Is Flacco FINALLY gaining respect from the media? This is weird

[jazz1988]

Flacco has had a good career, but if we had Newton, Wilson, or Kap in 2013 we probably would have won 1-2 more games. Neg me all you want but anybody who says otherwise is drinking too much purple koolaid.

 

Right like they would had over came the poor play calling , the offensive line problems,and no run game so much better than Joe Flacco.

[display name]

Right like they would had over came the poor play calling , the offensive line problems,and no run game so much better than Joe Flacco.

Their statistics probably wouldn't have quite been as good as they were in 2013 with their respective teams, but they would have taken care of the football better than Flacco. They also wouldn't have taken as many sacks, because they can run pretty well on their own. Flacco himself is fairly mobile, especially for his size, but nothing like Newton or Kap.

[jazz1988]

Their statistics probably wouldn't have quite been as good as they were in 2013 with their respective teams, but they would have taken care of the football better than Flacco. They also wouldn't have taken as many sacks, because they can run pretty well on their own. Flacco himself is fairly mobile, especially for his size, but nothing like Newton or Kap.

I doubt it especially with the offensive coordinators we been having lately. They probably be running for their life for most of the season in our offense. Our offensive line was terrible last year  and we all know a comfortable quarterback is  quarterback that's protected well.   Our offensive scheme we been running for  quite some time  doesn't cater to mobile quarterbacks but of of course Newton or Kap could probably  take less sacks but I don't see them preforming better than Joe Flacco at all

[jazz1988]

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but what the Baltimore Ravens have done over the last 6 seasons is a reflection of the Baltimore Ravens team. Flacco has certainly played a large role in those accomplishments, but he should not be held responsible for what the team has done together.

Flacco has had a good amount of talent around him. Certainly not this season, when our offense looked like a throwback to the Billick era, but through his career. The best example of the point I am trying to make is Anquan Boldin.

Boldin was traded to the Ravens in 2010 after posting 1,000 yard seasons in 2008 and 2009. If not for injuries in 2004 and 2007 that caused him to miss 4 and 6 games, respectively, Boldin would almost certainly have posted 1,000 yard seasons in all the 7 years of his career with the Arizona Cardinals. He even managed a 1,000 yard season in 2008 despite playing in only 12 games after suffering yet another injury. Having Larry Fitzgerald lining with Boldin certainly helped a lot, but this is still evidence of his talent.

During Boldin's 3 seasons with the Ravens he stayed relatively healthy (he never missed more than 2 games). Yet his highest yardage total was 921 yards. After leaving the Ravens Boldin posted another 1,000 yard season. So what does that tell you? It should show that the QBs Boldin had were able to get the ball to him better than Flacco. Flacco was a very good quarterback up until last season. He had Boldin with him for 3 seasons, but could not get him to 1,000 yards, something that many other players, including Colin Kaepernick, were able to do last season.

Flacco also had, at various points in his 6 year career: one of the best ground attacks in the game, a perennial veteran 1,000 yard receiver (Derrick Mason-posted 1,000 yards receiving for Flacco's first 2 seasons, continued his solid play in 2010), a great group of TEs, mostly solid backup QBs, and one of the best defenses in the game. All of that collapsed last season, and Flacco fell with it. But Flacco's solid play and that support carried us to 5 straight playoff appearances culminating in a SB victory.

All together Matt Ryan probably has had more talent around him than Flacco, and that is reflected by his superior statistics. But Flacco is not elite, and probably never will be. His best season came in 2010, and I wouldn't expect him to ever be much better than that. We surrounded Flacco with talent that he needed to take advantage of, and for the most part he did that. But the mark of a great QB is someone who does not fall flat on his face when the talent disappears, especially after he has been given a $120 million contract. Flacco didn't live up to that challenge. The talent around Matt Ryan regressed slightly in 2013 as well. The running game, which for 5 seasons had been carried by Michael Turner, was not a major factor last season. Ryan regressed a bit as well, yet he was still able to turn Michael Jenkins (EDIT: I meant Harry Douglas) into a 1,000 yard receiver. Now, we could do all sorts of things for Flacco. We could bring back Boldin, patch up the O-line to a solid state, put the 2011 Rice back in the lineup. But do you ever think that Flacco could turn Michael Jenkins [Douglas] into a 1,000 yard receiver when he couldn't even do that with Anquan Boldin for 3 seasons? And don't tell me that Michael Jenkins [Douglas] is better than Boldin.

