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Tru11

Good or bad reporting?

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well everyone probaly has read this link:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Defense-Needs-Confidence-In-Crunch-Time/77c8c30e-a8f7-4fe7-9751-bfbb29a14d36

 

I know alot of people are saying the defense was bad in the 4th and they need to improve and 134 points given up is bad and such.

 

but how much of this is actuall fact and how much can you actually blame on the defense?

 

well ive looked up all the points that where give up in the 4th by the ravens and ive seen something very intresting.

 

vs Denver 14 points yes all on defense

vs CLE 0 points allowed

VS TEX 0 points allowed

VS  BUF 0 points allowed

vs  DOLP 10 points allowed 7 being a pick 6 lol

vs Packers 3 points allowed

vs Pits 6 points allowed FG after failed onside kick.

vs CLE 3 points allowed 

vs CIN 14 points allowed 1 after an INT and 1 was the hail mary

vs  CHI 7 points on a long drive so yeah defense

vs Jets 0 points allowed

vs Pits 13 points yeah on the defense actually 1 TD came after pits started on their 40 yard line after kickoff out of bound but still most on them.

vs vikes 20 points 6 coming after a INT (failed 2pnt con) by the offense and 14 you can blame the defense

vs DET 6 points failed 2pnt by det can blame defense

vs Pats 21 points 7 coming after a failed 4th down by offense and 14 where turnovers turned into points by pats defense

vs Bengal 17 points 7 on defense and 10 coming on a pick 6 and FG coming after another pick lol.

 

now its a fact the ravens gave up 134 points in the 4th quarter.

 

However there where 4 direct scores after an offense turnover and i question how its possible that these 4 scores count against the defense?

So Flacco throws a pick 6 against the dolphins and Bengals and its the defense fault they gave up points?

Tyrod fumbles and throws a pick that results in direct points while the defense was on the side line and its their fault?

The ravens have a failed onside kick and the defense holds the opponent to a FG and its their fault they gave up 3 points?

Offense fails on 4th down and gives other team good field position and it results in a FG and we blame the defense for not stopping them?

 

how i see it:

14 points broncos all defense.

3 points dolphins all defense

3 points packers all defense

3 points steelers all defense altough drive did start at steelers 37.

3 points cleveland all defense

7 points bengals hail mary all defense

7 points chicago all defense

7 points steelers all defense 6 points part defense

14 points vikes all defense

6 points lions all defense

7 points bengals all defense

 

thats about 74 points you can blame it all on the defense and 6 points that id say is also on them

thats 80 points.

 

28 points came when the defense was watching the offense on the side line giving up direct points.

 

19 points are questionable at best:

3 points came in the steelers 1st game where steelers kicked a FG after a failed onside that gave them the ball on the ravens 38.

6 points came in the vikes game where flacco had a pick on the ravens 33 and vikes scored a TD but failed the XP

7 points came in the pats game where the ravens failed on 4th down on the ravens 48 and the pats scored a TD off it.

3 points came in the bengals 2nd game where a flacco pick was returned to the ravens 20 and held them to a FG.

 

on the fence:

7 points came in the bengals game where after a pick the bengals went  70 yards for a TD.

defense just forced a punt in the 4th and within 2 min of game time they where back on the field lol.

 

now im not saying the defense was perfect or great but to be fair they where not nearly as bad in the 4th quarter as the media and some fans here wants us to believe.

 

 

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Posted · Hidden by berad, January 10, 2014 - adding nothing · Report post

well everyone probaly has read this link:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Defense-Needs-Confidence-In-Crunch-Time/77c8c30e-a8f7-4fe7-9751-bfbb29a14d36

 

I know alot of people are saying the defense was bad in the 4th and they need to improve and 134 points given up is bad and such.

 

but how much of this is actuall fact and how much can you actually blame on the defense?

 

well ive looked up all the points that where give up in the 4th by the ravens and ive seen something very intresting.

