The Flacco's Next Record To Break

[flynismo]

Ask Matt Stafford lol ... Definitely not always a lot of positives if your throwing the ball that much.

yeah....to continue on my point about Vick, look at what happened when he got hurt and they put Schaub in for a few games. In the same system, same teammates, Schaub put up huge numbers. But ATL lost those games.

[Guest RBates]

See, this is what is so damn tantalizing AND frustrating about Flacco.

 

No BS or homer stuff, I'm being real here....before the 2008 draft, I believed Flacco was going to one day become a top 3 - 5 QB. So obviously I was kinda happy when my favorite team in the world drafted him (to be fair, I also thought Ryan was going to be a bust and laughed at ATL...I'm not a know it all fortune teller, even if I act like one sometimes).

 

I thought that by this point in his career, Flacco would have won not one, but TWO super bowls. And I thought he would have possibly had an MVP, depending on what his stats looked like (we are the Ravens after all, we like our defense and running game to be at the fore-front). I certainly felt that after six years, he would have undeniably established himself as the top dog, after Manning / Brady / Brees.

 

Obviously, none of the above has happened. So what does that mean?

 

It could mean that Flacco is somewhat of a letdown. But really, that's not the case. All it really shows is that Flacco has proven to be so good, that we have very unfair expectations of him. At least I do. I mean for gawd's sake, I remember just praying that Boller would not screw things up and cost us the game....and here I am expecting Flacco to take us on deep playoff runs every single season.

 

And here we are today.....we say things like "Flacco's light bulb has yet to turn on" and "I dont think he even knows how good he can be".

Those statements are probably true....but again, it comes back to expectations. Do we really expect Flacco to have peaked after just six years? Because it is not a good sign when a QB hits his ceiling so quickly --- it means that he is either physically or mentally (usually mentally) limited as a football player. Michael Vick is the perfect example of that.

 

If you think about it, we really should be thrilled as fans when it comes to this guy. He is a big reason for our sustained success, and the scary part is, he has yet to tap into his full potential. He is entering the prime of his career and finally has a high quality OC to help make the transition from a very good QB to a monster at the position. All that, and he has already accomplished more than 98% of QBs ever will.

Now we agree on everything concerning Flacco.  Well played sir.

[Guest RBates]

In fairness, Wilson has a much better scheme to work with. I hate to always go back to that but his offensive scheme suits him better than any of ours have suited Flacco.

I think you might be onto something here.  I truly believe that Wilson can fit into any scheme.  Because he not just a runner he wants and prefers to throw the football.  Take that away and he has jets as well. He is a rare breed at the position. 

[Guest RBates]

If he does that, is that a good or bad thing? I don't see a lot of positives if that were to happen

Flacco can break that record and still be successful.  If anyone can it has to be him.  We all saw the spectacular playoff run.  Its in him to perform this way he just needs the pieces he just acquired.  You have to have a /Rara/ kinda guy at receiver.  It makes everything better.  

[BmoreBird22]

I think RBates and a lot of other people place too much emphasis on stats. Stats weave whatever tale you want them to.

 

But his point is very valid. Guys like Vick put up poor stats, but he also CARRIED Atlanta because of his ability to make plays outside the pocket.

Guys like Newton, Griffin, and Wilson might be runners that are asked to run the ball and score for their teams, but that doesn't exactly mean they're top tier quarterbacks for it. Andrew Luck is the most efficient runner in the entire NFL, but he's not running the ball 100 times a season. Point being, it may add another dimension, but most quarterbacks in the league are not what Michael Vick was with his legs. Remember, Mike Vick had over 1000 yards rushing in a season. 

[Guest RBates]

It's a different dimension to some quarterbacks games, but I don't think it will make or break which quarterback is better than which unless they are equal in skill, which Newton and Flacco are not. You're so obsessed with stats, especially with Wilson, but I could go on all day about how overrated he is

Not stats BMore.  I'm obsessed with a Qb that manages the game better than any other QB playing right now. Russell is not all stats, Its just amazing to watch him play.  When plays break down the confidence and improvisation he uses is incredible.   

