Revisiting the Jonathan Martin incident

[Moderator 3]

If something like this happened in any other business, there would be lawsuits, firings, huge fines, etc. It's time for the NFL to act like it really is "just business".

[Inqui]

If something like this happened in any other business, there would be lawsuits, firings, huge fines, etc. It's time for the NFL to act like it really is "just business".

I agree. I was going to disagree and talk about how that fired-up culture brings out the strongest and most competitive parts of athletes on the field, but you never hear of anything that bad in other sports. I know you get players being more like complete [bellends] the higher you go in a sport, but I honestly can't think of anything else that was this bad in any other sport. Feel free to prove me wrong here.

 

Imagine if Martin had gone through on his suicidal thoughts when he had them (and before anyone calls him weak, the NFL was the first time he'd had them). What's happening now would be considered tame. How many other talented athletes will the league miss out on or just needlessly weed out because of that kind of culture?

[Jokerraven]

After getting through the first 50 pages of that report (so basically their summation of findings backed up by evidence), I'm shifting from being on the fence to being on Martin's side. The Dolphins have clearly created a toxic environment but Incognito's really something else. Pouncey and Jerry are pretty pathetic too, considering it sounds like they were just following his lead. I'd be open to changing my mind if something came up, but that report looked pretty comprehensive and it sounds like they gave Richie the chance to state his case.

 

The question becomes what happens to the Dolphins from here. Apparently Incognito and Jerry are FAs so they shouldn't return, while there's surely no way Turner has a career in the NFL from here. I also see O'Neill (head trainer iirc, the one who laughed off the racial slurs directed at the assistant) got hostile with the report to the point the lawyers made a note of it - I'd say he'll be lucky to get away with an involuntary Lovie Smith impression (taking a year off, whether cut by the Dolphins or banned by the league).

 

Philbin's a bit more debatable, but who's really available to replace him at this point? And you'd think Goodell wants to take at least a pick or two away from them. The whole incident's given the NFL a bit of a black eye imo (I know the NFL isn't cupcakes, skipping and holding hands around the fire while singing Kumbaya, but this doesn't look good for the league at all), so you'd think he wants to come down hard.

 

Dave Dameshek called Incognito a troglodyte a while ago. I think he was being nice.

well said . I think maybe Philbin knew to what degree and extent is where the debate comes in. He either had selective hearing or he's the most clueless man on the planet either way I think he's gonna get away with one. My opinion has changed dramatically since this story first broke Initially I thought they assumed Martin was gay and bashed him because of it, then Ritchie came out and said he was going to be cleared of wrong doing I thought wow maybe Martin made it up or at least exaggerated  . I do know there is some hazing in locker rooms but this is beyond that   I read about 80 pages and stopped. I can't wait to see what's next . My gut tells me all the players involved will be playing in the nfl this upcoming season and I pray none of them end up here on the ravens .

[K-Dog]

It just saddens me that people treat people like this.

No, I am not envisioning a world where people hug and kiss all the time. But never in my life have I herd some one say "man! He said the meanest thing to me and it was SOOOOO COOL ! "

Think for a moment about people you truly respect, people you truly admire. Think about how they treat people, and how they treat you ( if you dont know them personally how you would like them to treat you ).

Would you REALLY be okay with them treating you or others in such a way?

[Jokerraven]

It just saddens me that people treat people like this.

No, I am not envisioning a world where people hug and kiss all the time. But never in my life have I herd some one say "man! He said the meanest thing to me and it was SOOOOO COOL ! "

Think for a moment about people you truly respect, people you truly admire. Think about how they treat people, and how they treat you ( if you dont know them personally how you would like them to treat you ).

Would you REALLY be okay with them treating you or others in such a way?

I agree I think this whole thing is horrible.

[Purple_ICE 81]

The bottom line is its ok to "toughen young players up" by maybe making them lift harder, train harder or more frequent, maybe put them on a special workout and study regimen (although Incognoto has a very lazy demeanor when it comes to working out). That kind of stuff is fine, but when your whole bright idea is to mock a guy and get personal with him in order to try and make him look like a loser and diminish his self asteem is pretty pothetic. Albeit  Jmartin is a big 300 pound man who should have stood up for him self when he felt helpless, the gay remarks and talking about his family takes it too a whole nother level and it seemed like Richie Incognito felt happy and chipper and like a big strong guy  by bullying Jmartin.

