LB Courtney Upshaw

[BmoreBird22]

 

upshaw wasn't the best player, and I'm still adamant we could have got him In the third, and was only drafted because he went to Bama. To players easily better than him were Alshon Jeffrey and Cordy Glenn.

Okay, I'll admit I was very upset we passed on both Jeffrey and Glenn (I actually wanted Glenn when I saw he was available). With that said, there was no way we could get him in the third. As I said, seven DE/OLB's were taken in the first round ahead of Upshaw, and two or more (I had never heard of some of the DE's on the list, so I wasn't sure if they were the hybrid type and didn't include them) drafted behind him. He was not getting to us. That also doesn't factor in whether a team would pass up on a player they already drafted (such as the Jaguars drafting a punter) to draft Upshaw. He wouldn't be there in the third.

Now, would I rather have had Glenn or Jeffrey? Oh, absolutely. I was full in on offense, but I was happy we got Upshaw.

[BmoreBird22]

 

As I stated before, I was sure that someone could point out scouting reports stating he would be run stopper. I've seen most of them. However, I can also point out ones stating he would be a complete player that is able to stuff the run and rush the passer. I stated that you don't take a player that high UNLESS you believe they can make an impact in all phases of the game. The opinions may have varied as to who believed Upshaw could be that but the belief was without a doubt there because I used to read it everywhere leading up to that draft. It was one of the reasons why around that time he was thought to have been a top 15 player in that draft but fell due to weight, explosiveness, and height concerns.

Even though some were excited about Kruger, his position was still never set in stone. Upshaw was brought in to compete with Kruger and potentially take over that spot across from Suggs. That didn't happen but nobody knew that it wouldn't before he played a down for the Ravens.

You keep using the words can and could, so until the day he retires, there will always be a chance he can develop into a pass rusher. Nothing is set in stone yet. He is, after all, a second year player. Some players take time to develop into complete players. As I said before, Suggs was once just a pass rushing specialist, but now he's one of the most complete linebackers in the league, and this year, his run defending far exceeded his pass rush. 

We keep saying how he lacks explosiveness, he's big (didn't he play at like 270, 275?), and that he didn't have a full array of pass rush moves. At what point does any of that add up to him being a complete pass rusher from day one? He's spent time under Dumervil and Suggs, and given how technically sound he is, I'm sure he can develop a pass rush arsenal. The next step is losing weight. He works hard on the field, and I assume he does during the season. That just means he has to carry those habits into the offseason. That'll be something to work on. He has to lose some weight. Then, the last step would be to give him an opportunity to take over the full time role. He hasn't had that yet, but it looks like the chance is coming. I truly believe the front office wouldn't be contemplating releasing Suggs if they didn't believe Upshaw could do it.

I admit, I was disappointed Upshaw didn't get the full time role because I believe players learn the best when they learn on the job.

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

 

 

You keep using the words can and could, so until the day he retires, there will always be a chance he can develop into a pass rusher. Nothing is set in stone yet. He is, after all, a second year player. Some players take time to develop into complete players. As I said before, Suggs was once just a pass rushing specialist, but now he's one of the most complete linebackers in the league, and this year, his run defending far exceeded his pass rush. 

We keep saying how he lacks explosiveness, he's big (didn't he play at like 270, 275?), and that he didn't have a full array of pass rush moves. At what point does any of that add up to him being a complete pass rusher from day one? He's spent time under Dumervil and Suggs, and given how technically sound he is, I'm sure he can develop a pass rush arsenal. The next step is losing weight. He works hard on the field, and I assume he does during the season. That just means he has to carry those habits into the offseason. That'll be something to work on. He has to lose some weight. Then, the last step would be to give him an opportunity to take over the full time role. He hasn't had that yet, but it looks like the chance is coming. I truly believe the front office wouldn't be contemplating releasing Suggs if they didn't believe Upshaw could do it.

