Dismal Offensive Line - scheme or personnel?

[jimjim5]

Oher regressed because he's just bad.

Yanda had an injury and offseason surgery. 

KO had a back injury. Back injuries end the careers of linemen.

Shipley is not good as a LG.

McKinnie regressed due to lack of effort

 

Scheme was not the issue, because once again, we couldn't execute man or zone schemes this year. When you can't execute either scheme, it goes on the players. 

 

 

They did zone blocking, it didn't work. In the second half, they did a LOT more man/gap blocking. Still not much success. Do you want him to invent an entirely new scheme? There are really only two blocking schemes, zone and man/gap. We tried both and both failed. 

 

That's a fact. As that is a fact, how is it on Castillo? Wow!

 

and the run and game improved. This was not Castillo's scheme.

[The Raven]

and the run and game improved. This was not Castillo's scheme.

 

It barely improved. We went from, what, a 2.5 to a 3.0? That's on the players....... And even so, it improved under Castillo's guidance. 

 

Even our inside zone blocking improved a bit. In the last game, Pierce did very well running the inside zone.

[Grapple Raven]

This was just posted a few minutes ago...very disconcerting news I think... 

Aaron Wilson ‏@RavensInsider37m

Source: Bernard Pierce likely to undergo shoulder surgery: http://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-source-ravens-running-back-bernard-pierce-likely-to-undergo-shoulder-surgery-20140107,0,6486736.story …

[jimjim5]

Have you never been a student? It doesn't work that way. You cant just tell the line to forget all the crap you were taught and practiced for the last 9 months and start doing it the way you did before. There had been no practice with the old way, no repetitions no reinforcement. If it was that easy to just "do what you did last year" then there wouldn't be any need for mini camps or off season practice. And several of the line were still new to the whole thing.. There had been no time to gell with the rest of the team, particularly for Gino. The line looked lost much of the time. This is a SB champion line now. Did they all get bumped on the head and forget how to play suddenly? 

 

On one hand you have a SB champion line that had successfully played together, and on the other some new freshly fired BFF that didn't know the team, the players or their strengths. Which logically seems to be the thing that tossed in the monkey wrench?

 

Amen, brother

[redravenfan]

It barely improved. We went from, what, a 2.5 to a 3.0? That's on the players....... And even so, it improved under Castillo's guidance. 

 

Even our inside zone blocking improved a bit. In the last game, Pierce did very well running the inside zone.

I don't want to mess up the narrative but by the time they switched back both our backs were fighting injuries .  you said it yourself it didn't work so why bother keeping the man on staff .immediately after joe hit the dirt in detriot clutching his knee harbs should have grown a pair turned to Castillo and said go back to the eagles your not wanted here anymore period . 

[redravenfan]

This was just posted a few minutes ago...very disconcerting news I think... 

Aaron Wilson ‏@RavensInsider37m

Source: Bernard Pierce likely to undergo shoulder surgery: http://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-source-ravens-running-back-bernard-pierce-likely-to-undergo-shoulder-surgery-20140107,0,6486736.story …

how many players are going to be hurt before we can  move on from this nonsense of zbs. Flacco, Ko, Rice and Pearce and Gradkowski

[redravenfan]

I don't think you understand what is meant by "terminology." Terminology doesn't really mean that everyone knows what we're doing. It doesn't mean that whatsoever. 

it was widely reported that because of castillo's changes to the terms used for calling plays the patriots esp were calling the plays as the offense was . I'm not making this up. McKinnie said the same thing after the terminology for plays was changed the defense knew when  it was a run or a pass. don't get me started on Alaska Alaska butt tap, if everyone on this planet doesn't know that's a kill call  then the haven't been paying attention.

 

you and I are two very passionate fans and you can tell we love the sport if I thought for one minute Castillo could help us  I would forget I hate him with a passion and pay attention.i don't like zbs either anything that can injure so many players before it is even functioning can't be good. I just knew we were repeating this year you saw it too 11tds no pics , historic better defense . and to know we tanked on purpose for no good reason

[Chris K]

I'd say it's a mixture of both. Combine Geno, who was supposed to be learning the scheme and technique for calling plays from Birk, as well as trying to become physically dominant, (not likely, he's too small to dominate with strength), along with a scheme change with Castillo. Not going to ever be a good result, especially because of some of the personell. McKinnie sucked, Osemele was injured, Geno is small and spent the year not only adjusting to calling blitzes and trying to read defenses, but also trying to learn an entirely different scheme, then you have Yanda being Yanda, the only bright spot to that point, and Oher, who consistently was beaten by speed or strength. 

