Baltimore Sun article: To fix Ravens offense, Joe Flacco must fix himself?

[CalvinSmoke]

Good point.  I was speaking of Manning tenured with the Colts.  Nonetheless, Manning can carry a team, any team .... Flacco can not!

I would listen to you if you said Brady, because he takes the pay cut. Part if it is the organization but Brady hasn't had a giant pay day of memory serves me well. Manning in the other hand always has been, he doesn't need to break the salary cap because if his endorsements but he has indeed always been a top 5 paid qb

[CalvinSmoke]

Manning cannot carry "any" team.  That's why he cherry-picked where he went and sacrificed money to make sure he had the right players around him.  He's limited like every other quarterback with no competent coaching or athletic talent and discipline to complement his performance.  When Peyton can throw a long bomb, sprint, and catch it himself, I'll believe all this "elite" crap people keep spewing about him.  If he was so great, he would've went to the team that offered him the most money and thrived no matter who was there....he didn't.

I agree with you in terms of the elite thing being over blown. It's more so the qbs that fulfill their roles better than most others. If you give them b grade quality they make it run like grade a quality... But they do need help, no question about that

[jazz1988]

Can Flacco carry a team like the quarterbacks you cited?  The answer is a resounding “No”.   He is getting paid to be that kind of QB, so he needs to perform like it or the franchise it screw for years.  You don’t take 18% of the cap for yourself and expect for the Ravens to surround you with a solid group of players for free.  Flacco needs to take a page from Peyton Manning - -take less money in order to keep players we need to keep and go get other players we need to have.  

 

Flacco isn''t Peyton Manning  or Brees but  if you think he doesn't help carry the team then you fooling your self . The last time i check Flacco , Manning and Brees have one thing in  common and thats one super bowl ring. I think its a crazy for you to believe that the Ravens can't surround Flacco with solid talent. His cap hit was only 6 million last year and will be 14 million next season the ravens will still have enough cap space  to make moves in the free agency.

[Tru11]

Manning cannot carry "any" team.  That's why he cherry-picked where he went and sacrificed money to make sure he had the right players around him.  He's limited like every other quarterback with no competent coaching or athletic talent and discipline to complement his performance.  When Peyton can throw a long bomb, sprint, and catch it himself, I'll believe all this "elite" crap people keep spewing about him.  If he was so great, he would've went to the team that offered him the most money and thrived no matter who was there....he didn't.

 

this is just silly man.

 

colts with manning have been to the play offs 11 out of 13 seasons.....

he was the primary reason all those seasons.

 

he has thrown over 4000 yards in 11 out of those 13 seasons as well  and the least TD he has thrown was 26......

 

the season he got injured they went 2-14 and had the 1st overall pick they spend on luck lol.

 

at that stage in his career you go to the team you think gives you the most chance at succes and well he seemed to have made the right choice did he not....

the blind peyton hate and flacco is just as good logic is getting ridiculous lol.

 

you can surround a player with all the talent he still has to make it work.....

 

again if it was that easy orton and tebow would have done great with the same talent manning had.

fact is they did not come close because they arent that good as him.

 

painter should have set the world on fire with colts with same talent as manning on offense.

he managed to go 2-14.

 

that give any QB the same talent and they will do the same logic is flawed at best.......

[Sami84]

look..flacco has never had a 4000 yard season or hit more than 24 touchdowns.

 

after 7 years I think that says enough. He cannot carry a team..we must make a team good enough to hide his flaws. That playoff run was a fluke. A great one, but still a fluke.

[jimmypowder]

I'll take a couple of more flukes from Joe , thank you . This is nonsense that he cannot carry a team . He has done it in too many games to mention . Remember that drive in Pittsburgh with Torrey's catch to seal the win ?Or this years throw to Marlon in the Vikings game . Or the throw to Jacoby in the Broncos game . Give me a break . It's consistency where Joe has some issues .

[jimmypowder]

We either one of those QBs we are at least in the playoffs this season.

With a good snap from Gino in the Bears game ,we are in the playoffs.

