Are the Ravens going back to a run-first team?

[gooftroop]

And people will be biting on Flacco's play fakes if we can actually run the ball. That's what our passing game was based on the first 3 years with Cam. So Joe can defiantly thrive in that system provided we can run the ball.

And who are all theses weapons we drafted for Flacco?!? Torrey and Pitta?!? Sounds like a rant to me.

 

A year after signing Flacco to a huge contract basically stating "he is the man, he is our offensive leader.... the Ravens sign an offensive coordinator who built his offense around a stron running game using the fullback position more than most.

I have no idea what the Ravens are doing.  I'm not sure they know what they want to do.  They went out and drafted a bunch of receivers for Flacco.... and now it appears they will be trying to go back to a running-first offense with Kubiak.

Ravens looked to be completely done with Leach, and now it looks like they will be keeping him around.  Those dollars take away money to help rebuild the offensive line that everyone blamed this past season.

And does anyone EVER believe a play-fake that Flacco runs?  That's kind of a big part of Kubiaks offense.  I haven't seen Flacco sell a fake that's even half believable

People immediately say "Texans had a top 5 offense 3 out of the last 5 years.... but don't look at everything else.

I guess the positive is... they got this done relatively early.  And the offense can't really go anywhere but up, right?

We've only taken one receiver in the first three rounds in the six years Flacco's been here. Does that sound like loading up for Joe has been job #1? Fact is we've concentrated on finding gems in the later rounds, and haven't even come close on any of them.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

1. Sorry, there were no holes to be found this season. It's not easy to make your own holes anymore. It's completely on the line to create "daylight." Go tell Vince Lombardi that it's not completely up to the line to open a hole and see what he says. Well, what do you think he would have said? Moreover, it's not easy to just cut back to a random hole on the other side. If it's an outside hand off to the right side, do you expect him to cut it back all the way left in the hopes that there might be a hole when he gets there? Not exactly how it works all the time. Sometimes you'll break big plays like that, but most of the time, you just get hit for a loss. There's a very good reason that must good running backs (AP, Lynch, etc) just stick to the hole and the primary cut backs lanes. That's just how it works. It's on the line to open holes. Otherwise, it wouldn't be there. Otherwise, Rice and Pierce might have had a better season. Otherwise, the Broncos wouldn't have had so much success with no name backs in the 90s and early 2000s. That's the whole reason the line blocks, isn't it? To open holes?

 

2: Leron McClain was not a great runner. Sure he was big but he's not even close to great, and he's an average fullback at best.

 

3: I don't think Juice will be getting very many carries.

 

1. Sorry but your ignorance of Vince Lombardi's "run to daylight" philosophy is showing! Lombardi created holes on the offensive line by spreading his offensive guards from the center. He brought his innovative thinking to the Pros from Fordham U. It lead to the abandonment of the odd man defensive line and the nose tackle.  

 

2. Your average fullback Laron McClain played in the playoffs this year against Denver.

 

3. I think you're wrong about Jucyk. He's perfectly suited for Kubiak's offense, especially if Vonta Leach leaves and it makes very little sense to keep both of them. As much as I like Vonta, it makes no sense to carry a FB who only gets three snaps a game like the Detroit game. Hmmm, maybe that's one of the reasons we scored zero as in nada TDs in that game!

[The Raven]

1. Sorry but your ignorance of Vince Lombardi's "run to daylight" philosophy is showing! Lombardi created holes on the offensive line by spreading his offensive guards from the center. He brought his innovative thinking to the Pros from Fordham U. It lead to the abandonment of the odd man defensive line and the nose tackle.  

 

2. Your average fullback Laron McClain played in the playoffs this year against Denver.

 

3. I think you're wrong about Jucyk. He's perfectly suited for Kubiak's offense, especially if Vonta Leach leaves and it makes very little sense to keep both of them. As much as I like Vonta, it makes no sense to carry a FB who only gets three snaps a game like the Detroit game. Hmmm, maybe that's one of the reasons we scored zero as in nada TDs in that game!