 

vs Denver 14 points yes all on defense

vs CLE 0 points allowed

VS TEX 0 points allowed

VS  BUF 0 points allowed

vs  DOLP 10 points allowed 7 being a pick 6 lol

vs Packers 3 points allowed

vs Pits 6 points allowed FG after failed onside kick.

vs CLE 3 points allowed 

vs CIN 14 points allowed 1 after an INT and 1 was the hail mary

vs  CHI 7 points on a long drive so yeah defense

vs Jets 0 points allowed

vs Pits 13 points yeah on the defense actually 1 TD came after pits started on their 40 yard line after kickoff out of bound but still most on them.

vs vikes 20 points 6 coming after a INT (failed 2pnt con) by the offense and 14 you can blame the defense

vs DET 6 points failed 2pnt by det can blame defense

vs Pats 21 points 7 coming after a failed 4th down by offense and 14 where turnovers turned into points by pats defense

vs Bengal 17 points 7 on defense and 10 coming on a pick 6 and FG coming after another pick lol.

 

now its a fact the ravens gave up 134 points in the 4th quarter.

 

However there where 4 direct scores after an offense turnover and i question how its possible that these 4 scores count against the defense?

So Flacco throws a pick 6 against the dolphins and Bengals and its the defense fault they gave up points?

Tyrod fumbles and throws a pick that results in direct points while the defense was on the side line and its their fault?

The ravens have a failed onside kick and the defense holds the opponent to a FG and its their fault they gave up 3 points?

Offense fails on 4th down and gives other team good field position and it results in a FG and we blame the defense for not stopping them?

 

how i see it:

14 points broncos all defense.

3 points dolphins all defense

3 points packers all defense

3 points steelers all defense altough drive did start at steelers 37.

3 points cleveland all defense

7 points bengals hail mary all defense

7 points chicago all defense

7 points steelers all defense 6 points part defense

14 points vikes all defense

6 points lions all defense

7 points bengals all defense

 

thats about 74 points you can blame it all on the defense and 6 points that id say is also on them

thats 80 points.

 

28 points came when the defense was watching the offense on the side line giving up direct points.

 

19 points are questionable at best:

3 points came in the steelers 1st game where steelers kicked a FG after a failed onside that gave them the ball on the ravens 38.

6 points came in the vikes game where flacco had a pick on the ravens 33 and vikes scored a TD but failed the XP

7 points came in the pats game where the ravens failed on 4th down on the ravens 48 and the pats scored a TD off it.

3 points came in the bengals 2nd game where a flacco pick was returned to the ravens 20 and held them to a FG.

 

on the fence:

7 points came in the bengals game where after a pick the bengals went  70 yards for a TD.

defense just forced a punt in the 4th and within 2 min of game time they where back on the field lol.

 

now im not saying the defense was perfect or great but to be fair they where not nearly as bad in the 4th quarter as the media and some fans here wants us to believe.

They not gonna like you.  It's still the defenses fault that the offense couldn't score and to top it off were giving the ball away like free lunch.  You're wasting your time cause people are still going to argue about how they cost us in the crucial moments, like every part of the game doesn't matter.  I'll probably end up checking through the stats(must've taken a minute), but thanks for this.

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im still wondering how its the defense fault the other team scores a pick 6 lol.

where they supposed to run up the field to tackle the guy who got the INT???

also when the defense has to stop the opponent on the ravens 20 yard line and they hold them to a FG, im not sure how someone could argue they did not get s stop lol.
im pretty sure when the opponent has the ball on the 20 yard line they are in FG range already.....

it seems alot of people expected the defense to be like that 2000 defense .......
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Thanks for doingng the research, at the least pick sixes should not count against a defense. Ever. Neither should special teams scores
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im still wondering how its the defense fault the other team scores a pick 6 lol.

where they supposed to run up the field to tackle the guy who got the INT???

also when the defense has to stop the opponent on the ravens 20 yard line and they hold them to a FG, im not sure how someone could argue they did not get s stop lol.
im pretty sure when the opponent has the ball on the 20 yard line they are in FG range already.....

it seems alot of people expected the defense to be like that 2000 defense .......