 

And that's with the worst oline in Ravens history and the worst run game in te NFl in the past

decade or more.

[K-Dog]

We either one of those QBs we are at least in the playoffs this season.

Out in game one if even that.

[Tru11]

I'll take a couple of more flukes from Joe , thank you . This is nonsense that he cannot carry a team . He has done it in too many games to mention . Remember that drive in Pittsburgh with Torrey's catch to seal the win ?Or this years throw to Marlon in the Vikings game . Or the throw to Jacoby in the Broncos game . Give me a break . It's consistency where Joe has some issues .

 

yeah carrying a team and consistency goes hand in hand IMO

[jimmypowder]

yeah carrying a team and consistency goes hand in hand IMO

Really? Tell that to Eli ,Cutler,etc. You can still carry a team and be inconsistent .

[Tru11]

With a good snap from Gino in the Bears game ,we are in the playoffs.

 

And that's with the worst oline in Ravens history and the worst run game in te NFl in the past

decade or more.

 

a pick 6 less in that game would have done the job as well.....

or a pick less that set up a FG...

or getting a TD or FG on the 1st drive of OT

 

we can do this all day if you want lol.

 

Flacco was far from perfect this season and it was probaly a fluke but seriously stop making excuses and putting the blame on everyone else but him.

he was as much as a factor as everyone on the team.

[Tru11]

Really? Tell that to Eli ,Cutler,etc. You can still carry a team and be inconsistent .

 

yeah when you do that you will be watching the play offs from your couch........

 

if that is what you expect from your leader then yeah he did a great job....

 

id also like to note that the bears where pretty much carried by matt forte and some nice games by that McCown fella since Cutler was injured.

 

and well eli started out 0-7 and ended 7-9....

the games they won where not exactly all tnx to him upon a closer look.....

[TXRavensFan]

that give any QB the same talent and they will do the same logic is flawed at best.......

It's as flawed as the logic that you can drop a so-called elite QB on a talent deprived team and he will make them play like all-pros.

To consistently win, you need to have a good QB and surround him with talent.

Granted Painter couldn't make their offense work, but how does Manning fare without a good o-line and their talent at the skill positions? You need both.

[TDubbs]

All that talent didn't change the fact that Brady was playing with 3rd and 4th stringers this year, and that reflected in his numbers - completed less than 62 percent of his passes for the first time since 2004, threw for just 25 TDs the first time since 2006, under 4500 yards for just the second time since 2006, quarterback rating under 90 for the first time since 2006.  Even Brady doesn't put up all-time great numbers without a supporting cast.  No quarterback does - all of the ones with big numbers have high draft picks at receiver and tight end.  IDC how good a quarterback is, it's ridiculous to expect one player to carry a team.  Joe will never be a Brady or Manning or Brees, but I dislike the notion that any one of them could come in here, operate this specific offense with these players this year, and look just like they do in their current systems.

 

While I do agree with the statement, Brady still got that team to the AFC Championship game this year, arguably with less talent then our offense has, but that's also why he's considered maybe the best QB ever. QB's seem to take all the blame, yet all the credit nowadays. 

 

Football is the ultimate team sport and it is ridiculous to expect one player to carry a team. QB's need talent around them to thrive and we obviously didn't have enough here. I mean, Manning is a great QB but he doesn't have a record setting season without the ridiculous talent he has in Denver. 

[Tru11]

It's as flawed as the logic that you can drop a so-called elite QB on a talent deprived team and he will make them play like all-pros.

To consistently win, you need to have a good QB and surround him with talent.

Granted Painter couldn't make their offense work, but how does Manning fare without a good o-line and their talent at the skill positions? You need both.

 

he did fine with that depleted o-line this season......

SB appearance and historic regular season seems  pretty good to me.

without Clady and Koppen on that o-line its pretty impressive....

 

Also with those colts teams you are right and the colts spend a lot on getting talented receivers but what most forget is that the defense got robbed of that talent.

If the colts wanted to win , manning had to be manning or they would loose.

NO run game or NO top rated defense to carry any load for that team.