 

1. What? How does that show my ignorance? I'm quite aware of what he did, lol. What do you think the Lombardi sweep was designed to do? Not create daylight? I'm unsure of what you mean here. I'm merely suggesting that Lombardi would put the responsibility of making holes on the line. I've read a biography on him. The "run to daylight" philosophy was basically the earliest zone blocking scheme where the RB would aim for a zone where the play was designed and then run to daylight.

 

"So Tom Landry devised the 4-3 to clog the running lanes and improve the pass-defense. Did Lombardi invent anything?

He coined the phrase, “Run to Daylight.” What we didn’t know then was how that phrase would be applied to football in the 21st century. In Lombardi’s “Run to Daylight” philosophy, the back aimed for a zone where the blocking was concentrated, and then he would run to where he saw daylight, instead of hitting a pre-designated spot, which was the norm in design up to that point. The Packers’ off-tackle slant, for example, might see Jim Taylor hit the guard hole. This is the fundamental philosophy of the zone-blocking scheme of today. The line walls off the defense as it slides right or left, and then the back cuts back behind the wall and runs to daylight." from http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/ask-vic/article-1/Lombardi-invented-philosophy-Run-to-Daylight/7ff7f21c-2316-4bdd-b158-5db7dd2ac63f 

2. Big whoop. Terrence Cody has a SB ring but he still sucks

3. I said Juice wouldn't get a lot of carries, not that he wouldn't play. Moreover, we didn't score TDs against Detroit because of the line..... I mean cmon. Having a fullback in wasn't doing us any good and our YPC average actually increased after we started using more singleback sets

[frozen joe flacco fan]

1. What? How does that show my ignorance? I'm quite aware of what he did, lol. What do you think the Lombardi sweep was designed to do? Not create daylight? I'm unsure of what you mean here. I'm merely suggesting that Lombardi would put the responsibility of making holes on the line. I've read a biography on him. The "run to daylight" philosophy was basically the earliest zone blocking scheme where the RB would aim for a zone where the play was designed and then run to daylight.

 

"So Tom Landry devised the 4-3 to clog the running lanes and improve the pass-defense. Did Lombardi invent anything?

He coined the phrase, “Run to Daylight.” What we didn’t know then was how that phrase would be applied to football in the 21st century. In Lombardi’s “Run to Daylight” philosophy, the back aimed for a zone where the blocking was concentrated, and then he would run to where he saw daylight, instead of hitting a pre-designated spot, which was the norm in design up to that point. The Packers’ off-tackle slant, for example, might see Jim Taylor hit the guard hole. This is the fundamental philosophy of the zone-blocking scheme of today. The line walls off the defense as it slides right or left, and then the back cuts back behind the wall and runs to daylight." from http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/ask-vic/article-1/Lombardi-invented-philosophy-Run-to-Daylight/7ff7f21c-2316-4bdd-b158-5db7dd2ac63f 

2. Big whoop. Terrence Cody has a SB ring but he still sucks

3. I said Juice wouldn't get a lot of carries, not that he wouldn't play. Moreover, we didn't score TDs against Detroit because of the line..... I mean cmon. Having a fullback in wasn't doing us any good and our YPC average actually increased after we started using more singleback sets

 

The quote from the Packers website is interesting. Tom Landry was probably as familiar with Vince Lombardi's zone blocking schemes as anyone given that they were the DC and OC, respectively, for the NY Football Giants in the '58 Championship Game against our beloved Colts. I'm not sure what the author's point is but, suffice it say, Vince Lombardi's innovative thinking about offensive line play and creating holes greatly influenced Tom Landry and other DCs to abandon the 5-2 defensive formation in favor of the 4-3 defense. The nose tackle position became obsolete and the middle linebacker position evolved. Its also interesting that Tom Landry also designed the Dallas Flex Defense to counter Vince Lombardi's running plays. The writer of the quote you used seems to give all of the credit for devising the 4-3 defense to Landry when it is absolutely clear that Vince Lombardi forced the NFL's DCs to change their defensive line formations to defend against his offensive blocking schemes. When he originally suggested implementing his offensive line with wider spaces between the center and guards, the NFL said it would never work. You probably recall that from his biography. I guess where we differ in our thinking is how the holes are created and the answer is they are created by the offensive linemen through their blocking schemes and by their spacing when they take their stances, e.g., tighter or wider.  