 

We are talking about 25 year old men bullying one another and one of them feeling like a sad 5th grader and contemplating suicide...that should shoot off fireworks in the Dolphins front office for them to take action and get the right coaching staff and players in place so that this wont happen again. If this happened in the Ravens locker room and Ray Lewis found out about it Im sure Richie Incognito would be put on I.R. and Ray Lewis would get tagged with a 4 game suspension. Maybe not to that extent but Ray Lewis would never let something like that happen. Maybe the Dolphins should go out and sign an Ed Reed or some savvy vet in order to bring stability to their locker room. And hopefully Joe Philbin gets fired as well...hell they should just sell the whole Dolphins franchise and start over, they got every single sought after free agent last year and had top 5 draft picks and still couldnt make it to the playoffs. Front office is a mess, coaching is a mess.They are turning into a lost cause.

[BloodRaven]

Have a look at the report. If you want, I'll mark a few pages down some time tomorrow (I'm way too tired to go through it all again). The report factored in the context of lockerroom culture, how much of that culture was likely instigated by Incognito and even Martin's participation in the "banter", but it still comes down hard in Incognito, Pouncey and Jerry. It also gave a really strong context for those recent text messages.

 

One guy did an investigation, reported his findings while offering his opinion and it's littered with the word "likely". There are a half dozen mens careers and livelihoods at stake.

[The Mom Gene]

One guy did an investigation, reported his findings while offering his opinion and it's littered with the word "likely". There are a half dozen mens careers and livelihoods at stake.

Yes there are...  and maybe some of those involved should have thought about that in the beginning.

[K-Dog]

My wife reminded me of the day Kelly Gregg showed up at the Ravens locker room.

Goose looks at him and says
"Hey who are you ? "

Gregg answers with his name and his position,

Goose responds with

 

"Hey every one look !!!!!!!! Buddy Lee is on our team. " ( if memory serves me correctly he did specify "on our team" which shows a level of acceptance. )

 

The nickname stuck for at least his entire time here in Baltimore. 

You CAN NOT compare that to this situation.  I dont know Goose, but I would be willing to bet by bottom dollar his intention was never to be mean, or to hurt, or to make Kelly Gregg tougher.  There is a line between fun and hurtful. Contrary to what some might think that line is rather broad and well defined, in the vast majority of the cases.

[The Raven]

Well now I don't know what to think! 

 

I think it's another one of those times where only those involved will ever know the whole truth and only distorted truths and rumors will surface. 

[BloodRaven]

My wife reminded me of the day Kelly Gregg showed up at the Ravens locker room.

Goose looks at him and says

"Hey who are you ? "

Gregg answers with his name and his position,

Goose responds with

 

"Hey every one look !!!!!!!! Buddy Lee is on our team. " ( if memory serves me correctly he did specify "on our team" which shows a level of acceptance. )

 

The nickname stuck for at least his entire time here in Baltimore. 

You CAN NOT compare that to this situation.  I dont know Goose, but I would be willing to bet by bottom dollar his intention was never to be mean, or to hurt, or to make Kelly Gregg tougher.  There is a line between fun and hurtful. Contrary to what some might think that line is rather broad and well defined, in the vast majority of the cases.

 

Remember when we used to haze rookies? guys were hog tied and dragged along the turf like cattle, drinks poured on their heads and being blasted in the face with water hoses etc, I remember Troy Smith tried to hide how upset he was. 

 

So what if Troy Smith walked out on the team and had Suggs suspended for bullying? humiliating rookies with hazing is ok but making crude jokes with buddies means careers are over?

[K-Dog]

So what if Troy Smith walked out on the team and had Suggs suspended for bullying? humiliating rookies with hazing is ok but making crude jokes with buddies means careers are over?

In my opinion, weather or not a player gets cut is a case by case basis.

The point I wanted to make with the post is that, there are levels of locker room hazing that is safe and maybe even somewhat fun, and there are levels that are not safe or fun. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to tell which is which.

The level of hazing in Miami is NOT normal. Is not the status quo. Even if it is, that doesn't make it appropriate.

[Alexir]

One coward whistleblows on his friends (when he too was joining in on it) and now everyone thinks Miami's hazing is the league worst? Or maybe other people know how to react to it and gain their teammates respect.

 

I think it's funny that you guys believe that just because some guy couldn't handle it in Miami that this doesn't go on in Baltimore, New England, Seattle, etc.

