Torrey Smith / Andre Johnson Value?

[flynismo]

Just a little:

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000350045/article/andre-johnson-on-texans-is-this-still-the-place-for-me

 

Can you imagine Ray Lewis standing up there talking about how BAL isn't the place for him anymore?

 

I mean really man, this is a conversation for behind closed doors with your employer...

[gabefergy]

I don't think his issue is money. He's sick of being in a constant rebuilding process. The way he looks at it, he has a new HC, new OC, and new scheme to learn. As well as now having to break in a new QB. I think he's just tired of it. If he's going to a new system, it might as well be with a new team who is a contender. He's only been to the playoffs twice in his career and he wants a chance to win.

This.

[flynismo]

Proof?

Of what? Crying for more money and skipping OTA (again)? It is well documented. 15 seconds on google is all you need

[gabefergy]

Can you imagine Ray Lewis standing up there talking about how BAL isn't the place for him anymore?

I mean really man, this is a conversation for behind closed doors with your employer...

Like when he made a huge ordeal about if he was going to come back to the Ravens after his contract was up?

[bMore Heathen]

Of what? Crying for more money and skipping OTA (again)? It is well documented. 15 seconds on google is all you need

Damn, you have some serious hatred for the guy...

[gabefergy]

Of what? Crying for more money and skipping OTA (again)? It is well documented. 15 seconds on google is all you need

Like Ray Lewis never skipped OTAs. Give me a break.

[flynismo]

Damn, you have some serious hatred for the guy...

No, I don't. I'm just throwing out facts about a guy that is being discussed.

[RavensNation14]

First off, you are assuming that Andre is about to fall of a cliff. He's been one of the most productive WRs in the NFL for the past 2 years. He has several good years left. I would take Johnson over Torrey any day of the week. He's one of the best WRs to ever play in the NFL,  while Torrey is a fast dude who is not a complete player. 

 

Your second point is a stronger argument for why Torrey will likely resign, but we let Ellerbe go when we had no one to replace him. The only player behind Kruger was a Upshaw, who had shown nothing as a pass-rusher. We didn't have anyone proven to replace Graham or Jones either, yet they still walked.

He's going to hit his wall eventually though, every player does. I'd take Torrey who is in his prime and has minimal injury history than an older vet who will maybe play 2 years and is going to steadily decline. Torrey still isn't a finished product and is only going to get better. He was pretty raw coming out of MD and not to mention our WR's coach didn't do much for him. 

 

Let's say if we did get Andre and we didn't resign Smith. Andre will be 32-33 and Steve Smith is 35. Flacco has no chemistry with Andre while Flacco has chemistry with Torrey. Andre has nagging hamstring injuries and is losing his speed. You really want to have our #1 and #2 guys being 32+? Taking away guys Joe is familiar with is going to hurt him even more. 

 

Obviously your going to have players walk that's just how the business is. Ellerbe had one good year and he never played a full season. Kruger also had only one good year and other than that wasn't impressive. I'd rather keep Upshaw than paying Kruger ridiculous money like the Browns did. As I said above Graham didn't want to stay here and be limited to nickel responsibilities, he knows he should be a #1 or #2 CB so he left. Jones I was upset about him leaving, but we pretty much knew he was going to be gone. He was way out of our price range and we drafted guys that could take over for him. 

[flynismo]

Like when he made a huge ordeal about if he was going to come back to the Ravens after his contract was up?

Yeah, that clearly wasn't a ploy to get as much money as he can from us. Very comparable to AJ throwing his team under the bus while in the middle of the contract  

[gabefergy]

He's going to hit his wall eventually though, every player does. I'd take Torrey who is in his prime and has minimal injury history than an older vet who will maybe play 2 years here before he drops off majorly. Torrey still isn't a finished product and is only going to get better. He was pretty raw coming out of MD and not to mention our WR's coach didn't do much for him.

Let's say if we did get Andre and we didn't resign Smith. Andre will be 32-33 and Steve Smith is 35. Flacco has no chemistry with Andre while Flacco has chemistry with Torrey. Andre has nagging hamstring injuries and is losing his speed. You really want to have our #1 and #2 guys being 32+?

Obviously your going to have players walk that's just how the business is. Ellerbe had one good year and he never played a full season. Kruger also had only one good year and other than that wasn't impressive. I'd rather keep Upshaw than paying Kruger ridiculous money like the Browns did. As I said above Graham didn't want to stay here and be limited to nickel responsibilities, he knows he should be a #1 or #2 CB so he left. Jones I was upset about him leaving, but we pretty much knew he was going to be gone. He was way out of our price range and we drafted guys that could take over for him.

I'm not saying the Ravens were wrong in letting those players go, but I don't think it's written in stone that Torrey will be extended either. He's been a good player but his development is not necessarily where you would want it to be. A lot if the metrics suggest he really hasn't improved much at all. The only reason his numbers went up last year was an increase in volume. So is he really a player that the Ravens are going to shell out big bucks for? There were whispers about possibly trading him after the end of the season, it's not not completely unreasonable to think about it if they don't expect to reach a reasonable contract with him.

