[News] Late For Work 1/16: Ravens Interview Kyle Shanahan, No Request For Norv Turner Yet

[Tru11]

And in Calvin Johnson's case. It doesn't matter who the QB is. And it doesn't even matter if he's open or not. You throw him the ball and because of his SKILLSET, he makes the plays he does. Catching balls over 3-4 men and all types of crazy stuff. A QB skillset is VERY important to the value of a WR. But you cannot discredit the skill set that a receiver can bring as well. Because if that the case then anybody can go out there and be a receiver as long as they have a good QB. Including yourself..

 

im not discrediting any WR skillset.

megatron is a 1 in a decade rare talent that would make any QB look servicable.

however he is a very rare player but not even he would make tim tebow look like a real QB lol.

 

a guy like welker however is a different type of WR who relies on his RR and AGL to get open.

the ball is usually already on its way before he makes the cut , meaning the  moment he comes out of his cut the ball is already there with almost no way for a defender to break it up.

this is what i mean with throwing the WR open.

mark sanchez cant make this throw simply because he is terrible at anticipating the route.

[Hardhitters]

Harbaugh doesn't know offense so how can he determine the right fit for Flacco and the offense?

[Hardhitters]

Cundiff got cut for missing a kick, Hauschka got cut for missing a kick, Huff got benched then cut for Broncos game. Coaches get promoted for losing a season.

 

It's a new 'unexciting' era in Ravenstown

[fusuymada]

Norv Turner is too secure in his knowledge to put up with crap as was evident with his go-round with Browns ownership when they fired Chudzinski after 1 year. Turner felt it was unfair they axed Chudzinski after trading away the Browns running game. He is secure, he's not one of Harbaugh's friends and he speaks his mind. That got about 10 players cut, traded or released just last year. Knowing Harbaugh do you think he's going to hire someone who will tell him the truth. Harbaugh claims that anyone can speak their mind, yes they can, they can also get cut and/or fired. Undoubtably what happened to Wilbert Montgomery (runing back coach to players like Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson). There were rumors of Castillo not getting along with other coaches and it doesn't take a genius to read between these lines.

[The Mom Gene]

Somebody in the Kubiak thread said....  Kubiak for OC... and Shanahan for QB coach.  I say even the other way around.....  Kubiak was a QB, a QB coach, and an OC for Denver.

[The Purp]

I think it will be Kubiak. We've done quite well with Houston's cast-offs.

[TheConquerorWorm]

Norv Turner is too secure in his knowledge to put up with crap as was evident with his go-round with Browns ownership when they fired Chudzinski after 1 year. Turner felt it was unfair they axed Chudzinski after trading away the Browns running game. He is secure, he's not one of Harbaugh's friends and he speaks his mind. That got about 10 players cut, traded or released just last year. Knowing Harbaugh do you think he's going to hire someone who will tell him the truth. Harbaugh claims that anyone can speak their mind, yes they can, they can also get cut and/or fired. Undoubtably what happened to Wilbert Montgomery (runing back coach to players like Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson). There were rumors of Castillo not getting along with other coaches and it doesn't take a genius to read between these lines.

 

So you think Montgomery was let go because he spoke his mind and NOT because he was the RB coach of a unit that finished worse than any RB unit in Raven's history?

 

Better tighten that tin foil, they might be getting in!

[ncraven44]

They can't be stupid enough to hire Shanahan can they?

[Jfravens]

1-Norv Turner. 2-Kyle Shanan. Its like the Teacher and the Student, I hope we get Norv, but if we dont... Hire Kyle Great Young talent, He's a teacher and has a great Offensive mind. Both of them will make Joe Flacco and the Offense Better, Trust me.

[Crusader]

They can't be stupid enough to hire Shanahan can they?

Would you rather have a guy that got fired for not running his  top 5 running back? Jim Hostler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Hostler

[thunderroach]

Worm,cant get enough of the hardask koolaid huh! Man look at what happens to everyone that has an opinion that the little "dicktator" hates! Except for Ray they all seem to get cut or fired! Its all Wilberts fault the running game fell apart and not the fact that we dumped all the troublemakers(MEN)on the team. hardask should coach in the college ranks as he has no idea what to do when people have an independent thought!

