Torrey Smith / Andre Johnson Value?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

So many merged threads both in Ravens Talk and Other NFL Teams on this lol

Nothing on the twitter feed, where did you hear it from?

 

 

Agreed, merging the Andre Johnson discontent - desiring trade talk with a Torrey Smith value thread totally bogged down the value of either discussion. Bc now the Torrey talk has gone to extension, and the Andre talk is becoming strictly his trade value.

 

The 2 conversations (while I understood why initially merged) have gone in 2 totally different directions and make absolutely no sense now.

[PurpleCityLights]

Lets trade Flacco to......

[52520Andrew]

Agreed, merging the Andre Johnson discontent - desiring trade talk with a Torrey Smith value thread totally bogged down the value of either discussion. Bc now the Torrey talk has gone to extension, and the Andre talk is becoming strictly his trade value.

The 2 conversations (while I understood why initially merged) have gone in 2 totally different directions and make absolutely no sense now.

If anything materializes with the Torrey extension anytime soon, that will get its own thread I am sure.

[gabefergy]

Torrey as a free agent is going to get more than the 45mil owed to Johnson in the next 3 years?

Thats the part you're overlooking. We're going to actually be able to keep Torrey and not gut 2 other starters to keep him on the roster. Johnson is obviously a better receiver in every way, but you're essentially giving up 3 (odd) guys, including Torrey, to even get Johnson under the cap.

Some of that money would have to be taken on by Houston for sure. On the other hand if Torrey stays in Baltimore, he's going to be given a lot of money. It might not be want Andre makes in the last couple years of his contract, but it's going to be a lot. I'd rather have Andre at a slightly higher number than Torrey. If you also weigh the possibility that Torrey might not resign here it makes the trade that much more appealing for the Ravens.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Some of that money would have to be taken on by Houston for sure. On the other hand if Torrey stays in Baltimore, he's going to be given a lot of money. It might not be want Andre makes in the last couple years of his contract, but it's going to be a lot. I'd rather have Andre at a slightly higher number than Torrey. If you also weigh the possibility that Torrey might not resign here it makes the trade that much more appealing for the Ravens.

 

 

Torrey's not going any where. You sign him to his extension and go get Andre for a 3rd or 4th rounder contingent that he re-works his contract where you give him an extra 2 years, a little more guarantee and worked so you can cut him year 3 if he declines too much....

 

I think Andre would be very open to re-working a team friendly deal if he can land on a contender. His motivation, by the sounds of it is winning now. Dude wants to contend more than make money. I doubt he'll play for free but he knows if he goes to a contender - most are cap strapped.

 

Oz would have to work his magic, but hes done more with less.

[gabefergy]

Torrey's not going any where. You sign him to his extension and go get Andre for a 3rd or 4th rounder contingent that he re-works his contract where you give him an extra 2 years, a little more guarantee and worked so you can cut him year 3 if he declines too much....

Oz would have to work his magic, but hes done more with less.

Honestly, you or I have no clue if Torrey stays here or not. We know that Ozzie is not going to overpay. I would say it's likely he is extended, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

If we can come away with Torrey and Andre it's a major coup. I dont see a way that could work though.

[RavensNation14]

Honestly, you or I have no clue if Torrey stays here or not. We know that Ozzie is not going to overpay. I would say it's likely he is extended, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

If we can come away with Torrey and Andre it's a major coup. I dont see a way that could work though.

Torrey has no reason to leave Baltimore. He loves the area, he went to MD, and he's won a SB here. Very few Ravens want to leave Baltimore because it is one of the best organizations in the NFL. He's not going to get #1 money either, I could see him getting something similar to Decker. 

 

No way we can get both of those guys. I would love it if we could, but I'd rather resign Torrey and Jimmy next year. 

[gabefergy]

Torrey has no reason to leave Baltimore. He loves the area, he went to MD, and he's won a SB here. Very few Ravens want to leave Baltimore because it is one of the best organizations in the NFL. He's not going to get #1 money either, I could see him getting something similar to Decker.

