Dismal Offensive Line - scheme or personnel?

[The Raven]

the proof is right there I provide links for everything I post  so don't call me a liar

 

I was very much aware of Castillo's changes, I was just looking for proof. 

 

So, are you going to refute my four points or just comment about my sarcasm some more?

[redravenfan]

the proof is right there I provide links for everything I post  so don't call me a liar

+100 I remember this thread .

[redravenfan]

I was very much aware of Castillo's changes, I was just looking for proof. 

 

So, are you going to refute my four points or just comment about my sarcasm some more?

everyone already has  . the system was a failure and contributed to this season ending 8-8 all the debate can't change the fact it didn't work for us  period. and yes we have stats to back it up the only important one is 8-8 no playoffs. sarcasm is what remains when all intelligent arguments have been exhausted.

 

and no you weren't and even after you got proof you ranted and raved until another poster said look this isn't right he's correct . the proof is right there . and that link is  on this website and other posters can verify it . btw  the rules of this forum are clear no sexual harassment  mr hugs and kisses and I hope joker  contacts and admin  she doesn't have to deal with that . she provides intelligent argument and that was uncalled for

[The Raven]

everyone already has  . the system was a failure and contributed to this season ending 8-8 all the debate can't change the fact it didn't work for us . period. and yes we have stats to back it up the only important one is 8-8 no playoffs. sarcasm is the last vestige when you have run out of arguments.

 

1: How did you refute my points? I'll repeat them if you want:

 

"There are four things that aren't up for debate: The ZBS works, Castillo is a proven commodity in the NFL, we couldn't execute any scheme (man or zone) this year, and our guys fit the model of zone blocking linemen."

 

Refute those points, and I will happily concede, lol

 

2: John Harbaugh just said said that Juan Castillo WILL be back as the offensive line coach so... :)

[Jokerraven]

1: How did you refute my points? I'll repeat them if you want:

 

"There are four things that aren't up for debate: The ZBS works, Castillo is a proven commodity in the NFL, we couldn't execute any scheme (man or zone) this year, and our guys fit the model of zone blocking linemen."

 

Refute those points, and I will happily concede, lol

 

2: John Harbaugh just said said that Juan Castillo WILL be back as the offensive line coach so... :)

when you miss the playoffs that's considered a losing season and a failure .  and everyone who had any football intelligence knew Castillo was not going anywhere . and posted it repeatedly. and Castillo was a failure trying to implement this scheme here in Baltimore you have been refuted.

[The Raven]

when you miss the playoffs that's considered a losing season and a failure .  and everyone who had any football intelligence knew Castillo was not going anywhere . and posted it repeatedly. and Castillo was a failure trying to implement this scheme here in Baltimore you have been refuted.

 

You actually didn't refute the points. 

[Tru11]

if oher did this for years then i guess the whole NFL is retarded for just catching on to it just now lol.

it seems we got very lucky lol

[redravenfan]

I said it before and everyone laughed they are committed to zbs they do not care how many seasons it takes to be installed and operating correctly or how many games are lost. I said  psl holders need to not renew . at the rate it is going it could take years and years of losing seasons and harbaugh steve and ozzie are on board . my parents have psl for four seats if they renew  to watch this team lose they are nuts.

[The Raven]

if oher did this for years then i guess the whole NFL is stupid for just catching on to it just now lol.

it seems we got very lucky lol

 

Nah, team's have always caught on. The line as a whole was just so bad, that Oher's bad stance made it that much easier for defenses. We weren't going to block a defense whether it was a run or a pass, so Oher was kind enough to let them know which one it was ahead of time. Lol!

[Jokerraven]

You actually didn't refute the points. 

:notwork:

[Jokerraven]

I said it before and everyone laughed they are committed to zbs they do not care how many seasons it takes to be installed and operating correctly or how many games are lost. I said  psl holders need to not renew . at the rate it is going it could take years and years of losing seasons and harbaugh steve and ozzie are on board . my parents have psl for four seats if they renew  to watch this team lose they are nuts.

maybe another season but we need the right personnel . Shipley and oher aren't it . I missed the  conference I can't listen from work . I think everyone pretty much knew Castillo was here to say the fact they let this season get away and missing the playoffs as a result was proof enough that they had no interest in change .and sadly if we lose again they have leeway because of the superbowl win. this is part of being a fan I guess. my husband would rather die then give up his psl fandom doesn't work like that :)

[runamuk]

None of this is true, I was completely aware, but thanks! You have a great day too! :D Hugs and kisses

it is true i'm the one you called a liar now can we move on.