[K-Dog]

One coward whistleblows on his friends (when he too was joining in on it) and now everyone thinks Miami's hazing is the league worst? Or maybe other people know how to react to it and gain their teammates respect.

.

It might be tough to argue Ray Lewis ( called the godfather by his peers ) is one of the most respected players in the NFL.

Knowing how he treated not only his team mates but his opponents.

Tell me how he earned respect in the NFL.

[Alexir]

It might be tough to argue Ray Lewis ( called the godfather by his peers ) is one of the most respected players in the NFL.

Knowing how he treated not only his team mates but his opponents.

Tell me how he earned respect in the NFL.

 

There is different ways of gaining respect. Martin couldn't do it on the field or at practice. Ray got his respect every Sunday by the way he played.

[Guest Omerta]

Dudes a punk.

[redrum52]

I feel like the Buccaneers are less dysfuctional than the jags and  a few pieces away from being contenders

Why did this get negged?  If you actually look at the Bucs roster, they easily have to potential to be a top team in the NFC and very soon.  I think even with the coaching changes you see huge improvements this year.

[redrum52]

My wife reminded me of the day Kelly Gregg showed up at the Ravens locker room.

Goose looks at him and says

"Hey who are you ? "

Gregg answers with his name and his position,

Goose responds with

 

"Hey every one look !!!!!!!! Buddy Lee is on our team. " ( if memory serves me correctly he did specify "on our team" which shows a level of acceptance. )

 

The nickname stuck for at least his entire time here in Baltimore. 

You CAN NOT compare that to this situation.  I dont know Goose, but I would be willing to bet by bottom dollar his intention was never to be mean, or to hurt, or to make Kelly Gregg tougher.  There is a line between fun and hurtful. Contrary to what some might think that line is rather broad and well defined, in the vast majority of the cases.

The Goose might not be the best example.  No one knows what happens in the locker rooms.  I can tell you this though, I guarantee Goose pushed some peoples buttons.  Look at the stuff he did on camera and tell me honestly think that's really as far as he'd take it?  Didn't he also have rookies paying for meals too?  I'm pretty sure on Hard Knocks he was getting at Heap about how much money he was making and thinking of ways to spend it.

[The Mom Gene]

It might be tough to argue Ray Lewis ( called the godfather by his peers ) is one of the most respected players in the NFL.

Knowing how he treated not only his team mates but his opponents.

Tell me how he earned respect in the NFL.

After his ordeal, he began working in the community to mentor young men and women in trouble.  He also began working with other NFL players to help them as well...  He led by example.  That's how he earned the respect.  Not by bullying and intimidating other players, but by encouraging them.

[K-Dog]

There is different ways of gaining respect. Martin couldn't do it on the field or at practice. Ray got his respect every Sunday by the way he played.

Agree on all points, but if I may I would like to expand.  Just because some one  does not earn or in your words "gain"  respect does not entitle them to disrespect. It does not have to be that defined of a two way street.

My point, Ray earned his respect on several levels.  By blowing players up on the field, and by always giving them a hug afterward and telling them he loved them.

I will never forget the time Ray sacked Brett Favre.  Wrapped him up, almost gently it seemed and he picked him up and said " I respect the hell out of you "

That is how he earns respect.  Not by bullying.  Not by fighting back.

 

The Goose might not be the best example.  No one knows what happens in the locker rooms.  I can tell you this though, I guarantee Goose pushed some peoples buttons.  Look at the stuff he did on camera and tell me honestly think that's really as far as he'd take it?  Didn't he also have rookies paying for meals too?  I'm pretty sure on Hard Knocks he was getting at Heap about how much money he was making and thinking of ways to spend it.

 

I actually think Goose is a great example.  Granted I dont know the guy, but he strikes me as some one who loves to have fun.  Even at some one elses expense. I am speculating completely I know but get a coupla beers in the guy and maybe even more so.  I really dont know for sure but even with that I cant imagine he would do it with the intent of making some one feel like less of a man.

I am not the kind of person that expects every one in a locker room to hug and kiss.  That would just be creepy.  That said, I think an ideal locker room is one that is a blend of fun and mutual respect.  I understand those two terms can be relative, and that its self could be the root of the problem.  Make some one buy your meal.   Maybe put their jock in the freezer, but know when enough is enough and never do any thing to make a person to feel like less of a man.  That benefits no one.

[Purple_ICE 81]

Why did this get negged?  If you actually look at the Bucs roster, they easily have to potential to be a top team in the NFC and very soon.  I think even with the coaching changes you see huge improvements this year.