[RavensBaltimore]

@JamesA...LAst time I checked Tom Brady and the Patriot's dont have Randy Moss,Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Gronwkowsi, or Hernandez on there team right now and look where there at. In the AFC Championship game while the Ravens are sitting at home watching them on TV. Player's like Brady ELEVATE the players around them. The Patriots right now are playing with a bunch of rookie WR's/TE's right now. And to be honest there recieving corp isn't too much greater than the Ravens. But the difference is their QB. Honestly if you switched the Pats recievers with the Ravens this year Joe still probably wouldn't have gotten to the playoffs. Of course offensive line play has to be accounted for. But the point is we need some receiving talent to help joe out. Because he's not good enough to lead us to a championship with average rookies/receivers. Neg me if you want I don't care. But its the truth.

There is no factual evidence to show that Brady elevates the players around him.  Wes Welker had almost identical numbers with Matt Cassel as he did with Brady.  Brandon Lloyd had far better numbers with Kyle Orton than he did with Brady.  He was also playing better with Sam Bradford until he got hurt.  There was never a mediocre receiver that Brady made great, despite what so many people say.  

 

The biggest difference between the Ravens and Pats is not the qb at all.  The biggest difference is that the line gave Brady all day to throw and opened up running lanes for the backs.  You're right about one thing though, if you switched the Pats and Ravens receivers, the Ravens probably wouldn't have made the playoffs, but if you switched the O-line, the Patriots probably wouldn't have made the playoffs.  Brady has always been horrible when he gets pressure on him.  Last year, when Joe was protected reasonably well in the postseason, Flacco was far better than Brady ever was.  In the AFC championship game, Brady looked like a scared kid playing with grown men.  Imagine if he had to deal with that type of pressure every game like Flacco did this year.  

[RavensBaltimore]

my bad meant his 3rd season was avg.

 

still proves my point that his first 3 seasons where terrible before he got traded to the pats though......

Welker is a slot receiver who never played in a spread offense before coming to NE, so of course he hadn't put up big stats yet.  No slot receiver is going to do much on a team that doesn't regularly use 3wr sets.  In his first 2 seasons, he barely got any snaps at receiver at all.  If you're going to argue that it was Brady who made him better, than how do you explain the fact that when Brady got hurt, Welker's yds and catches were almost identical with Matt Cassell as they were in his first season with Brady?  Plus, Cassell got thrown in there week one, with no time to prepare with the starters, so he probably would have been even better if they had more time to develop chemistry together.  

[TXRavensFan]

Don't forget, Brady's numbers really didn't explode until he got Welker and Moss. I don't think anyone could argue that Brady made Moss.

[Moderator 2]

a group with more than one or two targets that have been around for longer than a year and perform at a decent level.i hope you dont mean to argue that Joe's had consistency...i could never laugh harder.2012 is the first time Joe had anything resembling that ever. He finally got on a good page with Anquan in their 3rd year together, was at least used to Torrey's speed on deep routes, and had a bromance with Pitta, jacoby for deep shots in the slot. Rice catching out of the back field. Finally had something that worked and tore it asunder.This year he had one familiar target in Torrey, then Dallas Clark who he'd never seen outside of of  Colts jersey, Marlon Brown who he'd never heard of before, Brandon Stokley who hadnt stepped foot in Baltimore for 13 years, and Jacoby Jones who he'd never thrown anything but a 9 route to.2011, he was still figuring out how to use Anquan, Torrey was still figuring out how to be a pro in his second season and after his first legit offseason, Pitta wasnt even getting play time because we had been trying so hard to make Dickson work thinking he was the better TE after we jettisoned Heap and Mason.2010: Mason and Heap were the two failiar guys...both of them elderly, oft injured, and soon to be RAvens no more in the following season. Anquan just got here with random Houshmandzadeh out the blue, and nobody else on this team we called a receiver that year or the two prior even deserve mention. demetrius wIlliams, justin harper, yamon figurs,david reed, and the rest of the merry band of broken/ineffective/underachieving/backup to the backup receivers who never saw the field except to return kicks and for good reason.please...please dont even go down that road.Peyton Manning got to throw to Marv Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark for his entire career as a colt. Brady had Welker for 6 years, Branch for 7, Edleman in camp developing and contributing for 5 so far.all your favorite gold standards got that one comfort group:Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, James Jones: Packers their whole careers, except this one year Jennings was a Viking.Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Robert Meachem: Saints their whole careers except the one year Meachem was a Charger.Heath Miller, Hines Ward: Steelers their whole careers. Plaxico's been a Steeler 6 years total. Santonio had 4 in black and yellow, Sanders and Brown both 4 years and counting.Longest Flacco's ever got any single receiver to stick was 3 years...Anquan and Mase's tenures.This the only organization in the league that plays musical chairs with its QBs (often not very talented and/or young, outside of one or two guys) targets every year and expects him to be flawless. it doesnt make sense.