[The Raven]

it is true i'm the one you called a liar now can we move on.

 

Did I call you a liar? Or did I just question your source? There's a difference. 

[Grapple Raven]

Mod Note:

 

We love all our members of "The Flock" here, but it sure does sting when we turn inwards on our own, ya know?  Let's keep the discussion to the game of football and all that comes with it, and leave the personal out of it.  We want all our fans to enjoy discussing football, not have to spend time on defending themselves.  That isn't what we are about here, after all, we have a common ground here... aren't we all fans of the Ravens?

 

Enough of the backbiting and snipping at one another, it takes the discussion to a personal level and has nothing to do with the discussion of football.  It places everyone in a lose/lose situation because no one wants to lose face in a public situation.  If you can't make the choice to back off then you leave us no other option than to help you with that, and believe it or not we really don't like having to be placed in that position, but sometimes we are left with no other choice that allows a discussion on football to continue.  Self editing isn't a bad thing!

[runamuk]

Did I call you a liar? Or did I just question your source? There's a difference. 

your correct you did and I provided a ton of them . oddly enough another poster said  we demoted Castillo and he was going to be fired  you never asked for proof when proof was asked for it wasn't given and now we see that it was a lie. so when you asked for proof I provided it. I also said Castillo was going to be promoted and I was correct got the title wrong but he was  promoted . I get what your saying about juan the system should have worked and towards the end of the season there was progress.  but the childish way this thread had delvolved  im not interested . I do not appreciate being dragged into this childish moronic pissing contest . I know u didn't do the dragging but I have already messaged the other poster and reported this entire thread to the mods. 

[Tru11]

Nah, team's have always caught on. The line as a whole was just so bad, that Oher's bad stance made it that much easier for defenses. We weren't going to block a defense whether it was a run or a pass, so Oher was kind enough to let them know which one it was ahead of time. Lol!

 

but seriously where was the coaching????

 

i know some stances give away run or pass but if it was this bad then What the heck? lol.

[Dr. Kelley]

Well castillo has been made o line coach. Guess harbaughs giving up on next season too just to keep his buddies in house.

[Inqui]

I suspect the problems with Castillo are overblown on this forum. I don't mind him taking the big job on the line for at least a season - as long as we have a clear alpha.

 

So, from the presser today it sounds like Oher's gone, Gino's set for a demotion and the o-line staff should get thinned out a bit. Definitely reasons to be optimistic imo.

[runamuk]

. 

Well castillo has been made o line coach. Guess harbaughs giving up on next season too just to keep his buddies in house.

It was starting to take at the end of last season how long it takes is anyone guess. I'm optimistic with a few upgrades maybe it will be more successful this time around allot of teams run this successfully and have high powered offenses as a result.

[runamuk]

 

I suspect the problems with Castillo are overblown on this forum. I don't mind him taking the big job on the line for at least a season - as long as we have a clear alpha.

 

So, from the presser today it sounds like Oher's gone, Gino's set for a demotion and the o-line staff should get thinned out a bit. Definitely reasons to be optimistic imo.

just like they were with Cameron I think we all were naïve myself included to think the scheme  changes could be successful and accomplished with just one season . its clear harbaugh wants this who knows maybe  we will have a functioning offense this season we can be optimistic, if not three or four losing seasons is not bad after winning the superbowl not everyone can be the patriots and be successful every year. regardless i'm along for the ride win or lose. check out the backup center for the chargers. he has been mentioned in the fa forums . if gino is out he  could be a good rental

[The Raven]

 

 

just like they were with Cameron I think we all were naïve myself included to think the scheme  changes could be successful and accomplished with just one season . its clear harbaugh wants this who knows maybe  we will have a functioning offense this season we can be optimistic, if not three or four losing seasons is not bad after winning the superbowl not everyone can be the patriots and be successful every year. regardless i'm along for the ride win or lose

 

 

Well the thing is, just about everyone uses the ZBS. I don't think any team doesn't use at least one part of it. It's not some crazy, wack job, out there scheme. It's a commonly used and very popular scheme. I don't think it's unreasonable for the coaches to expect their players learn a scheme that is comprised of three plays and is used all over the league.