That's just the way the stats are classified. Since you brought up the 2000 defense, they didn't get credit for a shutout in the Super Bowl because special teams gave up the kickoff return to the Giants.
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Pick-sixes and fumble TDs should not count against the defense. But when you get into 'oh well it's not great field position so it shouldn't count against them' then that's a grey area. If the defense is on the field and points are scored, it is technically 'against' them.

 

These stats have been tabulated like that for as long as I can remember.

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Thanks for doingng the research, at the least pick sixes should not count against a defense. Ever. Neither should special teams scores

Ya its absurd that they do.  I realize as it stands now scorekeepers have nowhere to statistically place those points, but come up with another column or something.  Pinning it on the defense is insane, they're not even on the field lol.

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All I'll say is I'd rather have last year's defense than this year's defense. A poor defense that performs in critical situations rather than a decent defense that fails in those situations.

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all other teams defences face the same issues, and yet we still were dead last, ie most points allowed in the 4th qtr this year.

We failed, when it mattered, there's no way around it
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While you're right, stating the number of points is a bit misleading.

But, the point of the comment was that by not getting off the field we missed 3 or 4 games we probably could have won.

Like in the Packers game, you list only 3 points given up which may be true, but the defense allowed a long completion to Finley for a 1st down and then 2 more 1st downs by Lacy to run the clock out. We never got the chance to win the game bc the defense couldn't force a punt.

Chicago another example.

While the points were mentioned, I don't think it was their reason for saying the D needs to improve in the 4th quarter. It wasn't just about points, it was allowing 1st down conversions on 3rd and longs or allowing completions in big situations.

That is the fault of the defense and something they need to improve upon. They need to make plays with the game on the line.

The offense needs more improvement for sure, but their failings don't excuse the short comings of the defense. Just as the dynamic of the offense typically playing well in the 4th and making clutch plays, doesn't excuse their poor play through the first 3 quarters.

This shouldn't be an offense vs defense thing. All 3 units need to improve. The offense more than the defense for sure, but the defense needs to improve as well. Especially considering how much more talent we have on defense than on offense.
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All I'll say is I'd rather have last year's defense than this year's defense. A poor defense that performs in critical situations rather than a decent defense that fails in those situations.

 

you do realise last year defense was giving up point by bunches during the other 3  quaters right?

if they where coupled with this offense we would have most likely been blownout  in most games lol.

 

the only reason we can talk about critical situations was because the defense kept games close and within reach till the 4th quarter.

 

but yeah last years 4th quarter defense with the other 3 quarter defense of this season would have been great.

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The defense definitely had their issues.  That's undeniable!  However, in my view; it was the offense's lack of capitalizing and seizing their opportunities (that came either from themselves by moving the chains or through the defense getting them the ball back with INT's and fumble recoveries with good field positioning etc.) nearly all season long to score TD's.  Especially, when they were in the red zone.  Joe Flacco even said it himself about his offense; "We're just not good enough!"  They weren't!  End of season...end of story!  Let's move on!

 

#Mili

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While you're right, stating the number of points is a bit misleading.

But, the point of the comment was that by not getting off the field we missed 3 or 4 games we probably could have won.

Like in the Packers game, you list only 3 points given up which may be true, but the defense allowed a long completion to Finley for a 1st down and then 2 more 1st downs by Lacy to run the clock out. We never got the chance to win the game bc the defense couldn't force a punt.

Chicago another example.

While the points were mentioned, I don't think it was their reason for saying the D needs to improve in the 4th quarter. It wasn't just about points, it was allowing 1st down conversions on 3rd and longs or allowing completions in big situations.

That is the fault of the defense and something they need to improve upon. They need to make plays with the game on the line.

The offense needs more improvement for sure, but their failings don't excuse the short comings of the defense. Just as the dynamic of the offense typically playing well in the 4th and making clutch plays, doesn't excuse their poor play through the first 3 quarters.

This shouldn't be an offense vs defense thing. All 3 units need to improve. The offense more than the defense for sure, but the defense needs to improve as well. Especially considering how much more talent we have on defense than on offense.

