Switch to the 4-3?

[The Raven]

Could someone explain , gently , what we have to gain by switching our defense?

 

It would be a better use of the talent on the team.

 

Let's look at our defensive linemen

 

Haloti Ngata- Not as explosive as 4-3 DTs should be, but would be a dominant 1 tech to clog up rush lanes.

 

Chris Canty- His best years were arguably in a 4-3. He's lost some quickness, but he also struggled at times to control two gaps in 2013. I think he's best off in a 4-3 at this point.

 

Brandon Williams- Yeah, he's got the size and strength of a prototypical NT, but his game is all about penetrating and blowing people up, which is what 4-3 DTs are asked to do, mostly. He projects as a great 4-3 one tech to me.

 

DeAngelo Tyson- Struggles to handle two gaps, but he has enough athleticism and strength to control, penetrate, or dominate his own gap. He also lacks the size of a typical 3-4 DE. He's not a clogger.

 

Kapron Lewis-Moore- He could do either scheme, but his athleticism makes him a great fit for the 4-3. I sort of see a younger, more explosive Chris Canty in this guy. He played in a 3-4 in college, but I think his skill set and above average athleticism is suited better in a 4-3. 

 

Tim Jernigan- Simply put, he is the prototypical 4-3 DT. Explosive, strong, and a good penetrator. I see a little bit of John Randel in him. Some people will hate me for saying this, but he struggled when asked to control two gaps in college. He was best off when asked to control or penetrate one gap.

 

Brent Urban- He's the one that's best suited to a 3-4 I think, but he may have enough athleticism and strength to get by in a 4-3.

 

Terrell Suggs, Dumervil, Upshaw, and McPhee would all make great defensive ends in a 4-3, and I think McPhee was born to be a 4-3 LE. These guys would all improve in a 4-3 if you ask me.

 

A 4-3 would also show off Brown, Mosley, and Smith more. They'd be able to use their speed more and they wouldn't have to wade through as many guards as in a 3-4.

 

 

TL;DR? We have a lot of athleticism on our defense that would be best used in an attacking 4-3.

[arnie_uk]

Yes, but as I stated above, it is a little short sighted. Canty, Dumervil, and Smith will probably be gone after next year and Suggs and Ngata after 2015-2016 season. 4-3 is a possibility for NEXT year, but we do not have a future roster to sustain it I think. Could be wrong though...

I think this is the difference between this board and the front office. People freak out and overreact based on not making immediate impact changes. You have to think 3-5 years down the road. Do not mortgage your future with knee jerk changes in the present...we learned that after the 2000 super bowl.

With that said, next year will be strong with CBs and DE/OLBs. Would be nice to pick up a great DE/OLB in the first next year.

I think long run we are better suited 43. Jernigan, brown and mosley fit that better. And tbh they are the only ones long term I can say with certainty will be on the roster from oit front seven.

Its also easier to draft 43 players, most college guys are a better fit for it these days as that's the preferred defense at that level.

I think the days of 34 big run stuffing linemen are numbered tbh. The game is all about the pass rush. Players like aaron donald are going to be coveted in the future.

I firmly believe interior pass rush is one of the keys to having a great d in this era.

[BmoreBird22]

That's fine, but he'd be coming off the field a lot on passing downs. He has been losing one on one the last couple years; much less consuming two blockers. Maybe Canty or someone else could come in for him then. I just would not call Ngata a natural 4-3; at least not anymore.

Maybe not anymore, but he definitely was. I'd swap in Brandon Williams since he has a knack for just knifing through instead of holding his ground

[rmw10]

I know I've talked about this at length, so obviously I'm on board.  I think it's the best situation going forward.  Interior pass rush is key, and finding a 300+ pound man that can generate pressure in a 3-4 is not easy to find.  It's much easier to find these 1 gap penetrators.