I admit, I was disappointed Upshaw didn't get the full time role because I believe players learn the best when they learn on the job.

 

 

And where did I say that there wasn't a chance? I've never said he couldn't develop into a better pass rusher. Also, who said that he was going to be a complete pass rusher from day one? The main point of this back and forth was because of this:

 

I think people forget why we brought him in. We didn't bring him in to be the next great pass rusher (Suggs tore his achilles after the draft and we had Kruger). We had just lost Jarrett Johnson and we had a void at an edge setting linebacker.

Courtney was brought in to be a linebacker that could set the edge, do the dirty work, and then keep the pass rushers fresh. The people who are expecting him to be a great pass rusher, or who did, are off base, and that's why you think he's a bust. 

 

 

While the Ravens may have be impressed by his run-stopping ability, they drafted Upshaw that high because they believed he was the complete package. He obviously has stuff to work on which we've seen, but let's not act like he was brought with what they wanted him to do already in mind. They drafted him that high because they had expectations that he would be great in all phases of the game. That hasn't happened yet, which is fine and they've used him in ways that suit his strengths for now but don't for a second believe that they drafted him that high for a specific role. They want him to be complete whether it's from day one or not. That was the point I was trying to make. 

[BmoreBird22]

And where did I say that there wasn't a chance? I've never said he couldn't develop into a better pass rusher. Also, who said that he was going to be a complete pass rusher from day one? The main point of this back and forth was because of this:

 

 

While the Ravens may have be impressed by his run-stopping ability, they drafted Upshaw that high because they believed he was the complete package. He obviously has stuff to work on which we've seen, but let's not act like he was brought with what they wanted him to do already in mind. They drafted him that high because they had expectations that he would be great in all phases of the game. That hasn't happened yet, which is fine and they've used him in ways that suit his strengths for now but don't for a second believe that they drafted him that high for a specific role. They want him to be complete whether it's from day one or not. That was the point I was trying to make.

Okay, I think we're getting at the same thing, but we're on different pages on how we're saying it.

Upshaw was drafted to be a complete player, but he was a run stopper first. He has to develop the other aspects. That's what I meant and I should have clarified. I think people were backwards when they were thinking he could be a pass rusher from day one (not saying you, just some other people).

I don't think he was drafted just be a run stopper and nothing else. I think he was drafted to fill that role as he learned the pass rushing nuances (I guess I just repeated myself). We'll see this season (in all likelihood) how far he's come, and I am actually expecting big things if he can cut his weight down

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

Okay, I think we're getting at the same thing, but we're on different pages on how we're saying it.

Upshaw was drafted to be a complete player, but he was a run stopper first. He has to develop the other aspects. That's what I meant and I should have clarified. I think people were backwards when they were thinking he could be a pass rusher from day one (not saying you, just some other people).

I don't think he was drafted just be a run stopper and nothing else. I think he was drafted to fill that role as he learned the pass rushing nuances (I guess I just repeated myself). We'll see this season (in all likelihood) how far he's come, and I am actually expecting big things if he can cut his weight down

Ah, okay. Gotcha.

We'll see where he goes. I don't know how people could call him a bust this early. Still too early in his development for that.

[BmoreBird22]

Ah, okay.Gotcha. 

 

We'll see where he goes. I don't know how people could call him a bust this early. Still too early in his development for that.

Remember, this is the same board that hates Joe Flacco and called Jimmy Smith a bust.

[tolucaraven]

Jarret Johnson replacement, drafted for need not BPA. I wanted Alshon Jeffrey at the time. Not backseat driving. My opinion ALWAYS take BPA reguardless of position, unless it is QBS and you already have one and plan on trading one of them. If you draft for need you thin your overall talent. A position of strenght can be a weakness in a year in the NFL. Why pass on a Ed Reed cause you need a Guard or Lber at the time.

[tolucaraven]

Remember, this is the same board that hates Joe Flacco and called Jimmy Smith a bust.

