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cushrinada1986

Gary Kubiak's system impact on Ravens personnel?

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Given what Kubiak had in Texas, could Kubiaks scheme really help not just our star players but our backup players as well like Pierce's  and  help his production get to a potential probowl level? The run scheme Kubiak had in Texas helped Foster really explode in the running game/Playaction and with the fact that guys like Pierce/pitta are somewhat similar/better to guys he had in Houston like  Foster/Graham, do you think we could have a potential situation with our backups as well as our starters that we had with priest holmes and Jamal Lewis over a decade ago(as an example)?

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Perhaps because I feel Rice is done and you couldn't make a better offensive system for Pierce. But he needs to stay healthy. He seems always hurt

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All depends on health.  He can thrive in any scheme, but the zone stretch is what he was made for.

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I think we see Pierce take the starting role this season, and he's going to run with it. 

 

I doubt it especially with a  healthy/ more in shape Ray Rice  but I do believe he will have a good season , I can see Rice and Pierce having the same type of season Foster and Tate had in 2011.

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I doubt it especially with a  healthy/ more in shape Ray Rice  but I do believe he will have a good season , I can see Rice and Pierce having the same type of season Foster and Tate had in 2011.

 

Pierce just has better vision than Rice, and this system is dependent on good vision.

 

We need backs that make one cut and go instead of the five million and two cuts Rice makes before falling into the hole. Pierce is just a better fit schematically. 

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Pierce just has better vision than Rice, and this system is dependent on good vision.

 

We need backs that make one cut and go instead of the five million and two cuts Rice makes before falling into the hole. Pierce is just a better fit schematically. 

They are probably the best duo backs in the league and Gary will prove that hypothesis.  Rice gaining weight lost his elusiveness which was his trademark back in 08.  If Rice can get back to his considered weight and Pierce staying healthy, we are looking at the best ground attack that we all have envisioned awhile ago...

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Pierce just has better vision than Rice, and this system is dependent on good vision.

 

We need backs that make one cut and go instead of the five million and two cuts Rice makes before falling into the hole. Pierce is just a better fit schematically. 

 

I always thought Rice had better vision but we shall see.

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Given what Kubiak had in Texas, could Kubiaks scheme really help Pierce's production get to a potential probowl level? The run scheme Kubiak had in Texas helped Foster really explode in the running game and with the fact that Pierce and Foster are the same size and same type runner, and with Bernard being the faster back, do you think we could have a potential situation with Bernard that we had with priest holmes and Jamal Lewis over a decade ago?

I think by adding Kubiak all aspects of the Ravens' offense should see great improvements and a healthy Pierce will elevate his performance as a result. However, what made Foster so dynamic in Kubiak's system was that he was equally skilled as a receiver. When on the field, there was always a threat of run or pass. That made the scheme so unpredictable and made Foster a Pro Bowl back as a result. Rice will probably see more growth in Kubiak's scheme because of this, but Pierce will elevate his play as well if he works on the passing game's protection reads, hot routes and his hands. I think he will. He has to if he will be used more often..

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Pierce just has better vision than Rice, and this system is dependent on good vision.

 

We need backs that make one cut and go instead of the five million and two cuts Rice makes before falling into the hole. Pierce is just a better fit schematically. 

 

I don't think this is necessarily true.  I think Pierce has more power to break through bad blocking that Rice, and that's why he was a marginally better running back this year.  But lets not kid ourselves, both running backs performed terribly this year (though it really wasn't their fault).

 

Rice needs good primary blocks to get off the line, and then uses his elusiveness to force missed tackles up the field for big gains.  Pierce is more of a power rusher and has the ability to get yards even when the blocking scheme completely breaks down (which it did on a vast majority of running plays this year).

 

I hate all of the talk that Rice is done (not saying you said this The Raven).  Yes, he had a bad year, but Pierce had a bad year as well.  I think next year, with a large improvement in our ZBS, our running game will be back on track.