[gabefergy]

Yeah, that clearly wasn't a ploy to get as much money as he can from us. Very comparable to AJ throwing his team under the bus while in the middle of the contract

Lol you and your purple shaded glasses.

[RavensNation14]

I'm not saying the Ravens were wrong in letting those players go, but I don't think it's written in stone that Torrey will be extended either. He's been a good player but his development is not necessarily where you would want it to be. A lot if the metrics suggest he really hasn't improved much at all. The only reason his numbers went up last year was an increase in volume. So is he really a player that the Ravens are going to shell out big bucks for? There were whispers about possibly trading him after the end of the season, it's not not completely unreasonable to think about it if they don't expect to reach a reasonable contract with him.

Nothing's ever certain, but when you look at the facts Torrey is going to stay here. Unless something crazy happens (we never know) I don't see him leaving even if he does get more money. That also has to do with our WR's coach. It's not like Torrey is upset here or isn't getting the ball his way enough, he's completely content here so why would he leave? He's never complained once or even talked about leaving Baltimore. 

 

Can I ask where you were hearing these whispers from because I never saw anyone talk about us doing that. Unless the media made something up, thats completely false. 

[flynismo]

Lol you and your purple shaded glasses.

ah, the classic 'I don't agree with you so therefore you are a homer argument'. Keep grasping for straws, I promise you our FO isn't stupid enough to do this trade, or any trade, for AJ unless HOU is paying that salary for us.

[usmccharles]

I have no issue with what AJ said.  This is a guy who never speaks or says anything at any time.  He vented his frustration because he wants to win, i really dont think he wants more money, He already makes great money.  Him bringing up the fact hes been to the playoffs twice, i think he just wants to experience a winning organization.   Yea he could of done this behind closed doors but he didnt, its done and i dont blame him

[gabefergy]

Nothing's ever certain, but when you look at the facts Torrey is going to stay here. Unless something crazy happens (we never know) I don't see him leaving even if he does get more money. That also has to do with our WR's coach. It's not like Torrey is upset here or isn't getting the ball his way enough, he's completely content here so why would he leave? He's never complained once or even talked about leaving Baltimore.

Can I ask where you were hearing these whispers from because I never saw anyone talk about us doing that. Unless the media made something up, thats completely false.

Its from an insider who posts on another website. Fwiw he's been spot on with all of his other information so I would imagine there is some validity. I don't think anything was close to happening, more like the FO would listen to any offers.

[Purple_ICE 81]

As much as us fans would love to see Andre Johnson as a Raven...it wont happen. He has nearly $30M left on his contract through 2016, and he is getting up there in age and its not wise to invest that much on someone with injury concerns who may play 2-4 more effective seasons, we already have Smiff anyway. And I seriously doubt that #1 we would even consider trading Torrey Smith, and #2 why would the Texans trade away a much better WR for a less talented one? Thats not gonna happen.

 

This is an intriguing situation and I would LOVE to see Andre Johnson one of the top 3 WRs in the NFL even at age 33, go catch passes from Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Rodgers or Manning. His stats were epic with crummy ol Matt Schaub throwing to him in a run heavy offense...he could absolutely go off with a great QB throwing to him.

[gabefergy]

ah, the classic 'I don't agree with you so therefore you are a homer argument'. Keep grasping for straws, I promise you our FO isn't stupid enough to do this trade, or any trade, for AJ unless HOU is paying that salary for us.

No it's because you completely dismiss the fact that a number of Ravens players have done the exact same thing that AJ did, but you don't care. Completely hypocritical.

[gabefergy]

As much as us fans would love to see Andre Johnson as a Raven...it wont happen. He has nearly $30M left on his contract through 2016, and he is getting up there in age and its not wise to invest that much on someone with injury concerns who may play 2-4 more effective seasons, we already have Smiff anyway. And I seriously doubt that #1 we would even consider trading Torrey Smith, and #2 why would the Texans trade away a much better WR for a less talented one? Thats not gonna happen.

This is an intriguing situation and I would LOVE to see Andre Johnson one of the top 3 WRs in the NFL even at age 33, go catch passes from Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Rodgers or Manning. His stats were epic with crummy ol Matt Schaub throwing to him in a run heavy offense...he could absolutely go off with a great QB throwing to him.

The reason why Houston would trade him is because he doenst want to play for them. Who knows what lengths he will go to, but they are in a tough spot. If they can get any young talent back for him it's a deal that makes sense on their end.

[flynismo]

Its from an insider who posts on another website

Proof? Or should we just take your word for it?

[flynismo]

No it's because you completely dismiss the fact that a number of Ravens players have done the exact same thing that AJ did, but you don't care. Completely hypocritical.