Bravo, I could not have said it better!

[Zcoota11]

After weighing the pros and cons on Shanahan i figured why not hire him.With 3 sons that are d.c. fans I saw a few games.2013 was better for him as a coach.Last season there was a lot of head butting on that team.His players are not our players,his owner is not our owner,His father and former coach is not our coach.We have a great coach and owner.Our players play with heart and do not quit.He might be a good fit.

[Tru11]

Welker is a slot receiver who never played in a spread offense before coming to NE, so of course he hadn't put up big stats yet.  No slot receiver is going to do much on a team that doesn't regularly use 3wr sets.  In his first 2 seasons, he barely got any snaps at receiver at all.  If you're going to argue that it was Brady who made him better, than how do you explain the fact that when Brady got hurt, Welker's yds and catches were almost identical with Matt Cassell as they were in his first season with Brady?  Plus, Cassell got thrown in there week one, with no time to prepare with the starters, so he probably would have been even better if they had more time to develop chemistry together.  

 

fair points but my point basicially is this:

some QBs get quality WRs and have instant succes.

some QBs get quality WRs and need some time to figure out how to use them.

 

when you have succes the receivers tend to stick around.

when salary exceeds succes they usually get shipped out of town.

 

the argument that the ravens lacked talent at their receiver core has some truth with it but also some seem blinded though.

 

boldin is an elite talent who was here 3 years and never showed the production he was expected to.

gets to niners and it takes an offseason to get back to his old ways....

i will go out of a limb here and say that if boldin produced from the start like he did in his last 4 games with us, he would never been asked to take a pay cut or get traded.

 

torrey smith is a quality WR heading into year 4 and if pitta is back it will be year 5 with the ravens.

it will be year 2 with marlon brown and its year 6 with ray rice.

 

yeah well to say we dont have talent or consistency is well ....

[2TimeSBChamps]

Do you think they wouldn't even hire an OC if he didn't want to run a zone blocking scheme?  I would hate to think our O-Line coach could dictate to our Offensive Coordinator what our overall run philosophy is.

 

Hopefully.

 

Are you sure we asked and they didn't grant permission?  I never heard that.  All I know is that the Vikings are the first team he interviewed with.

 

Matt Elam started 15 games and Marlon Brown started 12.  We picked 32ed.  I'm not sure what kind of inpact you were expecting, but I'd say given our draft slot, that's pretty good.

I am not saying the Ravens asked, I am saying Browns would never grant permission if asked

[RavensBaltimore]

 

 

boldin is an elite talent who was here 3 years and never showed the production he was expected to.

gets to niners and it takes an offseason to get back to his old ways....

i will go out of a limb here and say that if boldin produced from the start like he did in his last 4 games with us, he would never been asked to take a pay cut or get traded.

 

torrey smith is a quality WR heading into year 4 and if pitta is back it will be year 5 with the ravens.

it will be year 2 with marlon brown and its year 6 with ray rice.