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I agree Peirce clearly has better vision then Rice from what I see. I think this system fits him perfectly and it'll be huge for his career. The heath concern is a issue because of his running style, but I expect to see a lot more production from BP. He's the future of this backfield and this offense fits his skills to a T. Rice will still be productive though.

I'll tell yo someone else who probably benefits greatly from this system and the hire of Kubiak probably saved his career....Gino G. Kubiak and Dennison turned a 6'4 285lbs Center into a all pro in this sytem. Now yes, Chris Myers is worlds better then Gino right now, but if Gino can take to this system and learn to play with more Leverage, he can certianly thrive in this system.

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I agree Peirce clearly has better vision then Rice from what I see. I think this system fits him perfectly and it'll be huge for his career. The heath concern is a issue because of his running style, but I expect to see a lot more production from BP. He's the future of this backfield and this offense fits his skills to a T. Rice will still be productive though.

I'll tell yo someone else who probably benefits greatly from this system and the hire of Kubiak probably saved his career....Gino G. Kubiak and Dennison turned a 6'4 285lbs Center into a all pro in this sytem. Now yes, Chris Myers is worlds better then Gino right now, but if Gino can take to this system and learn to play with more Leverage, he can certianly thrive in this system.

He was beginning to hold up better with blocks toward the end of the year, so I don't doubt he can learn to play with proper technique and hold his own, but what concerns me is that lack of knowledge we have from Gino. He's just routinely out of place and lost in his blocks because he cannot make the right call. Defenses knew they could run stunts, delays, crosses, or anything remotely close to get a sack.
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It seems like Pierce is hurting after every play. Injury is always a concern with him, but if hes healthy he is hard to stop.

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Given what Kubiak had in Texas, could Kubiaks scheme really help Pierce's production get to a potential probowl level? The run scheme Kubiak had in Texas helped Foster really explode in the running game and with the fact that Pierce and Foster are the same size and same type runner, and with Bernard being the faster back, do you think we could have a potential situation with Bernard that we had with priest holmes and Jamal Lewis over a decade ago?

It's all about the O-line. Also, Pierce needs to become more durable. We can be #1 in rushing if the O-line blocks correctly.

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I agree Peirce clearly has better vision then Rice from what I see. I think this system fits him perfectly and it'll be huge for his career. The heath concern is a issue because of his running style, but I expect to see a lot more production from BP. He's the future of this backfield and this offense fits his skills to a T. Rice will still be productive though.

I'll tell yo someone else who probably benefits greatly from this system and the hire of Kubiak probably saved his career....Gino G. Kubiak and Dennison turned a 6'4 285lbs Center into a all pro in this sytem. Now yes, Chris Myers is worlds better then Gino right now, but if Gino can take to this system and learn to play with more Leverage, he can certianly thrive in this system.

Gino is at best a back up in this league IMO. His pass blocking got better as the season went on, but his run blocking was pure putrid!!

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He was beginning to hold up better with blocks toward the end of the year, so I don't doubt he can learn to play with proper technique and hold his own, but what concerns me is that lack of knowledge we have from Gino. He's just routinely out of place and lost in his blocks because he cannot make the right call. Defenses knew they could run stunts, delays, crosses, or anything remotely close to get a sack.

Yea I think some of that is the fault of the system and some the fault of Gino. McKinnie said when he left that Castillo's offense required a lot of thinking. It's tough to ask a young player to think more. You usually want young players to think less and just play. But Gino was asked to not only think for himself but also think for the entire oline as well. I think he'll be much better under Castillo in Kubes system and maybe some pointers from Dennison. Everyone should be on the same page so even if he's hearing more then one voice, it's the same message.

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Gino is at best a back up in this league IMO. His pass blocking got better as the season went on, but his run blocking was pure putrid!!

