Gary Kubiak's system impact on Ravens personnel?

[Ravensfan23]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read this system is based less on reading the hole and more on just hitting the line, almost like man blocking. This could bode well for Rice who showed limited vision

No it definitely takes vision. Even though the cut back is a huge part, you have to be able to read the blocks of you guys. Often times a "hole" isn't actually created. The oline flows in one direction and the RB has to read the FB and oline for that opening or cut back.

Rice doesn't have great vision but his vision is plenty good for success in this system or any other. I actually worry about his paitence more then his vision. When Leach first got here and we started implementing this zone, Vontae had to tell Rice plenty of times just stick with me. Even Ray Lewis often would have to tell Rice to stay with his FB, because Ray would want to cut back too quick. So some of that is vision, but it's more about him just being paitent enough to allow things to develop. I think both Rice and BP should have big years if the oline comes together.

[BmoreBird22]

No it definitely takes vision. Even though the cut back is a huge part, you have to be able to read the blocks of you guys. Often times a "hole" isn't actually created. The oline flows in one direction and the RB has to read the FB and oline for that opening or cut back.

Rice doesn't have great vision but his vision is plenty good for success in this system or any other. I actually worry about his paitence more then his vision. When Leach first got here and we started implementing this zone, Vontae had to tell Rice plenty of times just stick with me. Even Ray Lewis often would have to tell Rice to stay with his FB, because Ray would want to cut back too quick. So some of that is vision, but it's more about him just being paitent enough to allow things to develop. I think both Rice and BP should have big years if the oline comes together.

I know how the zone blocking scheme works, but I had read somewhere that Kubiak's system was more react, not read. That's why I asked.

Trust me, I hate that Rice isn't patient. That's a big reason I love Pierce - if he doesn't see something, he will wait for something to develop. Rice just goes full steam ahead no matter what.

[JoeyFlex5]

if pierce stays healthy, he will explode onto the scene with a fully functioning ZBS stretch scheme. if you watch arian foster in kubes system, on the successful run plays, he made the 1 cut upfield, and wasnt touched until he reached the secondary half the time. linebackers and DT's bounce off of pierce like a tennis ball, if he reaches the defensive backfield on a regular basis, he wont be stopped. i said his whole rookie year after he started getting regular carries "this guy does NOT go down on the first hit" and i literally cannot recall him in a 1v1 open field situation where someone successfully tackled him. thats the kind of guy you want for this system

[JoeyFlex5]

I know how the zone blocking scheme works, but I had read somewhere that Kubiak's system was more react, not read. That's why I asked.

Trust me, I hate that Rice isn't patient. That's a big reason I love Pierce - if he doesn't see something, he will wait for something to develop. Rice just goes full steam ahead no matter what.

the crazy thing about that is, when he was younger he got tons of praise heaped on him regarding his patience behind the LOS. i see whatur saying though he just did a complete 180 last season

[jdynamite]

I had the thought that Pierce could see big improvement in this system, but he has to run like he did his rookie season make one- cut and go. Sometimes this year he went side to side often similar to Rice.

Pierce may need to work on conditioning, and taking care of his body, because he seems to have nagging injuries that lasts week to week.

I'd like to see Ray Rice lose a few pounds because he just doesn't have the balance that he had earlier in his career. He's put on weight and muscle but he breaks less tackles and constantly fall with minimal contact.

[NaveSenrag]

Right that was because Gino just wasn't comfortable making those calls imo. Birk said the hardest thing for him to adjust to as a young Center was line calls and adjustments. Depending on the system and how it's coached that could be really tough. I'm not saying this system will turn Gino into a great Center but I think he'll be much more comfortable and sure of himself in year 2. Still think he should compete for the job though.

Hopefully he'll have better competition than he did last offseason.

[PurpleCityLights]

I cant wait untill the draft.....

[The Raven]

I don't think this is necessarily true.  I think Pierce has more power to break through bad blocking that Rice, and that's why he was a marginally better running back this year.  But lets not kid ourselves, both running backs performed terribly this year (though it really wasn't their fault).