 

i get what your saying and i do agree they did not come trough at some points when needed but you and many other are forgetting 1 important thing though.

 

ill use the packers game.

 

fact: the last 2 packers drives the defense did struggle and was a let down.

fact: there where 11 drives before the last 2 drives.

 

lets break down those 11 drives:

there where 6 punts

there was a INT

there was a missed FG

there was a TD

there where 2 FG.

 

basicially prior to the last 2 drives there where 9 stops and 3 drives that resulted in 1 TD and 2 FG.

 

now when you consider they played against aaron rodgers who is a top 3 QB in the entire NFL.

 

so my question is:

Did the defense really let us down that game or arent they not the biggest reason that we lost what most like to believe?

i mean the offense had 13 drives resulted in 2 TD a FG,8 punts , a fumble and a turnover on downs.

 

lookin at the last 2 drives yeah lets blame the defense, look at the whole game and well maybe despite those 2 drives the defense actually played great  IMO....

 

That bears well the offense basicially handed the bears 10 points with a pick 6 and another pick at midfield that went for a FG lol.

 

would probaly have been a win if the offense did not hand the bears 10 free points but yeah lets blame the defense lol.

lets also forget that the offense got the ball first in OT and had to punt............

 

personally only the broncos and 2nd browns games where real defensive let downs IMO.

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All I'll say is I'd rather have last year's defense than this year's defense. A poor defense that performs in critical situations rather than a decent defense that fails in those situations.


I'd bet a good amount that the 13 defense would look a lot better with the 12 offense.
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And then there's the Vikings game.

Didn't Flacco throw 3 picks that game?

Not trying to make this a Flacco thread. The point is we turned the ball over 3 times and the game was still kept in check early.
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Defense has taken a lot of undeserved blame. They were easily the strength of the team and the main reason why we had any shot at making the playoffs.

They got stop after stop and watched the offense bungle their opportunities time and time again. There were definitely opportunities the defense had to make key stops and couldn't, but overall they played great this year.
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A great defense doesn't have as much miscommunication in its secondary as ours did.

Or allow runningbacks to plow through the line with ease as often as ours did.

Or have a blitz that is so uncreative that it is so easy and obvious to read like ours was.

Or have a pass rush that all but disappears after mid-season the way ours did.

 

A great defense doesn't get too conservative when it should stay more aggressive at the end of close games.

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I didn't read the whole thing but from what I read it sounds like you're making excuses for the defense.I read Ryan's article about the offense and the one that you linked about defense.Both of them are good reporting!Our past 4 overall picks were defensive players.Our first 4 draft picks in the first 4 rounds last year were defensive players.We traded away our best wr and used the left over cap space all on defensive players.We do so much for our defense in spite of our offense that we hold them to a different standard.They played bad in the 4th quarter of alot of games last year.It's not just about the points they gave up.It's about the games like vs the packers,@ the steelers and @ the browns where they let those teams run out long periods of clock on us to close out games.Even when the offense tried to mount a comeback in denver by scoring a td and making it a 2 score game they let us down.Thomas went 70 yards for a td on the next drive.I wont blame them for the vikings games because the field conditions were horrible.No matter which way you try to twist the stats,it wasn't a great year for the defense in the 4th quarter.

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Every team gives up points that could be blamed on the offense. Given that turnovers and points off of offense/ST happen most every game, you can't just say "The defense only gave up 80 4th quarter points" because you have no basis for comparison. What does the average defense look like without counting points off turnovers?

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im still wondering how its the defense fault the other team scores a pick 6 lol.

where they supposed to run up the field to tackle the guy who got the INT???

also when the defense has to stop the opponent on the ravens 20 yard line and they hold them to a FG, im not sure how someone could argue they did not get s stop lol.
im pretty sure when the opponent has the ball on the 20 yard line they are in FG range already.....

it seems alot of people expected the defense to be like that 2000 defense .......

Pick 6's shouldn't count against the D. Didn't realize it did. Pure garbage.

