Dismal Offensive Line - scheme or personnel?

[gabefergy]

This whole Castillo was brought in because he is Harbaugh's BFF thing has really gotten out of control. If he was a nobody than I can understand why people would question the decision, but Castillo was an excellent and respected OL coach for years. He and Harbaugh worked together and had a relationship so he was brought in at the end of 2012 to help. Is it that surprising he was given a coaching position on Harbaugh's staff? I think most people thought it was a good move at the time, I know I did. 

 

Here's a newsflash, most assistant coaches are hired because they have a previous relationship with the HC. I would say this is the case > 80% of the time.

 

I'm not necessarily happy that Castillo will be back next year, but I also don't believe the running game's trouble was all his fault. Maybe trying to feature a ZBS with Bryant McKinnie prominently involved was a questionable decision, but we had also been using ZB plays for the past 2 years so it wasn't a major change, we just added more focus in that direction. It didn't work and we ended up trying different things including a lot more power run blocking, but if you break down the tape there are countless times where the OL and TEs just failed at their jobs. 

[tolucaraven]

They couldnt run block OR pass block. The pass blocking
Has nothing to do with ZBS. Shipley, Gino, Oher were AWFUL...not NFL caliber starters. Yanda had not fully recovered, KOs back set him back. Running backs couldn't make people miss...Injuries or out of shape.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

I don't see this as an option on the poll, so I went with Something Else.

 

Injuries + inexperience + no/wrong line calls + poor/no communication + bad technique + wrong/predictable play calling + lack of pre snap adjustments + poor execution = an embarrassing mess of an abysmal failure.

[Jokerraven]

but seriously where was the coaching????

 

i know some stances give away run or pass but if it was this bad then What the heck? lol.

I saw the sack totals for the years  Castillo was with philly. thanks for sharing that. I told my husband  that Castillo was our new oline coachhe said . vick was often injured lots of concussions he was fortunate to be mobile Joe is not .

[runamuk]

it cant get any worse then last season so lets keep the hope alive lol....

 

also reading the last presser it seems castillo wasent just the run game coordinator but he was actually the offensive line coach only not in name.

he is the offensive line coach now though.

 

 

so uhhhh this historicially bad o-line was infact his doing??

 

also like i said lookin at his last 5 years as the o-line coach , the QB was sacked alot.......

 

does harbough hate flacco???

also dont you need to know who the OC is going to be and what scheme we are going to run before commiting to an offensive line coordinator?

I think your the only one of a select few who caught onto that. since this debate started I like you looked at the numbers of his tenure in philly . there not good  its no wonder  Vick and Mcnabb was running for there lives all the time. yes Castillo has been a coach for a long time but its hasn't been good all the time.  I noticed no word on whether Caldwell is staying or going  or who the new running back coach is not that it matters oline sucks no run game.

[runamuk]

I saw the sack totals for the years  Castillo was with philly. thanks for sharing that. I told my husband  that Castillo was our new oline coachhe said . vick was often injured lots of concussions he was fortunate to be mobile Joe is not .

I saw this too his stats aren't impressive . we can rant and rave all we want nothing is going to change . Best case scenario we upgrade some talent  and  the zbs takes off. worst case another year like this hopefully we can focus on a few areas of change and pray joe stays healthy .

[Jokerraven]

I saw this too his stats aren't impressive . we can rant and rave all we want nothing is going to change . Best case scenario we upgrade some talent  and  the zbs takes off. worst case another year like this hopefully we can focus on a few areas of change and pray joe stays healthy .

here's hoping the wizard 's wand works for offense  as well as defense.

[Inqui]

To be fair to Castillo, he was the defensive co-ordinator for the Eagles while Vick was the starter. Not really his fault the guy got banged up.

[redravenfan]

To be fair to Castillo, he was the defensive co-ordinator for the Eagles while Vick was the starter. Not really his fault the guy got banged up.

but this is  Castillo managed to put his QB on the all-time NFL Single-Season Sacked Leaders list 7 out of 10 seasons as an O-line coach.          

 

and this is on him too:

          

Rushing yards per game: 83.0, 30th in NFL and worst in Ravens history

Rushing yards per carry: 3.1, last in NFL and worst in Ravens history

Rushing touchdowns: Seven, tied for 28th in NFL and tied for second-worst in Ravens history (they had five in 2005)

[FlocksGottaFeed]

I don't see this as an option on the poll, so I went with Something Else.

 

Injuries + inexperience + no/wrong line calls + poor/no communication + bad technique + wrong/predictable play calling + lack of pre snap adjustments + poor execution = an embarrassing mess of an abysmal failure.

Agreed. That's what I'm talking about.

