YashaYahu1

DE'S/LB'S

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PERNELL MCPHEE/ JOHN SIMON/ courtney Upshaw/Deangelo Tyson/ LEWIS-MOORE  KAPRONE

 

Where do they fit in? McPhee been there awahile now first at De now at LB i think he showd move back to DE and compete with CANTY.  Upshaw as well i think he can compete with canty at DE..We have depth and youth but the reality is Suggs is not coming off the field so when and where do they fit? A we just training them just to have another team give them an opportunity while we watch them have success for another team?

Edited by YashaYahu1
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Actually I think most of those players will be in rotation. Hopefully John Simon shows improvement so he can get some playing time too. I'm a big fan. He's a hard worker with a great motor. I think he'll be a great player for Baltimore some day.

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Are you going to make a thread like this for every positional group?

Where they fit will depend on what base defense the Ravens run. Upshaw is the starter at OLB in the 3-4 or starting DE in the 4-3. Tyson will be a solid role player in the 3-4 as a DE, or a DT in the 4-3. I think you'll see KPLM rotated in at DE in either defense to help prepare for a defense without Canty and Ngata. Simon will likely have to earn his role and position on the team as a special teams player

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Where they fit will depend on what base defense the Ravens run. Upshaw is the starter at OLB in the 3-4 or starting DE in the 4-3.

 

yeah but you are leaving out dumerville...he is the starting olb not Upshaw...so that has taken alot of snaps away from Upshaw. So if he is barley getting on the field that mean even less snaps for the others..espesially  McPhee who i really like.

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I'm hoping Lewis Moore and Jernigan show up big this year in the snaps they are given.

 

This is an important phase in our defense and maintaining it as the strength of our team. I love CJ mosley and the only worry I have is his durability. As a football player he is awesome. Don't compare him to rolando mclain (like some steeler fans are doing) who never had mosleys instincts in college. He was merely a thumper because of his excellent size. Mosely is  a superior player

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yeah but you are leaving out dumerville...he is the starting olb not Upshaw...so that has taken alot of snaps away from Upshaw. So if he is barley getting on the field that mean even less snaps for the others..espesially  McPhee who i really like.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Upshaw is the starter and played about an equal number of snaps as Dumervil. Upshaw is a far superior run defender than Elvis (who was the fourth worst run defender in Denver. That meant there were defensive backs who were better run stoppers than him.) So, Upshaw is the starter to handle the run and Dumervil acts as the pass rusher

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thats whats killing me...why havn't anyone commented on how he looks? That's something that needs to be reports as much has it was how much weight  Ray rice lost...I want to know if Upshaw looks slimmer ??

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thats whats killing me...why havn't anyone commented on how he looks? That's something that needs to be reports as much has it was how much weight  Ray rice lost...I want to know if Upshaw looks slimmer ??

 

Sometimes a report of nothing is a good thing.

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PERNELL MCPHEE/ JOHN SIMON/ courtney Upshaw/Deangelo Tyson/ LEWIS-MOORE  KAPRONE

 

Where do they fit in? McPhee been there awahile now first at De now at LB i think he showd move back to DE and compete with CANTY.  Upshaw as well i think he can compete with canty at DE..We have depth and youth but the reality is Suggs is not coming off the field so when and where do they fit? A we just training them just to have another team give them an opportunity while we watch them have success for another team?

Take Moore and Tyson out. They don't fit in the size/assignment of the others. Simon/McPhee/Upshaw are all 3-4 OLBs, 4-3 DEs. Tyson/Moore are 3-4 DEs/4-3 DT, they couldn't play OLB for their life.

Edited by ravensnick
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thats whats killing me...why havn't anyone commented on how he looks? That's something that needs to be reports as much has it was how much weight  Ray rice lost...I want to know if Upshaw looks slimmer ??

He was at the M&T draft party.  I stood right next to him.  He looked slim off the hoof.  certainly didnt look out of shape.  