 

Are you sure that flacco can do the same for the ravens?

I dont think we can win with everything on the shoulders of flacco.

i do think we can win if stop trying to force him to be like manning and just let him be flacco.

 

BTW i do think Peyton can turn torrey smith in an All Pro.

He worked wonders with Decker and DThomas, Julius Thomas and Knowshawn Moreno.....

if you want i can bring in their stats prior to manning and now with manning to proof my point....

[arnie_uk]

a pick 6 less in that game would have done the job as well.....
or a pick less that set up a FG...
or getting a TD or FG on the 1st drive of OT
 
we can do this all day if you want lol.
 
Flacco was far from perfect this season and it was probaly a fluke but seriously stop making excuses and putting the blame on everyone else but him.
he was as much as a factor as everyone on the team.

you clearly missed the whole point of his post. He replied to someone saying that kap or wilson would get us to the playoffs,

You coudk say that about virtually any good player on offence or defence because in reality all we needed was one more play and any particular moment in any one game to get us an extra win. Heck if we had one better special teamer than Michael huff Pitts might not have got that big return and may not have kicked the fg on the first game.

If we had a coverage safety we may have given up one less big play. If we had a big back like Blount we may have scored a td on the multiple 4th and goals we failed to convert this year.

If Gino didn't mess the snap up torrey iirc was wideeee open for a game winning td against the bears.

If john harbaugh challenged the drop for welker against the broncos that kept that drive alive

If flacco didn't throw a pick just outside the redzone against the bills.

We were one play from the playoffs, it's pointless trying to blame flacco and say awk well kap would have got us there. Kap may have beat say gb, but there is no way in hell he scores two tds and 2 point conversion in 2 mins against the Vikings.

[arnie_uk]

he did fine with that depleted o-line this season......
SB appearance and historic regular season seems  pretty good to me.
without Clady and Koppen on that o-line its pretty impressive....
 
Also with those colts teams you are right and the colts spend a lot on getting talented receivers but what most forget is that the defense got robbed of that talent.
If the colts wanted to win , manning had to be manning or they would loose.
NO run game or NO top rated defense to carry any load for that team.
 
Are you sure that flacco can do the same for the ravens?
I dont think we can win with everything on the shoulders of flacco.
i do think we can win if stop trying to force him to be like manning and just let him be flacco.

when did we Ty to force him to be like manning. Flacco actually attempts passes that travel longer than 10 yards in the air

[Ravenslifer]

While I do agree with the statement, Brady still got that team to the AFC Championship game this year, arguably with less talent then our offense has, but that's also why he's considered maybe the best QB ever. QB's seem to take all the blame, yet all the credit nowadays. 

 

Football is the ultimate team sport and it is ridiculous to expect one player to carry a team. QB's need talent around them to thrive and we obviously didn't have enough here. I mean, Manning is a great QB but he doesn't have a record setting season without the ridiculous talent he has in Denver. 

 

Exactly, but as you mentioned with Brady, scheme has as much if not more to do with a player's success as the talent around them.  I easily think that, minus Gronk and Hernandez and Welker and the injured Amendola, the Ravens have better offensive talent than the Pats.  Brady had a major dip in numbers because of that - but he still looked better than Flacco because his offense is designed around making life easier for the quarterback, and designed around taking advantage of the strengths of his receivers - a lot of screens, slants, throwing to the RB, quick drop-backs and release, etc.  

 

Our offense seems to be designed for Joe to hold on to the ball forever until the receiver completes a deep route, and if he hasn't been sacked by that time, to throw it into a tight window down the field.  Not to mention the lack of variation in the routes means we're highly dependent on play-action passing to disguise what we're trying to do.  Last year in the playoffs, we had Pitta and Boldin to work the middle of the field, and Rice and Pierce were running fantastically behind a solid o-line.  This year, no over the middle presence (and we didn't really try to let Torrey or Marlon do that enough), and no running game, so we struggled, whereas Brady loses both tight ends, so they redesign the offense to feature more RBs and receivers.

