Dismal Offensive Line - scheme or personnel?

[FlocksGottaFeed]

I have actually stopped reacting to all of the bad and I think once the draft and combine get started the focus can shift for the fanbase. I think our future oline is already on the roster I mentioned it before if Jensen hadn't of been hurt and if wagner was prepared to step into a starting role would this season have  been different . If you look at the roster the scheme wasn't a rash decision this wasn't spur of the moment they drafted specifically for this.in all the bad the fourth quarter breakdowns the historically bad offense we were improving toward the end of the season and things were starting to work and this is a successful scheme other teams use is.I'm not sold on Castillo time will tell the tale on that.

Absolutely in agreement here.

[Fred Sanford]

The line was somewhat ok pass blocking, too many free runners like AJ Hawk, but they were average/below average.  The run blocking, of course, was abysmal.

 

Monroe is like most left tackles, a good finesse pass blocker but not a mauler run blocking.  Not bad, not great, just ok.

 

Shipley, being an undersized center, you would expect to be athletic and quick but undersized and overpowered vs. big defensive tackles.  The problem is he wasn't even quick or athletic, one case being where Brandon Spikes did a matador "toro!" on him with one simple side step and Shipley just blocked air while Spikes blew up the play.  He committed a lot of penalties as expected, he wasn't overpowering, he wasn't athletic.  I know the guy was out of position but we've got to do better than THAT.  

 

You knew Osemele was in trouble when Star Lotuleilei and Kawann Short, rookies, manhandled him in the preseason.  I guess we'll chalk that up to the back spasms and hope/assume he'll be back to a good LG next year.

 

Gino much like Shipley, not incredibly athletic or powerful.  A lot of it was mental, our guys not playing stunts right and having too many free runners.  His anchor was poor in pass protection, a bit like Chris Chester used to be.  Chris Myers in Houston is smaller than Gino and dominant, so Gino's not doomed to the "too small" category forever.  He had some promise, more than Shipley, I'd be willing to let him and Jensen compete next year along with a serviceable cheap free agent center.

 

Yanda at 70% was a slightly above average o-lineman, but nothing like himself.  Best you can do is hope the offseason gets that shoulder healed up and he's back to his dominant self.

 

Oher is generally good at pass pro, but when he gets beat he doesn't even try to recover, which is silly because the play isn't necessarily over.  Joe would side step rushers and could use Oher hustling back after getting beat to buy more time.  Nope, Oher would just pull his pants up and stare.  Run blocking, horrendous, always has been, LT, RT, rookie year.  Plays too high, doesn't drive block, doesn't seem interested in holding blocks or moving guys around.  Once in a blue moon looks like a mauler, pushing guys around even after the whistle.  Other 100 plays in a row, nothing.  His penalties are bad, but his run blocking is far worse.

 

Dickson was also apparently a horrendous run blocker this year, according to PFF.  Dallas Clark of course was hardly Mark Bruener himself.

 

The extent to which the coaches are responsible for this is hard to say.  They could be doing horrible coaching, trying to have guys do stuff they can't pickup as the season goes along, or are not suited for.  They could be doing wonderful coaching with a brilliant scheme but our guys just stunk.  There's plenty of ineptitude to go around, both the coaches and players clearly share the blame, how much is on each side is hard to tell.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

News Flash....Copy the Seahawks blocking scheme and start running downhill. Use Leach the way he is supposef to be used and start running north south

[FlocksGottaFeed]

well thats because McNabb wasent that great in reading a defense and well new flash flacco is that great either lol.

McNabb is also more mobile/athletic Flacco...

between 1999 and 2009 in those 11 seasons McNabb only has 4 season where he played all 16 games......

 

also are you sure you aint making up 7 seconds??

i have yet to see a QB stand in a pocket for 7 seconds without any pressure lol.

QB can run around for 7 seconds before passing though lol.

 

 

Also in 2010 vick was the QB for the eagles since McNabb was shipped to the skins and the eagles allowed 49 sacks.