 

I don't see a full on switch this year, but I do see a possible transition with eyes toward 2015.  Right now, we lack the depth at the 3T and all across LB. We can make it work this year as a transition, but not full time in my opinion.

 

It's already been mentioned, but the guys we drafted in the past couple of years are nearly perfect.

 

Arthur Brown is the perfect WLB with his coverage skills.  Mosley is perfect for MLB with his sideline to sideline ability.  Even though he's not a long term answer, Daryl Smith spent the better part of his career at SLB in the 4-3.  The issue here is the lack of depth where only Bynes and McClellan really project as 4-3 LB backups.

 

On the DL, it's a tough one.  We're a little big across the line for the 4-3, but it can work.  Ngata and Williams can man the 1T.  While not completely ideal fits, Canty, Tyson, and KLM can all rotate between the 3T and 1T.  None of them are guys that you really have to worry about getting into a specific scheme though.  We already know that Jernigan is a perfect 3T.

 

Going forward, we probably need a dynamic pass rusher at DE.  Suggs and Dumervil can handle pass rush duties.  Upshaw can play DE in running situations and if he puts on 10 pounds or so, he could also probably rotate in at the 3T.  McPhee is a perfect 4-3 DE that can slide inside on passing downs if need be.  Simon will be depth.  I actually think Urban could project well as a DE despite being bigger than normal for the position.  He could be a Lamarr Houston type of guy in my opinion.

[The Raven]

I know I've talked about this at length, so obviously I'm on board.  I think it's the best situation going forward.  Interior pass rush is key, and finding a 300+ pound man that can generate pressure in a 3-4 is not easy to find.  It's much easier to find these 1 gap penetrators.

 

I don't see a full on switch this year, but I do see a possible transition with eyes toward 2015.  Right now, we lack the depth at the 3T and all across LB. We can make it work this year as a transition, but not full time in my opinion.

 

It's already been mentioned, but the guys we drafted in the past couple of years are nearly perfect.

 

Arthur Brown is the perfect WLB with his coverage skills.  Mosley is perfect for MLB with his sideline to sideline ability.  Even though he's not a long term answer, Daryl Smith spent the better part of his career at SLB in the 4-3.  The issue here is the lack of depth where only Bynes and McClellan really project as 4-3 LB backups.

 

On the DL, it's a tough one.  We're a little big across the line for the 4-3, but it can work.  Ngata and Williams can man the 1T.  While not completely ideal fits, Canty, Tyson, and KLM can all rotate between the 3T and 1T.  None of them are guys that you really have to worry about getting into a specific scheme though.  We already know that Jernigan is a perfect 3T.

 

Going forward, we probably need a dynamic pass rusher at DE.  Suggs and Dumervil can handle pass rush duties.  Upshaw can play DE in running situations and if he puts on 10 pounds or so, he could also probably rotate in at the 3T.  McPhee is a perfect 4-3 DE that can slide inside on passing downs if need be.  Simon will be depth.  I actually think Urban could project well as a DE despite being bigger than normal for the position.  He could be a Lamarr Houston type of guy in my opinion.

 

Urban could probably drop weight, too, to better fit the position if need be. And for a guy his size, he doesn't necessarily lack athleticism. 

[rmw10]

Urban could probably drop weight, too, to better fit the position if need be. And for a guy his size, he doesn't necessarily lack athleticism. 

 

Urban isn't your typical 300ish lb. man either.  He's tall and lean, not round like most 3-4 DL.  I really do think he could work well as an oversized 4-3 DE project if we are trying to make the switch.

[The Raven]

Urban isn't your typical 300ish lb. man either.  He's tall and lean, not round like most 3-4 DL.  I really do think he could work well as an oversized 4-3 DE project if we are trying to make the switch.

 

Mario Williams made it work, too. After a brief look, he sort of reminds me of JJ Watt or Williams. I haven't watched a lot of Urban yet but from the little bit I saw, I think he's athletic enough to play DE. Definitely LE, though. I'd be confident in him at DE. 