[BmoreBird22]

Not stats BMore.  I'm obsessed with a Qb that manages the game better than any other QB playing right now. Russell is not all stats, Its just amazing to watch him play.  When plays break down the confidence and improvisation he uses is incredible.   

You just used the key word. He manages games. He doesn't win them or take over them. Simply does not lose them. That is why he's not better than Joe

[Guest RBates]

You just used the key word. He manages games. He doesn't win them or take over them. Simply does not lose them. That is why he's not better than Joe

Are you kidding me?  Any Qb in the league is a game manager first.  You protect the football then the house. 

 

In that order.  He wins games by not making poor decisions with the football.  26 passing Tds is hardly a game manger.  Our own Flacco has yet to set that mark as a QB. 

[PolishRifle]

Second to third tier with over 100 as a rating for two years and 26 touchdowns both seasons?  Not to mention he has been better then any two of Flacco's six years in the league.  Wow! I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

 

Joe could've had similar type of stats in 2010, but the Ravens prefer to run out the clock and run the ball in, when their in the redzone under Harbs. Rarely will you see a game, when Harbs lets Joe go "wild". It's a different system, that has limited Flacco over the years, imho.

Wilson had it better in my opinion. Also, it's just two years. Let's see what happens when FA catches up to the Seahawks. That's why I don't see him as a top tier QB for now. Stats are meaningless in a comparison or ranking of quarterbacks to me. How can I tell, that he'll do better than Joe, if he's playing under the same circumstances?

[The Raven]

Joe could've had similar type of stats in 2010, but the Ravens prefer to run out the clock and run the ball in, when their in the redzone under Harbs. Rarely will you see a game, when Harbs lets Joe go "wild". It's a different system, that has limited Flacco over the years, imho.

Wilson had it better in my opinion. Also, it's just two years. Let's see what happens when FA catches up to the Seahawks. That's why I don't see him as a top tier QB for now. Stats are meaningless in a comparison or ranking of quarterbacks to me. How can I tell, that he'll do better than Joe, if he's playing under the same circumstances?

 

Does Seattle not do the same with Marshawn Lynch?

[hawkprey]

Not stats BMore.  I'm obsessed with a Qb that manages the game better than any other QB playing right now. Russell is not all stats, Its just amazing to watch him play.  When plays break down the confidence and improvisation he uses is incredible.   

That's nice, and Wilson is good, but it's easy to get caught up in watching a QB play that backyard football because:

 

1. If he does get sacked, you usually blame the protection or receivers and go "Well, he almost made something out of nothing". So even though it might hurt the offense overall, the QB can only make himself look better. Unless...

 

2. He throws a pick. Fortunately for Wilson, he had 2 receivers (Kearse is almost another) who consistently win matchups for their QB. They get position on the ball, they find it, and they make the great play. Wilson is free to throw it in their direction and not be picked off, and again, it always looks like a great play by the QB.

 

It might not appear as impressive, but it's still better to be able to make the throw before having to do all that stuff. Wilson and some other QBs (Alex Smith comes to mind) are too trigger shy. Hence the "game manager" label. Peyton and Brady don't get themselves in that situation and that quality is being underrated.

[BmoreBird22]

Are you kidding me?  Any Qb in the league is a game manager first.  You protect the football then the house. 

 

In that order.  He wins games by not making poor decisions with the football.  26 passing Tds is hardly a game manger.  Our own Flacco has yet to set that mark as a QB. 

He's a major game manager. He's not asked to go out and win games. 

 

26 touchdowns is all great and dandy, but you realize Wilson isn't even the first option on the team, right? Marshawn Lynch is the primary option. The Seahawks love to run the ball and would prefer to run the ball to throwing it.

[flynismo]

Guys like Newton, Griffin, and Wilson might be runners that are asked to run the ball and score for their teams, but that doesn't exactly mean they're top tier quarterbacks for it. Andrew Luck is the most efficient runner in the entire NFL, but he's not running the ball 100 times a season. Point being, it may add another dimension, but most quarterbacks in the league are not what Michael Vick was with his legs. Remember, Mike Vick had over 1000 yards rushing in a season.