Difference is Jimmy Smith has huge ceiling. Way more athetic and long and lean while strong, he also battled injuries. Upshaw lacks explosive quick step to be a good pass rusher. But, is a smart player. You have to beat your guy and get to the qb in 2.5 seconds. He also isnt a leaper to create deflections.

[Robbo15]

No To Alabama Defensive prospects

[tolucaraven]

No To Alabama Defensive prospects

I agree, hard to evaluate with all their surrounding talent.

[arnie_uk]

why you keep bringing up this pass rush crap?

i knew from the start he would be a good edge setter and an avg pass rusher needing to learn to get better at it,

he does a very good job in doing what he should do.

why would i worry about him being a pass rusher when we had suggs and kruger at first and now dumervil and suggs.

ill worry about his pass rushing when he becomes one of the top 2 guys to get the pass rush snaps.....

ill judge him on his pass rushing when he actually gets to rush the passer on a regular basis........

why wouldn't I bring pass rushing stats up for a 34 olb drafted at the top of the second round. Oh silly me for wanting a second round pick to do the main job a 34 olb is meant to do. Rush the passer.

[Tru11]

why wouldn't I bring pass rushing stats up for a 34 olb drafted at the top of the second round. Oh silly me for wanting a second round pick to do the main job a 34 olb is meant to do. Rush the passer.

 

i guess you never heard what a strong side linebacker and a weakside lineback primarely roles are.

i guess you dont know the difference between base and nickle/dime/quarter defenses and how OLB have different roles in each and anyone of them.

i guess you dont know that players are valued on the role they can fullfill on a team and not just the position they play.

 

3-4 linebackers should be able to play the run , rush the passer, drop back in zone, able to cover in space.

judging the value of these players comes down to what role you expect them to fullfill and how good do they excell in them.

while pass rushers are valued at a premium it doesent mean teams dont look at the other traits when determing who the best players are.

 

when you already have a suggs and a kruger on your team who proved to be able to rush the passer along with an seemed to to be up and comming guy like mcphee , its quite possible you arent lookin for a pass rusher per se in the draft.

when you then consider you just lost your primary edge setting LBer in FA ( JJ) you might focus on finding a replacement for that certain role.

 

now if you wanna fault a guy for being drafted to play another role then to be the primary pass rusher then go ahead.

if you want to discard the fact he has to fight for snaps with proven pass rushers like suggs, dumervil and mcphee then go ahead.

 

i just find it kind of disturbing that with other players you focus on their strengths when judging them but with this guy you only seem to care about his weakness.

 

i dont know what grudge you have against the guy and quite frankly i dont care.

 

you have your opinion and you wont change it.

its pointless proceeding with this discussion so if you dont mind i give up.

[The Raven]

i guess you never heard what a strong side linebacker and a weakside lineback primarely roles are.

i guess you dont know the difference between base and nickle/dime/quarter defenses and how OLB have different roles in each and anyone of them.

i guess you dont know that players are valued on the role they can fullfill on a team and not just the position they play.

 

3-4 linebackers should be able to play the run , rush the passer, drop back in zone, able to cover in space.

judging the value of these players comes down to what role you expect them to fullfill and how good do they excell in them.

while pass rushers are valued at a premium it doesent mean teams dont look at the other traits when determing who the best players are.

 

when you already have a suggs and a kruger on your team who proved to be able to rush the passer along with an seemed to to be up and comming guy like mcphee , its quite possible you arent lookin for a pass rusher per se in the draft.

when you then consider you just lost your primary edge setting LBer in FA ( JJ) you might focus on finding a replacement for that certain role.

 

now if you wanna fault a guy for being drafted to play another role then to be the primary pass rusher then go ahead.

if you want to discard the fact he has to fight for snaps with proven pass rushers like suggs, dumervil and mcphee then go ahead.