So there you go. Flacco is a good quarterback, but the poor play last season was primarily his fault. There is some blame to be spread around, but Flacco needs to do better. He is being given another chance in 2014, and I think this time he will live up to it.

 

One of the main reason why Anquan Boldin didn't reach 1,000 receiving yards as   a Ravens was because we were using a receiver whom had 4.60 40 time like he had 4.4  40 time. We never used Boldin  consistently  to his strength

during his time here  when Cam Cameron was our offensive coordinator. Anquan Boldin was never the  type of receiver built for the vertical scheme we been running for the past 6 years. 

 

Boldin didn't light it up during our playoff run/super bowl  because he was on fire alone but it was because Jim Caldwell unlike Cam Cameron knew Boldin could be effective doing slants, crossing routes, and overall playing the slot alot more.  Boldin has always been known as a receiver that can take advantage of the middle  of the field in the slot or overall a better receiver in a west coast offense.  Guys like Derrick Mason and Torrey Smith were able to  reach 1,000 receiving yards because they  are better out side receivers than Anquan Boldin.

 

The 49ers run something similar to a west coast offense which mean  more short to quicker routes being run by receivers and etc in which fit's Boldin strength.

[hawkprey]

One of the main reason why Anquan Boldin didn't reach 1,000 receiving yards as   a Ravens was because we were using a receiver whom had 4.60 40 time like he had 4.4  40 time. We never used Boldin  consistently  to his strength

during his time here  when Cam Cameron was our offensive coordinator. Anquan Boldin was never the  type of receiver built for the vertical scheme we been running for the past 6 years. 

 

Boldin didn't light it up during our playoff run/super bowl  because he was on fire alone but it was because Jim Caldwell unlike Cam Cameron knew Boldin could be effective doing slants, crossing routes, and overall playing the slot alot more.  Boldin has always been known as a receiver that can take advantage of the middle  of the field in the slot or overall a better receiver in a west coast offense.  Guys like Derrick Mason and Torrey Smith were able to  reach 1,000 receiving yards because they  are better out side receivers than Anquan Boldin.

 

The 49ers run something similar to a west coast offense which mean  more short to quicker routes being run by receivers and etc in which fit's Boldin strength.

While I agree that Boldin's strength isn't deep routes, and we weren't using him properly, if you remember how the playoff run started: In the first half vs Indy, the offense was stagnant because we used too many short routes that their DBs sat on. In the second half, we opened the deep passing game - which all went to Boldin.

 

That should give you an idea of how poorly our offense was run. We couldn't use Boldin to his strength because we were making the routes/playcalling too obvious. When we changed things up and used our QBs strength of the deep ball, we had massive production to a receiver who himself wasn't being used right. 

 

Really, the writing was on the wall for Caldwell's playcalling but we couldn't see it. He wasn't experienced enough at running an offense and as a result, defenses were two steps ahead of him. 

[flynismo]

Can't help but notice a certain other QB wasn't in consideration:

 

BEST AND WORST PICKS OF THE 2000s

 

2008 Best: Joe Flacco or Aqib Talib

Flacco: In six years, the Ravens' quarterback hasn't missed a start and has a Super Bowl MVP as a No. 18 pick.
Talib: The Tampa Bay Buccaneers got one of the NFL's top cornerbacks at No. 20, and he just signed a $57 million contract with the Broncos.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000362408/article/best-and-worst-firstround-nfl-draft-picks-of-the-2000s

[flynismo]

Flacco has had a good career, but if we had Newton, Wilson, or Kap in 2013 we probably would have won 1-2 more games. Neg me all you want but anybody who says otherwise is drinking too much purple koolaid.

....or they just have common sense

[ravensdfan]

Can't help but notice a certain other QB wasn't in consideration:

 

BEST AND WORST PICKS OF THE 2000s

 

2008 Best: Joe Flacco or Aqib Talib

Flacco: In six years, the Ravens' quarterback hasn't missed a start and has a Super Bowl MVP as a No. 18 pick.

Talib: The Tampa Bay Buccaneers got one of the NFL's top cornerbacks at No. 20, and he just signed a $57 million contract with the Broncos.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000362408/article/best-and-worst-firstround-nfl-draft-picks-of-the-2000s

 

 

So true and somehow satisfying LOL

 

On a side note: Two other Ravens make the list for the best - and none for the worst. Not too bad.