 

I'd bet a good amount that the 13 defense would look a lot better with the 12 offense.

Yeah but would they have won the SB. Remember we had a lot of injuries last year and got healthy for the playoffs. Don't live by the stats man. 2012 was the better D.

 

A great defense doesn't have as much miscommunication in its secondary as ours did.

Or allow runningbacks to plow through the line with ease as often as ours did.

Or have a blitz that is so uncreative that it is so easy and obvious to read like ours was.

Or have a pass rush that all but disappears after mid-season the way ours did.

 

A great defense doesn't get too conservative when it should stay more aggressive at the end of close games.

Looked they stayed in preseason mode.Lol. Daryl Smith did a great job of replacing Ray but still it seemed like nobody stepped up when it counted. Never good when the passrush just "poof" goes up in midair. There was no outside pressure.

 

I didn't read the whole thing but from what I read it sounds like you're making excuses for the defense.I read Ryan's article about the offense and the one that you linked about defense.Both of them are good reporting!Our past 4 overall picks were defensive players.Our first 4 draft picks in the first 4 rounds last year were defensive players.We traded away our best wr and used the left over cap space all on defensive players.We do so much for our defense in spite of our offense that we hold them to a different standard.They played bad in the 4th quarter of alot of games last year.It's not just about the points they gave up.It's about the games like vs the packers,@ the steelers and @ the browns where they let those teams run out long periods of clock on us to close out games.Even when the offense tried to mount a comeback in denver by scoring a td and making it a 2 score game they let us down.Thomas went 70 yards for a td on the next drive.I wont blame them for the vikings games because the field conditions were horrible.No matter which way you try to twist the stats,it wasn't a great year for the defense in the 4th quarter.

Yeah don't forget about the long drives that closed out games against us. Those count as pts.

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Yeah but would they have won the SB. Remember we had a lot of injuries last year and got healthy for the playoffs. Don't live by the stats man. 2012 was the better D.

 

 

This defense was better than the 2012 defense, FACT.  I can't guarantee they would win a SB, but I say it's highly likely they could make a deep run.  What made the 12 defense look better was the fact that the offense was for the most part putting up points.  How many games did this team get over 20 points?  You realize the league average was around 24 right?  I will bet if you go team through team, you will see the defense probably held more people under their average than the offense was able to reach even the LEAGUE average in points.

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i get what your saying and i do agree they did not come trough at some points when needed but you and many other are forgetting 1 important thing though.
 
ill use the packers game.
 
fact: the last 2 packers drives the defense did struggle and was a let down.
fact: there where 11 drives before the last 2 drives.
 
lets break down those 11 drives:
there where 6 punts
there was a INT
there was a missed FG
there was a TD
there where 2 FG.
 
basicially prior to the last 2 drives there where 9 stops and 3 drives that resulted in 1 TD and 2 FG.
 
now when you consider they played against aaron rodgers who is a top 3 QB in the entire NFL.
 
so my question is:
Did the defense really let us down that game or arent they not the biggest reason that we lost what most like to believe?
i mean the offense had 13 drives resulted in 2 TD a FG,8 punts , a fumble and a turnover on downs.
 
lookin at the last 2 drives yeah lets blame the defense, look at the whole game and well maybe despite those 2 drives the defense actually played great  IMO....
 
That bears well the offense basicially handed the bears 10 points with a pick 6 and another pick at midfield that went for a FG lol.
 
would probaly have been a win if the offense did not hand the bears 10 free points but yeah lets blame the defense lol.
lets also forget that the offense got the ball first in OT and had to punt............
 
personally only the broncos and 2nd browns games where real defensive let downs IMO.


Stopping the first 11 drives, but not the 2 final ones with the game on the line is like a team who goes 14-2 in the regular season but bounces 1st round of the playoffs.

No one dismissed a 14-2 record, but no one remembers it if you don't get it done in crunch time.

Same thing applies here.
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Stopping the first 11 drives, but not the 2 final ones with the game on the line is like a team who goes 14-2 in the regular season but bounces 1st round of the playoffs.