 

i just find it kind of disturbing that with other players you focus on their strengths when judging them but with this guy you only seem to care about his weakness.

 

i dont know what grudge you have against the guy and quite frankly i dont care.

 

you have your opinion and you wont change it.

its pointless proceeding with this discussion so if you dont mind i give up.

 

Yeah, it's pretty much common knowledge that in today's NFL, 3-4 OLBs need to be able to rush the passer effectively and play a DE type role at times... I guess that's not as common as I thought...

[gabefergy]

I'd be very interested to see the position distribution for those numbers. He played DT in sub packages at times on third down, so it's not as if he was always going after the quarterback. He also drops into coverage at times.

Those were all pass rush snaps under the designation of outside linebacker.

[Tru11]

same guys that defend flacco and make excusses when you highlight his weakness are now doing the exact opposite when it comes to upshaw.........

 

double standards at it finest lol.

 

bring on the negs 

[balfan23]

Bust and not quite what we'd hoped for after 2 years ... these are two very different things. 

 

I think he has improved our run D as he's gotten in the line up more often. I'm OK with him not being a pass rush killer, but for him to be truly worth his selection, he will have to be more than just a good edge setter. He's got to start showing that he can blow up run plays on his own strength and desire. 

 

I haven't given up that he can do that, but he hasn't shown quite that kind of dominance. Still time for that. Love to see him take another step forward this coming year. 

[codizzle]

He's doing exactly what was expected of him..

Sadly we had to use a high 2nd round pick to get a slow edge setting run stopper

[Militant X 1]

same guys that defend flacco and make excuses when you highlight his weakness are now doing the exact opposite when it comes to upshaw.........

 

double standards at it finest lol.

 

bring on the negs 

 

And you are surprised by this?  lol!

 

#Mili

[The Raven]

same guys that defend flacco and make excusses when you highlight his weakness are now doing the exact opposite when it comes to upshaw.........

 

double standards at it finest lol.

 

bring on the negs 

 

Lol what excuses are there for Upshaw? Not nearly as many variables involved with OLB as there are with QB and it's not even close to debatable. 

 

Quarterbacks need protection, scheme, and wide receivers.

 

OLB rely on what for success? Scheme, sure, but Suggs and Doom had success. Upshaw's issues are primarily his fault. It's not anyone's fault but his that he's slow as crap and can't run............. It's his fault he's had weight issues for two consecutive seasons. He has a good surrounding cast. He's in a scheme that uses him well. He's in a great situation and he's blowing it because he's letting himself be slow.

[arnie_uk]

i guess you never heard what a strong side linebacker and a weakside lineback primarely roles are.

i guess you dont know the difference between base and nickle/dime/quarter defenses and how OLB have different roles in each and anyone of them.

i guess you dont know that players are valued on the role they can fullfill on a team and not just the position they play.

3-4 linebackers should be able to play the run , rush the passer, drop back in zone, able to cover in space.

judging the value of these players comes down to what role you expect them to fullfill and how good do they excell in them.

while pass rushers are valued at a premium it doesent mean teams dont look at the other traits when determing who the best players are.

when you already have a suggs and a kruger on your team who proved to be able to rush the passer along with an seemed to to be up and comming guy like mcphee , its quite possible you arent lookin for a pass rusher per se in the draft.

when you then consider you just lost your primary edge setting LBer in FA ( JJ) you might focus on finding a replacement for that certain role.

now if you wanna fault a guy for being drafted to play another role then to be the primary pass rusher then go ahead.

if you want to discard the fact he has to fight for snaps with proven pass rushers like suggs, dumervil and mcphee then go ahead.

i just find it kind of disturbing that with other players you focus on their strengths when judging them but with this guy you only seem to care about his weakness.

i dont know what grudge you have against the guy and quite frankly i dont care.

you have your opinion and you wont change it.

its pointless proceeding with this discussion so if you dont mind i give up.

when u draft a 34 olb in the top on the second your expecting more than an edge setter. JJ was drafted in the 5th or 6th round for god sake. John simon has very similar traits to upshaw and could probably do as good a job and he went in the fourth round.