 

Rice needs good primary blocks to get off the line, and then uses his elusiveness to force missed tackles up the field for big gains.  Pierce is more of a power rusher and has the ability to get yards even when the blocking scheme completely breaks down (which it did on a vast majority of running plays this year).

 

I hate all of the talk that Rice is done (not saying you said this The Raven).  Yes, he had a bad year, but Pierce had a bad year as well.  I think next year, with a large improvement in our ZBS, our running game will be back on track.

 

Oh ,yeah, I know Rice isn't done, and I was just exaggerating the point. Rice has a tendency to dance before hitting the hole, while Pierce is more of a no nonsense, one cut and go kind of back. Based on what Kubiak said about his running backs needing to get downhill, I think Pierce is his guy. I do think Rice will get his carries though. I think this is the year we see him transition to more of a third down and receiving back role, and that's the best way to both extend his career and utilize his skills to the max.

 

I agree Peirce clearly has better vision then Rice from what I see. I think this system fits him perfectly and it'll be huge for his career. The heath concern is a issue because of his running style, but I expect to see a lot more production from BP. He's the future of this backfield and this offense fits his skills to a T. Rice will still be productive though.

I'll tell yo someone else who probably benefits greatly from this system and the hire of Kubiak probably saved his career....Gino G. Kubiak and Dennison turned a 6'4 285lbs Center into a all pro in this sytem. Now yes, Chris Myers is worlds better then Gino right now, but if Gino can take to this system and learn to play with more Leverage, he can certianly thrive in this system.

 

Gino needs to get in the weight room and get stronger, and he needs to start using his athleticism more, but yeah, this system is ideal for him. Chris Myers, although small, is stronger than most centers in the league. Gino needs to add serious muscle, and he really needs to develop his core strength. Myers has a strong core, and that's really key to two things: A strong core helps linemen anchor, and it gives you more balance/strength in the ZBS where the first step isn't always forward. 

[ravensfan520]

I think this system will help both Rice and Pierce and will make Pierce more of a feature back and Rice as the third down and passing situation.

[The Raven]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read this system is based less on reading the hole and more on just hitting the line, almost like man blocking. This could bode well for Rice who showed limited vision

 

In this system, the back is given an aiming point. The two main plays are inside zone and outside zone. On inside zone, the aiming point is the outside leg of the guard. Then, the running back reads the helmet of the defender. If the helmet of the DT crosses the RG's outside shoulder, he cuts to the A. If it's on the inside, he stays on track in the B gap.

 

On outside zone, the aiming point is the outside leg of the end man on the LOS, usually the TE. He reads the last defender on the LOS. If the DE crosses the TE/T's face, he keeps the run outside. If the DE gets around the edge, he cuts into the B or C gap. 

 

Basically, it's less about reading gaps and more about reading players. The basic principle behind it is Lombardi's old adage "Run to daylight."

[Ravensfan23]

Oh ,yeah, I know Rice isn't done, and I was just exaggerating the point. Rice has a tendency to dance before hitting the hole, while Pierce is more of a no nonsense, one cut and go kind of back. Based on what Kubiak said about his running backs needing to get downhill, I think Pierce is his guy. I do think Rice will get his carries though. I think this is the year we see him transition to more of a third down and receiving back role, and that's the best way to both extend his career and utilize his skills to the max.

 

 

Gino needs to get in the weight room and get stronger, and he needs to start using his athleticism more, but yeah, this system is ideal for him. Chris Myers, although small, is stronger than most centers in the league. Gino needs to add serious muscle, and he really needs to develop his core strength. Myers has a strong core, and that's really key to two things: A strong core helps linemen anchor, and it gives you more balance/strength in the ZBS where the first step isn't always forward.

Oh I definitely think Gino needs work. His strenght is the biggest concern. Much like you said about Myers, it's not about getting bigger moreso just getting stronger. I just think this system is a great fit for Gino and without it probably would have been nothing more then a journeyman probably. I think being in his 3rd season should allow him to not think as much and just allow his abilities to show.

Hopefully he'll have better competition than he did last offseason.

