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Ravenskid52752

Baltimore Sun article: To fix Ravens offense, Joe Flacco must fix himself?

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I'm not tagging the fans exclusively for being ingrates.  The coaches and F.O. deserve this too.  I don't see any indication of them fully grasping what they had during the 2012 playoffs.  They FINALLY had an offense the media and other teams respected.  What did they do to preserve as much of it as possible?  Secured a captain but not his crew.  Dumbest move ever.  Birk couldn't be helped but the politics with Moeller and a blue light special request to Boldin after he EARNED the remainder of his contract last year?

 

 

Salary cap.  It functioned as designed.

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are you insinuating that next season isn't key for Flacco?
for the first time in his career we missed the playoffs, he threw more picks than TDs, and had an overall disappointing year, like I said: I'm not saying Flacco was the only problem this year or that he deserves a majority or the blame
yeah some people have been saying that his whole career, but I haven't, this is the first time I've said that phrase, and I'm sticking to it, after the horrible year he had, we are going to see just how mentally tough Flacco is and how well he can rebound from the worst year of his career. Obviously what we do this offseason is also key, if we throw the same exact team we have right now next year then he probably won't do any better, maybe a little better with a healthy Pitta, but not a major difference.


I read your previous post, and there is nothing wrong with having reservations about Flacco (to an extent). All I can say is, if you are worried about his toughness -- mentally or physically -- you have nothing to he worried about.
My personal concern is whether or not the FO will stop thinking that winning a SB does not make you McGuyver, where you can be put in an impossible situation and still make dangerous weapons out of a safety pin and a couple marshmallows.
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You basically nitpicked the worst comment of the whole paragraph i've commented on and basically responding to just that only.  How about actually commenting on rest of what i've said?


I don't want to turn this into a you vs me thing. But I'm not sure what else you want me to comment on. You said the Coryell is catered to Joe and I commented by disagreeing. It's not. The deep ball and vertical game just allows Flacco to cover up inefficiences in the offense.

You said Flacco isn't accurate enough for a WCO, I commented by saying he's very accurate in that area when asked to run the 2 minute offense or just open things up.

You commented on Flacco's high int numbers being a clear indicator of him trying to be someone he's not and not knowing his own weaknesses by trying to make tight throws, I commented by saying that he's been making tight window throws his entire career because that's what this offense relies on from Flacco.

Is there something I missed that you'd like me to comment on from you post? And again it's not a me vs you thing because I'm no more qualified to talk about what a professional needs to do to improve in his profession then anyone here. I just get the sense from reading a lot of comments throughout the year that people don't seem to know just how much the Coryell system limits Joe Flacco. The system is flawed but because of Flacco's big arm he's able to make it work, but normally you want a system that's already good and hope your players make it great. Flacco will still have has struggles in quicker more spread offense, but those struggles won't be a great as we see now. You say Flacco's arm makes defenders have to defend the entire field and that true about his natural talent, but in this offense all defenders have to do is defend the deep area of the field because we don't allow Flacco to do what he does best

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I don't want to turn this into a you vv me thing. But I'm not sure what else you want me to comment on. You said the Croyell is catered to Joe and I commented by disagreeing. It's not. The deep ball and vertical game just allows Flacco to cover up inefficiences in the offense.

You said Flacco isn't accurate enough for a WCO, I commented by saying he's very accurate in that area when asked to run the 2 minute offense or just open things up.

You commented on Flacco's high int numbers being a clear indicator of him trying to be someone he's not and not knowing his own weaknesses by trying to make tight throws, I commented by saying that he's been making tight window throws his entire career because that's what this offense relies on from Flacco.

Is there something I missed that you'd like me to comment on from you post? And again it's not a me vs you thing because I'm no more qualified to talk about what a professional needs to do to improve in his profession then anyone here. I just get the sense from reading a lot of comments throughout the year that people don't seem to know just how much the Croyell system limits Joe Flacco. The system is flawed but because of Flacco's big arm he's able to make it work, but normally you want a system that's already good and hope your players make it great. Flacco will still have has struggles in quicker more spread offense, but those struggles won't be a great as we see now. You say Flacco's arm makes defenders have to defend the entire field and that true about his natural talent, but in this offense all defenders have to do is defend the deep area of the field because we don't allow Flacco to do what he does best

 

Who in the world is Croyell?