 

guys like tra thomas and shawn andrews where pro bowl selections under castillo but they where high 1st round picks as well...

jason peters was already a pro bowl selection with the bills before landing on the eagles.

 

not diminishing  certain accomplishments but a deeper look tells more though.

 

in the end all i would say is that QBs got sacked alot and rarely finished a season healthy.

those QBs where alot more athletic then our current QB.

those o-lines had some pretty talented players.

id trade in certain stats for a healthy QB and wins lol.

i highly doubt 30+ sacks can be all contributed to the QB trying to make plays all the time...

I definitely agreed with some of your points and concerns regarding our offensive struggles this season, but I'm still convinced that we are only an off-season away from seeing very different results in 2014. I still feel that what we need most to improve is continuity. It will take 2014 at the very least to see the true results of the FO plan to keep us competitive into the future.

 

As far as those past sack totals (used as an uncertainty motivation bullet point) of Castillo's OL coaching are concerned, I just added in a little clarity to the circumstances. .Note: Average times a NFL QB gets sacked per season approx. 20+ in a good year. When adding in a QB that extends plays on at least 3 plays per game the sack total goes up by approx. 10+ sacks per year. McNabb did extraordinary things to the extend plays in his career with the Eagles. Those extra sack totals were collateral damage to the Eagles FO and for their FO not a reflection of OL coaching. The same scenario took place in 2010 with Vick and Kolb (over 4100 yards passing) 'high risk/high reward' scheme.  That being said, the Ravens have a totally different offensive philosophy with different personnel. There was respectable improvement with the run and pass blocking as the season ended (although it didn't show on the scoreboard sometimes). imo - Let's just let the pros do what they do and see where it takes us. I believe those sack numbers from 2013 will go down and the run will be revived, as well.

p.s. - I'm an avant football fan, but I'd rather focus on our Ravens not the Eagles.

[The Mom Gene]

News Flash....Copy the Seahawks blocking scheme and start running downhill. Use Leach the way he is supposef to be used and start running north south

I would agree, except that it's my opinion that Rice and Leach don't work together well...  still.  I think we'd have used Leach more had that been the case.

[T3hRaven]

He has KO's size but he's neither athletic or mobile, dude was running a 5.4 forty even before the injuries slowed him down.

 

He has no power either, he's one of the softest OL I can remember seeing.

[omar586]

He has no power either, he's one of the softest OL I can remember seeing.

i agree, i thought harewood was better the Jah, especially when he started at LG.

[The Raven]

News Flash....Copy the Seahawks blocking scheme and start running downhill. Use Leach the way he is supposef to be used and start running north south

 

Seahawks actually use a LOT of zone blocking. Like a LOT. See, it starts to look like the RB is running downhill when it's actually executed well. They get off the ball and open up holes fast. Lynch barely has to wait for it. 

 

New England uses a lot of it too, and they put on a clinic tonight. 

[The Raven]

Anyone watching Denver right now? Running the zone and having some success. Hmm...

[Inqui]

I think the FO's made their statement. They seem happy with their scheme and have every intent to upgrade their personnel (and to be fair, an o-line is really only as strong as the weakest link). Provided they trim the excess coaching staff, I can live with Castillo getting at least a full season as OLC.

 

I don't think he'll pioneer the first ever 0-sack season (has that ever happened before?), but I do think it's reasonable to expect an upgrade by the end of next season. Joe isn't Peyton (not like that's anything to be ashamed of, mind), and I do think he needs at least a middle-of-the-pack o-line to function at his best.

[Tru11]

Anyone watching Denver right now? Running the zone and having some success. Hmm...

 

did you watch the ravens this year?

 

0 succes.

 

did you watch them the years before thisseason.

5 play off appearances and 1 SB win.

 

Did you seen who is NE and denver QB?

HOF potential GOAT candidates.

 

Have you seen our QB?

not even pro bowl worthy....

 

When you look at denver/NE what do you see?

Scheme based on personel.