As was Yanda's and he's an all pro player. The oline as a unit struggled last year and I for one think it's unfair to judge what Gino can or can't be off one season where everything about him was poor or below standards as well.

Also think about this. Wade Smith was a career journeyman before he got into Kubes system 4 years, so I wouldn't be so quick to write off Gino. Just wait and see what he can improve upon first.

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He will he is perfect for this system rice might be past his prime and he dances too much in the holes

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Yea I think some of that is the fault of the system and some the fault of Gino. McKinnie said when he left that Castillo's offense required a lot of thinking. It's tough to ask a young player to think more. You usually want young players to think less and just play. But Gino was asked to not only think for himself but also think for the entire oline as well. I think he'll be much better under Castillo in Kubes system and maybe some pointers from Dennison. Everyone should be on the same page so even if he's hearing more then one voice, it's the same message.

Agreed. McKinnie didn't express a need to think alot on and off the field at times and in hind sight, this really could limit him even more as his career goes on. It's good to see that Gino is willing to take-on the challenge of mastering this blocking scheme. I only wish him the best and I hope that attitude resonates with all of our players.

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Yea I think some of that is the fault of the system and some the fault of Gino. McKinnie said when he left that Castillo's offense required a lot of thinking. It's tough to ask a young player to think more. You usually want young players to think less and just play. But Gino was asked to not only think for himself but also think for the entire oline as well. I think he'll be much better under Castillo in Kubes system and maybe some pointers from Dennison. Everyone should be on the same page so even if he's hearing more then one voice, it's the same message.

 

Actually GIno struggled to command the line.   Yanda basically did it for him @ the later part of the season b/c of that.

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Pierce does remind me somewhat of Arian Foster in that they're both slashing runners. I think it's only a positive for Pierce.

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Yea I think some of that is the fault of the system and some the fault of Gino. McKinnie said when he left that Castillo's offense required a lot of thinking. It's tough to ask a young player to think more. You usually want young players to think less and just play. But Gino was asked to not only think for himself but also think for the entire oline as well. I think he'll be much better under Castillo in Kubes system and maybe some pointers from Dennison. Everyone should be on the same page so even if he's hearing more then one voice, it's the same message.

yeah, totally agree...nothing better than every1 on the same page.....

 

Gary will bring the best out of our players....

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If Pierce can stay healthy, I fully expect him to be a lot more explosive in Kubiak's system. As others have stated, Pierce is a lot like Foster in that they're both "one cut and go" guys. Should be fun!

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Actually GIno struggled to command the line.   Yanda basically did it for him @ the later part of the season b/c of that.

Not sure what you mean by command the line. Yanda was making the calls and recognitions for Gino because Gino didn't see it at all, if that's what you mean.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read this system is based less on reading the hole and more on just hitting the line, almost like man blocking. This could bode well for Rice who showed limited vision

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Not sure what you mean by command the line. Yanda was making the calls and recognitions for Gino because Gino didn't see it at all, if that's what you mean.

Yep.. thats what i meant... thanks

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As was Yanda's and he's an all pro player. The oline as a unit struggled last year and I for one think it's unfair to judge what Gino can or can't be off one season where everything about him was poor or below standards as well.

Also think about this. Wade Smith was a career journeyman before he got into Kubes system 4 years, so I wouldn't be so quick to write off Gino. Just wait and see what he can improve upon first.

All I'm saying is, there has to be a plan B this year. We can't afford to put all are eggs into one basket. Another way to possibly make him better would be, Solid competition. Not AQ. Shipley! Lol

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Since Kubiak stated in the PC that he will be putting a Ravens offense on the field and will be looking at the strengths of each player, things will get shaken up every where. However, I think that it could be that he will adjust his system to fit with our good/great players such as Joe, Rice, Torrey, Dennis and Marlon (possibly even Jacoby). He is not going to try to fit square pegs into round holes. As to whether Peirce will do better, lets just wait and see how it all shakes out. I believe that Pierce's skills will work better at sometimes but Rice will still play a strong role in the running game with some plays designed around his strengths.

