Torrey Smith / Andre Johnson Value?

[gabefergy]

It's a complex problem. If Torrey wants something like 9-10M a year, then yes, I would make that trade. If Torrey is reasonable and asks for 4-5M a year (which is probably closer to his value) then I would say no to the trade. If we were going to be paying that much to keep him, I would rather have Andre for a couple M more.

I don't think that it's debatable that Andre is a better, more consistent receiver then Torrey even at his age. It comes down to the money involved.

There isn't a chance in the world Torrey signs for 5M a year. Yes going to be looking for 7-8M minimum. If he has a big season he could get 9-10M on the open market.

[Cville-Raven]

This is the only way this happens

lol your Skip Bayless quotes could use a bit more QBR 

[usmccharles]

I find this laughable honestly.  Torrey, who is 25 years old who is still making improvements, hasnt hit his prime, should be in an offense that let Johnson blow up, could be our WR for the future.  AJ who is 32 and demands a lot more money at the moment, hes looking for his last pay day if he goes somewhere, and again...is 32.  I would much rather build a young wr corps so we dont have to deal with this issue for a while. yes we just got steve smith, but we added him to torrey, didnt trade.  We are not nor have ever been a win now team, especially with us revamping the defense at the moment, the future looks bright in Bmore, no way do we give up the one wr that is a complete game changer and still developing.

[SecretAgentMan]

You want me to be honest.. The only way we trade Andre Johnson is if we trade one of our best players for him. A trade has to be beneficial to both sides.

 

Meaning there are only 1 potential trade candidate I can see.

 

Haloti Ngata. 

 

 

Ngata, even as he's declined, would warrant a 3rd round pick from most teams negating the loss of a pick for us. He's still very good, and we've drafted enough depth to replace some of his production(not to mention, Watt-Tuitt-Ngata with Clowney as an edge rusher is just a scary thought).  Andre would allow our WR corps to become pretty formidable. It would potentially put our offense over the top, seeing as teams would have to account for 3 very good WRs. 

 

Our defense would take a hit, yes it would, but we've just LOADED up on talent there. We can afford to lose some, and we just drafted like 3 run stuffing DTs. The Texans would have an elite defense, and a QB with a pretty solid starting weapon(Hopkins). 

 

Even then, they wouldn't take that trade. The ravens defense becomes worse, and the Texans offense becomes worse. 

[SecretAgentMan]

As for trading TORREY for Andre? Hell no. You don't trade a young player who's still getting better for an aging vet, even if he's elite. 

 

Torrey at worse gets the franchise tag next season

[GrimCoconut]

You want me to be honest.. The only way we trade Andre Johnson is if we trade one of our best players for him. A trade has to be beneficial to both sides.

Meaning there are only 1 potential trade candidate I can see.

Haloti Ngata.

Ngata, even as he's declined, would warrant a 3rd round pick from most teams negating the loss of a pick for us. He's still very good, and we've drafted enough depth to replace some of his production(not to mention, Watt-Tuitt-Ngata with Clowney as an edge rusher is just a scary thought). Andre would allow our WR corps to become pretty formidable. It would potentially put our offense over the top, seeing as teams would have to account for 3 very good WRs.

Our defense would take a hit, yes it would, but we've just LOADED up on talent there. We can afford to lose some, and we just drafted like 3 run stuffing DTs. The Texans would have an elite defense, and a QB with a pretty solid starting weapon(Hopkins).

Even then, they wouldn't take that trade. The ravens defense becomes worse, and the Texans offense becomes worse.

Tuitt went to Pittsburgh, unfortunately. You're thinking of Nix

[SecretAgentMan]

Tuitt went to Pittsburgh, unfortunately. You're thinking of Nix

My mistake. I knew they got one of the ND dlinemen...

 

How the hell did I confuse those two. They're completely different players?

[flynismo]

You wouldn't give up a 3rd for Andre Johnson?

If Houston ate that $16M cap hit, then heck yeah, in a heartbeat

[flynismo]

I'd happily do that trade. 

McPhee's cap hit is something like $900k (and Torrey's is around $1m, give or take). Who are you going to release to make up for that $15M difference? We'd be giving up a 3rd, and a busload of talent to grab a soon to be 33 year old WR....not the best idea

[flynismo]

My mistake. I knew they got one of the ND dlinemen...

 

How the hell did I confuse those two. They're completely different players?

Funny enough, I was laughing @ PIT draft with my brother, and I did the same thing

[gabefergy]

McPhee's cap hit is something like $900k (and Torrey's is around $1m, give or take). Who are you going to release to make up for that $15M difference? We'd be giving up a 3rd, and a busload of talent to grab a soon to be 33 year old WR....not the best idea

Houston would have to eat some of the contract, like what Jax did last year with Monroe.