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I think the pool of players is as follows (3-4 base):

 

OLB - Suggs & Upshaw Starters. Elvis & Mcphee as pass rushing rotation. Simon probably will not see the field much.

 

DE -  Canty will probably begin the season as the starter. I am predicting KLM to take his spot by end of season. Rotation of Tyson and possibly Urban. You may also see Jernigan in at DE in larger packages on early downs.

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I agree that McPhee should move back primarily to DL to compete with Canty. He seems to have a bigger impact disrupting in tighter spaces as opposed to open space like an OLB. He has been productive, in his limited snaps going back to his rookie season, at getting after the QB so why worry about dropping back in coverage when we should be conditioning him to focus on his pass rush. McPhee is younger and has more upside than Canty, he should be motivated in his contract year too!!

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McPhee should put on another 10 pounds or so and become a full time DE. He could be Anthony Weaver like in terms of their playing style / size. He lacks the speed, agility, quickness to be an effective pass rushing LB. Unless he loses another 20 pounds or so.

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McPhee should put on another 10 pounds or so and become a full time DE. He could be Anthony Weaver like in terms of their playing style / size. He lacks the speed, agility, quickness to be an effective pass rushing LB. Unless he loses another 20 pounds or so.

See his 2012 season where he tried that and his production dropped.

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McPhee won't be moving back to DE.  He's sitting at 270ish right now.  Putting on weight only puts him at 280, nowhere near big enough to survive in the 3-4.  The reason he dropped weight in the first place is because his knees couldn't handle the constant beating in the trenches.  He'll stay at OLB in the 3-4 and rotate in on the DL in nickel situations.  The move to OLB was necessary to preserve his health.

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See his 2012 season where he tried that and his production dropped.

 

What was his weight in 2012?

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Roughly 285-295. 

 

Well that's a pretty big gap if you go by guessing. He could have also been anywhere from 280-300 lbs. ;)

His listed weight is 280 right now and he didn't play all that well last season in hybrid DE/LB role either. He doesn't have the quickness to be an effective blitzing LB so I see him more of an every down lineman if he gains another 10-20 pounds.

Edited by Bullrush
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Well that's a pretty big gap if you go by guessing. He could have also been anywhere from 280-300 lbs. ;)

His listed weight is 280 right now and he didn't play all that well last season in hybrid DE/LB role either. He doesn't have the quickness to be an effective blitzing LB so I see him more of an every down lineman if he gains another 10-20 pounds.

 

Again... His performance severely dropped when he added weight... Not to mention his knees can't handle it.

Edited by The Raven
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The Ravens have really strong talent and depth on the front 7. Its gonna be fun watching these young guys compete this year. I could really see Cody and Canty cut this year, maybe not Canty but definitely Cody.

In a perfect world it'd say Timmy and Tyson rotates DT/3tech Ngata and Williams at NT with Canty and Lewis-Moore at the DE/5tech. Now obviously it's not a perfect world and these guys will play up and down the dline which is even better. I think Mcphee needs to go back with his hand in the dirt. He needs to carve out his role amongst this group here. I don't think he can live outside.

With the OLBs i think the wildcard is Hamilton. He came in two years ago as a pass rusher only, but started to develop into amore complete player. He started getting better against the run but his development was cut short in the presesaon. I think Hamilton and Simon could be a really good pair in a few years. I really like our young talent at the LB positions. Hamilton, Simon, Upshaw, Mosley, and Brown. All though guys have a good combination of toughness and speed.

This defense is gonna be young fast and physical.

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Again... His performance severely dropped when he added weight... Not to mention his knees can't handle it.

 

Why do you keep going back to the weight when you don't even know what his weight was?

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The Ravens have really strong talent and depth on the front 7. Its gonna be fun watching these young guys compete this year. I could really see Cody and Canty cut this year, maybe not Canty but definitely Cody.

