Baltimore Sun article: To fix Ravens offense, Joe Flacco must fix himself?

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

based on what do you come to this conclusion?

 

The fact that our offense putting up 30 points per game is what won us the superbowl last year.80 percent of the teams on our schedule in a given year wouldn't be able to keep up with the way Joe would play with that supporting cast.Think about it,there's only about 6 or 7 qbs in the league who can handle being put in a 2 td deficit and still win the game.Having a qb like Joe is such a huge advantage yet we'd still rather see where having a talented defense and just enough offense gets us.As long as we have a good qb,no matter who it is,offense should always be the strength of the team.All I'm saying is,we're doing ourselves a dis service by not beefing up the talented around Joe.Denver had plenty of offensive threats but they still signed Welker and look where that got them.We already had Boldin,Torrey and Pitta but we still signed Jones as a 3rd wr and look where that got us.

[Tru11]

It's that kind of ridiculous statement that keeps these stupid Flacco arguments going on and on and on.

 

its the believe that people think its a ridiculous statement that made me argue about it.

 

but no more though.

 

i officially give up.

 

when flacco breaks the records peyton just set this season then you can all feel free to put up any thread to make fun of me or rub it into my face.

ill be a good sport i promise.

[berad]

its the believe that people think its a ridiculous statement that made me argue about it.

 

but no more though.

 

i officially give up.

 

when flacco breaks the records peyton just set this season then you can all feel free to put up any thread to make fun of me or rub it into my face.

ill be a good sport i promise.

 

He's saying it's ridiculous because no one believes that. Peyton is a HOF QB, one of the best of all time, Flacco is a good QB in his own right but he is not Peyton Manning.

[Tru11]

The fact that our offense putting up 30 points per game is what won us the superbowl last year.80 percent of the teams on our schedule in a given year wouldn't be able to keep up with the way Joe would play with that supporting cast.Think about it,there's only about 6 or 7 qbs in the league who can handle being put in a 2 td deficit and still win the game.Having a qb like Joe is such a huge advantage yet we'd still rather see where having a talented defense and just enough offense gets us.As long as we have a good qb,no matter who it is,offense should always be the strength of the team.All I'm saying is,we're doing ourselves a dis service by not beefing up the talented around Joe.Denver had plenty of offensive threats but they still signed Welker and look where that got them.We already had Boldin,Torrey and Pitta but we still signed Jones as a 3rd wr and look where that got us.

 

them 30 points include defensive TD and special teams TD .......

its also only a 4 game stretch.

 

judging by 6 full regular seasons consisting of 16 games each (96 games) flacco avg 20 TD a season and 1.2 TD a game.

given the unceartainty with our new scheme and such i rather trust the bulk of the data and not a selected part.

 

havent even taken into account the 13 games in the post season but if i did flacco threw 18 TD in 13 games good for 1.3 TD per game.

 

again that 4 game stretch gives hope to flacco being on the brink of greatness.

 

the overall body of work does suggest he is getting better but he is not there yet.

 

TBH that 4 game stretch looks more like a fluke then a sign of consistency but hey if he proofs me wrong we all win right :D

[Tru11]

He's saying it's ridiculous because no one believes that. Peyton is a HOF QB, one of the best of all time, Flacco is a good QB in his own right but he is not Peyton Manning.

 

TXRavensFan

playlikeawhat

 

i was replying to those 2 .......

[TDubbs]

Our offense seems to be designed for Joe to hold on to the ball forever until the receiver completes a deep route, and if he hasn't been sacked by that time, to throw it into a tight window down the field.  Not to mention the lack of variation in the routes means we're highly dependent on play-action passing to disguise what we're trying to do.  

 

This right here is some Truth. I've found it extremely frustrating watching our WR's run constant deep routes that don't develop until 15+ yards. It's tough for a QB to hold on to the ball for that long while waiting for a guy to get open on low percentage deep balls. Thus, he took way too many hits this year.

 

Hiring the right OC will make or break this team for the next 5 years, I believe. Harbaugh needs to find the right guy, to bring his OWN system (not use the rotting carcass of the Cam Cameron system), and some creative play calling. (Kyle Shanahan has been my hope the second he was fired). 