Yea if they get a QB for Vincent Jackson Doug Martin and Mike Williams and a pass rusher they will be pretty good. They have a ton of pieces in place on both offense and defense and I feel like Lovie Smith is the glue that will put it all together.

[Inqui]

One guy did an investigation, reported his findings while offering his opinion and it's littered with the word "likely". There are a half dozen mens careers and livelihoods at stake.

It was actually four guys, and they interviewed more than 100 people including the members/spokesmen of the NFLPA and they used the word "likely" when it was needed. They had plenty of things that went in as absolutes (page 133 for some more context on the Martin texts that got released early, for example). It was a comprehensive report, it's more than just conjecture and it does take a lot of things into context. It's not perfect by any stretch, but I don't think it can be ignored either. Those half dozen guys got the chance to make their case.

[Inqui]

Like I say, I'd be interested to see how everyone would have reacted had Martin gone through with everything when he felt suicidal. Would he be treated as a victim or a [slur removed] who had no place in the league?

[BloodRaven]

It was actually four guys, and they interviewed more than 100 people including the members/spokesmen of the NFLPA and they used the word "likely" when it was needed. They had plenty of things that went in as absolutes (page 133 for some more context on the Martin texts that got released early, for example). It was a comprehensive report, it's more than just conjecture and it does take a lot of things into context. It's not perfect by any stretch, but I don't think it can be ignored either. Those half dozen guys got the chance to make their case.

 

"Player A" in Wells report was revealed as Andrew McDonald, now OT for the Panthers. He recently had his agent release a statement discrediting the portrayal of his relationship with Jim Turner and the team.

 

Like I said this report isn't the gospel it's one persons opinion.

[Jokerraven]

Like I say, I'd be interested to see how everyone would have reacted had Martin gone through with everything when he felt suicidal. Would he be treated as a victim or a [slur removed] who had no place in the league?

I think this would have been tragic even more so if he had walked into that locker room and stood up for himself with a gun which seems to happen allot in bullying cases. I think he chose  the best option. I agree with you about the report so many players and coaches outright lied I find the investigator to be more credible then the players and coaches  he interviewed. How can you "not recall giving someone a male blow up doll. The owner of the dolphins needs to clean house .

[Inqui]

I think this would have been tragic even more so if he had walked into that locker room and stood up for himself with a gun which seems to happen allot in bullying cases. I think he chose  the best option. I agree with you about the report so many players and coaches outright lied I find the investigator to be more credible then the players and coaches  he interviewed. How can you "not recall giving someone a male blow up doll. The owner of the dolphins needs to clean house .

Yeah, I agree it would have been far more tragic. I also feel like it would dramatically change public perception of the whole thing.

[Inqui]

"Player A" in Wells report was revealed as Andrew McDonald, now OT for the Panthers. He recently had his agent release a statement discrediting the portrayal of his relationship with Jim Turner and the team.

 

Like I said this report isn't the gospel it's one persons opinion.

He might be wanting to keep his future options open. People are always coming from their own agenda.

 

I get where you're coming from, but the report also has a lot of facts that haven't been dug up otherwise, and it factors in more than a hundred of those agendas. I just feel like it's a lot more reliable than you're giving it credit for.

[Inqui]

The story takes an ironic twist in its latest update. At least he wasn't molested with a golf club.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/general/writer/gregg-doyel/24444505/after-richie-incognito-gets-taste-of-his-own-medicine-can-it-be-a-cure

[BloodRaven]

He might be wanting to keep his future options open. People are always coming from their own agenda.

 

I get where you're coming from, but the report also has a lot of facts that haven't been dug up otherwise, and it factors in more than a hundred of those agendas. I just feel like it's a lot more reliable than you're giving it credit for.

You could be right, but you can apply hypothetical agendas to anyone. What if Wells was bullied as a kid and secretly wanted to bury Incognito regardless of his findings? See how that works?

I'm not saying this story is definite one way or another but it's not hard to follow the patterns. People who played against Richie describe him as dirty, that tells me he's a dirty player. Those who played with him (except one) defended him and describe him as a great teammate, that tells me he's a great teammate.

[runamuk]

As if this whole situation isn't weird enough . Now Bryant McKinnie is trying to be the voice of reason  http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/18/bryant-mckinnie-jonathan-martin-went-about-it-the-wrong-way/