[T3hRaven]

As for trading TORREY for Andre? Hell no. You don't trade a young player who's still getting better for an aging vet, even if he's elite. 

 

Torrey at worse gets the franchise tag next season

 

No one's tagging Torrey Smith, he's not worth anywhere near that much.  I like the thinking on trading Ngata after June 1st.  That'd be brilliant for them if they're doing what they're supposed to and running a 4-3.  Ngata at 1-tech with Watt at 3-tech is a great interior DL.

 

But yeah, people greatly overrate Torrey Smith and pretty much all of our players except for Joe Flacco.

[Tru11]

so little appreciation for guys like ngata and torrey in this thread lol.

[ellicottraven]

And just to clarify, I am one of those guys who consider Torrey a "#2", whatever that means

I have to agree with your statement. Torrey isn't a true #1, again whatever that means! lol

[flynismo]

Houston would have to eat some of the contract, like what Jax did last year with Monroe.

They absolutely would. And somehow I don't believe that they'd be willing to absorb $8M (assuming we fleeced them into taking half the salary) in dead money just to move a guy that they won't get good value for anyway (Johnson's age, salary and the fact that he made it public that he wants out of HOU has stripped HOU of any leverage they may have had)

[Clayton Bigsby]

Are we even discussing this? lol

 

Our top 3 receivers would be 30+ ...then when they're gone, who do we have left? Marlon Brown as our No. 1?

[gabefergy]

They absolutely would. And somehow I don't believe that they'd be willing to absorb $8M (assuming we fleeced them into taking half the salary) in dead money just to move a guy that they won't get good value for anyway (Johnson's age, salary and the fact that he made it public that he wants out of HOU has stripped HOU of any leverage they may have had)

It depends, if they are getting a decent player or pick(s) in return they absolutely would eat some of the contract to facilitate a trade.

[flynismo]

It depends, if they are getting a decent player or pick(s) in return they absolutely would eat some of the contract to facilitate a trade.

Perhaps, but that team isn't going to be us. I will eat my underwear from yesterday and put it on YouTube if we trade for AJ

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

As I'm sure some of you have read by now, Andre Johnson has voiced his displeasure with the direction of the Texans organization.  You can read the article here .

He noted only 3 winnings season, and 2 playoff appearances. The lack of a franchise QB clearly is a driving force behind his discontent, and at 33 probably feels he doesn't have the time to wait for the FO to slowly build through the draft. Seems to me he is in "win now" mode.

A couple things:

Do you think anything will materialize out of this? And if something does, are the Ravens interested?

If he were on the trade block, are you interested?

If so, at what price? (picks and salary)


I know around here many have grown tired of continually adding the declining vet. Johnson is 33, but is certainly a different caliber than our normal vet addition. Yes the WR corps is a bit crowded already with an established Torrey, Steve Smith just signed, a developing Brown, and then Pitta/Daniels both warranting their touches.

BUT this is Andre Johnson we're talking about here. I'd say, if we could get him for a 4th round pick (if hes requesting to be traded it kinda forces the teams hand so I don't think it would take anything more than that). I think his top motivation is winning, not a big payday - don't know what his current salary/cap hit are but he might be willing to re-negotiate to land in the right spot.

Plus theres the Kubiak/Dennison/Jacoby relationship that might make us even more attractive than just our consistent playoff appearances, winnings ways, and recent Super Bowl. Plus here he'd be joining a good group of WR's where he wouldn't have to do it alone but would still clearly be the top guy.



What are your thoughts if he does become available?? (which his statements and a general hunch lead me to believe - since I don't think Houstons plan is to compete for a title this year, but to develop again, get another high draft pick and get their franchise QB next year).

 

 

---

 

As a side note - I hope this isn't taken as the typical offseason "I want this WR" type of thread. Because the player voicing the discontent and hinting at a desire to be released/trade, and because of the direct connection between Kubiak leaving and now Johnson wanting to as well, I felt it merits a genuine discussion. If you disagree I apologize ahead of time.

[rmw10]

Thread #85695 on this.

[codizzle]

Reading rumors that Torrey signed an extension??? Anybody hear anything?

[beanfigger]

I remember when I had Andre Johnson and Steve Smith on the same team, and I dominated my league.  However, that was fantasy, and about six or seven years ago.

 

I would certainly rather have AJ than Torrey as my number one, but I don't think that's the trade.  If Houston were to field offers for Johnson, I'd bet they would end up giving him up for a pick (probably 2nd or better).  I don't want to trade Torrey, and I think that isn't relevant in this scenario anyway.

[ravensdfan]

Thread #85695 on this.

 

But...it's the only one actually in Ravens Talk lol

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

It's been debated whether or not Torrey Smith is an "elite" receiver.