 

Flacco doesn't need to be limited to a totally Vertical offense. We can run an offense where we can hit short/intermediate passes and let players make plays with calls designed to get guys open. Take your deep shots to keep the defense honest. 

[Ravenslifer]

This right here is some Truth. I've found it extremely frustrating watching our WR's run constant deep routes that don't develop until 15+ yards. It's tough for a QB to hold on to the ball for that long while waiting for a guy to get open on low percentage deep balls. Thus, he took way too many hits this year.

 

Hiring the right OC will make or break this team for the next 5 years, I believe. Harbaugh needs to find the right guy, to bring his OWN system (not use the rotting carcass of the Cam Cameron system), and some creative play calling. (Kyle Shanahan has been my hope the second he was fired). 

 

Flacco doesn't need to be limited to a totally Vertical offense. We can run an offense where we can hit short/intermediate passes and let players make plays with calls designed to get guys open. Take your deep shots to keep the defense honest. 

 

Exactly, and the biggest reason I think the short game will work is because it has worked, for Joe and these receivers, both in college and the pros.  The funny thing to me is that when Joe was coming out, people knew he had the arm strength but questioned if he could be a deep ball thrower because nobody knew what his accuracy would be like - he had a receiver and tight end in college that were a lot like Mase and Heap, so they did a lot of short passing in the spread system.  And when Torrey came out, all he was doing at Maryland was running hitches and bubble screens - people questioned if he really had the deep speed because all he ever did was catch short passes.  I've seen both of those guys have success at a short passing game, just not together - yet.

[Militant X 1]

Well the question is, does it matter?  Peyton is a once in a generation type QB.  It doesn't change the fact that, given the right system and coaching, Joe Flacco can be a better and more consistent quarterback, and lead the team to another Superbowl down the road, and maybe even make a probowl or two in his career.  Joe's being compared to Peyton and Brady, when people should be comparing him to the likes of Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers - guys who showed they can't succeed without the talent around them, but put the right talent and scheme around them and they put up big numbers.

 

To me it's about balance.  Flacco is compared to Peyton and Brady cause of the money.  My thought is this; "If you're getting paid like one of the big boys...then you need to play like the big boys!"  That doesn't mean to be perfect to me cause Brady just played like trash in the AFCCG.  But, it means consistency to me!  You are consistently putting your team in positions to be great!  Peyton seems to do that!  Look at his last season and this season with the Broncos.  Brady seems to do that!  Look at the Patriots last season with his "weapons" and this season without those "weapons". 

 

Although they didn't win it...they still reached the AFCCG again this year while Joe Flacco....without his "weapons" struggled mightily this season.  Peyton and Brady are better QB's than Flacco.  It's already been proven and Joe needs to not only elevate his personal game as the Ravens QB but also be instrumental in elevating the game of the talent that IS already around him (i.e. Torrey, Jacoby, Brown, Doss, Pitta, Dickson and Ray Rice).

 

#Mili

[TXRavensFan]

he did fine with that depleted o-line this season......

SB appearance and historic regular season seems  pretty good to me.

without Clady and Koppen on that o-line its pretty impressive....

 

Also with those colts teams you are right and the colts spend a lot on getting talented receivers but what most forget is that the defense got robbed of that talent.

If the colts wanted to win , manning had to be manning or they would loose.

NO run game or NO top rated defense to carry any load for that team.

 

Are you sure that flacco can do the same for the ravens?

I dont think we can win with everything on the shoulders of flacco.

i do think we can win if stop trying to force him to be like manning and just let him be flacco.

 

BTW i do think Peyton can turn torrey smith in an All Pro.

He worked wonders with Decker and DThomas, Julius Thomas and Knowshawn Moreno.....

if you want i can bring in their stats prior to manning and now with manning to proof my point....

 

My remarks were general, not about Flacco. But since you brought him up, like any good QB, you give him a weapon and system geared to his strengths, and he'll flourish.