[Ravenseconbeast]

We've only taken one receiver in the first three rounds in the six years Flacco's been here. Does that sound like loading up for Joe has been job #1? Fact is we've concentrated on finding gems in the later rounds, and haven't even come close on any of them.

 

Is that so much to blame though??  We've always put plenty of talent around Flacco to succeed.   Boldin,Mason, Matt Birk, McKinnie, Jacoby.    Protection + Solid receivers.   I would say Boldin/Mason + Torrey with Ray Rice(Mcgahee/Leron/Leach) +Pitta and solid Oline FA acquisition were more than adequate...

 

While we didn't draft young receivers, we were in it to win now.   You can argue grooming a WR early in draft is a lot more riskier than grabbing a solid WR like Boldin to help Flacco.   Now that our cap is strapped, we are sure to draft a young receiver early.   You can be sure of that.

[JoeyFlex5]

That's why you get paid the big bucks. You're the expert! Let's see. How many big games did Ray Rice or Bernard Pierce have last year. In the two games you cited, Bobby Rainey's production exceeded Ray's and Bernard's together. But you are right. I'm  looking for a back like Marshon Lynch. I don't care if he doesn't like to talk to media as long as he runs over, under, around and through the defense, especially down near the goal line. It would also be nice if he could throw a block now and then to keep his QB clean. So, I'll take being really sick in two games over sorry for an entire season, which is what our backs were.

ok so if thats your logic then you must want bernard scott more than ray rice because he actually did something against cinci in week 17. do you not understand that 2 fluke games do not make him a better back than either of ours? lets see what bobby rainey wouldve done with our o-line, we wouldve been calling for his head halfway through the season if he was getting carries for us

[Bruce_Almty]

gooftroop, on 30 Jan 2014 - 8:25 PM, said:

We've only taken one receiver in the first three rounds in the six years Flacco's been here. Does that sound like loading up for Joe has been job #1? Fact is we've concentrated on finding gems in the later rounds, and haven't even come close on any of them.

Fortunately, the Ravens had Jim Hostler on staff to develop all that raw talent for Joe.  lol

[gooftroop]

Is that so much to blame though??  We've always put plenty of talent around Flacco to succeed.   Boldin,Mason, Matt Birk, McKinnie, Jacoby.    Protection + Solid receivers.   I would say Boldin/Mason + Torrey with Ray Rice(Mcgahee/Leron/Leach) +Pitta and solid Oline FA acquisition were more than adequate...

 

While we didn't draft young receivers, we were in it to win now.   You can argue grooming a WR early in draft is a lot more riskier than grabbing a solid WR like Boldin to help Flacco.   Now that our cap is strapped, we are sure to draft a young receiver early.   You can be sure of that.

I don't see one serviceable receiver in six drafts as a win, especially when we weren't exactly hitting home runs in lieu of.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Fortunately, the Ravens had Jim Hostler on staff to develop all that raw talent for Joe.  lol

 

some panned out(Torrey, Marlon) some didn't(Doss)  I feel like Hostler has done a 'serviceable' job.   Not sure why his getting so much hate.  He was primarily assigned w/ veterans and to help them maintain their productivity.

[riverrat]

you have faith on our coaching staff and front office . they know more than any of us will ever know about this game. we just won a SB last year ! play action will help joe how often did you see it last year

[Ravenslifer]

Is that so much to blame though??  We've always put plenty of talent around Flacco to succeed.   Boldin,Mason, Matt Birk, McKinnie, Jacoby.    Protection + Solid receivers.   I would say Boldin/Mason + Torrey with Ray Rice(Mcgahee/Leron/Leach) +Pitta and solid Oline FA acquisition were more than adequate...

 

While we didn't draft young receivers, we were in it to win now.   You can argue grooming a WR early in draft is a lot more riskier than grabbing a solid WR like Boldin to help Flacco.   Now that our cap is strapped, we are sure to draft a young receiver early.   You can be sure of that.