[runamuk]

 and 8 and 8 is not bad allot of teams would take that . who knows one or two games of better play It might make a difference . it won't take much to be 10 and 6 or 6 and 10.  we will all know preseason how things are progressing everything else is pure speculation.

[FlocksGottaFeed]

but this is  Castillo managed to put his QB on the all-time NFL Single-Season Sacked Leaders list 7 out of 10 seasons as an O-line coach.          

True, but those years with McNabb should get special consideration (McNabb was famous for extending plays pass 7 seconds and taking risk which led to record sacks). To McNabbs credit he did produce several wins with his 'high' risk style of play. The Eagles never faulted Castillo. They concluded that 'high' risk would bring high rewards. No coach or O-line can be expected to hold off a rush for more than 7 seconds at this level, but on the majority of pass plays they did. That's why there are so many OL Pro-Bowlers and Division Championships coming out of those years even with the sack numbers.

[redravenfan]

True, but those years with McNabb should get special consideration (McNabb was famous for extending plays pass 7 seconds and taking risk which led to record sacks). To McNabbs credit he did produce several wins with his 'high' risk style of play. The Eagles never faulted Castillo. They concluded that 'high' risk would bring high rewards. No coach or O-line can be expected to hold off a rush for more than 7 seconds at this level, but on the majority of pass plays they did. That's why there are so many OL Pro-Bowlers and Division Championships coming out of those years even with the sack numbers.

you of all people I can't see why you are making excuses for this . your post are well thought out  based on fact not opinion never emotional . you really think he has no responsibility in any of this?

[runamuk]

To be fair to Castillo, he was the defensive co-ordinator for the Eagles while Vick was the starter. Not really his fault the guy got banged up.

 

 

True, but those years with McNabb should get special consideration (McNabb was famous for extending plays pass 7 seconds and taking risk which led to record sacks). To McNabbs credit he did produce several wins with his 'high' risk style of play. The Eagles never faulted Castillo. They concluded that 'high' risk would bring high rewards. No coach or O-line can be expected to hold off a rush for more than 7 seconds at this level, but on the majority of pass plays they did. That's why there are so many OL Pro-Bowlers and Division Championships coming out of those years even with the sack numbers.

I stand corrected Mcnabb wasn't a pocket passer. and I did forget about  Castillo being a defensive coordinator in Philly.

[runamuk]

That is because there are no points to refute. You are absolutely wrong on this issue. When was the ZBS implemented? When was Juan Castillo brought onboard by his BFF? The Ravens' O-line at the end of last season was McKinnie, Osemele, Birk, Yanda and Oher. Before Osemele was shut down due to his back injury, our O-line was Monroe, Osemele, Gradkowski, Yanda and Oher. Arguably, McKinnie became a scapegoat for a larger problem --- a failed blocking scheme. Until and unless the GM and HC stand up and admit they were wrong, the issue will no change. Great coaches always adapt to their players' strengths; they don't expect players to adapt to their style of play. That is one of the fundamental differences between our head coach and Bill Belichek. Our season met my expectations. I would have been tickled at making the playoffs but predicted we would wind up with a record of 8-8 once we lost Pitta. Given the decimation of the SB team due to retirements, FA and injuries to Pitta and Jones. one of the toughest schedules in the league and some remarkable (in the bad sense) O-line play this year, it is amazing how Joe Flacco still managed to lead us to 8 victories. Look at Matti Ice's record this year. The most surprised person in the world has to be Michael Irvin who predicted we would win no more than 5 games.

 

Wake up and smell the roses! This is clearly a coaching issue and Juan Castillo should tender his resignation immediately before he does any further damage. We especially had problems scoring TDs in the red zone with many failed opportunities on first and goal to go. Take it to the Bank, The Raven, if we find another scapegoat on the O-line instead of addressing the more immediate coaching issue, ask yourself how will we score. Quoth the Raven, never more! 

 

BTW, If Michael Oher is released, he will just become another Ben Grubbs or Ray Chester. He'll land with another team where he will live long and prosper. Someone as coachable as Michael Oher can play on my team all day long and anytime. 

 I enjoyed reading the post and I agreed with everything you said well articulated

[FlocksGottaFeed]

you of all people I can't see why you are making excuses for this . your post are well thought out  based on fact not opinion never emotional . you really think he has no responsibility in any of this?

I agreed. He absolutely has responsibility - no excuses. Just wanted to pointout why he had such a long tenure there. They didn't think that sack stat was a measure of his coaching ability. I'm just as concerned as most with the OL play this year, presently I just haven't committed to Castillo being 'totally' responsible although he must hold some responsibility simply based on position title.

[FlocksGottaFeed]

I stand corrected Mcnabb wasn't a pocket passer. and I did forget about  Castillo being a defensive coordinator in Philly.