 

Regarding Manning's line this year, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who claims they were bad, even with the injuries, which speaks to the talent and depth on their O-line, and supports my argument.

 

Back to the Colts teams, your points support my argument, they basically surrounded Peyton with the types of weapons to run a system designed for him to excel. It's no surprise Painter didn't fair well (almost like asking Tyrod to run the Air Coryell) in a system and with personnel suited to another QB's game.

 

Regarding Torrey, I think he could be an all-pro here with a system that is geared to Flacco's strenth, and gets the ball to him on more than just go routes (wasn't he leading the league in yardage after the first quarter of the season because we we were getting the ball to him on a variety of routes?)

 

As for Peyton's weapons, didn't Tebow make the playoffs and win a game with those weapons? Then they what? Added more weapons in Welker and Ball, then Manning finally won a playoff game with them. I think their success this year has as much to do with their individual talents as Manning throwing them the ball.

[Ravenslifer]

To me it's about balance.  Flacco is compared to Peyton and Brady cause of the money.  

 

#Mili

 

Well that makes no sense to me - contract wise, Matt Ryan averages more than Joe does.  Jay Cutler and Tony Romo make 2 million less per year than Joe.  Stafford and Eli about 3.5 million less.  And ALL of them make more guaranteed money than Joe - even Matt Shaub has more guaranteed money on his deal than Joe.  Jay Cutler is making 6 million more overall and 20 million more guaranteed, and for all the hype about his big arm, he only has 1 4000 yard season which was 5 or 6 years ago now.  So how come Joe is the one people compare to Brady and Manning, while Ryan, who makes more both overall and guaranteed, or any of these other guys, are not?

[jazz1988]

look..flacco has never had a 4000 yard season or hit more than 24 touchdowns.

 

after 7 years I think that says enough. He cannot carry a team..we must make a team good enough to hide his flaws. That playoff run was a fluke. A great one, but still a fluke.

 

You can can basically say the same thing about Drew Brees when he was with the chargers also  Brees was playing in  the same offensive system( for five years ) Flacco is playing in and you know what once he was traded to the saints he reached that 4,000 passing yard mark and you should know  the rest from there.  

[Ravenslifer]

look..flacco has never had a 4000 yard season or hit more than 24 touchdowns.

 

after 7 years I think that says enough. He cannot carry a team..we must make a team good enough to hide his flaws. That playoff run was a fluke. A great one, but still a fluke.

 

Uh, what?  Joe hit 25 TDs in 2010, and he hit 3800 yards in 15 games in 2012 - he sat out over 3 quarters of the final game against Cincinatti, threw just 8 passes in that game.  Tyrod Taylor put up 150 yards passing in that game.  Joe would have easily eclipsed 4000 yards had he played the whole thing.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00.htm

 

There are a lot of measures of a quarterback, but arbitrary numbers like yards and TDs don't work.  Joe has had only 1 season where he's thrown for less than 3500 yards and 20 TDs - Ben Roethlisberger has 5 seasons doing that.  Is Roethlisberger suddenly a worse quarterback, less capable of carrying a team, than Joe Flacco?  Tom Brady had 1 4000 yard season and no 30 TD seasons his first 6 years as a starter.  Does that mean he wasn't needed for their three Superbowls?

[Ravenslifer]

its the believe that people think its a ridiculous statement that made me argue about it.

 

but no more though.

 

i officially give up.

 

when flacco breaks the records peyton just set this season then you can all feel free to put up any thread to make fun of me or rub it into my face.

ill be a good sport i promise.

 

There is nobody on this forum that thinks Flacco is or will ever be close to Peyton Manning.  That's just a cheap ploy floated by people who bash Flacco - they say everyone else thinks the sun shines out of Joe's backside, a strawman argument they use to attack him.  I challenge you, go back through every post of every "Flacco homer" for the last 6 years, and quote for me where anyone has ever said Joe is as good or will ever be as good as Peyton Manning.  That is simply not true.