In a perfect world it'd say Timmy and Tyson rotates DT/3tech Ngata and Williams at NT with Canty and Lewis-Moore at the DE/5tech. Now obviously it's not a perfect world and these guys will play up and down the dline which is even better. I think Mcphee needs to go back with his hand in the dirt. He needs to carve out his role amongst this group here. I don't think he can live outside.

With the OLBs i think the wildcard is Hamilton. He came in two years ago as a pass rusher only, but started to develop into amore complete player. He started getting better against the run but his development was cut short in the presesaon. I think Hamilton and Simon could be a really good pair in a few years. I really like our young talent at the LB positions. Hamilton, Simon, Upshaw, Mosley, and Brown. All though guys have a good combination of toughness and speed.

This defense is gonna be young fast and physical.

 

I'm really curious to see what happens with Hamilton this year.  If it wasn't for his injury, I believe he would have made the 53 man roster.  He looked great rushing the passer in the preseason last year.  I know he made one terrible play where he completely overran the ball carrier, but otherwise, he looked very good.  I wouldn't be surprised if he puts up a big fight again this year.  The tricky part is the fact that there are so many guys in front of him.

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Why do you keep going back to the weight when you don't even know what his weight was?

 

When the article came out about the McPhee shift to OLB, it was stated his weight was 285 when he was on the DL.  To move to OLB, he dropped into the 270 range.  Either way you cut it, 285 isn't big enough to survive in the trenches consistently unless you have supreme length like Watt or Keisel.

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Why do you keep going back to the weight when you don't even know what his weight was?

 

Because it's well documented that he gained roughly ten pounds after his rookie year in order to play better in the trenches. It backfired though and his performance declined. That's why the coaches then had him drop even more weight to play OLB. 

 

I don't know exactly what his weight was because not many websites list a player's exact playing weight for the 2012 season. Duh. But I do know he came into the league in the 275-280 range, and a simple math equation tells me he bulked up to 285-290. 

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When the article came out about the McPhee shift to OLB, it was stated his weight was 285 when he was on the DL.  To move to OLB, he dropped into the 270 range.  Either way you cut it, 285 isn't big enough to survive in the trenches consistently unless you have supreme length like Watt or Keisel.

 

I think it has more to do with strength and overall athleticism than length. Justin Smith plays at an average 6'3" and 285 pounds. 

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I think it has more to do with strength and overall athleticism than length. Justin Smith plays at an average 6'3" and 285 pounds. 

 

Yeah there are definitely some outliers like Justin Smith.  Smith is so explosive, even at his age.  McPhee is explosive, but not enough to consistently survive.

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When the article came out about the McPhee shift to OLB, it was stated his weight was 285 when he was on the DL.  To move to OLB, he dropped into the 270 range.  Either way you cut it, 285 isn't big enough to survive in the trenches consistently unless you have supreme length like Watt or Keisel.

 

I'd like him to bulk up to 300 pounds and become an every down lineman. He has that strength/size to be effective as a run stopper and add some pass rush. I really don't see him as an effective pass rushing LB, he'd have to go all the way down do 260-270 for that to happen. He just looks more natural as a big guy to me.

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I'd like him to bulk up to 300 pounds and become an every down lineman. He has that strength/size to be effective as a run stopper and add some pass rush. I really don't see him as an effective pass rushing LB, he'd have to go all the way down do 260-270 for that to happen. He just looks more natural as a big guy to me.

 

He can't.  His knees can't handle that weight.  That's the whole reason he was moved in the first place.  I don't think you realize how difficult it would be to add 30 lbs. to his frame in a healthy manner in such a short amount of time.  He's in the 270 range now.

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I'd like him to bulk up to 300 pounds and become an every down lineman. He has that strength/size to be effective as a run stopper and add some pass rush. I really don't see him as an effective pass rushing LB, he'd have to go all the way down do 260-270 for that to happen. He just looks more natural as a big guy to me.

 

So you'd like him to play at 300 when he already showed that he struggled at 285? What's your logic? If a man struggles at 285, what makes you think he'll thrive at 300?

