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#1 Tru11

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:02 AM

well everyone probaly has read this link:

http://www.baltimore...51-bfbb29a14d36

 

I know alot of people are saying the defense was bad in the 4th and they need to improve and 134 points given up is bad and such.

 

but how much of this is actuall fact and how much can you actually blame on the defense?

 

well ive looked up all the points that where give up in the 4th by the ravens and ive seen something very intresting.

 

vs Denver 14 points yes all on defense

vs CLE 0 points allowed

VS TEX 0 points allowed

VS  BUF 0 points allowed

vs  DOLP 10 points allowed 7 being a pick 6 lol

vs Packers 3 points allowed

vs Pits 6 points allowed FG after failed onside kick.

vs CLE 3 points allowed 

vs CIN 14 points allowed 1 after an INT and 1 was the hail mary

vs  CHI 7 points on a long drive so yeah defense

vs Jets 0 points allowed

vs Pits 13 points yeah on the defense actually 1 TD came after pits started on their 40 yard line after kickoff out of bound but still most on them.

vs vikes 20 points 6 coming after a INT (failed 2pnt con) by the offense and 14 you can blame the defense

vs DET 6 points failed 2pnt by det can blame defense

vs Pats 21 points 7 coming after a failed 4th down by offense and 14 where turnovers turned into points by pats defense

vs Bengal 17 points 7 on defense and 10 coming on a pick 6 and FG coming after another pick lol.

 

now its a fact the ravens gave up 134 points in the 4th quarter.

 

However there where 4 direct scores after an offense turnover and i question how its possible that these 4 scores count against the defense?

So Flacco throws a pick 6 against the dolphins and Bengals and its the defense fault they gave up points?

Tyrod fumbles and throws a pick that results in direct points while the defense was on the side line and its their fault?

The ravens have a failed onside kick and the defense holds the opponent to a FG and its their fault they gave up 3 points?

Offense fails on 4th down and gives other team good field position and it results in a FG and we blame the defense for not stopping them?

 

how i see it:

14 points broncos all defense.

3 points dolphins all defense

3 points packers all defense

3 points steelers all defense altough drive did start at steelers 37.

3 points cleveland all defense

7 points bengals hail mary all defense

7 points chicago all defense

7 points steelers all defense 6 points part defense

14 points vikes all defense

6 points lions all defense

7 points bengals all defense

 

thats about 74 points you can blame it all on the defense and 6 points that id say is also on them

thats 80 points.

 

28 points came when the defense was watching the offense on the side line giving up direct points.

 

19 points are questionable at best:

3 points came in the steelers 1st game where steelers kicked a FG after a failed onside that gave them the ball on the ravens 38.

6 points came in the vikes game where flacco had a pick on the ravens 33 and vikes scored a TD but failed the XP

7 points came in the pats game where the ravens failed on 4th down on the ravens 48 and the pats scored a TD off it.

3 points came in the bengals 2nd game where a flacco pick was returned to the ravens 20 and held them to a FG.

 

on the fence:

7 points came in the bengals game where after a pick the bengals went  70 yards for a TD.

defense just forced a punt in the 4th and within 2 min of game time they where back on the field lol.

 

now im not saying the defense was perfect or great but to be fair they where not nearly as bad in the 4th quarter as the media and some fans here wants us to believe.

 

 


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#2 Tru11

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:40 AM



im still wondering how its the defense fault the other team scores a pick 6 lol.

where they supposed to run up the field to tackle the guy who got the INT???

also when the defense has to stop the opponent on the ravens 20 yard line and they hold them to a FG, im not sure how someone could argue they did not get s stop lol.
im pretty sure when the opponent has the ball on the 20 yard line they are in FG range already.....

it seems alot of people expected the defense to be like that 2000 defense .......
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#3 CalvinSmoke

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:44 AM

Thanks for doingng the research, at the least pick sixes should not count against a defense. Ever. Neither should special teams scores
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#4 TXRavensFan

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:45 AM

im still wondering how its the defense fault the other team scores a pick 6 lol.

where they supposed to run up the field to tackle the guy who got the INT???

also when the defense has to stop the opponent on the ravens 20 yard line and they hold them to a FG, im not sure how someone could argue they did not get s stop lol.
im pretty sure when the opponent has the ball on the 20 yard line they are in FG range already.....

it seems alot of people expected the defense to be like that 2000 defense .......