 

yeah well to say we dont have talent or consistency is well ....

I think Boldin's lack of production had a lot more to do with Cam than Joe.  Cam didn't know how to use the middle of the field, so Boldin was reduced to mostly running predictable out routes.  As soon as Cam was fired, Boldin was dominant.  

 

As far as your list of consistency that Joe's had, that doesn't really apply to this past season.  Torrey in his 3rd year was really all Joe had.  Pitta was out most of the year, Marlon was an undrafted rookie, and Rice isn't a receiver, and even he was limited with an injury.  Plus Jacoby and Stokely missed significant time.  Even with all that, if Flacco had some time to throw, I still believe he would have been able to make it work, but there was no pass protection, and the Ravens averaged the fewest yds/carry out of any team in the last 6 years.  Remember, had the Ravens been able to run it in on 1st and goal from the one against GB, they would've been in the playoffs.  They also led the league in false starts and got negative yds on a pretty good percentage of run plays, so Flacco was constantly in 3rd and long with no pass protection and mostly new receivers.  I don't think anyone in NFL history has ever succeeded under those circumstances.  Even with all that, the Ravens were on a 4 game win streak and in a playoff spot before Flacco's knee injury, which completely ended the chance of a playoff run.  Even if the Ravens would have snuck into the postseason, I don't see how they could have done anything the way Flacco was playing with that brace on.

 

 I think this was a fluke year that can be chalked up to injuries.  I really don't see how it's fair or accurate to make evaluations and say Joe didn't make anyone better based on all of the circumstances that I mentioned.  I think most teams would have been fighting for the top draft pick instead of a playoff spot if they had to deal with all that.

[Tru11]

I think Boldin's lack of production had a lot more to do with Cam than Joe.  Cam didn't know how to use the middle of the field, so Boldin was reduced to mostly running predictable out routes.  As soon as Cam was fired, Boldin was dominant.  

 

As far as your list of consistency that Joe's had, that doesn't really apply to this past season.  Torrey in his 3rd year was really all Joe had.  Pitta was out most of the year, Marlon was an undrafted rookie, and Rice isn't a receiver, and even he was limited with an injury.  Plus Jacoby and Stokely missed significant time.  Even with all that, if Flacco had some time to throw, I still believe he would have been able to make it work, but there was no pass protection, and the Ravens averaged the fewest yds/carry out of any team in the last 6 years.  Remember, had the Ravens been able to run it in on 1st and goal from the one against GB, they would've been in the playoffs.  They also led the league in false starts and got negative yds on a pretty good percentage of run plays, so Flacco was constantly in 3rd and long with no pass protection and mostly new receivers.  I don't think anyone in NFL history has ever succeeded under those circumstances.  Even with all that, the Ravens were on a 4 game win streak and in a playoff spot before Flacco's knee injury, which completely ended the chance of a playoff run.  Even if the Ravens would have snuck into the postseason, I don't see how they could have done anything the way Flacco was playing with that brace on.

 

 I think this was a fluke year that can be chalked up to injuries.  I really don't see how it's fair or accurate to make evaluations and say Joe didn't make anyone better based on all of the circumstances that I mentioned.  I think most teams would have been fighting for the top draft pick instead of a playoff spot if they had to deal with all that.

 

peyton did pretty well with injuries on the o-line and just his 2nd year with new players.

brady did pretty decend with injuries on the o-line and pretty much new targets as well.

 

they dont seem to have much problem to get on the same page with players.

also proved that having consistency with a receiver core isent a pre to do well.

 

that list you refer to are based on the coming season.

if flacco really in on par with guys like manning and brady he should be able to tear it up this coming season.

[RavensBaltimore]

peyton did pretty well with injuries on the o-line and just his 2nd year with new players.

brady did pretty decend with injuries on the o-line and pretty much new targets as well.