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Actually GIno struggled to command the line.   Yanda basically did it for him @ the later part of the season b/c of that.

Right that was because Gino just wasn't comfortable making those calls imo. Birk said the hardest thing for him to adjust to as a young Center was line calls and adjustments. Depending on the system and how it's coached that could be really tough. I'm not saying this system will turn Gino into a great Center but I think he'll be much more comfortable and sure of himself in year 2. Still think he should compete for the job though.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read this system is based less on reading the hole and more on just hitting the line, almost like man blocking. This could bode well for Rice who showed limited vision

No it definitely takes vision. Even though the cut back is a huge part, you have to be able to read the blocks of you guys. Often times a "hole" isn't actually created. The oline flows in one direction and the RB has to read the FB and oline for that opening or cut back.

Rice doesn't have great vision but his vision is plenty good for success in this system or any other. I actually worry about his paitence more then his vision. When Leach first got here and we started implementing this zone, Vontae had to tell Rice plenty of times just stick with me. Even Ray Lewis often would have to tell Rice to stay with his FB, because Ray would want to cut back too quick. So some of that is vision, but it's more about him just being paitent enough to allow things to develop. I think both Rice and BP should have big years if the oline comes together.

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No it definitely takes vision. Even though the cut back is a huge part, you have to be able to read the blocks of you guys. Often times a "hole" isn't actually created. The oline flows in one direction and the RB has to read the FB and oline for that opening or cut back.

Rice doesn't have great vision but his vision is plenty good for success in this system or any other. I actually worry about his paitence more then his vision. When Leach first got here and we started implementing this zone, Vontae had to tell Rice plenty of times just stick with me. Even Ray Lewis often would have to tell Rice to stay with his FB, because Ray would want to cut back too quick. So some of that is vision, but it's more about him just being paitent enough to allow things to develop. I think both Rice and BP should have big years if the oline comes together.

I know how the zone blocking scheme works, but I had read somewhere that Kubiak's system was more react, not read. That's why I asked.

Trust me, I hate that Rice isn't patient. That's a big reason I love Pierce - if he doesn't see something, he will wait for something to develop. Rice just goes full steam ahead no matter what.

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if pierce stays healthy, he will explode onto the scene with a fully functioning ZBS stretch scheme. if you watch arian foster in kubes system, on the successful run plays, he made the 1 cut upfield, and wasnt touched until he reached the secondary half the time. linebackers and DT's bounce off of pierce like a tennis ball, if he reaches the defensive backfield on a regular basis, he wont be stopped. i said his whole rookie year after he started getting regular carries "this guy does NOT go down on the first hit" and i literally cannot recall him in a 1v1 open field situation where someone successfully tackled him. thats the kind of guy you want for this system

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I know how the zone blocking scheme works, but I had read somewhere that Kubiak's system was more react, not read. That's why I asked.

Trust me, I hate that Rice isn't patient. That's a big reason I love Pierce - if he doesn't see something, he will wait for something to develop. Rice just goes full steam ahead no matter what.

the crazy thing about that is, when he was younger he got tons of praise heaped on him regarding his patience behind the LOS. i see whatur saying though he just did a complete 180 last season

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I had the thought that Pierce could see big improvement in this system, but he has to run like he did his rookie season make one- cut and go. Sometimes this year he went side to side often similar to Rice.

Pierce may need to work on conditioning, and taking care of his body, because he seems to have nagging injuries that lasts week to week.

I'd like to see Ray Rice lose a few pounds because he just doesn't have the balance that he had earlier in his career. He's put on weight and muscle but he breaks less tackles and constantly fall with minimal contact.

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Right that was because Gino just wasn't comfortable making those calls imo. Birk said the hardest thing for him to adjust to as a young Center was line calls and adjustments. Depending on the system and how it's coached that could be really tough. I'm not saying this system will turn Gino into a great Center but I think he'll be much more comfortable and sure of himself in year 2. Still think he should compete for the job though.