[Tru11]

when did we Ty to force him to be like manning. Flacco actually attempts passes that travel longer than 10 yards in the air

 

yeah and are far from accurate in the proces................

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

yeah and are far from accurate in the proces................

 

Rodgers Manning and Brady throw inaccurate/underthrown balls all the time.Manning and Rodgers just have receivers who still make plays on those balls and before this year Brady did too.When was the last time you saw Manning throw a perfect tight spiraled pass?

[Ravenslifer]

he did fine with that depleted o-line this season......

SB appearance and historic regular season seems  pretty good to me.

without Clady and Koppen on that o-line its pretty impressive....

 

 

 

I think you're making an unfair comparison here on two levels.  One, Manning is probably the greatest all time when it comes to pre-snap reads; the vast majority of the time he's already figured out what the defense is doing before the ball is snapped, so he can neutralize it.  Joe is not, nor will ever be that - to try and compare Joe and his above average but still flawed game to the GOAT is ridiculous - why not compare Torrey Smith to Michael Irvin or Jerry Rice?  And two, Manning's offense is based around short passes and letting his receivers do the work gaining YAC - he doesn't have the arm strength to fling it down the field anymore.  He completes a high percentage of his passes and moves the chains.  By design, that means he doesn't have to hold the ball too long before the receivers' routes develop, and he can get rid of it.  

 

Contrast that to our offense where the majority of the routes are 15+ yards downfield, Joe has to hold on to the ball until the receiver is in position, which takes time and allows the defense more time.  The guy you need to be comparing Joe to is Philip Rivers, who up until this year ran the same offensive system as Joe did, except with the right personnel - 6'5" receivers and tight ends that could win easy man coverage battles and adjust to overthrown balls, which is the norm with any quarterback flinging the ball down the field - you just can't be that accurate on a deep pass consistently.  And what happened to Rivers - lost his receivers, fell apart, everyone says he's done.  Enter Mike McCoy, who decides to emphasize the short passing game and stay away from the Air Coryell model, and presto, Rivers puts up big numbers again.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

If we would've had the two Thomas',Decker and Welker this year we would've won 11 games at the very least no matter what the defense looked like.We chose to beef up the wrong side of the ball and we missed the playoffs and watched our qb regress because of it.

[Tru11]

you clearly missed the whole point of his post. He replied to someone saying that kap or wilson would get us to the playoffs,

You coudk say that about virtually any good player on offence or defence because in reality all we needed was one more play and any particular moment in any one game to get us an extra win. Heck if we had one better special teamer than Michael huff Pitts might not have got that big return and may not have kicked the fg on the first game.

If we had a coverage safety we may have given up one less big play. If we had a big back like Blount we may have scored a td on the multiple 4th and goals we failed to convert this year.

If Gino didn't mess the snap up torrey iirc was wideeee open for a game winning td against the bears.

If john harbaugh challenged the drop for welker against the broncos that kept that drive alive

If flacco didn't throw a pick just outside the redzone against the bills.

We were one play from the playoffs, it's pointless trying to blame flacco and say awk well kap would have got us there. Kap may have beat say gb, but there is no way in hell he scores two tds and 2 point conversion in 2 mins against the Vikings.

 

its funny that you say that though.

one could argue that wilson and keap might not have thrown 3 INT in that game either so it would not even come down to those final 2 minutes....

 

as much as flacco saved the day in that game he was pretty much a big part of the reason we where in that situation in the first place .....

[Tru11]

I think you're making an unfair comparison here on two levels.  One, Manning is probably the greatest all time when it comes to pre-snap reads; the vast majority of the time he's already figured out what the defense is doing before the ball is snapped, so he can neutralize it.  Joe is not, nor will ever be that - to try and compare Joe and his above average but still flawed game to the GOAT is ridiculous - why not compare Torrey Smith to Michael Irvin or Jerry Rice?  And two, Manning's offense is based around short passes and letting his receivers do the work gaining YAC - he doesn't have the arm strength to fling it down the field anymore.  He completes a high percentage of his passes and moves the chains.  By design, that means he doesn't have to hold the ball too long before the receivers' routes develop, and he can get rid of it.  