 

They may have had injuries on the O-line, but the run blocking and pass protection were far better than the Ravens line this year.  It wasn't even close, so their situations aren't comparable to Flacco's this year.  I don't remember any season where Brady constantly had to run for his life and had absolutely no run game.  I do remember a few specific games where he wasn't protected well, and he was horrible in every single one of them.

[jaycees]

As before I say they need to clean house, especially O line, and running backs. Ray Rice is finished, just look at his lack of production. Great running backs make things happen when there is no hole.

[riseNConquer81]

You are focusing on Welker. We all agree (even though we would never know)what his career would have been like without excellent task masters like Brady and Manning. But every WR is Welker. I see Torrey's drive similar Welker's. Let's see how many pro bowls Torry makes.

 
 

I respect Torrey's game. But he has not reached anywhere close to Welker's level yet. C'mon man, that's a boneheaded statement.

 
 

wes welker prior to being traded to NE had no indication he was to become 1 of the greatest slot WRs ever .......
 
his first  season he was bouncing around the dolphins and chargers as a return guy.
2nd season was nothing to write home about.
3rd season was avg at best.
 
5th season his career took off when he landed with the patriots.
 
you can have a primed jerry rice run routes for you , if you have tim tebow as your QB chances are you wont be getting alot of completions.
 
just ask moreno , decker and thomas how life before peyton looked when it was tebow and orton at QB....
now these guys are a part of history....
 
Some QBs can throw an accurate pass when the WR is open , others can throw an accurate pass before the WR is open.
difference between being good and being great.
 
Some QBs can throw the pass between the numbers for a catch, other can hit you in stride which results in a catch and YAC.
difference between being good and being great.
 
 
Flacco is a good QB with room to get better but he is far from elite at this point....
 
reason edit: made mistake on welker and ninja pointed it out

i left this board yesterday because JamesA was getting on my nerves and i didnt feel like going back and forth.

but for all this arguing about Welker, just going to point out these few things that you're all missing:

1) Welker was doing fine catching passes from whoever Miami's no name quarterback was at the time and/or Dante Culpepper. I looked the guy up not even that long ago, but forgot his name again just that quickly. anyway...

2) This one's for you tru...if you look at his stat line, theres no indication NOW that Welker's the greatest slot receiver ever. As a matter of fact, they look a lot like his Miami numbers. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5941/wes-welker You know why? No its not because he's old and doesnt have it anymore, its because...

3) last but certainly not least, the one thing youre all overlooking about Welker's NE career is that NE's system is DESIGNED to emphasize the slot, in order to cover up Brady's TERRIBLE deep ball. He cant throw anything well or accurate past 15 yards. in New England, the slot guy...whoever that is, is the the number 1 because thats the guy Brady's best going to be able to get the ball to. Welker shined in NE just the way Edelman is shining now, because the entire system is designed to deliver the ball to quick/shifty and/or large/powerful inside guys 3 to 15 yards away from the line of scrimmage and nickel and dime a defense up the field, partially because NE traditionally never had a running game, but mostly because Brady can really only operate in the short to intermediate. Outside receivers in NE are just safety bait, someone who's enough of a distraction to keep the Safeties from cheating up and clogging Brady's favorite passing lanes....the short to intermediate ones. Know why Brady was always scared of Reed? because Reed KNEW Brady wasnt ever gonna test him deep and would fearless be all up in the middle of his short rout lanes, daring him to throw the ball. Welker's success in NE is owed to the SYSTEM (and thus, Belichick who came up with it), not average old, glorified system QB Tom Brady, who really, was made by the likes of Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, Edelman, Moss, etc.

[riseNConquer81]

Are you straddling both sides of the debate? According to your logic Ravens' receivers are not talented, and regardless, Flacco's inaccuracy is solely his fault not the "targets"

no, im not straddling anything.
I'm giving credit where its due: to Quarterbacks for their respective talents, and to receivers for their respective talents. Yes Quarterbacks need receivers to catch balls. Yes Receivers need quarterbacks to throw balls. All that means is that they have a symbiotic relationship, it doesnt mean that quarterbacks "make" the receivers.