Hopefully he'll have better competition than he did last offseason.

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I don't think this is necessarily true.  I think Pierce has more power to break through bad blocking that Rice, and that's why he was a marginally better running back this year.  But lets not kid ourselves, both running backs performed terribly this year (though it really wasn't their fault).

 

Rice needs good primary blocks to get off the line, and then uses his elusiveness to force missed tackles up the field for big gains.  Pierce is more of a power rusher and has the ability to get yards even when the blocking scheme completely breaks down (which it did on a vast majority of running plays this year).

 

I hate all of the talk that Rice is done (not saying you said this The Raven).  Yes, he had a bad year, but Pierce had a bad year as well.  I think next year, with a large improvement in our ZBS, our running game will be back on track.

 

Oh ,yeah, I know Rice isn't done, and I was just exaggerating the point. Rice has a tendency to dance before hitting the hole, while Pierce is more of a no nonsense, one cut and go kind of back. Based on what Kubiak said about his running backs needing to get downhill, I think Pierce is his guy. I do think Rice will get his carries though. I think this is the year we see him transition to more of a third down and receiving back role, and that's the best way to both extend his career and utilize his skills to the max.

 

I agree Peirce clearly has better vision then Rice from what I see. I think this system fits him perfectly and it'll be huge for his career. The heath concern is a issue because of his running style, but I expect to see a lot more production from BP. He's the future of this backfield and this offense fits his skills to a T. Rice will still be productive though.

I'll tell yo someone else who probably benefits greatly from this system and the hire of Kubiak probably saved his career....Gino G. Kubiak and Dennison turned a 6'4 285lbs Center into a all pro in this sytem. Now yes, Chris Myers is worlds better then Gino right now, but if Gino can take to this system and learn to play with more Leverage, he can certianly thrive in this system.

 

Gino needs to get in the weight room and get stronger, and he needs to start using his athleticism more, but yeah, this system is ideal for him. Chris Myers, although small, is stronger than most centers in the league. Gino needs to add serious muscle, and he really needs to develop his core strength. Myers has a strong core, and that's really key to two things: A strong core helps linemen anchor, and it gives you more balance/strength in the ZBS where the first step isn't always forward. 

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I think this system will help both Rice and Pierce and will make Pierce more of a feature back and Rice as the third down and passing situation.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read this system is based less on reading the hole and more on just hitting the line, almost like man blocking. This could bode well for Rice who showed limited vision

 

In this system, the back is given an aiming point. The two main plays are inside zone and outside zone. On inside zone, the aiming point is the outside leg of the guard. Then, the running back reads the helmet of the defender. If the helmet of the DT crosses the RG's outside shoulder, he cuts to the A. If it's on the inside, he stays on track in the B gap.

 

On outside zone, the aiming point is the outside leg of the end man on the LOS, usually the TE. He reads the last defender on the LOS. If the DE crosses the TE/T's face, he keeps the run outside. If the DE gets around the edge, he cuts into the B or C gap. 

 

Basically, it's less about reading gaps and more about reading players. The basic principle behind it is Lombardi's old adage "Run to daylight."

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Oh ,yeah, I know Rice isn't done, and I was just exaggerating the point. Rice has a tendency to dance before hitting the hole, while Pierce is more of a no nonsense, one cut and go kind of back. Based on what Kubiak said about his running backs needing to get downhill, I think Pierce is his guy. I do think Rice will get his carries though. I think this is the year we see him transition to more of a third down and receiving back role, and that's the best way to both extend his career and utilize his skills to the max.