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Because it's well documented that he gained roughly ten pounds after his rookie year in order to play better in the trenches. It backfired though and his performance declined. That's why the coaches then had him drop even more weight to play OLB. 

 

I don't know exactly what his weight was because not many websites list a player's exact playing weight for the 2012 season. Duh. But I do know he came into the league in the 275-280 range, and a simple math equation tells me he bulked up to 285-290. 

 

So what was the issue last year when he dropped all the weight he added in 2012? You make it seem pretty simple with basic statements like "his numbers dropped in 2013 because he gained 10 pounds" when that probably had very little to do with his numbers dropping. He played a different position, he had a different role. He was 280 as a rookie when he put up 6 sacks as a situational pass rusher. He was 290 in 2012 when he played full time DE, his numbers dropped because his main job was to play on 1st/2nd down and not rest the first 2 downs and then come in on 3rd and long to rush the passer. And in 2013 according to the website he (which he basically confirmed before the season began) he was listed at 280. Yet his numbers didn't improve even though he was a situational pass rusher. So why keep going back to this weight issue? How did losing all that extra weight work out for him last season? You act like his sack numbers are tied to his weight.

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So what was the issue last year when he dropped all the weight he added in 2012? You make it seem pretty simple with basic statements like "his numbers dropped in 2013 because he gained 10 pounds" when that probably had very little to do with his numbers dropping. He played a different position, he had a different role. He was 280 as a rookie when he put up 6 sacks as a situational pass rusher. He was 290 in 2012 when he played full time DE, his numbers dropped because his main job was to play on 1st/2nd down and not rest the first 2 downs and then come in on 3rd and long to rush the passer. And in 2013 according to the website he (which he basically confirmed before the season began) he was listed at 280. Yet his numbers didn't improve even though he was a situational pass rusher. So why keep going back to this weight issue? How did losing all that extra weight work out for him last season? You act like his sack numbers are tied to his weight.

 

You're still missing the point.  His knees are the reason he's at OLB, which is tied to his weight.  At additional weight, there was more pressure on his knees.  He lost explosiveness at his added weight and consistently got beaten up in the trenches.  He wasn't going to survive on the DL full time at 280 lbs, what he was his rookie year.  Thus, they moved him to OLB for the base D only.  He'll still play DL, but only in nickel situations.  His knees can't handle the trenches at an added weight suitable for a full time role there.

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I'm really curious to see what happens with Hamilton this year.  If it wasn't for his injury, I believe he would have made the 53 man roster.  He looked great rushing the passer in the preseason last year.  I know he made one terrible play where he completely overran the ball carrier, but otherwise, he looked very good.  I wouldn't be surprised if he puts up a big fight again this year.  The tricky part is the fact that there are so many guys in front of him.

Right that's the good thing and the bad thing at the same time. These guys will have to fight to get on the field. I agree with you that Hamilton makes the 53 last year if not for the injury. Doom said he plans on being more vocal and more of a leader this year. If I'm Hamilton I'm always in the ear of Doom. Just finding little tips on how to improve his rush.

I thought we really got in trouble last year during the 2nd half because we didn't have a 3rd pass rusher to help out Sizz and Doom. It'll be interesting to see what young guy steps up to fill that role.

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He can't.  His knees can't handle that weight.  That's the whole reason he was moved in the first place.  I don't think you realize how difficult it would be to add 30 lbs. to his frame in a healthy manner in such a short amount of time.  He's in the 270 range now.

 

Well 30 pounds is a little more than I asked for. He's listed at 280, ideally I'd like him to be in the 290-300 range (like 2012) and be a full time DE. If his knee can't handle that I don't see him being here much longer. With that knee I don't see him becoming a pass rushing threat even at 260. He can't possibly have the explosiveness/agility to beat O-Linemen around the edge with that knee.