Because I pointed out the obvious difference between a guy on the free agent market trying to get his best offer, and a guy already one of the highest paid players in the league, halfway through a contract, demanding more money and holding out for it? Whatever you say chief.

[gabefergy]

Because I pointed out the obvious difference between a guy on the free agent market trying to get his best offer, and a guy already one of the highest paid players in the league, halfway through a contract, demanding more money and holding out for it? Whatever you say chief.

He really wasn't on a big contract. He was actually well underpaid and the Texans agreed because they gave him the extension he deserved.

[Purple_ICE 81]

The reason why Houston would trade him is because he doenst want to play for them. Who knows what lengths he will go to, but they are in a tough spot. If they can get any young talent back for him it's a deal that makes sense on their end.

It would never happen...no way we give up Torrey Smith even if it were for Andre Johnson Ozzies not that dumb. The Texans will likely be looking for 2015 draft picks anyway,  and Andre will probably have to hold out for a while before anything happens. 

 

I could see NE, NOLA, Carolina, Denver, Seattle, maybe even Greenbay trading for him. Contenders would be dumb not to consider him for a 3rd rounder..or maybe even a 2nd. Im eager to see if and where he goes.

[gabefergy]

It would never happen...no way we give up Torrey Smith even if it were for Andre Johnson Ozzies not that dumb. The Texans will likely be looking for 2015 draft picks anyway, and Andre will probably have to hold out for a while before anything happens.

I could see NE, NOLA, Carolina, Denver, Seattle, maybe even Greenbay trading for him. Contenders would be dumb not to consider him for a 3rd rounder..or maybe even a 2nd. Im eager to see if and where he goes.

What's more valuable, a future FA or a 3rd round pick? The Ravens would be dumb not to consider it.

[gabefergy]

Proof? Or should we just take your word for it?

Why don't you Google it.

[Geving]

Why don't you Google it.

Couldn't find anything. Link please?

[gabefergy]

Couldn't find anything. Link please?

It's buried in some thread months old. I tried to find it but it will take some time.

[Purple_ICE 81]

What's more valuable, a future FA or a 3rd round pick? The Ravens would be dumb not to consider it.

Im not saying the Ravens wont try and trade for Andre Johnson for a draft pick(s)...shoot I hope they do. Im saying trading Torrey Smith for Andre Johnson straight up will never happen. Torrey is coming off a career year...why would we just throw him away? 

 

I still dont see the trade happening though considering we already have our veteran WR in Steve Smith (who was putting up Andre Johnson #s in 2011 and 2012) and the fact that AJ has a ton of money left on his contract too. Its a pipe dream for sure.

[Purple_ICE 81]

Yeah, that clearly wasn't a ploy to get as much money as he can from us. Very comparable to AJ throwing his team under the bus while in the middle of the contract  

If you were a top 5 WR in the NFL  who has done nothing but lead the league in receiving, go to pro bowls, and straight up dominate for 1 team over the course of 11 years and had to deal with crummy QB after crummy QB, new system after new system, and a lot of losses....wouldnt you want to get the hell out of dodge?

 

This isnt about money...Andre Johnson has already made a crap ton of money on an underpaid contract ( $90M less than Megatron...$7M less per year, and $12M less guaranteed). Its about how terrible the Texans are as a team...he has done nothing but help them and lead them as a player and they continue to struggle. He has been getting thrown to by the likes of David Carr, Matt Schaub, Tj Yates, and Case Keenum...and still has put up 220 catches 3000 yards and 10 TDs the past 2 seasons. What more does he have to do for this team? He cant throw to himself...he is 33 now and is probably tired of watching the playoffs on his couch. He has had a very successful but mostly  wasted career being thrown to by bums...he could have been SO much better than Megatron had he actually had a great QB throwing to him or been in a pass heavy scheme like Detroit back when he was in his prime.

 

Andre Johnson deserves to play where he has a chance to help a team go to a super bowl, he has already wasted 11 years doing nothing in Houston and doesnt have much time left.

[gabefergy]

Im not saying the Ravens wont try and trade for Andre Johnson for a draft pick(s)...shoot I hope they do. Im saying trading Torrey Smith for Andre Johnson straight up will never happen. Torrey is coming off a career year...why would we just throw him away?

I still dont see the trade happening though considering we already have our veteran WR in Steve Smith (who was putting up Andre Johnson #s in 2011 and 2012) and the fact that AJ has a ton of money left on his contract too. Its a pipe dream for sure.

As far as I'm concerned this is completely hypothetical. There would be a lot of hoops to jump through to get AJ here. I'm more focused on the relative value of Torrey Smith, as a soon to be FA in comparison to an All-time great WR nearing the end of his prime.

[gabefergy]

Couldn't find anything. Link please?

here ya go

 

http://www.baltimoresportsandlife.com/forum/index.php?/topic/7198-will-there-be-firings-at-year-end-after-the-pats-debacle/page-3#entry242928