[gabefergy]

I don't see any way the blame can be placed squarely on either the coaches or the players. They are all at fault. Castillo is a proven OL coach, but part of the problem might have been him coming in and trying to be the boss when we already had an OL coach. Looking back that was a bad situation, and it makes sense there would be confusion and miscommunication on the field.

The players were also at fault. Not only was there major personnel turnover, but three of our OL were flat out awful. Simply put Oher does not belong on the football field and Shipley was an abomination at LG. Gino was worse in pass blocking than run blocking, but that's not saying much. And don't get me started on what McKinnie was doing for the first month of the season. McKinnue and Oher are two major reasons why our ZBS did not work (and Dickson, possibly the worst blocking TE in the league).

As The Raven has pointed out, the ZBS is not hard, but it does require everyone doing their job properly. One weaklink and boom, it all goes. We had a lot of weak links this year. Whether it was Oher or Dickson losing backside contain, or Gino being unable to make a reach block, every time one of these errors happened it turned into a negative play. And these errors happened a lot.

[Tru11]

it cant get any worse then last season so lets keep the hope alive lol....

 

also reading the last presser it seems castillo wasent just the run game coordinator but he was actually the offensive line coach only not in name.

he is the offensive line coach now though.

 

 

so uhhhh this historicially bad o-line was infact his doing??

 

also like i said lookin at his last 5 years as the o-line coach , the QB was sacked alot.......

 

does harbough hate flacco???

also dont you need to know who the OC is going to be and what scheme we are going to run before commiting to an offensive line coordinator?

[sflegend89]

OL and offense as a whole needs to be #1 priority in the draft and free agency. How many of us on here were saying the offense got shafted during last offseason and ended up being completely right (unfortunately). The defense will take care of itself at the end of the day, the offense needs a complete overhaul. I've never been so disgusted by our offense in the Harbaugh era. We have  A LOT to work on this offseason on that side of the ball. I'm really worried about the run game issues carrying into next year, we have to be extremely thorough and get this sorted out.

[Jillester]

AGREED...  Inexperience = mistakes on the line.

 

I'm not sold on this summation because only one person (Gino) on the OL had no prior experience in the league.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

[good_n_purple]

Can't we have a "Both" category?  Even if the personnel suck (as Gradkowski, and Shipley do) if they just stay in their lane and get in the way of their assignment half the battle is won.  Yeah sure bums like Gradkowski/Shipley will be overmatched, but htere is some transition time while that happens.  But it seemed like they out-and-out whiffed too often.  They did not know who to block.  So, I am pointing more to scheme.

[jaege]

1: How did you refute my points? I'll repeat them if you want:

 

"There are four things that aren't up for debate: The ZBS works, Castillo is a proven commodity in the NFL, we couldn't execute any scheme (man or zone) this year, and our guys fit the model of zone blocking linemen."

 

Refute those points, and I will happily concede, lol

 

2: John Harbaugh just said said that Juan Castillo WILL be back as the offensive line coach so... :)

 Okay, so lets look at your points.

1.

  A. ZBS does work, for many teams and has for years. Can't argue there.

  B. Castillo may be a proven commodity for some teams but there is vast evidence that every good coach does not do well with every team. That is also a fact. So just because he was useful elsewhere does not mean he will be here.

  C. and D are actually opinion, not fact.

 

2. Regrettably this is a fact, though not surprising. John has that hard headed loyalty to his BFFs regardless of how well they do with the team. I am not sure this team can win despite the coaching like the team under Cam (the Idiot) did. We may be in store for more of the same next year, unless Ozzie can replace a lot of player.

[emcdonald0]

Oh you helped our line become the absolute worst in the league last year? Here enjoy this promotion.

 

This team is now run like the government.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

You actually didn't refute the points. 