[fusuymada]

In what seemed as a surprise to me, not because of talent but because of his perceived ability, Flacco was listed in an Nfl.com article on top draft picks of the 2000 decade as the best pick in 2008. (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000362408/article/best-and-worst-firstround-nfl-draft-picks-of-the-2000s). In beating out long time nemesis Matt Ryan, who was picked 3rd overall, Flacco appears to finally be getting credit for his accomplishments.

Many forget that the 2012 Super Bowl season was marked with injuries to Suggs, Ngata, Lewis and Reed. Though the defense typically is cited as the reason for Ravens success, the defense in the Super Bowl year of 2012 was rated 12th against the run, 15th against the pass and 15h overall. Hardly a dominant defense. Flacco, on the other hand, had a good year followed by a tremendous post-season.

Though Flacco seems to be a lightning rod for criticism, even for local talk show hosts, it's nice to see that some people are recognizing his contributions and though busts like Vernon Gholston and Gosder Cherilus were chosen before him, Flacco has shown just how good Ozzie's draft skills truly are.

[PolishRifle]

Their statistics probably wouldn't have quite been as good as they were in 2013 with their respective teams, but they would have taken care of the football better than Flacco. They also wouldn't have taken as many sacks, because they can run pretty well on their own. Flacco himself is fairly mobile, especially for his size, but nothing like Newton or Kap.

 

Maybe, but Cam's system isn't built to gain yards by running the ball as the QB. Eventually those guys would have to stand in the pocket and look downfield, just like Joe did. Dunno, if Kaep or Newton would be as good at throwing it deep and to the outside as Flacco. 

Once again, the QB comparison doesn't really work, because they don't play in a vacuum. Different system, different coaches and different divisions obviously have a much bigger impact on statistics and win/loss ratio, than "this guy can run the ball better than that guy".

 

Also, I still don't like Kaep at all as a QB. I'm warming up to Newton, though. Still, not sure, if they'll ever be as good as Joe. I know it's unthinkable, that someone's worse than Flacco. Clearly anyone could win on our always "loaded" team (not a joke about our recent offseason issues, btw). There is no way Joe would have the same, if not greater success on the 49ers, who are totally devoid of talent. *winkwink*

[PerpetuallyBored74]

With the Air Coryell, you need 2 legit deep threat WRs because the idea is to force defenses to either double cover one or both of them and leave at least one of your underneath receivers in single coverage or double cover your underneath guys leaving at least one deep threat guy in single coverage, with your QB then reading who is going to be in single coverage and throwing the ball to them with the expectation that they will be open. The concept is pretty simple, but it only works if you have 2 deep threats to force 3 or 4 defenders to cover both.

 

More specifically, if the defense drops 7 into coverage doubling both your deep threats then that's 4 defenders (usually 2 CBs & 2 safeties) on only 2 WRs, leaving their remaining 3 defenders to have to cover your other 2 or 3 receivers (typically a TE, pass catching RB, with slot WR optional) so at least 2 underneath guys should only be singled giving you a great chance that one will be open. If they only drop 6 into coverage (rushing 5) then that only leaves 2 defenders to cover your 2 or 3 underneath guys--one of your guys could be completely uncovered! But this only happens when you have 2 deep threats drawing 4 defenders downfield with them.

 

Suppose though that the defense decides to gamble and leave one or both of your deep threats in single coverage? This is when your QB is supposed to read this and throw to the deep threat because your deep threat is supposed to beat single coverage almost every time. This is also where play action comes into play--the QB is supposed to trick at least 1 safety into biting on the fake handoff which will leave 1 deep threat WR in single coverage, which in the Air Coryell means he should be open; even better if both safeties bite, now you double your chances of one deep threat WR being open. Yet last year, PFF has Flacco nearly dead last in running the play action even though that's an integral part of the Air Coryell (What was Caldwell thinking?!)

 

What happens if you only have one deep threat? If he's doubled when the defense drops 7 into coverage, that still leaves FIVE defenders to cover your 3 or 4 underneath guys. So, you lose the advantage of having even numbers or better underneath. If the defense has an elite CB who can cover your one deep threat, then they can drop 6 into coverage underneath and DOUBLE all 3 of your underneath guys if you keep the 4th behind to provide additional pass protection (like we often did with Dickson/Pitta and Vontae even though pass protection was not their strengths)

 

So, what does all this have to do with the Ravens? Between 2011 and 2013 the Ravens have almost always only had 1 deep threat WR (Torrey Smith) because the other guys were either hurt (Lee Evans, Deonte Thompson, Jacoby Jones, etc.) or not used for whatever reason (David Reed, Jacoby Jones, Deonte Thompson, etc.) One of the key changes Caldwell made in the 2012 playoff run was to move Boldin (who with his 4.7 40 speed has never been a deep threat) into the slot where he belongs and put Jacoby as the other deep threat with Torrey (under Cam, Jacoby was used sparingly). And that was one of the reasons why the offense suddenly took off--because we finally had the 2 deep threats along with the underneath guys (Pitta, Boldin, Rice) that the Air Coryell absolutely requires.