[berad]

Uh, what?  Joe hit 25 TDs in 2010, and he hit 3800 yards in 15 games in 2012 - he sat out over 3 quarters of the final game against Cincinatti, threw just 8 passes in that game.  Tyrod Taylor put up 150 yards passing in that game.  Joe would have easily eclipsed 4000 yards had he played the whole thing.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00.htm

 

Also sat out most of the 4th quarter in the first game against the Bengals and the entire 4th against the Raiders that year.

 

The Ravens and Flacco showed people they didn't really care about personal stats (*cough Saints*) since year 1. They pulled Flacco when he was 3 yards away from his first 300yd game against the Jaguars.

 

As a fan, selfishly, I was disappointed - always want to see our guys set milestones and records. But, in the grand scheme, it doesn't change what the player can do.

[Ravenslifer]

Also sat out most of the 4th quarter in the first game against the Bengals and the entire 4th against the Raiders that year.

 

The Ravens and Flacco showed people they didn't really care about personal stats (*cough Saints*) since year 1. They pulled Flacco when he was 3 yards away from his first 300yd game against the Jaguars.

 

As a fan, selfishly, I was disappointed - always want to see our guys set milestones and records. But, in the grand scheme, it doesn't change what the player can do.

 

Yeah I never get the numbers game - by that logic, Matthew Stafford is a better quarterback than Aaron Rodgers because the last 3 seasons he's thrown for more yards than Rodgers, and his TD numbers are close with Rodgers for 2 of the 3 seasons.

[jazz1988]

To me it's about balance.  Flacco is compared to Peyton and Brady cause of the money.  My thought is this; "If you're getting paid like one of the big boys...then you need to play like the big boys!"  That doesn't mean to be perfect to me cause Brady just played like trash in the AFCCG.  But, it means consistency to me!  You are consistently putting your team in positions to be great!  Peyton seems to do that!  Look at his last season and this season with the Broncos.  Brady seems to do that!  Look at the Patriots last season with his "weapons" and this season without those "weapons". 

 

 

#Mili

 

 You say it about balance well Flacco doesn't play in a  offense that has consistent balance. You can't expect Flacco to play like the big boys when he constantly playing in  a offense that's really not meant for a quarterback like him to look like one of big boys especially when you have receivers that aren't big (6'3- 6'5") whom can make contested catches as well as make plays going deep(got to be a good route runner  if not big) .

[Tru11]

My remarks were general, not about Flacco. But since you brought him up, like any good QB, you give him a weapon and system geared to his strengths, and he'll flourish.

 

Regarding Manning's line this year, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who claims they were bad, even with the injuries, which speaks to the talent and depth on their O-line, and supports my argument.

 

Back to the Colts teams, your points support my argument, they basically surrounded Peyton with the types of weapons to run a system designed for him to excel. It's no surprise Painter didn't fair well (almost like asking Tyrod to run the Air Coryell) in a system and with personnel suited to another QB's game.

 

Regarding Torrey, I think he could be an all-pro here with a system that is geared to Flacco's strenth, and gets the ball to him on more than just go routes (wasn't he leading the league in yardage after the first quarter of the season because we we were getting the ball to him on a variety of routes?)

 

As for Peyton's weapons, didn't Tebow make the playoffs and win a game with those weapons? Then they what? Added more weapons in Welker and Ball, then Manning finally won a playoff game with them. I think their success this year has as much to do with their individual talents as Manning throwing them the ball.

 

so air croyell was not geared to flacco strenghts?

boldin, rice, mason , torrey , pitta  are no slouches so to say no weapons ......

 

are they really that talented or does it help they have a QB who understands defenses better then they do themselfs.

pretty sure any o-line can look good if the QB tell thems who they should account for and the QB probaly already has an idea on where to throw the ball.

it helps an o-line you know when the ball is already in the air before the receiver makes his cut.

its better then the QB waiting till the receiver is open before considering to throw the ball,

 

my point is the colts picked that scheme and did surround him with talent because he could do it and he did proof them right.

they sacrificed the defense and the running game to accomplish that.

 

do you trully think the ravens can make those same sacrifices and bank everything on flacco?

 

without the lack of a running game , flacco play got worse.

if it wasent for the defense we could have been picking top 5.

see manning never had this luxery that could fall back on anything.....