[T3hRaven]

Urban isn't your typical 300ish lb. man either.  He's tall and lean, not round like most 3-4 DL.  I really do think he could work well as an oversized 4-3 DE project if we are trying to make the switch.

 

Like a 40 lbs heavier Michael Johnson?  That could work, although I'm still not impressed with Jernigan as the 3-tech in that situation.  In the Bengals defense, most of their rush was generated from the interior, but Zimmer is one of the best DCs in the game so I'm guessing he was scheming to his strengths.  Good luck getting that with Pees.  Although I think the 4-3 better suits his overly passive tendencies.

[gabefergy]

Like a 40 lbs heavier Michael Johnson? That could work, although I'm still not impressed with Jernigan as the 3-tech in that situation. In the Bengals defense, most of their rush was generated from the interior, but Zimmer is one of the best DCs in the game so I'm guessing he was scheming to his strengths. Good luck getting that with Pees. Although I think the 4-3 better suits his overly passive tendencies.

Yeah we don't have a Geno Atkins, but Jernigan can play 3T and so can Canty.

We spend so much time in nickel it hardly matters tbh.

[rmw10]

Like a 40 lbs heavier Michael Johnson?  That could work, although I'm still not impressed with Jernigan as the 3-tech in that situation.  In the Bengals defense, most of their rush was generated from the interior, but Zimmer is one of the best DCs in the game so I'm guessing he was scheming to his strengths.  Good luck getting that with Pees.  Although I think the 4-3 better suits his overly passive tendencies.

 

Michael Johnson is a pretty good comp.  Urban is obviously weighs much more, but it looks to be muscle weight judging by how ripped he is.  If he was a pudgy 296, I wouldn't think he could play DE, but since he's lean, I think he could make it work.  He could be a rotational guy in the interior and at the ends.

 

Yeah I mean, it's not completely ideal right now.  There would definitely still be some kinks to work out and some depth to build all along the front 7.  I still wouldn't be surprised to see us move a little more toward that this year though.

 

We just need to be able to collapse the pocket.  Art Jones was the best we had at doing that, but he's obviously gone now.  Rush off the edge is nice of course, but it still allows the QB to sit comfortably in the pocket if he doesn't have big guys coming at him as well.

[flynismo]

Maybe not anymore, but he definitely was. I'd swap in Brandon Williams since he has a knack for just knifing through instead of holding his ground

Williams would be the perfect sub for Ngata on passing downs, definitely

[gabefergy]

I wouldn't count on Williams to provide much off a pass-rush, at least based off what we saw last year.

He's more of a run-stuffer. If Ngata trimmed down a bit I think he could be a more explosive interior disruptor, but I kinda doubt that happens.

[BmoreBird22]

I wouldn't count on Williams to provide much off a pass-rush, at least based off what we saw last year.

He's more of a run-stuffer. If Ngata trimmed down a bit I think he could be a more explosive interior disruptor, but I kinda doubt that happens.

See, I thought he was good at penetrating and getting into the backfield. Even if he doesn't get a sack, I think he's a force that could collapse the pocket and force the quarterback to move. Didn't really see him as a block eater, but maybe that had to do with his technique

[gabefergy]

See, I thought he was good at penetrating and getting into the backfield. Even if he doesn't get a sack, I think he's a force that could collapse the pocket and force the quarterback to move. Didn't really see him as a block eater, but maybe that had to do with his technique

He ended up with one sack and one hurry in limited snaps as a pass rusher (39). He struggled a bit with his technique and balance, but I think he will improve in those areas.

[allblackraven]

Like others said, base package is probably beside the point. It will be again a mixture of fronts and packages since we have a number of players who can line up in various positions. This versatility is good but I'm on the cautious side because it can lead to a lot of over-thinking and miscommunication (again), particularly with a DC like Pees.