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I read your previous post, and there is nothing wrong with having reservations about Flacco (to an extent). All I can say is, if you are worried about his toughness -- mentally or physically -- you have nothing to he worried about.
My personal concern is whether or not the FO will stop thinking that winning a SB does not make you McGuyver, where you can be put in an impossible situation and still make dangerous weapons out of a safety pin and a couple marshmallows.

This.  A thousand times, this!!  Stop caving in to greedy agents and being cheap with the bigger picture.  PLEASE, front office.

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This.  A thousand times, this!!  Stop caving in to greedy agents and being cheap with the bigger picture.  PLEASE, front office.

The agent works on behalf of the player.  Too many times the agent whether it be Boras, Rosenhaus or another agent shoulder the criticism from fans because they don't wish to criticize their "heroes" but the player is ultimately responsible for the greed  "seeking of respect".

 

I do agree the front office shouldn't have caved into Flacco's demands and are just as much at fault as Flacco. 

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lets be fair.

 

last season , this season and next season we have no right what so ever to complain about flacco and his cap number.

 

its pretty darn low when you  measure it against other QBs.

in terms of the cap flacco has been real friendly and team oriented.

 

his contract is the least of the worriest for now.

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Flacco > Kap or WIlson .

 

I appreciate love the one you're with but not true.  Flacco has never had a 100 Qb rating for a season like Wilson and is not the kind of dangerous threat Kaepernick is. Both had better seasons than Flacco.

 

I'd take both in a second over Flacco.

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I appreciate love the one you're with but not true.  Flacco has never had a 100 Qb rating for a season like Wilson and is not the kind of dangerous threat Kaepernick is. Both had better seasons than Flacco.

 

I'd take both in a second over Flacco.

Stats mean nothing to me .Wins do. Both had better seasons this year then Flacco but I'd take Flacco over either one

any day.

 

I think Joe has the most wins in his first 5-6 year then any QB in NFL history .That's the stat I car about.

 

He also has as many rings as Peyton Manning. That's what I care about.RINGS!

 

Peyton gonna lose in the cold weather on N.J too come Super Bowl.

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I read your previous post, and there is nothing wrong with having reservations about Flacco (to an extent). All I can say is, if you are worried about his toughness -- mentally or physically -- you have nothing to he worried about.My personal concern is whether or not the FO will stop thinking that winning a SB does not make you McGuyver, where you can be put in an impossible situation and still make dangerous weapons out of a safety pin and a couple marshmallows.


I think this is the biggest thing. Flacco is flawed, but so is the FO in how they handled Flacco. The things we as fans want to see from the guy just won't happen if the FO doesn't do their part. There has been a disconnect between the system and thhe decision making of the FO. Now I'm gonna keep this on topic, but when you look at our system and what it request of the players, we should have been providing topic notch "young" talent to the offense to learn behind guys like Mason, Heap, Boldin and others. This system needs the Vincent Jacksons, Brandon Marshall's of the world to thrive. Now I know because of cap and draft position we aren't able to land top notch talent, but that's where the disconnect comes in. If you can't supply this offense with the correct peices you have to do away with it. We continue to draft guys like Jah Reid who aren't bad picks, but they are developmental guys and when you ask them to do things like pass block for a long time they struggle. Imo guys like Ried, Cousins, Chester, Harewood and some others weren't really bad player, well so were, but we basically put those guys in a system that highlighted their flaws.

We either needed to do a do a better job of adding players, work with what we had better or just flat out change the offense. I feel the Ravens were right to handle Flacco the way they did the first two years, but then in 2010 he started to show he was ready to have his cuffs removed but instead of removing the system cuffs the FO just removed the weapons. I understand the need to add players who aren't the greatest but are quality for the sake of the overall team. But just like the defense, if you are gonna do that but these offensive players in a system that best suits them and asking above average talent to consistently win one on one at every phase isn't suitable imo.
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I think this is the biggest thing. Flacco is flawed, but so is the FO in how they handled Flacco. The things we as fans want to see from the guy just won't happen if the FO doesn't do their part. There has been a disconnect between the system and thhe decision making of the FO. Now I'm gonna keep this on topic, but when you look at our system and what it request of the players, we should have been providing topic notch "young" talent to the offense to learn behind guys like Mason, Heap, Boldin and others. This system needs the Vincent Jacksons, Brandon Marshall's of the world to thrive. Now I know because of cap and draft position we aren't able to land top notch talent, but that's where the disconnect comes in. If you can't supply this offense with the correct peices you have to do away with it. We continue to draft guys like Jah Reid who aren't bad picks, but they are developmental guys and when you ask them to do things like pass block for a long time they struggle. Imo guys like Ried, Cousins, Chester, Harewood and some others weren't really bad player, well so were, but we basically put those guys in a system that highlighted their flaws.