A 2nd round olb has to be able to rush the passer, he just has to, there's no way around that. Hes had almost 600 rushes of a qb in his career, I showed u the stats earlier, that's plenty to judge his ability to rush the passer

[arnie_uk]

same guys that defend flacco and make excusses when you highlight his weakness are now doing the exact opposite when it comes to upshaw.........

double standards at it finest lol.

bring on the negs

maybe if he showed me something, anything that he's trying to improve and values his position on tge roster id cut him some slack, but all hes shown thus far is he likes to eat and do little work in the offseason and show up to came on the wrong side of 300 lbs.

[Tru11]

Lol what excuses are there for Upshaw? Not nearly as many variables involved with OLB as there are with QB and it's not even close to debatable. 

 

Quarterbacks need protection, scheme, and wide receivers.

 

OLB rely on what for success? Scheme, sure, but Suggs and Doom had success. Upshaw's issues are primarily his fault. It's not anyone's fault but his that he's slow as crap and can't run............. It's his fault he's had weight issues for two consecutive seasons. He has a good surrounding cast. He's in a scheme that uses him well. He's in a great situation and he's blowing it because he's letting himself be slow.

 

OLB in a 3-4 need to be able to :

1 set the edge

2 rush the passer

3 be able to drop in zone coverage

4 be able to play man cov  when asked.

 

There are also 2 type of OLB:

weakside OLB and strongside OLB.

strongside usually lines up on the side the TE .

 

now lets get to suggs and dumervil.

 

suggs when drafted was only a pass rusher who never started and only came into the line up as a weakside OLB to rush the passer.

it took him a couple of seasons to become a good edge setter as the weakside OLB and it took him even longer to be able to drop in coverage and cover backs to a certain extend.

when he became good at all facets he actually became the defensive player of the year.

he however was not a complete OLB from the moment he got drafted.

 

dumevil is even more hilarious cause till this day he aint more then a pass rusher.

he isent a good edge setter and he is absolutely horrible in coverage let alone cover receivers .......

using him as a strongside OLB to set the edge is asking for trouble.

 

upshaw just finished his 2nd season  and he excells as an edge setter on the strongside , he can also drop in coverage on occasion but other then lookin in the backfield to cover backs he is much of a man cover olb.

anyone who saw him play in coverage or even botherd to read his scouting report knew what he was and knew what we are getting and so far he does what is being expected.

 

players that are considerd busts dont contribute to the team.

i find it hard to believe that anyone wants to claim that upshaw isen contributing..........

 

You have players who are role players fitting of 1 certain role and you have guys who can do it all.

 

why do you think mcclain is in to play the run and then goes out and arthur brown comes in to play the pass???

Why do you think they ask torrey smith to stretch the field and not to play boldin role???

Why do you think dickson is the 1 playing on run plays and pitta only comes in when its a pass play???

 

Is the term role player really not known???

[berad]

This is not becoming another flacco thread.

[arnie_uk]

OLB in a 3-4 need to be able to :

1 set the edge

2 rush the passer

3 be able to drop in zone coverage

4 be able to play man cov when asked.

There are also 2 type of OLB:

weakside OLB and strongside OLB.

strongside usually lines up on the side the TE .

now lets get to suggs and dumervil.

suggs when drafted was only a pass rusher who never started and only came into the line up as a weakside OLB to rush the passer.

it took him a couple of seasons to become a good edge setter as the weakside OLB and it took him even longer to be able to drop in coverage and cover backs to a certain extend.

when he became good at all facets he actually became the defensive player of the year.

he however was not a complete OLB from the moment he got drafted.

dumevil is even more hilarious cause till this day he aint more then a pass rusher.

he isent a good edge setter and he is absolutely horrible in coverage let alone cover receivers .......

using him as a strongside OLB to set the edge is asking for trouble.

upshaw just finished his 2nd season and he excells as an edge setter on the strongside , he can also drop in coverage on occasion but other then lookin in the backfield to cover backs he is much of a man cover olb.

anyone who saw him play in coverage or even botherd to read his scouting report knew what he was and knew what we are getting and so far he does what is being expected.

players that are considerd busts dont contribute to the team.

i find it hard to believe that anyone wants to claim that upshaw isen contributing..........