 

The Broncos did make the playoffs but are you suggesting it was because of tebow and his use of all those weapons?

Im pretty sure it that defense that kept games close but maybe im wrong and tebow was carving up defense throwing the ball to his receivers....

 

but im done arguing.

once flacco comes close or breaks the record manning just set then come back at me to say you where right and i was wrong.

until then you can keep on trying to justify how flacco is just as good as manning with every excuse you can think off on why flacco hasent come close yet.

scheme , OC, weapons , o-line , the weather , grass whatever man its all good...............

[K-Dog]

With a RB like Ray Rice, ( on his good years ) your passing numbers will be down.

I find it odd that SOME of the very same people who yell about Rice not getting enough carries also want Flacco to throw for 4,000 yards.

[Tru11]

There is nobody on this forum that thinks Flacco is or will ever be close to Peyton Manning.  That's just a cheap ploy floated by people who bash Flacco - they say everyone else thinks the sun shines out of Joe's backside, a strawman argument they use to attack him.  I challenge you, go back through every post of every "Flacco homer" for the last 6 years, and quote for me where anyone has ever said Joe is as good or will ever be as good as Peyton Manning.  That is simply not true.

 

there are enough post that suggest that if flacco had the same weapons and scheme as peyton or brady he would put up similair stats.

 

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/57061-news-late-for-work-116-ravens-interview-kyle-shanahan-no-request-for-norv-turner-yet/page-9

 

just have a look there as well.

[flynismo]

there are enough post that suggest that if flacco had the same weapons and scheme as peyton or brady he would put up similair stats.

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/57061-news-late-for-work-116-ravens-interview-kyle-shanahan-no-request-for-norv-turner-yet/page-9

just have a look there as well.

So you think that because someone says that if Flacco had great weapons and a good scheme, he would put up similar stats as Manning or Brady, that means they think Flacco is better than those guys?

Interesting.

And nevermind the fact that Flaccos stats WERE similar to Brady's in the pre-Moss and Welker era....I don't want to muddy the conversation with facts.

[Ravenseconbeast]

With a good snap from Gino in the Bears game ,we are in the playoffs.

And that's with the worst oline in Ravens history and the worst run game in te NFl in the past
decade or more.

Or one less INT from Flacco. The margin of error is thin in NFL.

[Ravenslifer]

there are enough post that suggest that if flacco had the same weapons and scheme as peyton or brady he would put up similair stats.

 

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/57061-news-late-for-work-116-ravens-interview-kyle-shanahan-no-request-for-norv-turner-yet/page-9

 

just have a look there as well.

 

I didn't read that - I read that you got into an argument with another poster, and then you posted that idea that the other poster somehow insinuated Joe would be as good as these guys with their weapons.  One guy simply mentioned Matt Cassel after you said it was hard to see just anyone having success in Brady's system.  Then you attacked him for bringing up Matt Cassel, saying there was no comparison in stats - I posit the fact that Tom Brady started for 2 years in college and 7 years in the NFL.  Matt Cassel had the season he had after not having started a single football game, since his senior year in high school, 2001 - Flash forward to 2008, 7 YEARS since his last start, and he puts up 3600 yards, 21 TDs, 11 picks.  You mentioned Peyton Manning being in a new system while failing to mention this is his second year in that system, with Demaryis Thomas a 4th year pro and Eric Decker and Julius Thomas in their third year - not the same as a rookie Marlon Brown or 14 year on his last legs Dallas Clark.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

there are enough post that suggest that if flacco had the same weapons and scheme as peyton or brady he would put up similair stats.

 

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/57061-news-late-for-work-116-ravens-interview-kyle-shanahan-no-request-for-norv-turner-yet/page-9

 

just have a look there as well.