 

When you look at ravens this season?

Scheme forced on personel.

 

stop defending castillo.

same 4 guys blocking in 1 scheme wins us a SB, next season different scheme its god awefull.

yet its the personel.......

 

im pretty sure if NE/Denver decide to run the read option with manning and brady like 49rs, panthers and hawks i doubt they would see as much succes as the other teams.

maybe you can blame manning and brady for not being able to trick and outrun defenders or perhaps you can conclude its not the smartest scheme change to do....

[BloodRaven]

i agree, i thought harewood was better the Jah, especially when he started at LG.

 

He was/is better than Jah. But you know how Harbaugh is.

[Tru11]

BTW who wants to guess who was the genius who turned 1 if not the best man press cover  CB of the last couple of years into the laughing stock of the NFL and probaly 1 of greatest bust FA signings of certainly the last 10 years ........

 

my guess it was a personel problem as well since the scheme was solid.........

[The Raven]

did you watch the ravens this year?

 

0 succes.

 

did you watch them the years before thisseason.

5 play off appearances and 1 SB win.

 

Did you seen who is NE and denver QB?

HOF potential GOAT candidates.

 

Have you seen our QB?

not even pro bowl worthy....

 

When you look at denver/NE what do you see?

Scheme based on personel.

 

When you look at ravens this season?

Scheme forced on personel.

 

stop defending castillo.

same 4 guys blocking in 1 scheme wins us a SB, next season different scheme its god awefull.

yet its the personel.......

 

im pretty sure if NE/Denver decide to run the read option with manning and brady like 49rs, panthers and hawks i doubt they would see as much succes as the other teams.

maybe you can blame manning and brady for not being able to trick and outrun defenders or perhaps you can conclude its not the smartest scheme change to do....

 

Yeah, I know it's really hard to understand but of the four teams remaining in the playoffs, they all make strong use of the ZBS. Yes, four teams playing in Championship weekend use the ZBS. Fact.

[Tru11]

Yeah, I know it's really hard to understand but of the four teams remaining in the playoffs, they all make strong use of the ZBS. Yes, four teams playing in Championship weekend use the ZBS. Fact.

 

so according to you the ZBS is the reason they came this far?

 

having manning or brady at QB doesent matter?

having the top defenses doesent matter?

having QBs that can run for their lives doesent matter?

having the same scheme for a couple of years doesent matter?

 

ravens beat 3 of them last year in a row with a different scheme is forgotten?

[The Raven]

so according to you the ZBS is the reason they came this far?

 

having manning or brady at QB doesent matter?

having the top defenses doesent matter?

having QBs that can run for their lives doesent matter?

having the same scheme for a couple of years doesent matter?

 

ravens beat 3 of them last year in a row with a different scheme is forgotten?

 

When did I say any of that? I'm just saying that if four championship teams use the scheme, it can't possibly be that bad. Heck, the Patriots put up 40 whatever points with just the running game. NE's success this year, and this might be blasphemous, had more to do with their run game and ability to control the clock and less to do with Brady. They thrashed the Colts with zone plays and gap plays.

 

They perfectly utilized two different blocking schemes, yet the fans on this board think the ZBS is a problem and that OL only fit one scheme or the other. So, if a team can use two blocking schemes well, and we can't use either well, how is personnel NOT to blame?

[Tru11]

When did I say any of that? I'm just saying that if four championship teams use the scheme, it can't possibly be that bad. Heck, the Patriots put up 40 whatever points with just the running game. NE's success this year, and this might be blasphemous, had more to do with their run game and ability to control the clock and less to do with Brady. They thrashed the Colts with zone plays and gap plays.

 

They perfectly utilized two different blocking schemes, yet the fans on this board think the ZBS is a problem and that OL only fit one or the other. 

 

i never said the scheme itself is bad.

when it fits your team and you have the players to run it then go ahead.

 

however it was clear it did not work for the ravens and the players who played good the year before where terrible this season.

that goes for even yanda....