We either needed to do a do a better job of adding players, work with what we had better or just flat out change the offense. I feel the Ravens were right to handle Flacco the way they did the first two years, but then in 2010 he started to show he was ready to have his cuffs removed but instead of removing the system cuffs the FO just removed the weapons. I understand the need to add players who aren't the greatest but are quality for the sake of the overall team. But just like the defense, if you are gonna do that but these offensive players in a system that best suits them and asking above average talent to consistently win one on one at every phase isn't suitable imo.

 

I'm glad to see you state it this way. Though some on the board will analyze and point out perceived flaws and strengths as they see them there are some who may observe the weaknesses but appear to not be able to appreciate it being mentioned and seem to take it personally.

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Posted · Hidden by Grapple Raven, January 20, 2014 - Instigating, and re-hashing a very old debate. · Report post

Stats mean nothing to me .Wins do. Both had better seasons this year then Flacco but I'd take Flacco over either one

any day.

 

I think Joe has the most wins in his first 5-6 year then any QB in NFL history .That's the stat I car about.

 

He also has as many rings as Peyton Manning. That's what I care about.RINGS!

 

Peyton gonna lose in the cold weather on N.J too come Super Bowl.

So it's not stats it's wins???

 

Kaepernick .739 winning pct.

Wilson .750 winning pct.

Flacco  .646 winning pct.

 

Keep trying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Anyone who watched media darling Russell Wilson last night and his overall poor performance knows

that having weapons and a good oline matter quite a bit ,irregardless of who you are.

Yeah, and not turning the ball over helps.

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I think this is the biggest thing. Flacco is flawed, but so is the FO in how they handled Flacco. The things we as fans want to see from the guy just won't happen if the FO doesn't do their part. There has been a disconnect between the system and thhe decision making of the FO. Now I'm gonna keep this on topic, but when you look at our system and what it request of the players, we should have been providing topic notch "young" talent to the offense to learn behind guys like Mason, Heap, Boldin and others. This system needs the Vincent Jacksons, Brandon Marshall's of the world to thrive. Now I know because of cap and draft position we aren't able to land top notch talent, but that's where the disconnect comes in. If you can't supply this offense with the correct peices you have to do away with it. We continue to draft guys like Jah Reid who aren't bad picks, but they are developmental guys and when you ask them to do things like pass block for a long time they struggle. Imo guys like Ried, Cousins, Chester, Harewood and some others weren't really bad player, well so were, but we basically put those guys in a system that highlighted their flaws.

We either needed to do a do a better job of adding players, work with what we had better or just flat out change the offense. I feel the Ravens were right to handle Flacco the way they did the first two years, but then in 2010 he started to show he was ready to have his cuffs removed but instead of removing the system cuffs the FO just removed the weapons. I understand the need to add players who aren't the greatest but are quality for the sake of the overall team. But just like the defense, if you are gonna do that but these offensive players in a system that best suits them and asking above average talent to consistently win one on one at every phase isn't suitable imo.


Yep, and which is why I really want to see us land Mike Evans in the draft. The Air Coryell was designed because of guys like him. And giving Flacco a huge target with the catch radius of a 747 and reliable hands should be our number one priority.

That is what concerns the hell out of me about the FO. They talk about wanting a move-the-chains kinda guy, but don't want to run the appropriate type of system for a move-the-chains guy that they want to get. In other words, fitting a square peg in a round hole.
When will they ever learn?
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Mod note:  No problem with discussion on the article topic, but please chill on the "Flacco regurgitation".  There are only so many ways and times the same points can be restated without falling on deaf ears.  :deadhorse:

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I'm glad to see you state it this way. Though some on the board will analyze and point out perceived flaws and strengths as they see them there are some who may observe the weaknesses but appear to not be able to appreciate it being mentioned and seem to take it personally.