 

 

So saying he would be able to put up a bunch of stats with Peytons receivers,te and oline(which is unanimously considered the best group of offensive talent in the nfl by players,fans,sports analyst and former players turned analyst alike) means that we Flacco homers think he's as good as Peyton?I think it's just common sense that if you upgrade the talent around a qb his stats will be better.Just like if you upgrade a pass rush a db will play better or if you upgrade an oline a rb stats will be better.If Joe can put up 25 tds with Mason,Boldin and Heap as a young qb then he would put up somewhere between 35-40 with the amount of talent denver has.Nobody can predict a guy throwing for 55 tds,but I think its fair to say his stats would have a boost with that group and it wouldn't mean that hes as good as Peyton.

[playlikeawhat]

this is just silly man.

 

colts with manning have been to the play offs 11 out of 13 seasons.....

he was the primary reason all those seasons.

 

he has thrown over 4000 yards in 11 out of those 13 seasons as well  and the least TD he has thrown was 26......

 

the season he got injured they went 2-14 and had the 1st overall pick they spend on luck lol.

 

at that stage in his career you go to the team you think gives you the most chance at succes and well he seemed to have made the right choice did he not....

the blind peyton hate and flacco is just as good logic is getting ridiculous lol.

 

you can surround a player with all the talent he still has to make it work.....

 

again if it was that easy orton and tebow would have done great with the same talent manning had.

fact is they did not come close because they arent that good as him.

 

painter should have set the world on fire with colts with same talent as manning on offense.

he managed to go 2-14.

 

that give any QB the same talent and they will do the same logic is flawed at best.......

Thanks for further validating my point.  You say he threw for 4,000 yards 11 of 13 seasons.  Did he catch any of those passes himself?  No.  He had exceptional talent to help create those records.  Also, look at Peyton's post-Colt decisions.  Dude turned down more dollars from the Titans.  He'd have had just as much offensive control as he had with Indianapolis but he chose an organization and group of players he felt could return him to the Super Bowl quickest, which was smart.  Peyton himself acknowledged he alone was not enough to get a team to the top and doesn't want to wait for any players to develop.  Dude had no idea how his body was going to hold up his first season back and since everybody's so obsessed with stats, his playoff history tells another tale.  He knew that he would need a defense that could bail him out if he did his usual playoff choke.  Who feared Tennessee's defense going into 2013?  I'll wait...

 

This doesn't take away from what he's done.  I'll never deny he has above average pre-snap adjustment skills (arguably the best) but it still comes down to execution to which he's inherently limited like EVERY other quarterback.  

 

Argument: "But he gets the ball out quicker and makes anticipatory throws!"  

 

Reply: Practice (like any team), line performance (Denver's was superior to Baltimore even if by a small margin, it still counts) and receiver talent (Peyton's guys are better at separating more consistently).

 

Nobody ever said Demaryius Thomas was a nobody off the street.  He made a name for himself before Peyton even arrived, thus, Peyton inherited awesome talent which HE KNEW would happen.  Denver Broncos entered 2013 with arguably the best regular-season QB in the NFL.  Why then did they STILL approach Wes Welker?  Supportive talent.  No dynasty was built off of an individual.  Is the QB an integral piece?  Hell yes, but that guarantees nothing as we saw with Tom Brady (receivers, poor throws), Aaron Rodgers (no run game, inconsistent defense), Ben Roethlisberger (1 reliable receiver, no run game), Matt Ryan (injured receivers), Eli Manning (porous line, no run game, inconsistent receivers).  Peyton is not immune to the same challenges of these guys but people will continue to make him out to be greater than he is.

[Ravenslifer]

Thanks for further validating my point.  You say he threw for 4,000 yards 11 of 13 seasons.  Did he catch of those passes himself?  No.  He had exceptional talent to help create those records.  Also, look at Peyton's post-Colt decisions.  Dude turned down more dollars from the Titans.  He'd have had just as much offensive control as he had with Indianapolis but he chose an organization and group of players he felt could return him to the Super Bowl quickest, which was smart.  Peyton himself acknowledged he alone was not enough to get a team to the top and doesn't want to wait for any players to develop.  Dude had no idea how his body was going to hold up his first season back and since everybody's so obsessed with stats, his playoff history tells another tale.  He knew that he would need a defense that could bail him out if he did his usual playoff choke.  Who feared Tennessee's defense going into 2013?  I'll wait...