That's just the way the stats are classified. Since you brought up the 2000 defense, they didn't get credit for a shutout in the Super Bowl because special teams gave up the kickoff return to the Giants.
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#5 berad

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:26 PM

Pick-sixes and fumble TDs should not count against the defense. But when you get into 'oh well it's not great field position so it shouldn't count against them' then that's a grey area. If the defense is on the field and points are scored, it is technically 'against' them.

 

These stats have been tabulated like that for as long as I can remember.


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#6 Bltravens

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:40 PM

Thanks for doingng the research, at the least pick sixes should not count against a defense. Ever. Neither should special teams scores

Ya its absurd that they do.  I realize as it stands now scorekeepers have nowhere to statistically place those points, but come up with another column or something.  Pinning it on the defense is insane, they're not even on the field lol.


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#7 beasy2487

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:41 PM

All I'll say is I'd rather have last year's defense than this year's defense. A poor defense that performs in critical situations rather than a decent defense that fails in those situations.


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#8 arnie_uk

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:00 PM

all other teams defences face the same issues, and yet we still were dead last, ie most points allowed in the 4th qtr this year.

We failed, when it mattered, there's no way around it

Edited by berad, 10 January 2014 - 01:55 PM.
removed long quote

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#9 BOLDnPurPnBlacK

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:25 PM

While you're right, stating the number of points is a bit misleading.

But, the point of the comment was that by not getting off the field we missed 3 or 4 games we probably could have won.

Like in the Packers game, you list only 3 points given up which may be true, but the defense allowed a long completion to Finley for a 1st down and then 2 more 1st downs by Lacy to run the clock out. We never got the chance to win the game bc the defense couldn't force a punt.

Chicago another example.

While the points were mentioned, I don't think it was their reason for saying the D needs to improve in the 4th quarter. It wasn't just about points, it was allowing 1st down conversions on 3rd and longs or allowing completions in big situations.

That is the fault of the defense and something they need to improve upon. They need to make plays with the game on the line.

The offense needs more improvement for sure, but their failings don't excuse the short comings of the defense. Just as the dynamic of the offense typically playing well in the 4th and making clutch plays, doesn't excuse their poor play through the first 3 quarters.

This shouldn't be an offense vs defense thing. All 3 units need to improve. The offense more than the defense for sure, but the defense needs to improve as well. Especially considering how much more talent we have on defense than on offense.
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#10 Tru11

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:48 PM

All I'll say is I'd rather have last year's defense than this year's defense. A poor defense that performs in critical situations rather than a decent defense that fails in those situations.

 

you do realise last year defense was giving up point by bunches during the other 3  quaters right?

if they where coupled with this offense we would have most likely been blownout  in most games lol.

 

the only reason we can talk about critical situations was because the defense kept games close and within reach till the 4th quarter.

 

but yeah last years 4th quarter defense with the other 3 quarter defense of this season would have been great.


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#11 Militant X 1

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:07 PM

The defense definitely had their issues.  That's undeniable!  However, in my view; it was the offense's lack of capitalizing and seizing their opportunities (that came either from themselves by moving the chains or through the defense getting them the ball back with INT's and fumble recoveries with good field positioning etc.) nearly all season long to score TD's.  Especially, when they were in the red zone.  Joe Flacco even said it himself about his offense; "We're just not good enough!"  They weren't!  End of season...end of story!  Let's move on!

 

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#12 Tru11

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:07 PM

While you're right, stating the number of points is a bit misleading.

But, the point of the comment was that by not getting off the field we missed 3 or 4 games we probably could have won.

Like in the Packers game, you list only 3 points given up which may be true, but the defense allowed a long completion to Finley for a 1st down and then 2 more 1st downs by Lacy to run the clock out. We never got the chance to win the game bc the defense couldn't force a punt.

Chicago another example.

While the points were mentioned, I don't think it was their reason for saying the D needs to improve in the 4th quarter. It wasn't just about points, it was allowing 1st down conversions on 3rd and longs or allowing completions in big situations.

That is the fault of the defense and something they need to improve upon. They need to make plays with the game on the line.

The offense needs more improvement for sure, but their failings don't excuse the short comings of the defense. Just as the dynamic of the offense typically playing well in the 4th and making clutch plays, doesn't excuse their poor play through the first 3 quarters.