I'm thinking maybe Wade Smith. He isn't great, but he really took to Kubiak's system and also has experience as a Center. He already knows the system and how Kubes wants it blocked up. He could be good competition for Gino and insurance for KO. Might be a nice stopgap player.

[BmoreBird22]

In this system, the back is given an aiming point. The two main plays are inside zone and outside zone. On inside zone, the aiming point is the outside leg of the guard. Then, the running back reads the helmet of the defender. If the helmet of the DT crosses the RG's outside shoulder, he cuts to the A. If it's on the inside, he stays on track in the B gap.

 

On outside zone, the aiming point is the outside leg of the end man on the LOS, usually the TE. He reads the last defender on the LOS. If the DE crosses the TE/T's face, he keeps the run outside. If the DE gets around the edge, he cuts into the B or C gap. 

 

Basically, it's less about reading gaps and more about reading players. The basic principle behind it is Lombardi's old adage "Run to daylight."

Refer to what I said above to Ravensfan23. Something I read just threw me off

[The Raven]

I know how the zone blocking scheme works, but I had read somewhere that Kubiak's system was more react, not read. That's why I asked.

Trust me, I hate that Rice isn't patient. That's a big reason I love Pierce - if he doesn't see something, he will wait for something to develop. Rice just goes full steam ahead no matter what.

 

Well, the job of a back is to read and react in this scheme. You have to read the keys and then react. 

 

Now, Kubiak's scheme asks the linemen to do more attacking than reacting, which gives it the advantage over Castillo's. 

[jimmypowder]

They are probably the best duo backs in the league and Gary will prove that hypothesis. Rice gaining weight lost his elusiveness which was his trademark back in 08. If Rice can get back to his considered weight and Pierce staying healthy, we are looking at the best ground attack that we all have envisioned awhile ago...

Assuming we have a better oline.

[BmoreBird22]

Well, the job of a back is to read and react in this scheme. You have to read the keys and then react. 

 

Now, Kubiak's scheme asks the linemen to do more attacking than reacting, which gives it the advantage over Castillo's.

Now that you say that, I think I read it about the lineman, not the running backs.

Thanks for clearing that up

[Bravens292]

Pierce had rotator cuff surgery today. 4-5 months rehab. tweet from Aaron Wilson.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Right that was because Gino just wasn't comfortable making those calls imo. Birk said the hardest thing for him to adjust to as a young Center was line calls and adjustments. Depending on the system and how it's coached that could be really tough. I'm not saying this system will turn Gino into a great Center but I think he'll be much more comfortable and sure of himself in year 2. Still think he should compete for the job though.

 

It'll be his 3rd year actually but i see your point.  Not like we have much of a choice.  I'd still would want to draft a high caliber center though.  Im thinking a guy like Tyler Larsen or another center @ 4th round.

 

Gino never really had any upside and it was going to be a steep climb for him.   I feel like Gino is another case of 'overlooking' a small school player for so long that FO eventually warmed up to him to draft him high.  A-la Jah Reid/Oniel Cousins  

[Gordo52]

Pierce had rotator cuff surgery today. 4-5 months rehab. tweet from Aaron Wilson.

Damn that sucks. Hope it's a speedy recovery.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Pierce had rotator cuff surgery today. 4-5 months rehab. tweet from Aaron Wilson.

Ouch.

[The Raven]

With Pierce recovering and Rice on the potential decline, I think it's pretty likely that we draft a back in the mid rounds or sign a FA back. 

 

I know it sounds unlikely to draft a back now, but I don't think many people saw it coming when we drafted Rice in the second or Pierce in the third. Based on Ozzie's past, I think it's likely we get a back around the mid rounds. 

[Ravensfan23]

It'll be his 3rd year actually but i see your point.  Not like we have much of a choice.  I'd still would want to draft a high caliber center though.  Im thinking a guy like Tyler Larsen or another center @ 4th round.

 

Gino never really had any upside and it was going to be a steep climb for him.   I feel like Gino is another case of 'overlooking' a small school player for so long that FO eventually warmed up to him to draft him high.  A-la Jah Reid/Oniel Cousins

I was refering to his 2nd year of making line calls, but we're on the same page there. However what I do diagree with is your overall stance on Gino and drafting a high caliber center in this draft. Honestly you'd be hard pressed to find a high caliber center in this draft, in fact it's hard to find high caliber centers in most drafts, but this one is really bad imo. I'm a huge FSU had and I wouldn't even draft Stork tbh. I seriously don't feel you find anyone as good, certainly not better then Gino in this draft.