 

This doesn't take away from what he's done.  I'll never deny he has above average pre-snap adjustment skills (arguably the best) but it still comes down to execution to which he's inherently limited like EVERY other quarterback.  

 

Argument: "But he gets the ball out quicker and makes anticipatory throws!"  

 

Reply: Practice (like any team), line performance (Denver's was superior to Baltimore even if by a small margin, it still counts) and receiver talent (Peyton's guys are better at separating more consistently).

 

Nobody ever said Demaryius Thomas was a nobody off the street.  He made a name for himself before Peyton even arrived, thus, Peyton inherited awesome talent which HE KNEW would happen.  Denver Broncos entered 2013 with arguably the best regular-season QB in the NFL.  Why then did they STILL approach Wes Welker?  Supportive talent.  No dynasty was built off of an individual.  Is the QB an integral piece?  Hell yes, but that guarantees nothing as we saw with Tom Brady (receivers, poor throws), Aaron Rodgers (no run game, inconsistent defense), Ben Roethlisberger (1 reliable receiver, no run game), Matt Ryan (injured receivers), Eli Manning (porous line, no run game, inconsistent receivers).  Peyton is not immune to the same challenges of these guys but people will continue to make him out to be greater than he is.

 

I couldn't find the post you quoted, but I noticed he mentioned the 4000 yards thing like Peyton did it with Mark Clayton.  And this is the one thing I get really sick of - Peyton is quite possibly the best quarterback to ever play the game, but people act like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Brandon Stokeley, and Demaryius Thomas could have been Mark Clayton, Ed Dickson, Marcus Smith, and Ernie Wheelwright and Manning would have still put up all those yards and TDs.  Harrison is a guaranteed HOFer, and Wayne could end up there as well, and who knows where Thomas will be in 10 years.

[TXRavensFan]

so air croyell was not geared to flacco strenghts?

boldin, rice, mason , torrey , pitta  are no slouches so to say no weapons ......

 

are they really that talented or does it help they have a QB who understands defenses better then they do themselfs.

pretty sure any o-line can look good if the QB tell thems who they should account for and the QB probaly already has an idea on where to throw the ball.

it helps an o-line you know when the ball is already in the air before the receiver makes his cut.

its better then the QB waiting till the receiver is open before considering to throw the ball,

 

my point is the colts picked that scheme and did surround him with talent because he could do it and he did proof them right.

they sacrificed the defense and the running game to accomplish that.

 

do you trully think the ravens can make those same sacrifices and bank everything on flacco?

 

without the lack of a running game , flacco play got worse.

if it wasent for the defense we could have been picking top 5.

see manning never had this luxery that could fall back on anything.....

 

The Broncos did make the playoffs but are you suggesting it was because of tebow and his use of all those weapons?

Im pretty sure it that defense that kept games close but maybe im wrong and tebow was carving up defense throwing the ball to his receivers....

 

but im done arguing.

once flacco comes close or breaks the record manning just set then come back at me to say you where right and i was wrong.

until then you can keep on trying to justify how flacco is just as good as manning with every excuse you can think off on why flacco hasent come close yet.

scheme , OC, weapons , o-line , the weather , grass whatever man its all good...............

 

You're making this about Flacco and the Ravens. My point is simply that a QB doesn't do it all on their own and receivers don't do it all on their own. Give credit to each for their individual skills in making an offense work and a team successful.

 

In other words.

 

-Good receivers will make good quarterbacks look better, and bad receivers will make good quarterbacks look worse

 

-Good quarterbacks will make good receivers look better, and bad quarterbacks will make good receivers look worse

 

and so on.

 

It's not rocket science, and honestly I don't understand why people are arguing about it.

[Hardbaugh]

So you think that because someone says that if Flacco had great weapons and a good scheme, he would put up similar stats as Manning or Brady, that means they think Flacco is better than those guys?

Interesting.

And nevermind the fact that Flaccos stats WERE similar to Brady's in the pre-Moss and Welker era....I don't want to muddy the conversation with facts.

 

Typical fallacious post regarding Flacco. 