This shouldn't be an offense vs defense thing. All 3 units need to improve. The offense more than the defense for sure, but the defense needs to improve as well. Especially considering how much more talent we have on defense than on offense.

 

i get what your saying and i do agree they did not come trough at some points when needed but you and many other are forgetting 1 important thing though.

 

ill use the packers game.

 

fact: the last 2 packers drives the defense did struggle and was a let down.

fact: there where 11 drives before the last 2 drives.

 

lets break down those 11 drives:

there where 6 punts

there was a INT

there was a missed FG

there was a TD

there where 2 FG.

 

basicially prior to the last 2 drives there where 9 stops and 3 drives that resulted in 1 TD and 2 FG.

 

now when you consider they played against aaron rodgers who is a top 3 QB in the entire NFL.

 

so my question is:

Did the defense really let us down that game or arent they not the biggest reason that we lost what most like to believe?

i mean the offense had 13 drives resulted in 2 TD a FG,8 punts , a fumble and a turnover on downs.

 

lookin at the last 2 drives yeah lets blame the defense, look at the whole game and well maybe despite those 2 drives the defense actually played great  IMO....

 

That bears well the offense basicially handed the bears 10 points with a pick 6 and another pick at midfield that went for a FG lol.

 

would probaly have been a win if the offense did not hand the bears 10 free points but yeah lets blame the defense lol.

lets also forget that the offense got the ball first in OT and had to punt............

 

personally only the broncos and 2nd browns games where real defensive let downs IMO.


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#13 PurpleCityLights

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:26 PM

Nice work.
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#14 redrum52

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:38 PM

All I'll say is I'd rather have last year's defense than this year's defense. A poor defense that performs in critical situations rather than a decent defense that fails in those situations.


I'd bet a good amount that the 13 defense would look a lot better with the 12 offense.
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#15 Moderator 3

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:49 PM

And then there's the Vikings game.
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#16 redrum52

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:52 PM

And then there's the Vikings game.

Didn't Flacco throw 3 picks that game?

Not trying to make this a Flacco thread. The point is we turned the ball over 3 times and the game was still kept in check early.

Edited by redrum52, 10 January 2014 - 05:54 PM.

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#17 gabefergy

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:08 PM

Defense has taken a lot of undeserved blame. They were easily the strength of the team and the main reason why we had any shot at making the playoffs.

They got stop after stop and watched the offense bungle their opportunities time and time again. There were definitely opportunities the defense had to make key stops and couldn't, but overall they played great this year.
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#18 PerpetuallyBored74

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:53 PM

A great defense doesn't have as much miscommunication in its secondary as ours did.

Or allow runningbacks to plow through the line with ease as often as ours did.

Or have a blitz that is so uncreative that it is so easy and obvious to read like ours was.

Or have a pass rush that all but disappears after mid-season the way ours did.

 

A great defense doesn't get too conservative when it should stay more aggressive at the end of close games.


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#19 HomeoftheBRAVENS

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:53 PM

I didn't read the whole thing but from what I read it sounds like you're making excuses for the defense.I read Ryan's article about the offense and the one that you linked about defense.Both of them are good reporting!Our past 4 overall picks were defensive players.Our first 4 draft picks in the first 4 rounds last year were defensive players.We traded away our best wr and used the left over cap space all on defensive players.We do so much for our defense in spite of our offense that we hold them to a different standard.They played bad in the 4th quarter of alot of games last year.It's not just about the points they gave up.It's about the games like vs the packers,@ the steelers and @ the browns where they let those teams run out long periods of clock on us to close out games.Even when the offense tried to mount a comeback in denver by scoring a td and making it a 2 score game they let us down.Thomas went 70 yards for a td on the next drive.I wont blame them for the vikings games because the field conditions were horrible.No matter which way you try to twist the stats,it wasn't a great year for the defense in the 4th quarter.


Edited by HomeoftheBRAVENS, 10 January 2014 - 06:58 PM.

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#20 hawkprey

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 07:21 PM

Every team gives up points that could be blamed on the offense. Given that turnovers and points off of offense/ST happen most every game, you can't just say "The defense only gave up 80 4th quarter points" because you have no basis for comparison. What does the average defense look like without counting points off turnovers?


Edited by hawkprey, 10 January 2014 - 07:21 PM.

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