 

Then you factor in the hole we've normally had at LG since 2011 when Grubbs got hurt/left along with Oher being another weak point no matter which side he was on and you see how we lacked the necessary personnel to properly run the AC.

 

tl:dr: Since 2011 we haven't had the pieces to do it right, so we've been doing it mostly wrong (exception being the 2012 playoffs).

 

And this is partly in response to all the Flacco bashers who think that Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Keapernick, Wilson, Newton, Luck, etc. would have done better--which would only be true if Brady, et al. had succeeded in getting Cam's Air Coryell replaced with something that could actually work well with the personnel we did have. Then yeah, they would have done better.

[PolishRifle]

And this is partly in response to all the Flacco bashers who think that Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Keapernick, Wilson, Newton, Luck, etc. would have done better--which would only be true if Brady, et al. had succeeded in getting Cam's Air Coryell replaced with something that could actually work well with the personnel we did have. Then yeah, they would have done better.

 

I can't deny that Peyton, Rodgers, Brees and Brady had better carreers than Joe, but a system can have a huge impact on someone's numbers. Brees, whom I still consider to be better than Flacco had only slightly better numbers under Cam, but with arguably superior personal around him.

 

All of this makes me curious/excited/cautiously optimistic about the playbook change. It can make such a huge difference for some QBs (see Drew Brees) to get into the right system. Joe has always been a QB that had great games and then followed it up with bad ones. We will get to see, if that is just who he is or if those great games is just his potential showing up, that got buried under Cam's playbook.

[Ravensfan23]

I can't deny that Peyton, Rodgers, Brees and Brady had better carreers than Joe, but a system can have a huge impact on someone's numbers. Brees, whom I still consider to be better than Flacco had only slightly better numbers under Cam, but with arguably superior personal around him.

 

All of this makes me curious/excited/cautiously optimistic about the playbook change. It can make such a huge difference for some QBs (see Drew Brees) to get into the right system. Joe has always been a QB that had great games and then followed it up with bad ones. We will get to see, if that is just who he is or if those great games is just his potential showing up, that got buried under Cam's playbook.

 

That's my vote. But I've beaten that horse into the ground for years, so now i'll just sit back and watch Flacco do his thing this year, then listen to all the people who don't like him say how he's now a "system QB" and that's the only reason for his success.

[redrum52]

Dameshek predicts Flacco goes off for 4 tds week one vs Bengals.

[BMORE21]

Honestly, we never really got to see Flacco's true potential till last year.. He did ok with that bad butt team we had

[redrum52]

I can't deny that Peyton, Rodgers, Brees and Brady had better carreers than Joe, but a system can have a huge impact on someone's numbers. Brees, whom I still consider to be better than Flacco had only slightly better numbers under Cam, but with arguably superior personal around him.

All of this makes me curious/excited/cautiously optimistic about the playbook change. It can make such a huge difference for some QBs (see Drew Brees) to get into the right system. Joe has always been a QB that had great games and then followed it up with bad ones. We will get to see, if that is just who he is or if those great games is just his potential showing up, that got buried under Cam's playbook.

If a corner played as inconsistently as Joe would everyone in the Flacco camp still support said corner? I'm a fan but at what point do we stop saying next season it all comes together? Ill give him a pass for last year some what, but if he doesn't perform will it be, he needs aanother year in the system?

[hawkprey]

Dameshek predicts Flacco goes off for 4 tds week one vs Bengals.

Yeah, Dameshek is strange. He also said the Ravens will probably win the AFC North (this after naming only 2 or 3 Ravens of 22 starters to his "All AFCN team".) I don't know how those two thoughts got trapped in the same head on the same day but I'll take it.

[hawkprey]

If a corner played as inconsistently as Joe would everyone in the Flacco camp still support said corner? I'm a fan but at what point do we stop saying next season it all comes together? Ill give him a pass for last year some what, but if he doesn't perform will it be, he needs aanother year in the system?