I acknowledge that Vick was an exceptional example to make my point, but it comes down to this -- a TD is a TD is a TD. A beautiful 18 yard bullet from Flacco doesn't count for more points than a 6 yard scramble by Newton. Being able to make plays on your feet is critical, and absolutely does factor in when judging a QB. What is Big Ben without his legs? Are Rodgers and Luck still who they are if they lose their mobility? Being a mobile QB is more than just being a glorified RB. It has a tremendous impact on the rest of the offense when a QB can evade a pass rush long enough to keep a play alive, or even to just avoid a sack and throw the ball away instead.

[flynismo]

Flacco can break that record and still be successful. If anyone can it has to be him. We all saw the spectacular playoff run. Its in him to perform this way he just needs the pieces he just acquired. You have to have a /Rara/ kinda guy at receiver. It makes everything better.

hmm...maybe you have a point. After all, Brady did it during the 2007 season. Put up stupid stats AND won games,so I suppose big stats doesn't ALWAYS have to mean sacrificing wins.

Now all we need is Randy Moss and Wes Welker in their primes and let's go do this!

[BmoreBird22]

I acknowledge that Vick was an exceptional example to make my point, but it comes down to this -- a TD is a TD is a TD. A beautiful 18 yard bullet from Flacco doesn't count for more points than a 6 yard scramble by Newton. Being able to make plays on your feet is critical, and absolutely does factor in when judging a QB. What is Big Ben without his legs? Are Rodgers and Luck still who they are if they lose their mobility? Being a mobile QB is more than just being a glorified RB. It has a tremendous impact on the rest of the offense when a QB can evade a pass rush long enough to keep a play alive, or even to just avoid a sack and throw the ball away instead.

But now you're talking about being able to move around and avoid pressure. Big Ben doesn't scramble a lot, but I agree his legs are valuable. Flacco is an underrated athlete with really good ability to get outside the pocket and throw on the run without losing velocity. Drew Brees is one of the best about moving in the pocket and using his legs to avoid pressure. 

But that doesn't make any of them running quarterbacks like Vick. I'm not going to go nuts over a quarterback because they can run the ball because while they can run the ball, that can come with trouble. A quarterback may rely too much on his athleticism and instead of getting rid of the ball, try to extend the play and having it end in a sack, or turning to run instead of standing in and making the big throw. 

 

It's a double edged blade and quarterbacks need to know how to use their legs for it to really matter. Sure, RGIII is the fastest quarterback in the league, but he's a less efficient runner than Andrew Luck. I'm more impressed with Luck, who doesn't run as much, over Wilson, who's asked to run a lot.

[PolishRifle]

Does Seattle not do the same with Marshawn Lynch?

 

True, about the running out the clock part. Seattle is running the ball alot, but Wilson does have more opportunities to score. Hence the slightly better TD numbers (eventhough, I don't think those numbers are significantly better). It also involves fewer deep throws, so it's easier to take care of the ball. 

[Guest RBates]

That's nice, and Wilson is good, but it's easy to get caught up in watching a QB play that backyard football because:

 

1. If he does get sacked, you usually blame the protection or receivers and go "Well, he almost made something out of nothing". So even though it might hurt the offense overall, the QB can only make himself look better. Unless...

 

2. He throws a pick. Fortunately for Wilson, he had 2 receivers (Kearse is almost another) who consistently win matchups for their QB. They get position on the ball, they find it, and they make the great play. Wilson is free to throw it in their direction and not be picked off, and again, it always looks like a great play by the QB.

 

It might not appear as impressive, but it's still better to be able to make the throw before having to do all that stuff. Wilson and some other QBs (Alex Smith comes to mind) are too trigger shy. Hence the "game manager" label. Peyton and Brady don't get themselves in that situation and that quality is being underrated.

 I haven't heard really anyone call Wilson a game manager.  However if that is true then 90% of the league should be labeled that also.  He is better than lots of NFL quarterbacks at this point in their careers,  I would take him over Peyton and Brady at this point in their career. Peyton just stinks in big games period.  He stunk against us the year before last and had the worst Super Bowl showing in recent memory. i LOVE THE GUY BUT WHEN IT'S ALL SAID AND DONE I WONT FORGET ALL THE BIG GAMES HE CHOKED IN. 