No way we can get both of those guys. I would love it if we could, but I'd rather resign Torrey and Jimmy next year.

What about Ellerbe, Kruger, Jones, Graham, Reed. The list goes on and on.

Players leave to take more money. If you think otherwise you are being incredibly naive.

[RavensNation14]

What about Ellerbe, Kruger, Jones, Graham, Reed. The list goes on and on.

Players leave to take more money. If you think otherwise you are being incredibly naive.

Ellerbe got offered a monster contract by Miami who completely over payed him. No team is going to throw that money at Torrey Smith. Kruger also had the same thing happen with the Browns and had a better opportunity to shine there. Corey Graham didn't want to be limited to the nickel situations anymore because Jimmy Smith beat him out for the CB job. I would leave too if that was the case. We knew Reed was pretty much done that's why we offered him such a small contract. He wanted to keep playing and at his age I would take that money all day that Houston gave him. Major mistake by them. A lot of those guys you mentioned were completely over paid as well, so that's a big reason they left. 

 

I agree, but when your in the position that Torrey is in where he's in his prime, has an established QB, one of the best franchises in the NFL, and how involved he's be in the community, he's not leaving. Were not going to give him an offer he's going to refuse. We negotiate with players on contracts very well and give them fair salaries. Torrey knows that and he'd be dumb if he left. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Honestly, you or I have no clue if Torrey stays here or not. We know that Ozzie is not going to overpay. I would say it's likely he is extended, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

If we can come away with Torrey and Andre it's a major coup. I dont see a way that could work though.

 

 

Im not saying Andre is likely or even a possibility, just building a scenario that it could work. And while no, I don't know for sure that Torrey stays they're already working on an extension.

 

Torrey is a raven, and the type we don't let go. He represents everything this team, organization and city stand for.... and is a young, productive and improving player. More importantly Torrey wants to be here. "Overpaying" is relative. Both sides want it to happen and they'll find a fair middle ground.

 

No I can't guarantee it, but I'd bet my house on it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

What about Ellerbe, Kruger, Jones, Graham, Reed. The list goes on and on.

Players leave to take more money. If you think otherwise you are being incredibly naive.

 

Wait...... are you really comparing Ellerbe, Kruger, Jones, Graham or Reed to Torrey???

 

Jones is the only one that isn't a laughable comparison, but he wasn't a priority. He happened to play at a position we were somewhat deep, had already invested high draft picks to replace and already had big money tied up in Ngata, He was a quality player but not a leader or face of the franchise type guy.

 

Torrey isn't even in the same conversation man.

[gabefergy]

Ellerbe got offered a monster contract by Miami who completely over payed him. No team is going to throw that money at Torrey Smith. Kruger also had the same thing happen with the Browns and had a better opportunity to shine there. Corey Graham didn't want to be limited to the nickel situations anymore because Jimmy Smith beat him out for the CB job. I would leave too if that was the case. We knew Reed was pretty much done that's why we offered him such a small contract. He wanted to keep playing and at his age I would take that money all day that Houston gave him. Major mistake by them. A lot of those guys you mentioned were completely over paid as well, so that's a big reason they left. 

 

I agree, but when your in the position that Torrey is in where he's in his prime, has an established QB, one of the best franchises in the NFL, and how involved he's be in the community, he's not leaving. Were not going to give him an offer he's going to refuse. We negotiate with players on contracts very well and give them fair salaries. Torrey knows that and he'd be dumb if he left. 

Let me stop you after the first line. Did anyone expect the Dolphins to throw 7M a year at Ellerbe? It seems like you are living in a fantasy land of what you want to see happen.

[gabefergy]

Wait...... are you really comparing Ellerbe, Kruger, Jones, Graham or Reed to Torrey???

 

Jones is the only one that isn't a laughable comparison, but he wasn't a priority. He happened to play at a position we were somewhat deep, had already invested high draft picks to replace and already had big money tied up in Ngata, He was a quality player but not a leader or face of the franchise type guy.

 

Torrey isn't even in the same conversation man.