I don't like to call guys "number 1s" or "number 2s" etc. 

But... for the sake of argument, I have a hypothetical for you:

Texans aren't going to compete this year, and Andre Johnson has earned the right to request a trade to a contender.

Do you trade Torrey Smith(and perhaps a mid-to-late round pick) for Andre Johnson?

I assume we all agree Andre Johnson is a upper-echelon receiver.  He probably only has 2-3 more good years left.  Meanwhile Torrey Smith is young and already has chemistry with Flacco.

Do you trade long-term security, for a chance at another title this year or next?  Torrey will eventually want to get paid.  He's still on his rookie deal.  Andre Johnson also already knows Kubiak's offense.  He blocks well(even though Torrey isn't horrible at it), which will help in the running game.

This isn't really for those who believe Torrey is a great receiver... it's more for those who have questioned whether he's that talented.  Those who feel he's really only a deep-threat guy.  Obviously if you already feel Torrey Smith is a great all-around receiver, then you're not going to sacrifice the next 7 years for the next 2.

 

Why would you trade Torrey???

 

IF andre wants out, the front office wont have much of a choice or have their top player on offense ticked off, strapping their cap and not playing his best. Keep Torrey and if Andre becomes available go get him depending on what kind of pick we're talking and he needs to open to re-negotiation.

 

The fact that he's in win now mode tells me he would be open to it if he could land in a winning environment.

 

Houston is a developing team starting from scratch. If they can offload a contract, dump an aging player who wont be around in his prime when they have a chance to win, and pick up a mid-round pick in the process I guarantee they'd play ball.

 

And Kubiak/Dennison plus our WR situation and consistent winning nature may seem like an ideal spot to Andre.

 

You keep Torrey and go after Andre if/when he becomes available.

[berad]

Reading rumors that Torrey signed an extension??? Anybody hear anything?

 

Where are you hearing that? Very interesting if so

[Bltravens]

People don't understand a. how good Johnson is and b. Torrey is a free agent after 2014.

Torrey as a free agent is going to get more than the 45mil owed to Johnson in the next 3 years?

Thats the part you're overlooking.  We're going to actually be able to keep Torrey and not gut 2 other starters to keep him on the roster.  Johnson is obviously a better receiver in every way, but you're essentially giving up 3 (odd) guys, including Torrey, to even get Johnson under the cap.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I remember when I had Andre Johnson and Steve Smith on the same team, and I dominated my league.  However, that was fantasy, and about six or seven years ago.

 

I would certainly rather have AJ than Torrey as my number one, but I don't think that's the trade.  If Houston were to field offers for Johnson, I'd bet they would end up giving him up for a pick (probably 2nd or better).  I don't want to trade Torrey, and I think that isn't relevant in this scenario anyway.

 

 

Totally agree Torrey isn't the trade, its a pick. But I think you're overestimating his trade value from the Texans perspective.

 

Andre is publicly on record possibly wanting out now. That kind of forces Houstons hand. Theyre trying to rebuild and their best offensive player who wont be around when they can contend again and has a $16mill cap hit is upset. They don't want to be strapped with an upset player crippling that much of their cap who will likely underperform if not given his way.

 

Plus a team trading for him would either have to taken on that outrageous salary or hope he re-negotiates. Either way teams will know Houstons options are keep him and pay him for likely underwhelming performance (either bc of his discontent or non-existent QB play), trade him for whatever they can get or possibly release him (even though it only saves like $1mill this year).

 

I think if it gets to that point, Houston would GLADLY take a mid-round pick for him so they have one more solid year to build through draft and gives them extra ammo to go get their QB in the next draft.

 

I think a 3rd-4th or 4th-5th and a 7th would get it done. And I'd do that to bring him in. Age, salary, and the situation don't bode well for the Texans getting a 2nd or better.

[52520Andrew]

So many merged threads both in Ravens Talk and Other NFL Teams on this lol

Reading rumors that Torrey signed an extension??? Anybody hear anything?

Nothing on the twitter feed, where did you hear it from?

[codizzle]

Where are you hearing that? Very interesting if so

Couple people I follow on twitter.. None of them is anyone completely reliable like aaron Wilson etc

[PuRock]

I don't want to put a lot of thought into trading Torrey.  But if we could somehow add Andre Johnson, I would be ecstatic.  He's always been one of my favorite non-Ravens player.  High character guy.  Bring him here, where he'll play his heart out at a final shot at a ring.  @ 32 he still has gas in the tank, and is a smart football player.  

 

Just like we did with Rod Woodson, Anquan Boldin, or Ed Reed.  If he plays for us, we'll get this great his ring.  

 

From a business perspective, I don't know how this would get done.  Would be a steep road.