 

Wilson helps team win Super Bowl during his sophomore slump and gets no credit. WOW!!!

 

hmm...maybe you have a point. After all, Brady did it during the 2007 season. Put up stupid stats AND won games,so I suppose big stats doesn't ALWAYS have to mean sacrificing wins.

Now all we need is Randy Moss and Wes Welker in their primes and let's go do this!

We have Wes Welker he just changed his name to Steve smith. lol

[Guest RBates]

He's a major game manager. He's not asked to go out and win games. 

 

26 touchdowns is all great and dandy, but you realize Wilson isn't even the first option on the team, right? Marshawn Lynch is the primary option. The Seahawks love to run the ball and would prefer to run the ball to throwing it.

 

He's a major game manager. He's not asked to go out and win games. 

 

26 touchdowns is all great and dandy, but you realize Wilson isn't even the first option on the team, right? Marshawn Lynch is the primary option. The Seahawks love to run the ball and would prefer to run the ball to throwing it.

This is the best i can do to help you. http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/885/wilson-and-luck-tough-in-the-clutch.

 

This should sum it up. 

[PolishRifle]

This is the best i can do to help you. http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/885/wilson-and-luck-tough-in-the-clutch.

 

This should sum it up. 

The same applies to "your" QB as well:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/4528/joe-flacco-among-nfls-most-clutch-qbs

[ravensnick]

remember, when it comes to Qbs, you want a passing qb who can run, not a running qb who can pass.

[TDubbs]

yeah....to continue on my point about Vick, look at what happened when he got hurt and they put Schaub in for a few games. In the same system, same teammates, Schaub put up huge numbers. But ATL lost those games.

 

It's all about perceived threat. Vick in his prime scared everyone, could beat you w/ his arms and legs. Schaub was not scary. Alternatively, Flacco has the best deep ball in the game, best believe teams game plan for that. Also, QB rushing TD's count just as much as passing TD's .. 6 points is 6 points.

[BmoreBird22]

This is the best i can do to help you. http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/885/wilson-and-luck-tough-in-the-clutch.

 

This should sum it up.

The state I find most impressive is Andrew Luck has lost like one or two games when the opponent scores more than 25 points. Has a team ever scored more than 25 against the Seahawks?

Probably, but the point is that Wilson has a defense and running game that keeps him in it. I'd be interested to see his stats in those situations because, again, it is just a stat with no context

[PolishRifle]

The state I find most impressive is Andrew Luck has lost like one or two games when the opponent scores more than 25 points. Has a team ever scored more than 25 against the Seahawks?

Probably, but the point is that Wilson has a defense and running game that keeps him in it. I'd be interested to see his stats in those situations because, again, it is just a stat with no context

 

As much as I defend Joe, I didn't believe in him as a franchise QB until he got on his playoff run in 2012. For the first time our defense was struggling and for some reason Rice started making a bunch of mistakes (dunno, if it's as common for him during the playoffs as some claimed). That being said, Joe did win a SB with an above average team against arguably superior competition, which proved, that Joe doesn't necessarily need a ton of help around him. 

 

I like Wilson actually, but putting him in the top tier of QBs after just 2 productive seasons on a loaded team is a bit much. I don't think he proved, that he can win, if the situation isn't optimal for him. Heck, that crowd noise in Seattle must be helpfull as well.

[flynismo]

But now you're talking about being able to move around and avoid pressure. Big Ben doesn't scramble a lot, but I agree his legs are valuable. Flacco is an underrated athlete with really good ability to get outside the pocket and throw on the run without losing velocity. Drew Brees is one of the best about moving in the pocket and using his legs to avoid pressure. 

But that doesn't make any of them running quarterbacks like Vick. I'm not going to go nuts over a quarterback because they can run the ball because while they can run the ball, that can come with trouble. A quarterback may rely too much on his athleticism and instead of getting rid of the ball, try to extend the play and having it end in a sack, or turning to run instead of standing in and making the big throw. 