 

I wouldn't want to further muddy the conversation with more facts but passing is easier than ever now with the redefined pass interference rules in 2004 and now a defender can get flagged for any hit out of the strike zone and some even in it. Flacco finished 32nd in passer rating.

 

Why anyone would even mention him in the same category as any top ten type quarterback from Manning to Russell Wilson is incomprehensible. He's done nothing in the personal stat department over his career to warrant any of it save a four game playoff run.

[gabefergy]

Well this thread has officially become another "Joe Flacco is the man" thread.

Flacco's good. He can still improve. He makes a lot of money, but he's our QB, so get over it.

[Tru11]

So you think that because someone says that if Flacco had great weapons and a good scheme, he would put up similar stats as Manning or Brady, that means they think Flacco is better than those guys?

Interesting.

And nevermind the fact that Flaccos stats WERE similar to Brady's in the pre-Moss and Welker era....I don't want to muddy the conversation with facts.

 

you do realise welker was unproven and moss practially gave up on football after 2 terrible seasons with the raiders right.

both where big gambles and not proven commodity like you or anyone else tries to make it seem.

 

brady 2001-2006

flacco 2008-2013

 

brady 1895 completions 3061 attempts 21.558 yards 61.96% 7.06AVG  147 TD  64INT 88.48QB rating 95 games

flacco 1869 completions 3103 attempts  21545 yards  60.2%  6.94 AVG  121TD  78 INT 83.7 QB rating 96 games

 

hilariously brady had no boldin ,mason or torrey smith type of talent on that team lol.

matter of fact no WR had a 1000 yard season back then.

his wr cores where alot worse then the ravens lol.

 

if you think flacco had it bad just look up what brady had to work with lol.

 

troy brown , deion branch,david givens,david patten and ben watson.

 

accolades:

2001 pro bowl 6th best passer rating in NFL, SB MVP

2002 1st in TD thrown  4th pass compl 3rd pass attemp 6th in pass yard 9th in passer rating

2003 6th pass compl 5th pass  attmp 6th pass yards SB MVP 10th passer rating

2004 6th in TD thrown  pro bowl 9th passer rating 10th in passing yards

2005 3rd in TD thrown 6th passer rating 3rd pass compl 4th in attmp 1st in yards pro bowl

2006 4th in TD passes 9th passer rating 7th comp 8th in attmp 7th in yards 

 

given what brady had to work with and what flacco had and we compare things its not as similiar as most of you want to believe......

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

 

last of me in this thread though.

its an pointless argument anyways since people will always believe what they want to believe.....

same goes for me ofcourse.

[Tru11]

I didn't read that - I read that you got into an argument with another poster, and then you posted that idea that the other poster somehow insinuated Joe would be as good as these guys with their weapons.  One guy simply mentioned Matt Cassel after you said it was hard to see just anyone having success in Brady's system.  Then you attacked him for bringing up Matt Cassel, saying there was no comparison in stats - I posit the fact that Tom Brady started for 2 years in college and 7 years in the NFL.  Matt Cassel had the season he had after not having started a single football game, since his senior year in high school, 2001 - Flash forward to 2008, 7 YEARS since his last start, and he puts up 3600 yards, 21 TDs, 11 picks.  You mentioned Peyton Manning being in a new system while failing to mention this is his second year in that system, with Demaryis Thomas a 4th year pro and Eric Decker and Julius Thomas in their third year - not the same as a rookie Marlon Brown or 14 year on his last legs Dallas Clark.

 

that matt cassel stuff  proves my point.....

no matter how good the system is and how good the players are , the QB will still make the difference depending on how good he is.

 

yeah matt cassel had 21 TD and 11 picks 3693 yards which is impressive given how you said he rarely played but its not like he did not have 3 seasons worth of practice in that system.....

its nothing compared to the talent that is brady put up: 50 td 8 int 4806 yards

 

you see the difference in those stats: talent.

 

same system , same players, different QB= different results.

flacco in that system probaly would have done better but would he have done as much as brady? i doubt it.

flacco better then cassel? yes

flacco better then brady? no

 

no scheme or players will make up the difference in talent between players.