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So what was the issue last year when he dropped all the weight he added in 2012? You make it seem pretty simple with basic statements like "his numbers dropped in 2013 because he gained 10 pounds" when that probably had very little to do with his numbers dropping. He played a different position, he had a different role. He was 280 as a rookie when he put up 6 sacks as a situational pass rusher. He was 290 in 2012 when he played full time DE, his numbers dropped because his main job was to play on 1st/2nd down and not rest the first 2 downs and then come in on 3rd and long to rush the passer. And in 2013 according to the website he (which he basically confirmed before the season began) he was listed at 280. Yet his numbers didn't improve even though he was a situational pass rusher. So why keep going back to this weight issue? How did losing all that extra weight work out for him last season? You act like his sack numbers are tied to his weight.

 

Newsflash: A player's weight has a significant influence on his performance and to say otherwise is ignorant. Maybe I act like his sack numbers are tied to his weight because they are. Another example: Suggs in 09. Played overweight and got only four sacks.

 

When he played full time DE, his main job was not to play on 1st and 2nd down. Cody, Ngata, and Jones were the starters that year. So, that's completely false. Most of his snaps were on third down.

 

His numbers went down because, even though he was listed as an OLB, he played inside a lot on third down to keep Suggs and Dumervil outside. This time, he struggled because he didn't have the size. Also, he lacks the explosion to play OLB.

 

The fact is McPhee's in the wrong defense. Put him as a LE or DT in a 4-3 and he'd be dominant. Put McPhee in Seattle and he'd be phenomenal.

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Right that's the good thing and the bad thing at the same time. These guys will have to fight to get on the field. I agree with you that Hamilton makes the 53 last year if not for the injury. Doom said he plans on being more vocal and more of a leader this year. If I'm Hamilton I'm always in the ear of Doom. Just finding little tips on how to improve his rush.

I thought we really got in trouble last year during the 2nd half because we didn't have a 3rd pass rusher to help out Sizz and Doom. It'll be interesting to see what young guy steps up to fill that role.

 

For sure.  I really liked what he offered and I think he'd do well as a situational pass rusher.  Honestly, if Hamilton gets a spot, I think it could be at the expense of McPhee, which I'll go into in the post below.

 

Well 30 pounds is a little more than I asked for. He's listed at 280, ideally I'd like him to be in the 290-300 range (like 2012) and be a full time DE. If his knee can't handle that I don't see him being here much longer. With that knee I don't see him becoming a pass rushing threat even at 260. He can't possibly have the explosiveness/agility to beat O-Linemen around the edge with that knee.

 

The site has been known to not update weights and such.  Last I heard, he was in the 270-275 range and that was a few months ago.  I really do think he could end up on the chopping block though.  Right now, I think he's safe, but if someone like Hamilton as mentioned above continues doing well, I really wouldn't be surprised if he was cut.  OLB certainly isn't his natural position and I don't think he moves well enough in space, but injuries necessitated the move.  The biggest issue is that McPhee is your prototypical 4-3 player.  He's kind of an odd fit here.

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Newsflash: A player's weight has a significant influence on his performance and to say otherwise is ignorant. Maybe I act like his sack numbers are tied to his weight because they are. Another example: Suggs in 09. Played overweight and got only four sacks.

 

When he played full time DE, his main job was not to play on 1st and 2nd down. Cody, Ngata, and Jones were the starters that year. So, that's completely false. Most of his snaps were on third down.

 

His numbers went down because, even though he was listed as an OLB, he played inside a lot on third down to keep Suggs and Dumervil outside. This time, he struggled because he didn't have the size. Also, he lacks the explosion to play OLB.

 

The fact is McPhee's in the wrong defense. Put him as a LE or DT in a 4-3 and he'd be dominant. Put McPhee in Seattle and he'd be phenomenal.

 

What are you even talking about? He opened the season as a starter. He was in the starting lineup as a defensive end before they ruled him out the following weeks in the 2nd half of the season because of the knee/thigh issues he dealt with.

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