 

Contrast that to our offense where the majority of the routes are 15+ yards downfield, Joe has to hold on to the ball until the receiver is in position, which takes time and allows the defense more time.  The guy you need to be comparing Joe to is Philip Rivers, who up until this year ran the same offensive system as Joe did, except with the right personnel - 6'5" receivers and tight ends that could win easy man coverage battles and adjust to overthrown balls, which is the norm with any quarterback flinging the ball down the field - you just can't be that accurate on a deep pass consistently.  And what happened to Rivers - lost his receivers, fell apart, everyone says he's done.  Enter Mike McCoy, who decides to emphasize the short passing game and stay away from the Air Coryell model, and presto, Rivers puts up big numbers again.

 

 

Bolded part is the point im trying to make.

 

manning is a better QB then flacco and its not only because of scheme and skill position players what seems to be the popular belief here.....

 

im not compairing anyone.

peyton is on another level then flacco but alot of flacco lovers wont ever believe that lol

[Tru11]

If we would've had the two Thomas',Decker and Welker this year we would've won 11 games at the very least no matter what the defense looked like.We chose to beef up the wrong side of the ball and we missed the playoffs and watched our qb regress because of it.

 

based on what do you come to this conclusion?

[Ravenslifer]

Bolded part is the point im trying to make.

 

manning is a better QB then flacco and its not only because of scheme and skill position players what seems to be the popular belief here.....

 

im not compairing anyone.

peyton is on another level then flacco but alot of flacco lovers wont ever believe that lol

 

Well the question is, does it matter?  Peyton is a once in a generation type QB.  It doesn't change the fact that, given the right system and coaching, Joe Flacco can be a better and more consistent quarterback, and lead the team to another Superbowl down the road, and maybe even make a probowl or two in his career.  Joe's being compared to Peyton and Brady, when people should be comparing him to the likes of Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers - guys who showed they can't succeed without the talent around them, but put the right talent and scheme around them and they put up big numbers.

[Tru11]

Rodgers Manning and Brady throw inaccurate/underthrown balls all the time.Manning and Rodgers just have receivers who still make plays on those balls and before this year Brady did too.When was the last time you saw Manning throw a perfect tight spiraled pass?

 

i never said they throw perfect passes all the time.

 

they are more accurate then flacco though......

[Tru11]

Well the question is, does it matter?  Peyton is a once in a generation type QB.  It doesn't change the fact that, given the right system and coaching, Joe Flacco can be a better and more consistent quarterback, and lead the team to another Superbowl down the road, and maybe even make a probowl or two in his career.  Joe's being compared to Peyton and Brady, when people should be comparing him to the likes of Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers - guys who showed they can't succeed without the talent around them, but put the right talent and scheme around them and they put up big numbers.

 

it doesent really matter TBH.

i can just let it slide and chuckle reading it.

 

its probaly pointless trying to explain why peyton is better.

i mean if people cant even see it then whats the point .

 

you are right though and i give up.

[flynismo]

peyton is on another level then flacco but alot of flacco lovers wont ever believe that lol

It's that kind of ridiculous statement that keeps these stupid Flacco arguments going on and on and on.

[UltimateRavensFan28]

I think it's hard to tell how much of the problem is Flacco, I think he needs work with his Wide Receivers to get more comfortable with them but, with the poor run game, poor O-Line protection and the injuries there, and his go to Receiver now in San Fran, but I beleive more in the article I read that yes Flacco had a down year but he's going to be much better and back to the Flacco we saw highlight reels on from 2012.

 

I don't think Flacco is Peyton or Brady when it comes to statistics and all but Flacco's a better playoff QB that either Brady or Manning. Look how Brady has performed in the playoffs since 2009, it really has been less than impressive. Yes Pats have big wins in the divisional round but it was more due to the poor play of their apponent than Brady himself. In Peyton's case it's much the same. That's why I really could see Peyton losing to the Seahawks.