Yea I think it's foolish to think Flacco doesn't have flaws. Everyone has flaws, Joe, Ozzie, Harbs, Mr. B, Peyton, Brady everyone. The idea is to limit those flaws. Joe has lazy feet, he still stares down WRs at times and relies on his strong arm to beat coverage instead of anticipation, which leads to being late on some timing routes. As much as people praise Joe for his deep ball ability, he still struggles to adjust to the WR who is running deep, far to often guys have to eith wait on the ball or it's just out of their reach. So he's not perfect by a long shot.

However, what this offense does it put Flacco in constant position to battle and over those flaws each game instead of allowing him to do what he's most comfortable with. Flacco is generally good, not perfect but good with the 2 minute offense and hurry up offense because it focuses on him getting the ball out of his hands quickly, it allows him to read the defense and attack where they are weak, it allows him to kind of dink and dunk until the defense falls asleep on the deep, think Steelers game winning drive in2011 or AFC game winning drive that Evans dropped.

The problem is we see these moments in a small sample size and it frustrates the hell out of us fans. Is it Flacco, is it the system, is it the talent around him, what? At the end of the day I don't care what it is, it just has to improve. We are about to have a new OC and probably a new offense and Flacco has to take the inititive to make the offense better. Not saying he hasn't in the past but everything and everyone has to improve with this offense. If the offense is finallyy built around Joe then I confident enough in what I've seen from him to say we'll be much better.
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This.  Joe will never change.  Joe will always be the way he is now.  Ray Lewis took some heat for it but he was right that Flacco will not get better.  If given the right support cast, Joe will take us to the promise land every year.  If Flacco has a poor line, mediocre running game, and average WRs, he will never be successful like some other QBs that can overcome those factors.

I am just curious, which QBs exactly overcame a poor line, mediocre running game (Flacco didn't have a mediocre running game... he had an absolutely terrible running game), and average Wrs to have a successful season?  Because the QBs that I saw having good seasons, I wouldn't say any of them overcame any of that stuff, so where is the evidence that it can be overcome by "some other QBs"?  Who are these other QBs?  When have Brady/Manning/Rodgers/Brees, etc. ever had a bad running game, bad offensive line, AND receivers who you could take or leave at best and who are a liability at worst?

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Yep, and which is why I really want to see us land Mike Evans in the draft. The Air Coryell was designed because of guys like him. And giving Flacco a huge target with the catch radius of a 747 and reliable hands should be our number one priority.
That is what concerns the hell out of me about the FO. They talk about wanting a move-the-chains kinda guy, but don't want to run the appropriate type of system for a move-the-chains guy that they want to get. In other words, fitting a square peg in a round hole.
When will they ever learn?


Exactly, I always thought guys like Doss, Reed, Marcus Smith, and others were more suited for the West Coast offense or any type of spread type that allowed those guys to work in space with their catch and run abilities. But of course we didn't run that system, then we'd try to get the guys who fit this system in later rounds like Harper and Streeter, or a castoff like Hardy.

As for Evans, I'm not a big fan but if we stayed with this offense I wouldn't mind him. But as you know I wanna scrap the offense altogether. Give guys like Doss, Torrey, Thompson, Mellette, Brown and even Juice the chance to be success and maximize their full potential. We draft guys from a spread system and force them into a isolation type offense. So I say just move to a more spread offense but keep a physical run style like the Pats or Texans. If you are gonna continue to suuply the offense with these type of players why not use them to their strenghts and just change the offense.
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I'd love to know of any QB that has ever overcome all of that.

 

Aaron Rodgers. Up until this year, he's never had a strong run game, his offensive line isn't that great and are mostly injured every season it seems, and he loses guys like James Jones and Cobb for a long portion and still puts up some numbers.

 

But yeah I get your  point. That's why there are the elite 4, and everyone else tries their best with what they got.