 

At least additions this year make me believe that we have good bodies to stuff the run and I think we are going to blitz way better, with Elam in his natural role and hopefully guys like Jernigan, Mosely, Brooks and A. Brown in the mix. I can also see Adrian Hamilton getting a shot at OLB, giving us that extra pass rusher to help Elvis and Suggs.

[BmoreBird22]

He ended up with one sack and one hurry in limited snaps as a pass rusher (39). He struggled a bit with his technique and balance, but I think he will improve in those areas.

I think he would be a better pass rusher if he were in a 4-3 role, but I was impressed with how he played relatively well for basically playing with just strength alone

[GrimCoconut]

I think long run we are better suited 43. Jernigan, brown and mosley fit that better. And tbh they are the only ones long term I can say with certainty will be on the roster from oit front seven.

Its also easier to draft 43 players, most college guys are a better fit for it these days as that's the preferred defense at that level.

I think the days of 34 big run stuffing linemen are numbered tbh. The game is all about the pass rush. Players like aaron donald are going to be coveted in the future.

I firmly believe interior pass rush is one of the keys to having a great d in this era.

I think Williams will be a part of our DL long term as well. He definitely has the potential from what we've seen.

I agree that I think it's easier to find 4-3 players because right now the 3-4 is trendy. I do agree that the days of the 3-4 being the preferred base are limited however.

[GrimCoconut]

As for a switch, I feel our personal are well suited for this move. I think Williams will be a better pass rusher from the DT position. I think Jernigan will also be very effective. Overall, I think Jernigan will be our replacement for Haloti Ngata. I think he'll add as much pass rush perhaps more. I think Williams will assume more of a run stuffing role to complement Jernigan. I think both will be efficient pass rushers, however. I'm really excited for the future of our defense with these two being the leaders of the DL.

I think having these two DT in the middle will make a Panther like defense for us and foster a nice environment for our LB corps. I think it'll definitely play to our strengths. The biggest weakness will be LE but I feel that can be schemed around.

[SecretAgentMan]

As for a switch, I feel our personal are well suited for this move. I think Williams will be a better pass rusher from the DT position. I think Jernigan will also be very effective. Overall, I think Jernigan will be our replacement for Haloti Ngata. I think he'll add as much pass rush perhaps more. I think Williams will assume more of a run stuffing role to complement Jernigan. I think both will be efficient pass rushers, however. I'm really excited for the future of our defense with these two being the leaders of the DL.

I think having these two DT in the middle will make a Panther like defense for us and foster a nice environment for our LB corps. I think it'll definitely play to our strengths. The biggest weakness will be LE but I feel that can be schemed around. 

I disagree with the last notion. Dumervil proved he's very capable of playing that roll, and Suggs, like Ware, would probably be a beast as a 4-3 end. 

[GrimCoconut]

I disagree with the last notion. Dumervil proved he's very capable of playing that roll, and Suggs, like Ware, would probably be a beast as a 4-3 end.

I'm not fond of Dumervil playing LE as he'll have to play more of a run defense role.

[SecretAgentMan]

I'm not fond of Dumervil playing LE as he'll have to play more of a run defense role.

Then put Suggs there for all I care. Doom made a pro bowl doing that. Suggs is better vs the run anyway

[ravensdan]

Yeah we don't have a Geno Atkins, but Jernigan can play 3T and so can Canty.

We spend so much time in nickel it hardly matters tbh.

Most teams do. I think it's less than 40% of the snaps in base league wide. If like to see some numbers on that to be honest.

[T3hRaven]

Then put Suggs there for all I care. Doom made a pro bowl doing that. Suggs is better vs the run anyway

 

Yeah Dumervil would probably be better on the weak side.

[RavensDE]

One of the best things about the Raven's D is that we don't have a rigid 3-4 or 4-3 system.  We run all types of packages to suit our players and their abilities.  Will we run more 4-3 with our current set of players?  Maybe.  More likely our players will continue to learn/play in multiple fronts and we will set up game plans based on our personnel sets and how we think would be best to attack a team.  