Cool. I get that and your opinions are completely valid as always. The entire organization from fans to players to coaches to the owner has the same concerns. No one can definitively say what it will take to turn it around including me. I just hope it will.

[jaege]

I was very much aware of Castillo's changes, I was just looking for proof. 

 

So, are you going to refute my four points or just comment about my sarcasm some more?

 

 

Let me ask you something, since you claim to be fairly knowledgeable about this ZBS. The run game did seem to pick up in the last few games. Not enough to get wins, but it did look to improve. You think the line was finally starting to pick up the new scheme? And will using this scheme correctly improve the Ravens in your opinion?

 

As far as Castillo, I guess I am soured by John's coach choices due to the Idiot Cam fiasco. Since he is staying, like it or not, hopefully you are right and he is all that.

[The Raven]

Let me ask you something, since you claim to be fairly knowledgeable about this ZBS. The run game did seem to pick up in the last few games. Not enough to get wins, but it did look to improve. You think the line was finally starting to pick up the new scheme? And will using this scheme correctly improve the Ravens in your opinion?

 

As far as Castillo, I guess I am soured by John's coach choices due to the Idiot Cam fiasco. Since he is staying, like it or not, hopefully you are right and he is all that.

 

I played a year of college ball as a FB in a zone scheme. We ran a little ZBS on my high school team when I was a guard. I'm a student of the game and I study it often. I understand those are some things you all have to take with a grain of salt, but hey, it is what it is.

 

Yes, I think it finally started to click late in the season. In the Cincy game, Pierce averaged over five yards a carry, and our averages did increase throughout the season. The scheme just requires all five guys to do their job, and if one doesn't it won't work. We lacked the chemistry and talent to do it effectively, but it is a simple scheme. There are three zone plays, just three. Inside, outside, and stretch. 

 

Once we get the guys to execute it, the ZBS will make us a very dominant team on the ground. The ZBS simplifies things for the line, and it is the best defense against blitzes and stunts. Man schemes can get blown up easily by a little B gap blitz, but in a zone scheme, the guy responsible for that gap just blows him up. When you can execute the man and zone schemes, you can really wreck a defense. 

[ChrisMPark]

How about we all wait until next season to see if John Harbaugh made the right decision..? Until then, I pray that our Front Office pulls off some miracles.

[Inqui]

How about we all wait until next season to see if John Harbaugh made the right decision..? Until then, I pray that our Front Office pulls off some miracles.

This one I agree with. As long as Juan's the clear boss I don't mind him having a season and a minor personnel upgrade to prove himself. I think people have been piling on the hate too easily this season. I don't think we'll end up looking like the Broncos (Joe's release time is too slow anyway), but I do expect a strong upgrade. Even a middle-of-the-pack o-line could propel us to a top 10 offence if we get the right weapons and OC.

[BloodRaven]

Flip a late round to the Pats for Marcus Cannon or Sebastian Vollmer.

[runamuk]

Cool. I get that and your opinions are completely valid as always. The entire organization from fans to players to coaches to the owner has the same concerns. No one can definitively say what it will take to turn it around including me. I just hope it will.

I have actually stopped reacting to all of the bad and I think once the draft and combine get started the focus can shift for the fanbase. I think our future oline is already on the roster I mentioned it before if Jensen hadn't of been hurt and if wagner was prepared to step into a starting role would this season have  been different . If you look at the roster the scheme wasn't a rash decision this wasn't spur of the moment they drafted specifically for this.in all the bad the fourth quarter breakdowns the historically bad offense we were improving toward the end of the season and things were starting to work and this is a successful scheme other teams use is.I'm not sold on Castillo time will tell the tale on that.

[redravenfan]

I played a year of college ball as a FB in a zone scheme. We ran a little ZBS on my high school team when I was a guard. I'm a student of the game and I study it often. I understand those are some things you all have to take with a grain of salt, but hey, it is what it is.

 

Yes, I think it finally started to click late in the season. In the Cincy game, Pierce averaged over five yards a carry, and our averages did increase throughout the season. The scheme just requires all five guys to do their job, and if one doesn't it won't work. We lacked the chemistry and talent to do it effectively, but it is a simple scheme. There are three zone plays, just three. Inside, outside, and stretch. 

 

Once we get the guys to execute it, the ZBS will make us a very dominant team on the ground. The ZBS simplifies things for the line, and it is the best defense against blitzes and stunts. Man schemes can get blown up easily by a little B gap blitz, but in a zone scheme, the guy responsible for that gap just blows him up. When you can execute the man and zone schemes, you can really wreck a defense. 

you have been reading the forums and learning that's awesome.