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My flag football QB has a porous oline, zero running game and a torn ACL, yet he still gets me the ball. Yeah, thats right. I am saying a hobbled flag football QB is overcoming the same stuff Flacco needs to. Yeah, sign him up!
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People are asking me which QB I think would thrive in the offense we had this past year, and the only one that comes to mind is Tom Brady.  He has a good line, but an average running game and (at best) average WRs.  Not the same thing the Ravens have, but I think Brady would make Marlon Brown look like Rodney White.  Tom Brady is also used to turnover in his offense and I've seen him be a really good (or great) QB each and every year.  That's not to say other QBs can't do it, but I've only seen it with Brady.

 

And that's all a maybe.  I think we would at least have 10 wins though instead of Flacco's 8.  Don't take it the wrong way ... Brady is a future HoF'er even if I don't like him that much as a person.

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Aaron Rodgers. Up until this year, he's never had a strong run game, his offensive line isn't that great and are mostly injured every season it seems, and he loses guys like James Jones and Cobb for a long portion and still puts up some numbers.

 

But yeah I get your  point. That's why there are the elite 4, and everyone else tries their best with what they got.

Since 2008 (when Rodgers became a starter) the Packers have averaged 4.14 yards per rush attempt.   (The Ravens are at 4.05 by the way).

 

3.81 yards per attempt was the worst season the Packers have had in that span.  This season the Packers had the 4th best run game at 4.65 yards per attempt, and Rodgers only had to play without *both* Jones & Cobb in two games, and they were against the Browns and the Vikings, and with a top 5 running game, so once again I'm arguing that this in no way shows that he successfully overcame the same kind of stuff Flacco was forced to deal with this season.

 

To suggest he's had to overcome the kind of awful run game the Ravens had to overcome this year is just disingenuous.  The Ravens had 3.14 yards per attempt this season!  That's by far the worst season any team has had in that same span since 2008.  The Ravens finished the season bottom 40 all time in rushing yards per attempt for a single season in NFL history, and the worst since the 2000 Chargers who had 3.03 yards per attempt and went 1-15 that season!

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People are asking me which QB I think would thrive in the offense we had this past year, and the only one that comes to mind is Tom Brady.  He has a good line, but an average running game and (at best) average WRs.  Not the same thing the Ravens have, but I think Brady would make Marlon Brown look like Rodney White.  Tom Brady is also used to turnover in his offense and I've seen him be a really good (or great) QB each and every year.  That's not to say other QBs can't do it, but I've only seen it with Brady.

 

And that's all a maybe.  I think we would at least have 10 wins though instead of Flacco's 8.  Don't take it the wrong way ... Brady is a future HoF'er even if I don't like him that much as a person.

Average running game?  They were top 10 in yards & yards per attempt, and scored the 2nd most rushing touchdowns in the NFL.  They had literally 1.25 yards per attempt more than the Ravens this season.  That's not even in the same ballpark as having to overcome what Flacco dealt with this year.  The Ravens were 3rd worst in yards, worst in yards per attempt, and 3rd fewest touchdowns scored.  The Ravens had the worst rushing yards per attempt since the 2000 Chargers went 1-15 and had 3.03 yards per attempt (compared to our 3.14).

 

Oh and Tom Brady had Julian Edelman.  That's a true #1, all-downs, reliable receiver.  He caught nearly 70% of the passes targeted to him this season.  Flacco didn't have anyone even remotely like that to throw the ball to.

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Average running game?  They were top 10 in yards & yards per attempt, and scored the 2nd most rushing touchdowns in the NFL.  They had literally 1.25 yards per attempt more than the Ravens this season.  That's not even in the same ballpark as having to overcome what Flacco dealt with this year.  The Ravens were 3rd worst in yards, worst in yards per attempt, and 3rd fewest touchdowns scored.  The Ravens had the worst rushing yards per attempt since the 2000 Chargers went 1-15 and had 3.03 yards per attempt (compared to our 3.14).

 

Oh and Tom Brady had Julian Edelman.  That's a true #1, all-downs, reliable receiver.  He caught nearly 70% of the passes targeted to him this season.  Flacco didn't have anyone even remotely like that to throw the ball to.

 

I'll give you the run game, but Julian Edelman?  Who was he before this year?  Edelman is good because of Tom Brady.  Any WR would strive under Brady, and Edelman is not the first one.

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I'll give you the run game, but Julian Edelman?  Who was he before this year?  Edelman is good because of Tom Brady.  Any WR would strive under Brady, and Edelman is not the first one.