 

Monroe came in and helped significantly in place of McKinnie. I never expected too much from Shipley, but honestly he wasn't horrid, however definitely not the answer. Gino is just not going to be big enough to be a dominant center, ever. Right tackle and center remained the glaring issues constantly, with Gradkowski picking up ghost blitzes and not knowing what to do half the time, all the while seeing him getting shoved back into Flacco was not fun. 

 

So, the scheme needs to be changed to whatever it was that helped us go on a torrid playoff run, we need to sign Monroe, then look for a RT and C in FA and draft. I'd rather see a FA center than a FA RT if we couldn't get both, considering rookie centers don't seem appealing to keep Flacco from getting his ACL torn next year by some linebacker coming up the middle untouched. This offseason should be good though, KO getting healthy and starting next to Monroe sounds like a solid answer on the left side, and Yanda next to another big, physical OT sounds like a good answer on the right. The center needs to be a veteran who is consistent and intelligent, something Gino lacked. 

 

Just my thoughts.

[runamuk]

I'd say it's a mixture of both. Combine Geno, who was supposed to be learning the scheme and technique for calling plays from Birk, as well as trying to become physically dominant, (not likely, he's too small to dominate with strength), along with a scheme change with Castillo. Not going to ever be a good result, especially because of some of the personell. McKinnie sucked, Osemele was injured, Geno is small and spent the year not only adjusting to calling blitzes and trying to read defenses, but also trying to learn an entirely different scheme, then you have Yanda being Yanda, the only bright spot to that point, and Oher, who consistently was beaten by speed or strength. 

 

Monroe came in and helped significantly in place of McKinnie. I never expected too much from Shipley, but honestly he wasn't horrid, however definitely not the answer. Gino is just not going to be big enough to be a dominant center, ever. Right tackle and center remained the glaring issues constantly, with Gradkowski picking up ghost blitzes and not knowing what to do half the time, all the while seeing him getting shoved back into Flacco was not fun. 

 

So, the scheme needs to be changed to whatever it was that helped us go on a torrid playoff run, we need to sign Monroe, then look for a RT and C in FA and draft. I'd rather see a FA center than a FA RT if we couldn't get both, considering rookie centers don't seem appealing to keep Flacco from getting his ACL torn next year by some linebacker coming up the middle untouched. This offseason should be good though, KO getting healthy and starting next to Monroe sounds like a solid answer on the left side, and Yanda next to another big, physical OT sounds like a good answer on the right. The center needs to be a veteran who is consistent and intelligent, something Gino lacked. 

 

Just my thoughts.

I think Jensen and Wagner should get a shot@ RT but a free agent center  I have seen the Chargers back up center coming up on the forums. Rich Ohrnberger There starting center went out with injury this guy filled in without missing a beat. another rookie center is not the answer

[Jokerraven]

just an fyi, don't get sarcastic  you will get reported  and its not worth it period. best to do is ignore people who say things that don't make sense. It was a good goal I don't fault Castillo for that  joe behind a properly functioning zbs  the ideal would be a high power offense  it just didn't work with our guys. refusing to admit your personel couldn't grasp it that's all on the coaches.

some of things people say you wonder how they get from here to there . I watched video of the manning era colts and the scheme functioned very well that was a highly functioning offense (my father is still a colts fan) the Texans to. In all fairness to Castillo towards the end some of the zbs was working better. maybe too little too late. I think going back to what works is best but I'm just a fan.

 

zbs is a successful blocking scheme it works at the nfl level

we do have athletic lineman

Castillo was a successful coach with this scheme

 

but for the ravens Castillo and zbs have been an absolute failure resulting in a mediocre season.

[Jokerraven]

I don't think you understand what is meant by "terminology." Terminology doesn't really mean that everyone knows what we're doing. It doesn't mean that whatsoever. 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-preston-ravens-column-1224-20131223,0,5829128.column

 

terminology changes

[Tru11]

someone should look at the sack numbers of the last 5 seasons castillo was the offensive line coach.....

this season was pretty much on pair with those lol.

 

also im pretty sure the prior season we ran alot of power plays from the i formation with leach.

 

this season i doubt leach was in for max 5% of all snaps.

 

saying we got back to what we used to run looked like a load of crap to me.......