 

It's a double edged blade and quarterbacks need to know how to use their legs for it to really matter. Sure, RGIII is the fastest quarterback in the league, but he's a less efficient runner than Andrew Luck. I'm more impressed with Luck, who doesn't run as much, over Wilson, who's asked to run a lot.

 

Bottom line is, there is no way anyone can convince me that having the ability to make plays with their feet does not increase a QBs value.

[BmoreBird22]

Bottom line is, there is no way anyone can convince me that having the ability to make plays with their feet does not increase a QBs value.

Then most quarterbacks in the league outside of a select few have increased value

[hawkprey]

 I haven't heard really anyone call Wilson a game manager.  However if that is true then 90% of the league should be labeled that also.  He is better than lots of NFL quarterbacks at this point in their careers,  I would take him over Peyton and Brady at this point in their career. Peyton just stinks in big games period.  He stunk against us the year before last and had the worst Super Bowl showing in recent memory. i LOVE THE GUY BUT WHEN IT'S ALL SAID AND DONE I WONT FORGET ALL THE BIG GAMES HE CHOKED IN. 

 

Wilson helps team win Super Bowl during his sophomore slump and gets no credit. WOW!!!

 

We have Wes Welker he just changed his name to Steve smith. lol

I'm fine with you thinking Wilson is one of the best QBs today, and also better than Flacco. I just think people need to better understand the difference between helping the team win and looking good doing it. QBs are the most valuable players because they throw the ball, so I want my QB to be the one who has the least problem with doing that.

 

For Peyton... I don't know. That's another discussion.

[hawkprey]

It's all about perceived threat. Vick in his prime scared everyone, could beat you w/ his arms and legs. Schaub was not scary. Alternatively, Flacco has the best deep ball in the game, best believe teams game plan for that. Also, QB rushing TD's count just as much as passing TD's .. 6 points is 6 points.

I kind of disagree with the rushing TDs theory. Most rushing TDs are 1 or 2 yard QB sneaks that the RB could've gotten himself. Or they could've been handoffs or laterals that wouldn't be added to their stats anyway. There is no substitute for throwing the ball. As a reverse argument, Ray Rice had a passing TD in 2011, and it's nice that he could conceivably throw for TDs, but no one's going to use that as an argument to why he's better than some other RB. 

[TDubbs]

I kind of disagree with the rushing TDs theory. Most rushing TDs are 1 or 2 yard QB sneaks that the RB could've gotten himself. Or they could've been handoffs or laterals that wouldn't be added to their stats anyway. There is no substitute for throwing the ball. As a reverse argument, Ray Rice had a passing TD in 2011, and it's nice that he could conceivably throw for TDs, but no one's going to use that as an argument to why he's better than some other RB. 

Your right, there definitely is no substitute for throwing the ball. I want my QB to stand in the pocket and deliver the pigskin. It's the threat of a QB's ability to run the ball that makes a significant difference though. As a defense when your facing Kaepernick, a guy who could take off running for 60+ yards at any time, your playing a little more hesitant. That has to increase a players value. 

[hawkprey]

Your right, there definitely is no substitute for throwing the ball. I want my QB to stand in the pocket and deliver the pigskin. It's the threat of a QB's ability to run the ball that makes a significant difference though. As a defense when your facing Kaepernick, a guy who could take off running for 60+ yards at any time, your playing a little more hesitant. That has to increase a players value. 

It does, but the fact that Kaepernick has a rushing threat is already incorporated in his passer rating. Then, I agree, he should also get a little extra credit for the rushing stats he puts up. The point though, is that if we call him a "100 rating passer AND a dual threat", we'd be double counting. It's like with Wilson - if you take his passer rating, that's his passer rating "when he decides to throw the ball". Not when he drops back on a given pass play. Unless I'm wrong about him picking and choosing when to throw, but I don't think I am.

[TDubbs]

I see what you mean. With Wilson, his passer rating reflects the high percentage passing situations he is always in, including the threat of the run. Alternatively, you have a guy like Andrew Luck who passes the ball almost every down, but still has the athletic ability to run a few TD's here or there. That's the new NFL though, we now have QB's that can both pocket pass and run the ball. However, we haven't seen guys like Newton or Kaep over the long-term show how durable a dual threat QB can be.