It's the exact same thing. It all comes down to money. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you.

[Alexir]

It's been debated whether or not Torrey Smith is an "elite" receiver.

I don't like to call guys "number 1s" or "number 2s" etc.

But... for the sake of argument, I have a hypothetical for you:

Texans aren't going to compete this year, and Andre Johnson has earned the right to request a trade to a contender.

Do you trade Torrey Smith(and perhaps a mid-to-late round pick) for Andre Johnson?

I assume we all agree Andre Johnson is a upper-echelon receiver. He probably only has 2-3 more good years left. Meanwhile Torrey Smith is young and already has chemistry with Flacco.

Do you trade long-term security, for a chance at another title this year or next? Torrey will eventually want to get paid. He's still on his rookie deal. Andre Johnson also already knows Kubiak's offense. He blocks well(even though Torrey isn't horrible at it), which will help in the running game.

This isn't really for those who believe Torrey is a great receiver... it's more for those who have questioned whether he's that talented. Those who feel he's really only a deep-threat guy. Obviously if you already feel Torrey Smith is a great all-around receiver, then you're not going to sacrifice the next 7 years for the next 2.

Why do you say the texans aren't going to compete? That defense got better and they do play in a pretty weak division.

I wouldn't trade for Andre. I would trade Pitta, Flacco and Torrey for Calvin though!!!! Just have Tucker throw him the ball

[Bltravens]

Some of that money would have to be taken on by Houston for sure. On the other hand if Torrey stays in Baltimore, he's going to be given a lot of money. It might not be want Andre makes in the last couple years of his contract, but it's going to be a lot. I'd rather have Andre at a slightly higher number than Torrey. If you also weigh the possibility that Torrey might not resign here it makes the trade that much more appealing for the Ravens.

 

I still don't see the trade off.  At the end of Torrey's contract we have Andre for only 2 more years.  There's no chance Torrey gets over 10 a year based on how he's played in the NFL.  Then you have to weigh having Andre be a shell of himself while Torrey continues his current trend for the next 7 years.  As a GM you have to continually look forward.  Torrey has far more value to a team after the next 3 years than Andre does.  Especially knowing how bad we are at evaluating WR talent.  I think Ozzie would rather have 1 WR spot locked down for the next 6 odd years than for 3 years.

 

 

What about Ellerbe, Kruger, Jones, Graham, Reed. The list goes on and on.

Players leave to take more money. If you think otherwise you are being incredibly naive.

We had guys behind them capable of taking over.  If we had a gaping hole at DT or OLB we wouldn't have let them go.  Especially if Kruger was a 3down player we wouldn't have let him go.  We have no one under neath Torrey.  No one remotely close to taking over.

[gabefergy]

I still don't see the trade off.  At the end of Torrey's contract we have Andre for only 2 more years.  There's no chance Torrey gets over 10 a year based on how he's played in the NFL.  Then you have to weigh having Andre be a shell of himself while Torrey continues his current trend for the next 7 years.  As a GM you have to continually look forward.  Torrey has far more value to a team after the next 3 years than Andre does.

 

 

We had guys behind them capable of taking over.  If we had a gaping hole at DT or OLB we wouldn't have let them go.  Especially if Kruger was a 3down player we wouldn't have let him go.  We have no one under neath Torrey.  No one remotely close to taking over.

First off, you are assuming that Andre is about to fall of a cliff. He's been one of the most productive WRs in the NFL for the past 2 years. He has several good years left. I would take Johnson over Torrey any day of the week. He's one of the best WRs to ever play in the NFL,  while Torrey is a fast dude who is not a complete player. 

 

Your second point is a stronger argument for why Torrey will likely resign, but we let Ellerbe go when we had no one to replace him. The only player behind Kruger was a Upshaw, who had shown nothing as a pass-rusher. We didn't have anyone proven to replace Graham or Jones either, yet they still walked.

[flynismo]

I wouldn't trade for Andre. I would trade Pitta, Flacco and Torrey for Calvin though!!!! Just have Tucker throw him the ball

LOL.....