 

we ran a new scheme with new terminology and it failed misrably.

that is on the coaching.

 

also seriously oher gets to much of the blame here lol.

dude has to learn to play LT then RT then LT  then RT then new scheme and terminology lol.

even yanda our best o-liner struggled and he only played 1 position lol

[Inqui]

 

also seriously oher gets to much of the blame here lol.

dude has to learn to play LT then RT then LT  then RT then new scheme and terminology lol.

even yanda our best o-liner struggled and he only played 1 position lol

You're not wrong, and it's a shame for the guy, but from a pure football sense we have to move forwards with the best possible RT. And we all know it isn't Oher. It's not that we don't have sympathy for the circumstance he was put in, but it's not a reason to throw money at him. Especially with how much money we don't have atm.

[Tru11]

You're not wrong, and it's a shame for the guy, but from a pure football sense we have to move forwards with the best possible RT. And we all know it isn't Oher. It's not that we don't have sympathy for the circumstance he was put in, but it's not a reason to throw money at him. Especially with how much money we don't have atm.

 

yeah i have no problem if they bring him back but you are right i dont want them to throw money at him if there are better options around.

i just hope we do find a better option though.

i remember him getting injured and wagner coming in and it was not a pretty sight hahahah.

 

alot of people seem to have forgot that he has been playing with a bad ankle he injured week 1.

 

what im trying to say is that he gets more heat then he should cause yanda played just as bad , yet he most of the blame goes to oher lol.

most dont know that yanda actually got flagged more for false starts this season and got flagged more overall as well lol.

[Inqui]

yeah i have no problem if they bring him back but you are right i dont want them to throw money at him if there are better options around.

i just hope we do find a better option though.

i remember him getting injured and wagner coming in and it was not a pretty sight hahahah.

 

alot of people seem to have forgot that he has been playing with a bad ankle he injured week 1.

 

what im trying to say is that he gets more heat then he should cause yanda played just as bad , yet he most of the blame goes to oher lol.

most dont know that yanda actually got flagged more for false starts this season and got flagged more overall as well lol.

Dunno how much his ankle injury affected that particular play (it was week 6, so maybe), but he just hasn't been flashy all season imo.

 

I remember Wagner being terrible during his time and everyone clamouring for Oher to come back, but to be fair the guy was getting thrown into the fire himself and he should be better next season if that's what the FO decides to do. I wouldn't mind us picking up a RT in the early-middle rounds of the draft, or we could take a stopgap in FA. Either way, I feel like we can get better value than we would with Oher.

 

I saw the stat on the penalties, but for me it was more watching him get beaten that frustrated me.

[Tru11]

Dunno how much his ankle injury affected that particular play (it was week 6, so maybe), but he just hasn't been flashy all season imo.

 

I remember Wagner being terrible during his time and everyone clamouring for Oher to come back, but to be fair the guy was getting thrown into the fire himself and he should be better next season if that's what the FO decides to do. I wouldn't mind us picking up a RT in the early-middle rounds of the draft, or we could take a stopgap in FA. Either way, I feel like we can get better value than we would with Oher.

 

I saw the stat on the penalties, but for me it was more watching him get beaten that frustrated me.

 

true but the whole offense was offensive to me hahahha.

 

well at least i know there isent much room for it to get worse and alot of room for it all to get better lol.

 

whoever gets plugged  should be able to do better.

 

if by some reason they manage to make it even worse it might be time to start holding protest rallys :wifey:

[Neal Could Block the SUN!!]

Early on this season Castillo statement in his presser that "his ZBS" would take up to 7 games to set in. This chowder head was willing to put 7 season games on the line to install his process. Do the math. That leaves a huge record deficit and no respect to divisional competition in his approach.

This is the NFL. Show up week 1 with a final product and go for gold. You do not have time to sit and develop a process through out the season. This clown felt this was a good idea.

And yet folks are still defending his inept performance and blaming line men?

[Tank 92]

Early on this season Castillo statement in his presser that "his ZBS" would take up to 7 games to set in. This chowder head was willing to put 7 season games on the line to install his process. Do the math. That leaves a huge record deficit and no respect to divisional competition in his approach.

This is the NFL. Show up week 1 with a final product and go for gold. You do not have time to sit and develop a process through out the season. This clown felt this was a good idea.

And yet folks are still defending his inept performance and blaming line men?