You have players who are role players fitting of 1 certain role and you have guys who can do it all.

why do you think mcclain is in to play the run and then goes out and arthur brown comes in to play the pass???

Why do you think they ask torrey smith to stretch the field and not to play boldin role???

Why do you think dickson is the 1 playing on run plays and pitta only comes in when its a pass play???

Is the term role player really not known???

you dont draft roll players in the second round. I understand entirely what ur saying. He's good at what he does, but in the second round he has to be a more complete player.

In the second round you'd be better drafting a pass rusher who cant stop the run rather than the other way round. McClain again was udfa, jj was round 5 or 6. Players like upshaw shouldn't be drafted that high.

Our differences in opinion stem entirely from you ignoring his draft status

[Willbacker]

Not sure what the argument is since I only read this page but Upshaw was asked to play on running plays and he did a fine job at sealing the edge. As for his shape and speed let's see what happens when he appears at OTAs.

[Willbacker]

you dont draft roll players in the second round. I understand entirely what ur saying. He's good at what he does, but in the second round he has to be a more complete player.

In the second round you'd be better drafting a pass rusher who cant stop the run rather than the other way round. McClain again was udfa, jj was round 5 or 6. Players like upshaw shouldn't be drafted that high.

Our differences in opinion stem entirely from you ignoring his draft status

Who you benching Suggs or Dumervil in pass situations.

[arnie_uk]

Who you benching Suggs or Dumervil in pass situations.

im not benching anyone go back a couple pages. He's rushed the passer almost 600 times got less than 50 pressures in his career. Hes in the bottom 15 in terms of pressure per pass rush out of over 70 34 olbs in the past 2 years.

His pass rushing is almost non existent

[Tru11]

you dont draft roll players in the second round. I understand entirely what ur saying. He's good at what he does, but in the second round he has to be a more complete player.

In the second round you'd be better drafting a pass rusher who cant stop the run rather than the other way round. McClain again was udfa, jj was round 5 or 6. Players like upshaw shouldn't be drafted that high.

Our differences in opinion stem entirely from you ignoring his draft status

 

based on his talent he was slated to be a 1st rounder.

in other words he was a 1st round talent.

 

we drafted him in the 2nd round lol.

 

i think you are ignoring the talent they slated towards him and where we got him.

 

i dont want to be rude but based on what do you believe you are better talent evaluater then everyone else in the NFL lol.

just read Purple_ICE reply where he dug up his Official NFL scouting combine report.

many similiar reports are saying the same thing.

matter of fact the ravens had him as a 1st rounder.

 

Also role players are drafted in any round.

talents determines where a player gets drafted.

heck there have been kickers drafted in early rounds .....

[Tru11]

im not benching anyone go back a couple pages. He's rushed the passer almost 600 times got less than 50 pressures in his career. Hes in the bottom 15 in terms of pressure per pass rush out of over 70 34 olbs in the past 2 years.

His pass rushing is almost non existent

 

id like to see the link to these stats.

[Willbacker]

im not benching anyone go back a couple pages. He's rushed the passer almost 600 times got less than 50 pressures in his career. Hes in the bottom 15 in terms of pressure per pass rush out of over 70 34 olbs in the past 2 years.

His pass rushing is almost non existent

Did he actually rush the QB or was he playing pass defense. 6oo times in passrush seems to be an awful lot of times for a situational player.