Yes Ravens receivers as a whole arent very talented, and traditionally havent been. There's really no dispute to be had there. If you want to maintain that they are/have been, that can be your personal opinion, but its an incorrect one.

and its not solely his fault. No one who actually understands football believes that. If a Quarterback could really do it all by himself, there would be no O-line, and be no receivers. Football is a team game which inherently implies there are multiple factors outside a Quarterback's control that contribute to (or detract from) his accuracy and consistency, to argue that point is an exercise in futility.

[Tru11]

 
 
 
 

i left this board yesterday because JamesA was getting on my nerves and i didnt feel like going back and forth.

but for all this arguing about Welker, just going to point out these few things that you're all missing:

1) Welker was doing fine catching passes from whoever Miami's no name quarterback was at the time and/or Dante Culpepper. I looked the guy up not even that long ago, but forgot his name again just that quickly. anyway...

2) This one's for you tru...if you look at his stat line, theres no indication NOW that Welker's the greatest slot receiver ever. As a matter of fact, they look a lot like his Miami numbers. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5941/wes-welker You know why? No its not because he's old and doesnt have it anymore, its because...

3) last but certainly not least, the one thing youre all overlooking about Welker's NE career is that NE's system is DESIGNED to emphasize the slot, in order to cover up Brady's TERRIBLE deep ball. He cant throw anything well or accurate past 15 yards. in New England, the slot guy...whoever that is, is the the number 1 because thats the guy Brady's best going to be able to get the ball to. Welker shined in NE just the way Edelman is shining now, because the entire system is designed to deliver the ball to quick/shifty and/or large/powerful inside guys 3 to 15 yards away from the line of scrimmage and nickel and dime a defense up the field, partially because NE traditionally never had a running game, but mostly because Brady can really only operate in the short to intermediate. Outside receivers in NE are just safety bait, someone who's enough of a distraction to keep the Safeties from cheating up and clogging Brady's favorite passing lanes....the short to intermediate ones. Know why Brady was always scared of Reed? because Reed KNEW Brady wasnt ever gonna test him deep and would fearless be all up in the middle of his short rout lanes, daring him to throw the ball. Welker's success in NE is owed to the SYSTEM (and thus, Belichick who came up with it), not average old, glorified system QB Tom Brady, who really, was made by the likes of Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, Edelman, Moss, etc.

 

you can install any system/scheme you want , if the QB/players cant run it then it wont work.

 

the patriots scheme is designed to throw to the open guy......

it doesent matter if its the slot guy , outside guy or rb/te.

its why its hard to properly defend them.

that scheme is all about creating favorable match ups and then exploiting them.

 

if it was as simple as it was to just get the ball to the slot guy im pretty sure a team would only have to focus on stopping whoever is in the slot...........

 

Its also a fairy tale when people think the patriots have no running game....

2012 7th in rushing

2011 20th

2010 9th

2009 12th

2008 6th

2007 13th

2006 12th

 

also since when is:

2006 16 GP 67 rec 99 targ 687 yards 10.3avg  1TD 33 FD any indication that this guy would become 1 of the best slot WR ever lol.

im pretty sure if welker stayed on the dolphins he would not be considerd as good as he is now.

 

he can thank bill  for the trade and brady for the chance to play in a scheme with a QB who can run it to perfection.

 

also dont believe the deep pass myth either.

just because brady doesent throw it deep as much as flacco doesent mean he is terrible at it .....

there is difference between throwing it deep for the sake of it or knowing when to throw it deep.

 

http://regressing.deadspin.com/charts-who-are-the-best-deep-passers-in-the-nfl-1469917039

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/03/20/adot-adjusted-completion-percentage/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/29/three-years-of-deep-passing/

 

you can say brady was scared to test reed or you can say it was smart not to test reed.

while some QBs learn from their mistakes others are still making the same mistakes they did in their rookie season...

 

people love to point at how brady and flacco earlier season where similair and they are right.

But brady did take the next step while flacco is well pretty much the same........