As for his upside I think Gino has "good" upside and now that we have a system that really fits him, he might have tremendous upside. Gino's situation is much different then Jah and cousins. Jah Reid was/is a really talented RT was has been hampered by injuries his first couple years. I'd caution fans not to give up on that guy yet. He is another guy who this system fits. Cousins, much like Harewood were drafted as developmental players. There ceiling was no more then rotational olineman imo, but they were never viewed as long term starters imo. Gino and Jah were drafted as potential starters, but it's been a rough start for both. I think this system fits both guys and wouldn't be shocked at all to see both guys win competitions to start at Center and RT. Fans wouldn't like it I'm sure but both guys could excell in this blocking scheme. Now before anyone fires shots at me, I'm not saying that's who I think or want to start for us, just wouldn't be surprised.

[Guest Mr. Nobody]

With Pierce recovering and Rice on the potential decline, I think it's pretty likely that we draft a back in the mid rounds or sign a FA back. 

 

I know it sounds unlikely to draft a back now, but I don't think many people saw it coming when we drafted Rice in the second or Pierce in the third. Based on Ozzie's past, I think it's likely we get a back around the mid rounds. 

been saying this already in the draft section, there's no way we're not spending one of the eight picks we currently have on a back; either 3rd or comp 4th comes to mind

[The Raven]

been saying this already in the draft section, there's no way we're not spending one of the eight picks we currently have on a back; either 3rd or comp 4th comes to mind

 

I think the comp 4th is where we grab a back. 

 

Although, with Kubiak's track record for making average backs look great, I also wouldn't be surprised if we just brought in some UDFA. Really can't tell for sure, ya know?

[PurpleCityLights]

Out of this draft we need a RB,WR,RG,C,QB,TE,S (Free Safty),LB & not in that order.

[The Raven]

Out of this draft we need a RB,WR,RG,C,QB,TE,S (Free Safty),LB & not in that order.

 

Pretty sure you can cross RG and QB off your list. Did you mean RT? Because we need that.

[PurpleCityLights]

Pretty sure you can cross RG and QB off your list. Did you mean RT? Because we need that.

RT yes, & Tyrod will not be around long so yeah another QB....

[The Raven]

RT yes, & Tyrod will not be around long so yeah another QB....

 

Rather get a FA QB with a few starts under his belt than a rookie project, but I don't want to get off topic. 

[JoeyFlex5]

if pierce stays healthy, then him and gino will be the catalyst for this offense, if those 2(or whoever our center is) perform up to standards, and if our RT performs(hopefully we have a RT and can keep KO at RG and he stays healthy) then this offense will take off. the only factor left after that is how well we run the play action. if we run the ball effectively in this scheme, and sell the play action, the sky is the limit for this offense. 

 

the line needs to create the cut lanes, and pierce needs to be decisive and make the right reads on the lanes, and he needs to know when the lanes arent going to develop and he needs to be quick enough to make the Dline overpursue and cutback to make them pay for it, that is where arian foster was great, if the running lanes broke down, he still managed to make some of his biggest plays by cutting all the way back after he made the defense overpursue. 

 

matt schaub is nothing spectacular, but you cant deny his ability to run the play action, houston always made defenses bite on the fake, and he knew where he needed to go after the fake, and he was decisive in the play action game, if he saw a safety bite, he stopped running, planted his feet, and hit the receiver/TE without thinking too much or trying to extend the play. i think joe flacco will do 10x what matt schaub did because joes arm, mobility, and ability to throw on the run is much better than schaubs, and schaub also never had as much of a deep threat as we have with torrey(andre is a better overall receiver by far, but doesnt have anywhere near the speed torrey has) and owen daniels is not as good of a TE as pitta. 

 

given the run game works, and the o-line plays competent, pierce and joe will skyrocket in this system