A lot of people here were dying for us to sign Brandon Flowers directly off a terrible season because "he was in the wrong scheme", so that's a direct example of people here supporting "said corner" because of extenuating circumstances.

 

If Joe flops this year on his own and not because the scheme/receivers/protection etc. were massive failures, we will all give him justified grief for that. But that's not going to happen.

[redrum52]

Yeah, Dameshek is strange. He also said the Ravens will probably win the AFC North (this after naming only 2 or 3 Ravens of 22 starters to his "All AFCN team".) I don't know how those two thoughts got trapped in the same head on the same day but I'll take it.

Realistically we have some talent in our division. We have some of the best at positions in the North. Haden is top 5, Thomas and Mack might be the best at their positions. Geno could be top 3 at DT and Ben could still be considered the best qb in our division. Wr AJ and Josh. The only places I think we could say we have a shot ( going off last year) are olb, RG,CB, MLB and kicker. At the same time we've gotten better and guys are healthy. Don't need the best players, just guys good at doing what they need to do.

[BSHU_Miami]

If a corner played as inconsistently as Joe would everyone in the Flacco camp still support said corner? I'm a fan but at what point do we stop saying next season it all comes together? Ill give him a pass for last year some what, but if he doesn't perform will it be, he needs aanother year in the system?

What makes you belive he wont preform, what exactly indicates that Joe wont lead us back to the postseason this year?

[redrum52]

What makes you belive he wont preform, what exactly indicates that Joe wont lead us back to the postseason this year?

I never said I didn't think he wouldn't. I actually think he has his best year... At the same time I've been saying this for a few years now.

Also, why is it he leads us to the promise land when we're successful but everyone else's fault when we fail?

[PolishRifle]

Also, why is it he leads us to the promise land when we're successful but everyone else's fault when we fail?

 

We all say that Ray Lewis led us to a SB in 2000, when he played on a loaded defense, so why can't we say that Flacco led us to a SB in 2012, when he played on a good offense?

[Mahatma_Sloth]

I never said I didn't think he wouldn't. I actually think he has his best year... At the same time I've been saying this for a few years now.

Also, why is it he leads us to the promise land when we're successful but everyone else's fault when we fail?

looked to me like he shouldered the blame in all the pre season interviews i have seen thus far

[flynismo]

Also, why is it he leads us to the promise land when we're successful but everyone else's fault when we fail?

if you agree that the running game was non-existent, the OL provided zero protection and the WR were mediocre at best, then you have your answer....it's simply the truth.

[redrum52]

if you agree that the running game was non-existent, the OL provided zero protection and the WR were mediocre at best, then you have your answer....it's simply the truth.

Never said they didn't. That's why I said he had a pass last year in an earlier post.

[redrum52]

We all say that Ray Lewis led us to a SB in 2000, when he played on a loaded defense, so why can't we say that Flacco led us to a SB in 2012, when he played on a good offense?

I didn't say that. I credited the defense and run game.

[Guest RBates]

True!  As much as he has improved, Joe is still fighting the stigma of being inconsistent.  Let's be real!  To me, even though he led us to a SB and was the MVP, people still don't believe in Joe or give him his props over other QB's because of his past inconsistencies.  When Joe is on...he is on!  And when he is off...he looks like complete garbage as a QB.  Who doesn't I guess!  But regardless of all of the "stats" that show Joe's broken this or that record since being in the league no one cares about that stuff!  They remember what they SEE from him throughout a season.  Hopefully!  Hopefully!  Hopefully this year he can turn that perception around and prove everyone wrong with an incredible season, playoff birth and another Super Bowl run and win!

 

Go Ravens!

 

#Mili

Mili Joe is a top 12 QB in the league and just to be honest i think that's as good as it gets.  Lets be real.  He has a great offensive coordinator now that somehow made Matt Schaub look good. Plenty of weapons to throw to and a decent running game.  No more excuses, now it's put up or sit down time. 

[Ravensfan23]

Mili Joe is a top 12 QB in the league and just to be honest i think that's as good as it gets.  Lets be real.  He has a great offensive coordinator now that somehow made Matt Schaub look good. Plenty of weapons to throw to and a decent running game.  No more excuses, now it's put up or sit down time. 

 

and what exactly does put up consist of?

[1/28/01]

and what exactly does put up consist of?

6k yards and 70 TDs, duh!!!

[SecretAgentMan]

6k yards and 70 TDs, duh!!!

Don't forget the 400 rushing yards