 

brady became a hot topic in mvp talks , flacco has yet to be mentioned in pro bowl talks.....

 

i have a hard time believing welker would be just as succesfull in that scheme if it was tim tebow running it......

care to explain why decker, moreno and thomas where avg at best with tebow and orton as QBs but now ravens fans think they are top wrs ?

 

i personally would credit that guy who has 13 4000 yard seasons in 15 seasons played but some seems to think its the scheme and talent of the above said players.......

 

highly doubt flacco  would have matched what peyton did if he was the QB there and im also very confidend that if we had peyton instead of flacco this season we would have a much better offense.....

 

its not a knock on flacco but he simply isent as good as peyton or brady and there is no shame in that cause they are as good as it gets....

[TXRavensFan]

i have a hard time believing welker would be just as succesfull in that scheme if it was tim tebow running it......

Matt Cassel?

Let's not forget that Brady didn't take "the next step" until they got him some real weapons, namely Moss and Welker.

[Tru11]

Matt Cassel?

Let's not forget that Brady didn't take "the next step" until they got him some real weapons, namely Moss and Welker.

 

tom brady is still succesfull without those weapons lol.

 

also matt cassel did produce in that scheme but he wasent as effecient as a brady.

unlike brady cassel was scrambling alot because he could not make the proper reads like brady does.

he had almost 2 times as manny rushing attempts then brady does during a season.

 

understanding where the rush will come from , how the coverage looks pre snap , how the defense look overall will seperate QBs from each other.

some QBs can tell the o-line who might blitz and can communicate on how the blocking should be when passing, others just let the C figure it out or go with what is called.

 

some QBs can go through multiple reads before throwing the ball , other QBs will scramble or panic when the first read gets taken away.

 

brady had way better stats prior to cassel filling in and afterwards brady also had better stats.

so yeah cassel did do pretty well but still not even close as good as brady.

 

does the scheme work? yes.

does it guaranteed everyone can have the same results? no

does this means that the better the QB the better the results? yes

would flacco produce? yes

would he put up brady numbers? no indication he would at this point.

 

just to give you an indication

2007 brady had 50 TD 8 int 4806 yards

2008 cassel had 21 TD 11 int 3693 yards

2009 brady had 28 TD 13 int 4398 yards after coming back from an injury.

 

yeah the scheme shows everyone can produce in it.

but the numbers also show that the better the QB the better the production which is my point.....

[Robbo15]

Harbs doesn't want turner because he is strong minded and wise. Like Boldin, Like Reed, Like Pollard. It is his way or the highway...he threw the captains out of the ship and now is the loan captain. This year our ship sunk- leadership, leadership, leadership. #Accountability!

exactly why we will end up with a yes man

[riseNConquer81]

you can install any system/scheme you want , if the QB/players cant run it then it wont work.

thats a great point and im glad you made it because... 

the patriots scheme is designed to throw to the open guy......
it doesent matter if its the slot guy , outside guy or rb/te.
its why its hard to properly defend them.
that scheme is all about creating favorable match ups and then exploiting them.
 
if it was as simple as it was to just get the ball to the slot guy im pretty sure a team would only have to focus on stopping whoever is in the slot...........

This is also true, and in NEW's case, the scheme is focused on making sure the slot guy is the open guy since, as i pointed out earlier and as was CLEARLY demonstrated yesterday, Brady is UNABLE to take advantage of the favorable matchups on the outside and deep down the middle. Properly defending thme isnt really that hard, which is why Brady consistently plays like garbage against every good defensive team he's seen for the past 3 or 4 years. All you gotta do is take away the run and force him to go deep, because he's bad at it.
 

