense can turn half of Tucker's FGs into TDs the Ravens would have a top 10 offense in 2014. The requirements for Steve Smith and Owen Daniels are very much within their age capabilities. The question is can the O-line & Marlon & Pitta & RR step-up and produce winning numbers. If they can....the division is ours.

Go Ravens


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#56 flynismo

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 09:16 AM

PFF deep ball stat is 20 yards or more. I almost view that as mid range. I'd like to see the accuracy numbers for 30 or 40 yards of more. Flacco would more than likely move up the list I believe. I still say he needs to get rid of the ball faster.

I hope and believe the Ravens put the right people in place in Denison and Kubiak to get the best out of Flacco. That bodes well for the Ravens and us fans of course.

I'd argue that the Ravens have a top ten defense although they need to find a way to generate more turnovers as they finished in the 20's last season and a -5 turnover differential. If the offense can step it up to a modest 14-16 in total offense and clean up some turnovers the Ravens will be poised to go deep in the playoffs again.

I do agree as posted earlier in this thread an important offensive stat is efficiency in how the offense operates.


See, I view 20 yards as intermediate as well. There is nothing difficult about a 20 yard pass....any high school QB can make those type of throws with great accuracy, if he has a pocket to throw from. To me, distance should not start affecting accuracy until the receiver is at least 40 yards out (again, that is assuming a clean pocket), and should not greatly affect accuracy until the reciever is near the limit of the QBs arm strength.
Another factor is arm strength. Even a well placed pass can get picked if it does not have enough velocity...it's a huge reason why those deep outs to Mason were so successful, for example. Mason rightfully gets credit for being a great route runner, but a lot of those completions are very literally impossible for most other QBs, because the heat Flacco put on those passes into such a tight window made the defender defenseless against swatting the pass.

The point behind this mini-rant is that Flacco is not limited to any sort of scheme...he can make any throw imaginable, if you put him in a position to do so. All we need to do to put him in that position is to give him a pocket to throw from....so I don't think the new scheme changes much as far as Flacco is concerned, unless the new scheme can cover up the deficiencies in the OL that we saw last year. I just wish our FO would learn from those past mistakes...adding 'value' players at the skill positions will never impact the offense as greatly (at least in a positive way) as building up a strong OL will.
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#57 ravensdan

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 10:25 AM

See, I view 20 yards as intermediate as well. There is nothing difficult about a 20 yard pass....any high school QB can make those type of throws with great accuracy, if he has a pocket to throw from. To me, distance should not start affecting accuracy until the receiver is at least 40 yards out (again, that is assuming a clean pocket), and should not greatly affect accuracy until the reciever is near the limit of the QBs arm strength.
Another factor is arm strength. Even a well placed pass can get picked if it does not have enough velocity...it's a huge reason why those deep outs to Mason were so successful, for example. Mason rightfully gets credit for being a great route runner, but a lot of those completions are very literally impossible for most other QBs, because the heat Flacco put on those passes into such a tight window made the defender defenseless against swatting the pass.

The point behind this mini-rant is that Flacco is not limited to any sort of scheme...he can make any throw imaginable, if you put him in a position to do so. All we need to do to put him in that position is to give him a pocket to throw from....so I don't think the new scheme changes much as far as Flacco is concerned, unless the new scheme can cover up the deficiencies in the OL that we saw last year. I just wish our FO would learn from those past mistakes...adding 'value' players at the skill positions will never impact the offense as greatly (at least in a positive way) as building up a strong OL will.


I think you get to my point I was making here with the mason examples. I'm not so much talking about the numbers. Just the ability. His strengths. I think Steve smith is going to be a much bigger assert than people realize. He will be the best route runner flacco has had since mason. I expect bigger things from this duo than most seem too. Experience and football intelligence is being underrated. To your point of solidifying the Oline. I agree. That is the most important key to this teams success.
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#58 BOLDnPurPnBlacK

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 11:33 AM

Excited about the Kubiak/Flacco relationship, but I think more important is the Kubiak/Castillo relationship and that Castillo can teach the principles of Kubiaks offense. We've seen proof that when implemented properly it can turn otherwise average lineman into Pro-bowlers, offer a clean pocket to throw from, and make a run game unstoppable regardless of who the back is so long as they have good vision, balance and can make a simple read.

 

I have no doubt that Flacco will thrive in this offense. I think Joe's biggest problem is that when he gets pressured or his 1st couple reads aren't there he relies too much on his physical ability. Having an OC with a very direct and clear vision for what he wants of his QB should help mask that a bit. Outside of Joe the talent is there to make this offense our best ever.

 

Castillo is known for being a great teacher... for whatever reason we didn't see that last year but there were clearly things going on behind the scenes that we didn't know about. Castillo putting his ego aside and truly dedicating himself to becoming an expert on Kubiaks blocking scheme and teaching it well will be the biggest factor in improving our team. If he can do that, I think Zuttah will become the most important offseason acquisition, and our offense will truly be talked about among the most efficient and effective in the league. We'll be able to wear teams down with the run and short passing games, and then stick the dagger in with the deep ball. It will be a thing of beauty.

 

If he cant, the upgraded talent will show improvement on last year, but only marginal improvement and we'll struggle to 8-8 or 9-7 at best.


Edited by BOLDnPurPnBlacK, 02 June 2014 - 11:35 AM.

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#59 hawkprey

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 05:03 PM

That is an interesting question, I would say the 4 6 yard plays are better because it shows consistency. If you can wear a defense down like that consistently those 6 yarders turn into 24 yarders later in the game as the defense gets tired. It also keeps your own defense fresh, I guess it comes down to ideals.

Well, since one is usually used to set up the other, I'd prefer knowing we can have a big play and then having the defense allow short, consecutive gains to having those small gains and hoping you're good enough to make the big play when the opportunity is presented. 

 

I think a defense would prefer allowing those casual gains to allowing the big play. It's more demoralizing.


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#60 52520Andrew

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 05:13 PM

Well, since one is usually used to set up the other, I'd prefer knowing we can have a big play and then having the defense allow short, consecutive gains to having those small gains and hoping you're good enough to make the big play when the opportunity is presented. 

 

I think a defense would prefer allowing those casual gains to allowing the big play. It's more demoralizing.

 

I guess we just have a difference in opinion. I view a big play as demoralizing but I view being able to get consistent gains even more so, especially in the running game because the defense knows it is coming and can still do nothing as the offense slowly goes down the field.


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