 

Boldin and Mason played 1 year together. Neither Torrey nor Pitta ever played with Mason, Heap, McGahee or McClain, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that argument.  The best talent we ever had around Joe was Boldin + Mason + Heap + Rice in 2010 because of the experience, followed by Boldin + Rice +Smith + Pitta last year, again because of talent plus experience, but the last two were still in their second year in the league.  You can't just pick any player that ever played for the Ravens and say "see, we had all this talent around" if they never played together.  That's like saying Kaepernick should be putting up monster numbers because Jerry Rice once played for the 9ers.

[The Raven]

Boldin and Mason played 1 year together. Neither Torrey nor Pitta ever played with Mason, Heap, McGahee or McClain, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that argument.  The best talent we ever had around Joe was Boldin + Mason + Heap + Rice in 2010 because of the experience, followed by Boldin + Rice +Smith + Pitta last year, again because of talent plus experience, but the last two were still in their second year in the league.  You can't just pick any player that ever played for the Ravens and say "see, we had all this talent around" if they never played together.  That's like saying Kaepernick should be putting up moster numbers because Jerry Rice once played for the 9ers.

 

You also can't use all those players in an argument without noting how none of them were utilized properly by the OC.

[BloodRaven]

You also can't use all those players in an argument without noting how none of them were utilized properly by the OC.

 

This is true, we have talent at skill positions but they're not going to achieve anything if they're not used correctly. That means an offensive line that gives them opportunities and smart play calling.

[gooftroop]

Boldin and Mason played 1 year together. Neither Torrey nor Pitta ever played with Mason, Heap, McGahee or McClain, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that argument.  The best talent we ever had around Joe was Boldin + Mason + Heap + Rice in 2010 because of the experience, followed by Boldin + Rice +Smith + Pitta last year, again because of talent plus experience, but the last two were still in their second year in the league.  You can't just pick any player that ever played for the Ravens and say "see, we had all this talent around" if they never played together.  That's like saying Kaepernick should be putting up monster numbers because Jerry Rice once played for the 9ers.

Well, you will if you're more concerned with winning an argument than making a valid point.

[izvoodoo]

We've only taken one receiver in the first three rounds in the six years Flacco's been here. Does that sound like loading up for Joe has been job #1? Fact is we've concentrated on finding gems in the later rounds, and haven't even come close on any of them.

Well...

Marlon Brown

[Ravenseconbeast]

Boldin and Mason played 1 year together. Neither Torrey nor Pitta ever played with Mason, Heap, McGahee or McClain, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that argument.  The best talent we ever had around Joe was Boldin + Mason + Heap + Rice in 2010 because of the experience, followed by Boldin + Rice +Smith + Pitta last year, again because of talent plus experience, but the last two were still in their second year in the league.  You can't just pick any player that ever played for the Ravens and say "see, we had all this talent around" if they never played together.  That's like saying Kaepernick should be putting up monster numbers because Jerry Rice once played for the 9ers.

All i was stating was that flacco had plenty of talent around him to produce. Not sure why you had to twist the words to point out that specific plaers didnt play together.

I had to laugh a little when you made a comparison of kaep/jerry rice. But hey...

[Ravenslifer]

All i was stating was that flacco had plenty of talent around him to produce. Not sure why you had to twist the words to point out that specific plaers didnt play together.

I had to laugh a little when you made a comparison of kaep/jerry rice. But hey...

 

You said that he's always had adequate receivers - I said they never played together.  2008-2009 - Mason, Clayton, Heap; 2010 Mason, Boldin Heap - Joe's best season; 2011 Boldin, rookie Torrey, first year starter Pitta; 2012 - Boldin, Torrey, Pitta, Joe's second best season, 2013 - Torrey, rookie Marlon, Dallas Clark.  You rattled off McKinnie, Mason, and Birk when they never played together - McKinnie got here in 2011 after Mason had left.  Yes at points we've had several good pieces, but you're trying to act like because we had some good pieces at various times, but never together, that Joe has always been surrounded by an adequate supporting cast.  When that's hardly ever been the case.  What talent was on this team last year?  Torrey, and that was really it - Clark is finished, Marlon has quite a bit of work to do.  What about 2011 - Torrey made a lot of mistakes his rookie year, and Lee Evans got hurt very early on, not to mention Pitta and Dickson had exactly zero starts between them.  What about 2008-2009 with Demetrius Williams always hurt, Mark Clayton, and journeymen receivers filling in the spots?  The talent has never fully been there - when the passing game was working, the run game fell short.  We had one of the worst rushing games in the last 20 years this past season, and no I don't believe in the nonsense that poor passing equals poor rushing - MJD has had poor passing games to work with his entire career, and has been just fine.  We have always been a team built on running the football, and when we can't run, we struggle.  To suddenly have the league's worst running game by a fair margin and expect the quarterback to carry the load minus his top 2 targets from last year, working with a rookie and 2 35 year old receivers, makes no sense.