Its also a fairy tale when people think the patriots have no running game....
2012 7th in rushing
2011 20th
2010 9th
2009 12th
2008 6th
2007 13th
2006 12th

first off i said "traditionally," because i recognize that things change from time to time, and i understand that he's certainly relied a lot more on the running game this year and last more than ever.

second: 20th? 12th? 13th? sounds like pretty average to not good running to me. And when you stop to consider that Miami is consistently in the bottom third of the league in rush defense and is usually joined by either the Jets or the Bills, those ranks start to look a little inflated. Again, Patriots getting too much credit for playing against terrible competition.
 

also since when is:
2006 16 GP 67 rec 99 targ 687 yards 10.3avg  1TD 33 FD any indication that this guy would become 1 of the best slot WR ever lol.
im pretty sure if welker stayed on the dolphins he would not be considerd as good as he is now.

its not. which was exactly my point that you clearly missed. Like i said, those are basically the same numbers he got in denver, and the only reason he looked like the greatest in NE is because the system was designed to get him the ball. See how all the pieces fall into place? lol
 

also dont believe the deep pass myth either.
just because brady doesent throw it deep as much as flacco doesent mean he is terrible at it .....
there is difference between throwing it deep for the sake of it or knowing when to throw it deep.

http://regressing.deadspin.com/charts-who-are-the-best-deep-passers-in-the-nfl-1469917039
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/03/20/adot-adjusted-completion-percentage/
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/29/three-years-of-deep-passing/

ummmm, thats not a myth. if you saw the game yesterday and you STILL want to attempt to argue this point, im just going to have to ignore you, because you'll never win it lmao.
 
plus, i dont even know what im supposed to make of these links, they mostly seem to prove my point. The first one has Brady featured prominently at the bottom of all of the charts, the second one only mentions brady for throws 0-9 yards and behind the line of scrimmage, and the third one points out that he's got some decent yardage and TDs over a 3 year span on a few deep passes, but also mentinos specifically that he doesnt throw very many...which again, proves my point.
 

you can say brady was scared to test reed or you can say it was smart not to test reed.

you can say both. he was scared to and smart not to, because he couldnt; not with success anyway.

people love to point at how brady and flacco earlier season where similair and they are right.
But brady did take the next step while flacco is well pretty much the same........
 
brady became a hot topic in mvp talks , flacco has yet to be mentioned in pro bowl talks.....

aaah, the imaginary "next step."
"boo hoo, Tom Brady's more popular than Joe Flacco."
that's basically what you just said.

i have a hard time believing welker would be just as succesfull in that scheme if it was tim tebow running it......
care to explain why decker, moreno and thomas where avg at best with tebow and orton as QBs but now ravens fans think they are top wrs ?

oh yeah, nothing says "I'm right" like trying to make your point on the back of the worst possible outlying case possible.
do i care to explain? well if you're really that blind, its because Tim Tebow never shouldve been an NFL quarterback. That's like asking why the paper airplane your five year old sister didnt make it to China. Decker didnt even get play time until Tebow started, and Demariyus' targets literally doubled when Tebow left. You couldnt have written a more meaningless "counterpoint." You cant call a receiver average because his numbers arent up when the team hardly ever passes the ball. Tim Tebow has 361 CAREER attempts, thats over 3 seasons in the NFL. our own Joe Flacco doubled that in this season alone.
Pair Welker with any average performing quarterback that actually passes the ball at some point and he'd do just fine. you know this, i dont even understand why you tried to go here.
 

i personally would credit that guy who has 13 4000 yard seasons in 15 seasons played but some seems to think its the scheme and talent of the above said players.......
 
highly doubt flacco  would have matched what peyton did if he was the QB there and im also very confidend that if we had peyton instead of flacco this season we would have a much better offense.....
 
its not a knock on flacco but he simply isent as good as peyton or brady and there is no shame in that cause they are as good as it gets....

these are entirely misguided opinions, especially considering that Peyton was playing pretty bad when he first got to his brand new team and targets that he wasnt used to, and Brady is posting his worst passing stats in 10 years now that his favorite targets are all mostly gone, and he just lost in spectacular fashion while making none of these new guys look like anything special. Also Joe's stat line in head to head matchups have all been a lot better than Brady's as of late except for this last game, but whatever; i'll leave you to your double standards, lol.

[Tru11]

yeah no point arguing with someone who thinks flacco is just as good as a manning or brady lol.