I think this line of thinking is really unfair to Julian Edelman.  It doesn't matter who he was before this year.  He wasn't given as much of an opportunity to play because there were other players on the roster who already had that spot in their control (Wes Welker).  When given the opportunity, he stepped up and played well.  He didn't play well just because Tom Brady was throwing the ball to him... he played well.  Period, and end of story, really.  He ran the right routes and he ran them well, and he caugh the ball when it was thrown to him.  What more can you ask of a receiver?  He is a good player and given the opportunity to shine, he shined.

 

Players who aren't really starters because someone else was entrenched in the position already, they are more and more frequently proving that they should be starters in this league when given the chance.  Look at Nick Foles, Colin Kaepernick, even Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady were once on the bench before they got a chance to get on the field.

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I think this line of thinking is really unfair to Julian Edelman.  It doesn't matter who he was before this year.  He wasn't given as much of an opportunity to play because there were other players on the roster who already had that spot in their control (Wes Welker).  When given the opportunity, he stepped up and played well.  He didn't play well just because Tom Brady was throwing the ball to him... he played well.  Period, and end of story, really.  He ran the right routes and he ran them well, and he caugh the ball when it was thrown to him.  What more can you ask of a receiver?  He is a good player and given the opportunity to shine, he shined.

 

Players who aren't really starters because someone else was entrenched in the position already, they are more and more frequently proving that they should be starters in this league when given the chance.  Look at Nick Foles, Colin Kaepernick, even Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady were once on the bench before they got a chance to get on the field.

Edelman stepped up to the plate, worked very hard, and shined.  But I don't think he does that on almost any other team.  Brady was the spark that made Edelman shine.

 

I don't think Edelman would be nearly as successful under Flacco.  But that's all I'll say about it, I shouldn't be derailing this as a mod lol.

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People are asking me which QB I think would thrive in the offense we had this past year, and the only one that comes to mind is Tom Brady.  He has a good line, but an average running game and (at best) average WRs.  Not the same thing the Ravens have, but I think Brady would make Marlon Brown look like Rodney White.  Tom Brady is also used to turnover in his offense and I've seen him be a really good (or great) QB each and every year.  That's not to say other QBs can't do it, but I've only seen it with Brady.
 
And that's all a maybe.  I think we would at least have 10 wins though instead of Flacco's 8.  Don't take it the wrong way ... Brady is a future HoF'er even if I don't like him that much as a person.


The biggest 2 things that would have pervent Brady from having success in our offense is he struggles with constant pressure, moreso then Flacco imo and he not a QB who can have constant success making tight window throws. Whenever you can get pressure on Brady and keep tight coverage on his WRs he struggles a lot. Just look at his last 3 outing in the AFC Championship games, well at least 2 out of 3 I didn't watch the game yesterday. But that's the area he struggles in the most and that's exactly what he would have had to deal with 85-90% of the time with our offense. Regradless of how much change Brady has around him, his system is still dsigned to get the ball out quick and limit his flaws.
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People are asking me which QB I think would thrive in the offense we had this past year, and the only one that comes to mind is Tom Brady.  He has a good line, but an average running game and (at best) average WRs.  Not the same thing the Ravens have, but I think Brady would make Marlon Brown look like Rodney White.  Tom Brady is also used to turnover in his offense and I've seen him be a really good (or great) QB each and every year.  That's not to say other QBs can't do it, but I've only seen it with Brady.

 

And that's all a maybe.  I think we would at least have 10 wins though instead of Flacco's 8.  Don't take it the wrong way ... Brady is a future HoF'er even if I don't like him that much as a person.

 

I would somewhat disagree, because Brady runs an offense predicated on the short pass.  I think it's simple to say any of Brady, Manning, Bress, Rodgers, could come in here, run THEIR kind of passing plays and route combinations, and succeed.  I don't think any of them would have much success trying to run our "run it on first down, throw it deep on third and short offense" of this past year.  Basically, I could see several QBs come in and have success with the personnel here, but not with the scheme.

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I'd love to know of any QB that has ever overcome all of that.

 

Tom Brady did, amirite?

 

Haha!

 

Kidding aside, Flacco has to improve his accuracy, and that will help the offense, but the main issue is the supporting cast. He does need to fix himself, but that's not what's holding us back.

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