 

 

I'm sure scheme had a lot to do with the suckyness, but when your O linemen are getting pushed back into the backfield on just about every run play there has to be a performance/execution issue as well. It's pretty obvious there were 2 or 3 weak links that just were not beating their man. I think their weaknesses were probably made worse by the scheme, which led to disaster.

[The Raven]

I don't want to mess up the narrative but by the time they switched back both our backs were fighting injuries .  you said it yourself it didn't work so why bother keeping the man on staff .immediately after joe hit the dirt in detriot clutching his knee harbs should have grown a pair turned to Castillo and said go back to the eagles your not wanted here anymore period . 

 

Nothing worked, not even when we tried last year's stuff. Why don't you understand that?

 

Castillo's ZBS isn't why Flacco got hit, that's silly! We only allowed one sack that game. The line did a good job, overall, that game. It's just unfortunate that one of their few miscues that game resulted in injury.

 

it was widely reported that because of castillo's changes to the terms used for calling plays the patriots esp were calling the plays as the offense was . I'm not making this up. McKinnie said the same thing after the terminology for plays was changed the defense knew when  it was a run or a pass. don't get me started on Alaska Alaska butt tap, if everyone on this planet doesn't know that's a kill call  then the haven't been paying attention.

 

you and I are two very passionate fans and you can tell we love the sport if I thought for one minute Castillo could help us  I would forget I hate him with a passion and pay attention.i don't like zbs either anything that can injure so many players before it is even functioning can't be good. I just knew we were repeating this year you saw it too 11tds no pics , historic better defense . and to know we tanked on purpose for no good reason

 

No it wasn't. You have a severe misunderstanding of what was reported. The terminology in no way would indicate run or pass. Runs and passes were telegraphed to the defense by none other than Michael Oher the wonder boy, who would use a different stance for run plays and for pass plays. THAT is what tipped off the defense, not the terminology. 

 

this last bit is just comical

[The Raven]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-preston-ravens-column-1224-20131223,0,5829128.column

 

terminology changes

 

Yes, completely aware that we made terminology changes, thanks. :)

 

Lmao I'm failing to see anything in there that says how the terminology tipped the play off to the defense. Preston CLEARLY states, "For instance, offensive tackles Eugene Monroe and Michael Oher often give plays away. It's not unusual for a tackle to be in a pass stance in passing situations, but Monroe and Oher do that whenever the Ravens are going to pass, regardless of the down or situation. When the Ravens run, they have more of a square stance toward the line of scrimmage."

What's that have to do with terminology? Oher has done this for years, so..

[redravenfan]

Early on this season Castillo statement in his presser that "his ZBS" would take up to 7 games to set in. This chowder head was willing to put 7 season games on the line to install his process. Do the math. That leaves a huge record deficit and no respect to divisional competition in his approach.

This is the NFL. Show up week 1 with a final product and go for gold. You do not have time to sit and develop a process through out the season. This clown felt this was a good idea.

And yet folks are still defending his inept performance and blaming line men?

 

finally someone else agrees and sees how wrong this was . and harbaugh knew it he had to because if Castillo said it to the players and press  then the fo knew . that's why I have said all along we tanked the season and did it knowingly

[Tru11]

yeah blame oher lol.

 

its not like yanda had to tap gino tigh before the snap every single time making it not that hard to get a jump on the snap count.

 

also are you implying that everyone except oher was in a different stance?

 

very intresting cause its the first time reading this.

but if you are right then how much does this say about the coaching?

[The Raven]

finally someone else agrees and sees how wrong this was . and harbaugh knew it he had to because if Castillo said it to the players and press  then the fo knew . that's why I have said all along we tanked the season and did it knowingly

 

Well, MOST teams in the NFL runs the ZBS in some form. We have to adapt to stay competitive. The ZBS helps us stay competitive. 

 

 

yeah blame oher lol.

 

its not like yanda had to tap gino tigh before the snap every single time making it not that hard to get a jump on the snap count.

 

also are you implying that everyone except oher was in a different stance?

 

very intresting cause its the first time reading this.

but if you are right then how much does this say about the coaching?

 

Oher is bad, I will blame him.

 

Yanda tapped Gino to let Gino know when Joe was ready for the snap. A lot of centers do have their guard do this for them.

 

I'm not implying it. I'm straight up saying it. Oher's stance routinely tipped the offense's hand. When it was a pass play, he'd be in a two point stance. Run play, three point stance, like clockwork.  Watch the tape. And like I said, it goes to Moeller's bad coaching of technique. 