 

 

Gino needs to get in the weight room and get stronger, and he needs to start using his athleticism more, but yeah, this system is ideal for him. Chris Myers, although small, is stronger than most centers in the league. Gino needs to add serious muscle, and he really needs to develop his core strength. Myers has a strong core, and that's really key to two things: A strong core helps linemen anchor, and it gives you more balance/strength in the ZBS where the first step isn't always forward.

Oh I definitely think Gino needs work. His strenght is the biggest concern. Much like you said about Myers, it's not about getting bigger moreso just getting stronger. I just think this system is a great fit for Gino and without it probably would have been nothing more then a journeyman probably. I think being in his 3rd season should allow him to not think as much and just allow his abilities to show.

Hopefully he'll have better competition than he did last offseason.

I'm thinking maybe Wade Smith. He isn't great, but he really took to Kubiak's system and also has experience as a Center. He already knows the system and how Kubes wants it blocked up. He could be good competition for Gino and insurance for KO. Might be a nice stopgap player.

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In this system, the back is given an aiming point. The two main plays are inside zone and outside zone. On inside zone, the aiming point is the outside leg of the guard. Then, the running back reads the helmet of the defender. If the helmet of the DT crosses the RG's outside shoulder, he cuts to the A. If it's on the inside, he stays on track in the B gap.

 

On outside zone, the aiming point is the outside leg of the end man on the LOS, usually the TE. He reads the last defender on the LOS. If the DE crosses the TE/T's face, he keeps the run outside. If the DE gets around the edge, he cuts into the B or C gap. 

 

Basically, it's less about reading gaps and more about reading players. The basic principle behind it is Lombardi's old adage "Run to daylight."

Refer to what I said above to Ravensfan23. Something I read just threw me off
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I know how the zone blocking scheme works, but I had read somewhere that Kubiak's system was more react, not read. That's why I asked.

Trust me, I hate that Rice isn't patient. That's a big reason I love Pierce - if he doesn't see something, he will wait for something to develop. Rice just goes full steam ahead no matter what.

 

Well, the job of a back is to read and react in this scheme. You have to read the keys and then react. 

 

Now, Kubiak's scheme asks the linemen to do more attacking than reacting, which gives it the advantage over Castillo's. 

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They are probably the best duo backs in the league and Gary will prove that hypothesis. Rice gaining weight lost his elusiveness which was his trademark back in 08. If Rice can get back to his considered weight and Pierce staying healthy, we are looking at the best ground attack that we all have envisioned awhile ago...

Assuming we have a better oline.

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Well, the job of a back is to read and react in this scheme. You have to read the keys and then react. 

 

Now, Kubiak's scheme asks the linemen to do more attacking than reacting, which gives it the advantage over Castillo's.

Now that you say that, I think I read it about the lineman, not the running backs.

Thanks for clearing that up

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Right that was because Gino just wasn't comfortable making those calls imo. Birk said the hardest thing for him to adjust to as a young Center was line calls and adjustments. Depending on the system and how it's coached that could be really tough. I'm not saying this system will turn Gino into a great Center but I think he'll be much more comfortable and sure of himself in year 2. Still think he should compete for the job though.

 

It'll be his 3rd year actually but i see your point.  Not like we have much of a choice.  I'd still would want to draft a high caliber center though.  Im thinking a guy like Tyler Larsen or another center @ 4th round.

 

Gino never really had any upside and it was going to be a steep climb for him.   I feel like Gino is another case of 'overlooking' a small school player for so long that FO eventually warmed up to him to draft him high.  A-la Jah Reid/Oniel Cousins  

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Pierce had rotator cuff surgery today. 4-5 months rehab. tweet from Aaron Wilson.

Damn that sucks. Hope it's a speedy recovery.
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With Pierce recovering and Rice on the potential decline, I think it's pretty likely that we draft a back in the mid rounds or sign a FA back. 

 

I know it sounds unlikely to draft a back now, but I don't think many people saw it coming when we drafted Rice in the second or Pierce in the third. Based on Ozzie's past, I think it's likely we get a back around the mid rounds. 

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