 

so are the 4 players that played great and won the SB the year before really that terrible or was it more the scheme and the issues it caused?

 

its clear castillo has a scheme he believes in and will stick with it even when it doesent work or doesent suit the players.

usually that doesent end well for the players.

 

just ask asomugha how quick a player can go from being the best to being the worst........

 

my opinion: i rather play by the strength of the players rather then go by the strength of the scheme.

[The Raven]

i never said the scheme itself is bad.

when it fits your team and you have the players to run it then go ahead.

 

however it was clear it did not work for the ravens and the players who played good the year before where terrible this season.

that goes for even yanda....

 

so are the 4 players that played great and won the SB the year before really that terrible or was it more the scheme and the issues it caused?

 

its clear castillo has a scheme he believes in and will stick with it even when it doesent work or doesent suit the players.

usually that doesent end well for the players.

 

just ask asomugha how quick a player can go from being the best to being the worst........

 

my opinion: i rather play by the strength of the players rather then go by the strength of the scheme.

 

Okay. Well, they weren't the exact four players, firstly. Yanda came in to the year recovering from surgery and not 100%. KO had a back injury. Gino was new. Oher regressed. McKinnie got lazy. Then Shipley came in and he was just terrible. 

 

Okay, so what exactly is the strength of these offensive linemen? Everyone says to tailor the scheme to these players but they fail to state what their strengths are and they fail to state exactly why they don't fit the ZBS. 

[Tru11]

so you know you have a guy you know is lazy.

so you know you have a first time starter at center who spend a full year learning a scheme.

so you know you have 2 guys who are injured or coming back from an injury.

so you know you have a guy who played LT and RT and is in dire need of some consistency.

so you know you dont have qualified back ups to replace any of these players.

so you know they just won the SB playing in a certain scheme with certain terminology.

 

And still as a coach you decide to change it all and blame them because it failed.......

[The Raven]

so you know you have a guy you know is lazy.

so you know you have a first time starter at center who spend a full year learning a scheme.

so you know you have 2 guys who are injured or coming back from an injury.

so you know you have a guy who played LT and RT and is in dire need of some consistency.

so you know you dont have qualified back ups to replace any of these players.

so you know they just won the SB playing in a certain scheme with certain terminology.

 

And still as a coach you decide to change it all and blame them because it failed.......

 

The simple thing you're completely missing is that we didn't even just fail to execute zone plays. We failed to execute stretch and the gap blocking schemes we've been using forever. We couldn't even block iso or power. Those are not zone plays, so you know. If you can't convert 3rd and inches on iso or power then the OL is worthless.

 

Another thing that everyone is missing is that it wasn't really a full on scheme change. We've been running zone stretch. We still ran a lot of gap and power blocking. We just added inside zone. How does adding the inside zone cause this much havoc? Changing the terminology was an issue though. I'll give ya that and I'm on board with that criticism.

 

I repeat: So what exactly is the strength of these offensive linemen? Everyone says to tailor the scheme to these players but they fail to state what their strengths are and they fail to state exactly why they don't fit the ZBS. Can you please explain this for me? 

[52520Andrew]

The simple thing you're completely missing is that we didn't even just fail to execute zone plays. We failed to execute stretch and the gap blocking schemes we've been using forever. We couldn't even block iso or power. Those are not zone plays, so you know. If you can't convert 3rd and inches on iso or power then the OL is worthless.

 

Another thing that everyone is missing is that it wasn't really a full on scheme change. We've been running zone stretch. We still ran a lot of gap and power blocking. We just added inside zone. How does adding the inside zone cause this much havoc? Changing the terminology was an issue though. I'll give ya that and I'm on board with that criticism.

 

I repeat: So what exactly is the strength of these offensive linemen? Everyone says to tailor the scheme to these players but they fail to state what their strengths are and they fail to state exactly why they don't fit the ZBS. Can you please explain this for me? 

 

We bought Leach in to teach us more of the zone scheme in 2011 so yes I have to agree with you.