 

That is because there are no points to refute. You are absolutely wrong on this issue. When was the ZBS implemented? When was Juan Castillo brought onboard by his BFF? The Ravens' O-line at the end of last season was McKinnie, Osemele, Birk, Yanda and Oher. Before Osemele was shut down due to his back injury, our O-line was Monroe, Osemele, Gradkowski, Yanda and Oher. Arguably, McKinnie became a scapegoat for a larger problem --- a failed blocking scheme. Until and unless the GM and HC stand up and admit they were wrong, the issue will no change. Great coaches always adapt to their players' strengths; they don't expect players to adapt to their style of play. That is one of the fundamental differences between our head coach and Bill Belichek. Our season met my expectations. I would have been tickled at making the playoffs but predicted we would wind up with a record of 8-8 once we lost Pitta. Given the decimation of the SB team due to retirements, FA and injuries to Pitta and Jones. one of the toughest schedules in the league and some remarkable (in the bad sense) O-line play this year, it is amazing how Joe Flacco still managed to lead us to 8 victories. Look at Matti Ice's record this year. The most surprised person in the world has to be Michael Irvin who predicted we would win no more than 5 games.

 

Wake up and smell the roses! This is clearly a coaching issue and Juan Castillo should tender his resignation immediately before he does any further damage. We especially had problems scoring TDs in the red zone with many failed opportunities on first and goal to go. Take it to the Bank, The Raven, if we find another scapegoat on the O-line instead of addressing the more immediate coaching issue, ask yourself how will we score. Quoth the Raven, never more! 

 

BTW, If Michael Oher is released, he will just become another Ben Grubbs or Ray Chester. He'll land with another team where he will live long and prosper. Someone as coachable as Michael Oher can play on my team all day long and anytime. 

[FlocksGottaFeed]

Cheers mate. I agree playcalling could well get brought into this discussion. I didn't see what Torrey and whoever else was in on that play got up to, but the routes Dallas and Jacoby got sent on didn't even look like anything out of Madden - I actually recognised the play from Tecmo (that 1991 Nintendo game).

 

I just feel like that play was representative of the season - everything (line-related, at least) except a banged-up KO just imploding on itself. And I just wonder how much of it was on a scheme putting the players in a spot to lose (or the coaches not preparing well enough), or just terrible play all-round. Looking at the talent we have, we should theoretically be better than that.

I think this is still a great post. Thanks again for posting. I definitely agree that it embodies many of the offensive woes of the 2013 season. I think this post gives a lot of us a chance to give opinion, reflection and/or downright pent-up anger regarding the OL. Usually I'm more absolute in my assessments, but you got me on this one. There were just so many situations this season were one or two linemen didn't execute and blew-up the play, QB audibles weren't called and blew-up the play, receivers and running backs missed reads and blew-up the play, coaches didn't adapt to defensive schemes and totally left the OL helpless to the point of embarrassment, etc. that I still have to site the entire offensive unit from coaches to players to game planning (Can you add that as a poll option?).

 

What I saw on this play which may explain my point further:

• Receivers: TE runs right by blitzing linebacker and doesn't stop and adjust to 'hot' route (5 yd gain). (OL Coaching or OL play?) 2 bunch receivers ran deep routes (1 was open by 10 yards down field for a touchdown) (1 was a deep middle decoy holding the safety) (1 released to the outside short for 5 yd gain), none alerted QB of the defensive alignment pre-snap. (OL Coaching or OL play?)
• QB: Doesn't audible to OL, TE or RB to quick 2 step Drop-back and hit 'hot' receivers for 5 yds, takes 5 step-dropback instead. (OL Coaching or OL play?)
• OL: Center holds position, sees 1st LB blitz coming (tries to alert RG), let's him go and takes-on 2nd LB blitz, RG doubles at first then reacts to 2nd LB blitz late, RT alerts RG too late and gave up his assignment in doing so (had he just contained his block there might have been an opportunity for the QB to slightly roll right and complete the 5 yd out), LT and LG were just beat before the last step of the QB 5 step-dropback. (OL Coaching or OL play?)
• RB: Saw the blitz too late to stay home and block or create an outlet for QB (which is unusual knowing that this is the basic scheme for Green Bay) When they rush 5 - you block with 6 (OL Coaching or OL play?) 

Sorry. See what I mean? Who knew? I'm just glad that it got progressively better as the season went on. I still believe that a lot of this will be corrected in 2014 and 'mass' panic reflex changes won't help. imo -Continuity and an intense off-season will be the answer.