 

So I ask you again, explain to me how in all 6 years of his career, Joe has had adequate receivers, and should therefore be able to compensate for the league's worst rushing attack this past season?

[Ravenseconbeast]

You said that he's always had adequate receivers - I said they never played together.  2008-2009 - Mason, Clayton, Heap; 2010 Mason, Boldin Heap - Joe's best season; 2011 Boldin, rookie Torrey, first year starter Pitta; 2012 - Boldin, Torrey, Pitta, Joe's second best season, 2013 - Torrey, rookie Marlon, Dallas Clark.  You rattled off McKinnie, Mason, and Birk when they never played together - McKinnie got here in 2011 after Mason had left.  Yes at points we've had several good pieces, but you're trying to act like because we had some good pieces at various times, but never together, that Joe has always been surrounded by an adequate supporting cast.  When that's hardly ever been the case.  What talent was on this team last year?  Torrey, and that was really it - Clark is finished, Marlon has quite a bit of work to do.  What about 2011 - Torrey made a lot of mistakes his rookie year, and Lee Evans got hurt very early on, not to mention Pitta and Dickson had exactly zero starts between them.  What about 2008-2009 with Demetrius Williams always hurt, Mark Clayton, and journeymen receivers filling in the spots?  The talent has never fully been there - when the passing game was working, the run game fell short.  We had one of the worst rushing games in the last 20 years this past season, and no I don't believe in the nonsense that poor passing equals poor rushing - MJD has had poor passing games to work with his entire career, and has been just fine.  We have always been a team built on running the football, and when we can't run, we struggle.  To suddenly have the league's worst running game by a fair margin and expect the quarterback to carry the load minus his top 2 targets from last year, working with a rookie and 2 35 year old receivers, makes no sense.

 

Most of those players played together.  The very few you mentioned above that you nitpicked (mason/boldin) has played for just 1 year.   The cast around Flacco has always been adequate before last season.    Its a solid proof that he can't do much without a solid cast.   

I have a feeling anything i say won't change your opinion on how you view flacco, so i suggest you don't either.   We already argued about flacco probably 100x times already.

[Ravenslifer]

Most of those players played together.  The very few you mentioned above that you nitpicked (mason/boldin) has played for just 1 year.   The cast around Flacco has always been adequate before last season.    Its a solid proof that he can't do much without a solid cast.   

I have a feeling anything i say won't change your opinion on how you view flacco, so i suggest you don't either.   We already argued about flacco probably 100x times already.

 

No they did not.  Only 1 players from Joe's first three years year played with him the last 3 years - Rice.  It seems like you tried to make the case that because Joe at one point had Derrick Mason and now has Torrey Smith, that constitutes 6 years worth of a solid supporting cast.  We've had a constant revolving door of passing targets - no team in the league with a good passing game has done that.  Joe's always needed a solid running game, yes, but why is that a bad thing?

 

And I'm not arguing about the quarterback - I'm arguing about the fact that in a complete offense, there are plenty of good to great players, and no one player deserves all the credit or all the blame.  This year, we could not run the ball, we had poor pass catching targets, and nobody had ever played together.  When the Ravens offense was at its best, it was not run-first or pass first, it was balanced, and that's something we had little of this season.  The quarterback deserves his fair share of the blame, but so does everyone else - it's seems that you can only see one player's flaws and constantly act like if that one position was better, everything else would be fine.

[Ravenseconbeast]

No they did not.  Only 1 players from Joe's first three years year played with him the last 3 years 

 

Nitpicking again.   Why do i even bother talking..

[gooftroop]

Well...

Marlon Brown

FA, not a draft pick.

[gooftroop]

Nitpicking again.   Why do i even bother talking..

Good question.