[redravenfan]

I have actually stopped reacting to all of the bad and I think once the draft and combine get started the focus can shift for the fanbase. I think our future oline is already on the roster I mentioned it before if Jensen hadn't of been hurt and if wagner was prepared to step into a starting role would this season have  been different . If you look at the roster the scheme wasn't a rash decision this wasn't spur of the moment they drafted specifically for this.in all the bad the fourth quarter breakdowns the historically bad offense we were improving toward the end of the season and things were starting to work and this is a successful scheme other teams use is.I'm not sold on Castillo time will tell the tale on that.

speaking of draft if there's a pass rusher Ozzie likes or say Clinton Dix is there , that shiny new wide receiver is not getting picked in the first round. Joe will get  undrafted rookie free agents and he will have to make do like always. everyone is pinning there hopes on Jensen he hasn't taken one nfl snap and he is going to come in and save the line how about lets see him play one game and go from there.

[Jokerraven]

I stand corrected Mcnabb wasn't a pocket passer. and I did forget about  Castillo being a defensive coordinator in Philly.

Nice to see someone admitting they were wrong.

[Tru11]

True, but those years with McNabb should get special consideration (McNabb was famous for extending plays pass 7 seconds and taking risk which led to record sacks). To McNabbs credit he did produce several wins with his 'high' risk style of play. The Eagles never faulted Castillo. They concluded that 'high' risk would bring high rewards. No coach or O-line can be expected to hold off a rush for more than 7 seconds at this level, but on the majority of pass plays they did. That's why there are so many OL Pro-Bowlers and Division Championships coming out of those years even with the sack numbers.

 

well thats because McNabb wasent that great in reading a defense and well new flash flacco is that great either lol.

McNabb is also more mobile/athletic Flacco...

between 1999 and 2009 in those 11 seasons McNabb only has 4 season where he played all 16 games......

 

also are you sure you aint making up 7 seconds??

i have yet to see a QB stand in a pocket for 7 seconds without any pressure lol.

QB can run around for 7 seconds before passing though lol.

 

 

Also in 2010 vick was the QB for the eagles since McNabb was shipped to the skins and the eagles allowed 49 sacks.

 

guys like tra thomas and shawn andrews where pro bowl selections under castillo but they where high 1st round picks as well...

jason peters was already a pro bowl selection with the bills before landing on the eagles.

 

not diminishing  certain accomplishments but a deeper look tells more though.

 

in the end all i would say is that QBs got sacked alot and rarely finished a season healthy.

those QBs where alot more athletic then our current QB.

those o-lines had some pretty talented players.

id trade in certain stats for a healthy QB and wins lol.

i highly doubt 30+ sacks can be all contributed to the QB trying to make plays all the time...

[Jokerraven]

speaking of draft if there's a pass rusher Ozzie likes or say Clinton Dix is there , that shiny new wide receiver is not getting picked in the first round. Joe will get  undrafted rookie free agents and he will have to make do like always. everyone is pinning there hopes on Jensen he hasn't taken one nfl snap and he is going to come in and save the line how about lets see him play one game and go from there.

there's nothing wrong with that you want the best player for your team .the fact that they held a roster spot for Jensen speaks volumes about his potential value and contribution.In other words he has shown them something they like you said it yourself its rare to draft olineman who are ready to start right away . the said yesterday they have a frer agent wideout or tight end in mind the wouldn't make stuff up just to have something to say .patience is the word of the day

[Jokerraven]

well thats because McNabb wasent that great in reading a defense and well new flash flacco is that great either lol.

McNabb is also more mobile/athletic Flacco...

between 1999 and 2009 in those 11 seasons McNabb only has 4 season where he played all 16 games......

 

also are you sure you aint making up 7 seconds??

i have yet to see a QB stand in a pocket for 7 seconds without any pressure lol.

QB can run around for 7 seconds before passing though lol.

 

 

Also in 2010 vick was the QB for the eagles since McNabb was shipped to the skins and the eagles allowed 49 sacks.

 

guys like tra thomas and shawn andrews where pro bowl selections under castillo but they where high 1st round picks as well...

jason peters was already a pro bowl selection with the bills before landing on the eagles.

 

not diminishing  certain accomplishments but a deeper look tells more though.

 

in the end all i would say is that QBs got sacked alot and rarely finished a season healthy.

those QBs where alot more athletic then our current QB.

those o-lines had some pretty talented players.

id trade in certain stats for a healthy QB and wins lol.

i highly doubt 30+ sacks can be all contributed to the QB trying to make plays all the time...

my question is why does this guy still have a job . this entire thread folks are saying how good he is etc etc. this isn't good . nothing that has been said is good .I know the league recycles coaches how can they hire him if a fan knows this about him Harbaugh does too friendship or not.

[Jokerraven]

How about we all wait until next season to see if John Harbaugh made the right decision..? Until then, I pray that our Front Office pulls off some miracles.

if Castillo past success is the predictor of his future worth . we are in trouble or rather joe is.