 

We have remained a more 3-4 team over the past years but Oz has brought it up many times that we aren't a 3-4 or 4-3 team.  Labels make it easier to get a snapshot of the team but in the end we will run multiple sets.  We run a 54 sometimes, 4-3, 3-4, nickel, 3-3-5 nickel, dime I mean we run any package you can think of.  It is a big reason we value versatility so highly and when we start moving guys into non-traditional roles (Like back when we had AD playing safety) we gain small strategic advantages.  

 

Long story short with our team, the difference between 3-4 and 4-3 is primarily academic.

[acranfor]

One of the best things about the Raven's D is that we don't have a rigid 3-4 or 4-3 system.  We run all types of packages to suit our players and their abilities.  Will we run more 4-3 with our current set of players?  Maybe.  More likely our players will continue to learn/play in multiple fronts and we will set up game plans based on our personnel sets and how we think would be best to attack a team.  

 

We have remained a more 3-4 team over the past years but Oz has brought it up many times that we aren't a 3-4 or 4-3 team.  Labels make it easier to get a snapshot of the team but in the end we will run multiple sets.  We run a 54 sometimes, 4-3, 3-4, nickel, 3-3-5 nickel, dime I mean we run any package you can think of.  It is a big reason we value versatility so highly and when we start moving guys into non-traditional roles (Like back when we had AD playing safety) we gain small strategic advantages.  

 

Long story short with our team, the difference between 3-4 and 4-3 is primarily academic.

Agreed. We value players along the line that can play any position. The future looks bright with a front 7 pool of players including:

 

Dumervil, Upshaw, McPhee, Urban, KLM, Jernigan, WIlliams, Ngata, Sugg, Brown, Mosley (Canty and Smith for this year)

 

We need to find the future at RUSH LB. Would have been great if Kindle would have worked out, but you know how that went...

[RavensDE]

Agreed. We value players along the line that can play any position. The future looks bright with a front 7 pool of players including:

 

Dumervil, Upshaw, McPhee, Urban, KLM, Jernigan, WIlliams, Ngata, Sugg, Brown, Mosley (Canty and Smith for this year)

 

We need to find the future at RUSH LB. Would have been great if Kindle would have worked out, but you know how that went...

 

Kindle...

[Inqui]

 

[ravensnick]

I think Williams will be a part of our DL long term as well. He definitely has the potential from what we've seen.

I agree that I think it's easier to find 4-3 players because right now the 3-4 is trendy. I do agree that the days of the 3-4 being the preferred base are limited however.

More of the NFL runs a 4-3. A lot more. 

[GrimCoconut]

More of the NFL runs a 4-3. A lot more. 

Cowboys, Raiders, Vikings, Bears, Broncos, Panthers, Bengals, Jaguars, Rams, Lions, Patriots, Bills, Buccaneers, Seahawks, Dolphins, Giants. That's the list I found when I did a quick search of teams that use the 4-3. That's 16 teams. That's half the NFL since there are 32 teams. That would discredit your comment. Not sure if you have facts to back up your comment, but go ahead. I could be wrong.

[Inqui]

Cowboys, Raiders, Vikings, Bears, Broncos, Panthers, Bengals, Jaguars, Rams, Lions, Patriots, Bills, Buccaneers, Seahawks, Dolphins, Giants. That's the list I found when I did a quick search of teams that use the 4-3. That's 16 teams. That's half the NFL since there are 32 teams. That would discredit your comment. Not sure if you have facts to back up your comment, but go ahead. I could be wrong.

I counted 17 a couple of weeks ago, but couldn't tell you the extra team off the top of my head. But from what I've read, the 3-4 is trending upwards because of how easy it is to disguise defences, and the Patriots, Hawks, Raiders and Bills still use a fair bit of 3-4.

 

ED: I think the Falcons were the extra team.