Legatron to Megatron

[Sizzlebshu]

I would, although I'm not sure if Andre's salary works under the cap.

I wouldn't (big surprise I disagree with you here). While Andre is an amazing talent, his contract, + remaining life + injury history make me vary weary of a deal like that. 

[flynismo]

First off, you are assuming that Andre is about to fall of a cliff.

 

It's a pretty safe assumption given that he is turning 33 real soon.

 

The whole premise of this thread is that AJ is an elite WR, so you should check this link out

http://iqfb.com/the-record-book/the-oldest-players-to-lead-the-league-in-receptions-by-decade/

 

Other than Jerry Rice, 32 years old seems to be the proverbial "wall"

 

That doesn't mean he will fall off the face of the earth, it means that he will probably be on Torrey's level of production for another year or two first, but again, it wouldn't be smart to make this trade with the expectation that we are getting a 1500 yard 12 TD guy

[gabefergy]

It's a pretty safe assumption given that he is turning 33 real soon.

The whole premise of this thread is that AJ is an elite WR, so you should check this link out

http://iqfb.com/the-record-book/the-oldest-players-to-lead-the-league-in-receptions-by-decade/

Other than Jerry Rice, 32 years old seems to be the proverbial "wall"

That doesn't mean he will fall off the face of the earth, it means that he will probably be on Torrey's level of production for another year or two first, but again, it wouldn't be smart to make this trade with the expectation that we are getting a 1500 yard 12 TD guy

Considering that Torrey has never even come close to sniffing the level of production that AJ puts up, I'd be willing to take that risk.

[flynismo]

Considering that Torrey has never even come close to sniffing the level of production that AJ puts up, I'd be willing to take that risk.

 

Not me.

[gabefergy]

Not me.

I'm not surprised. Most people are too in love with Torrey.

[flynismo]

BTW, it is an even numbered year....shouldn't AJ be whining to the media about wanting more money? Or is he just going to stick with throwing his team under the bus in public?

 

 

</ end character assassination >

[flynismo]

I'm not surprised. Most people are too in love with Torrey.

Has nothing to do with Torrey...especially to me; I'm the one who was livid that we drafted him, remember (I have since changed my views on him, but I do not view him as some godsend)

[gabefergy]

BTW, it is an even numbered year....shouldn't AJ be whining to the media about wanting more money? Or is he just going to stick with throwing his team under the bus in public?

</ end character assassination >

I think you have him confused with someone else. Dude is one of the classiest players in the game.

[flynismo]

I think you have him confused with someone else. Dude is one of the classiest players in the game.

 

No, he definitely likes to whine aboout getting more money, and has no shame about taking it to the media

[bMore Heathen]

BTW, it is an even numbered year....shouldn't AJ be whining to the media about wanting more money? Or is he just going to stick with throwing his team under the bus in public?

</ end character assassination >

I don't think his issue is money. He's sick of being in a constant rebuilding process. The way he looks at it, he has a new HC, new OC, and new scheme to learn. As well as now having to break in a new QB. I think he's just tired of it. If he's going to a new system, it might as well be with a new team who is a contender. He's only been to the playoffs twice in his career and he wants a chance to win.

[allblackraven]

No, he definitely likes to whine aboout getting more money, and has no shame about taking it to the media

Just a little:

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000350045/article/andre-johnson-on-texans-is-this-still-the-place-for-me

[flynismo]

I don't think his issue is money. He's sick of being in a constant rebuilding process. The way he looks at it, he has a new HC, new OC, and new scheme to learn. As well as now having to break in a new QB. I think he's just tired of it. If he's going to a new system, it might as well be with a new team who is a contender. He's only been to the playoffs twice in his career and he wants a chance to win.

I believe that is his issue NOW, but in the past, he has publicly complained about his contract, and has skipped OTA demanding a new contract when he was already in the middle of a huge contract.

[gabefergy]

I believe that is his issue NOW, but in the past, he has publicly complained about his contract, and has skipped OTA demanding a new contract when he was already in the middle of a huge contract.

Proof?