[redravenfan]

Nothing worked, not even when we tried last year's stuff. Why don't you understand that?

 

Castillo's ZBS isn't why Flacco got hit, that's silly! We only allowed one sack that game. The line did a good job, overall, that game. It's just unfortunate that one of their few miscues that game resulted in injury.

 

 

No it wasn't. You have a severe misunderstanding of what was reported. The terminology in no way would indicate run or pass. Runs and passes were telegraphed to the defense by none other than Michael Oher the wonder boy, who would use a different stance for run plays and for pass plays. THAT is what tipped off the defense, not the terminology. 

 

this last bit is just comical

you entire narrative is comical . your whole deal is this is what I think and if you don't like it I will get sarcastic, and click red checks because my opinion is the only one that matters.  news flash  everyone's opinion does. and you have a sever misunderstanding of debate . i'm done quote me again I report every single sarcastic condescending post you have written in this entire thread .

[The Raven]

you entire narrative is comical . your whole deal is this is what I think and if you don't like it I will get sarcastic, and click red checks because my opinion is the only one that matters.  news flash  everyone's opinion does. and you have a sever misunderstanding of debate . i'm done quote me again I report every single sarcastic condescending post you have written in this entire thread .

 

Oooh, I'm terrified!  :bitenails:

 

Look, all I'm doing is constantly repeating the same facts until you understand them. I wasn't even sarcastic in the last few posts. 

[The Raven]

All I've done is state facts. Prove em wrong...

[The Raven]

you entire narrative is comical . your whole deal is this is what I think and if you don't like it I will get sarcastic, and click red checks because my opinion is the only one that matters.  news flash  everyone's opinion does. and you have a sever misunderstanding of debate . i'm done quote me again I report every single sarcastic condescending post you have written in this entire thread .

 

You're breaking my heart.

 

What wrong with my understanding of debate? I state facts to support my idea and refute ones I thing are wrong. Is that not how debate works?

 

Whatever, doesn't matter. -_-

[Jokerraven]

Yes, completely aware that we made terminology changes, thanks. :)

 

Lmao I'm failing to see anything in there that says how the terminology tipped the play off to the defense. Preston CLEARLY states, "For instance, offensive tackles Eugene Monroe and Michael Oher often give plays away. It's not unusual for a tackle to be in a pass stance in passing situations, but Monroe and Oher do that whenever the Ravens are going to pass, regardless of the down or situation. When the Ravens run, they have more of a square stance toward the line of scrimmage."

What's that have to do with terminology? Oher has done this for years, so..

for someone a couple of weeks ago who had no clue what Castillo's postion was and no clue we were even trying to impl. ement inside zbs you certainly have become  an expert to the point of  being sarcastic mocking people and god forbid anyone disagrees with your opinion. I offered this article just as proof changes to the terms used  had taken place you  highlighted what best fit your argument

 

rewind a couple weeks ago you did this same thing http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/56762-the-official-say-good-bye-to-the-2013-season-your-favorite-plays-and-least-favorite-plays/page-3

 

sarcastic mocking outright called another poster a liar when you had no clue what Castillo had done or what he was teaching so forgive me if I don't take your expert opinion. everyone here has shown respect to your opinion and you have done nothing but try to bully  or degrade them . you won't do it to me anymore . have a great day . ignore is a wonderful thing especially when there is no set age limit on these forums.

[The Raven]

for someone a couple of weeks ago who had no clue what Castillo's postion was and no clue we were even trying to impl. ement inside zbs you certainly have become  an expert to the point of  being sarcastic mocking people and god forbid anyone disagrees with your opinion. I offered this article just as proof changes to the terms used  had taken place you  highlighted what best fit your argument

 

rewind a couple weeks ago you did this same thing http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/56762-the-official-say-good-bye-to-the-2013-season-your-favorite-plays-and-least-favorite-plays/page-3

 

sarcastic mocking outright called another poster a liar when you had no clue what Castillo had done or what he was teaching so forgive me if I don't take your expert opinion. everyone here has shown respect to your opinion and you have done nothing but try to bully  or degrade them . you won't do it to me anymore . have a great day . ignore is a wonderful thing especially when there is no set age limit on these forums.

 

None of this is true, I was completely aware, but thanks! You have a great day too! :D Hugs and kisses

[Jokerraven]

None of this is true, I was completely aware, but thanks! You have a great day too! :D Hugs and kisses

the proof is right there I provide links for everything I post  so don't call me a liar