No one dismissed a 14-2 record, but no one remembers it if you don't get it done in crunch time.

Same thing applies here.

 

 

in order for you to end up 14-2 you need the other parts on the team to do good as well.

 

if the defense decided to play like the offense on the first 11 drives and decided to play ball on the last 2 drives we would have been 0-16...........

 

point being that the last 2 drives are irrelevant if the 11 prior drives are nothing to write home about.

 

doubt letting the opponent score on 11 drives and then get 2 stops on the last 2 drives are a recipe for succes........

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point being that the last 2 drives are irrelevant if the 11 prior drives are nothing to write home about.

 

 

 

 

Actually that's not true if your team is within one score with a chance to win. It could be the difference between winning or losing.

 

As is so true in most cases it ain't how you start, it's how you finish that matters most.

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Actually that's not true if your team is within one score with a chance to win. It could be the difference between winning or losing.

 

As is so true in most cases it ain't how you start, it's how you finish that matters most.

 

the only reason its within 1 score is when either 1 part is not scoring or another part is allowing the opponent the score.

when both play well its not a 1 score game and when both play poorly its not a 1 score game.

 

you cant expect perfection from 1 part and settle for other part just showing up when they feel like it.

 

its a team game.

 

if 1 part does great for 11 drives and then screws up for the last 2 drives and the other part sucks for 11 drives and then has 2 good drives , i question if people objectively look at who to blame.

 

unless you expect 1 part to do it all ofcourse lol

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the only reason its within 1 score is when either 1 part is not scoring or another part is allowing the opponent the score.

when both play well its not a 1 score game and when both play poorly its not a 1 score game.

 

you cant expect perfection from 1 part and settle for other part just showing up when they feel like it.

 

its a team game.

 

if 1 part does great for 11 drives and then screws up for the last 2 drives and the other part sucks for 11 drives and then has 2 good drives , i question if people objectively look at who to blame.

 

unless you expect 1 part to do it all ofcourse lol

 

 

I understand all of that and it may be at times the O explodes at the end and makes up for bad D play during the course of a game(I know, laughable pertaining to 2013). And I've said it multiple times, you can't go back and assume that if we score more early that would make up points lacking at the end. Scoring more early means history has changed and you don't know what else might change, i.e., the other team playing differently and scoring more as well. But you can objectively look at what happens at the end and judge whether failure caused a loss because, well, it is at the end and assuming something changes does not change history, only the outcome.

 

I'm not looking to place blame, rather looking what could have been done to win more games. You can't ignore the fact that if the D didn't fold at the end of 3 or 4, chances are that we would have had a much better record. Like you said, it's a team game.

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I understand all of that and it may be at times the O explodes at the end and makes up for bad D play during the course of a game(I know, laughable pertaining to 2013). And I've said it multiple times, you can't go back and assume that if we score more early that would make up points lacking at the end. Scoring more early means history has changed and you don't know what else might change, i.e., the other team playing differently and scoring more as well. But you can objectively look at what happens at the end and judge whether failure caused a loss because, well, it is at the end and assuming something changes does not change history, only the outcome.

 

I'm not looking to place blame, rather looking what could have been done to win more games. You can't ignore the fact that if the D didn't fold at the end of 3 or 4, chances are that we would have had a much better record. Like you said, it's a team game.

 

they played good 11 of the freakin 13 drives.

what more could they have done lol.

 

you expect the defense to be perfect??

 

they did everything they could to keep the team in games.............

 

its not realistic to expect the defense to play perfect for 4 quarters every single drive......

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they played good 11 of the freakin 13 drives.

what more could they have done lol.

 

you expect the defense to be perfect??

 

they did everything they could to keep the team in games.............

 

its not realistic to expect the defense to play perfect for 4 quarters every single drive......

 

No, I and pretty much everyone else expects them to perform when the game is on the line.

 

I'll just give up after this because it's obvious you are just not buying into what is popular belief. but that's OK! lol

 

It ain't how you start, it's how you finish that matters most. That's in football, basketball, baseball, ping pong, curling, whatever!

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