Dismal Offensive Line - scheme or personnel?

[The Raven]

of course , we have stupid offensive lineman , who forgot how to play football...good luck with that whole thing

 

Way to exaggerate... 

 

I don't actually think they forgot, that was Jaege's wonderful idea. I think they just can't move people. 

[Jokerraven]

Since there was no category for a combination of 1 & 2, I cast my vote for #1 but I think that is letting the coaching staff off the hook too easily. One would think that a good O-line coach could recognize that a certain scheme wasn't working and make the necessary adjustments by season's end. The problem persisted for the entire season. Gino's inexperience, McKinnie's lack of conditioning, Osemele's back injury and Yanda's recovery from rotator cuff surgery also contributed to the blocking problems.  If the two frames of this play accurately portray the entire sequence, it also shows a glaring weakness in Ray Rice's blocking ability. On this type of play, he should have picked up the blitzing linebacker that came up the middle. At season's start, the only difference in the O-line from the playoff run was at center and that glaring weakness in the line play became evident very early in the season. Our priorities to fix the O-line issues should be focused on replacing the center and the line coach.   

i agree with this the rest is nonsense esp from people until 5 mintues ago didn't even know the scheme changed

[The Raven]

i agree with this the rest is nonsense esp from people until 5 mintues ago didn't even know the scheme changed

 

Who didn't know the scheme changed?

[runamuk]

Castillo is at fault for the offensive issues. the players could not execute the scheme it should have been scrapped and left alone instead of hammering away when it wasn;t working. Our players are not stupid, and being sarcastic when someone disagrees with your opinion is childish . also professional athletes do not tank a season because a coach pisses them off.  McKinnie confirmed that the players were not grasping the scheme so Castillo should have found another teaching method or taught something else its not rocket science . trust me the first time your child comes home with a note from there teacher saying sorry she is not getting what i'm teaching she not smart enough to grasp it ,,,,,you will get the concept of what i mean. He is not paid to stand around and ignore the fact that his players are not executing the scheme or grasping it he is paid to fix it after he broke it .. we are not the eagles, the Texans or the colts. end of story what works for  some doesn't work for others. I know im a teacher have been for over 10 years .

 

 

for all the people who think Castillo is a fantastic coach and is working wonders for this team your in luck cause he is not  going anywhere . if he was going to be fired he already would be . like stated before if the players have not gotten it by now they will not get it .and we can not replace an entire oline, and running backs that is an insane notion so  if he insist you can look for  more of the same ,,,,and praying joe doesn't get seriously hurt from  Castillo's arrogance.

[The Raven]

Castillo is at fault for the offensive issues. the players could not execute the scheme it should have been scrapped and left alone instead of hammering away when it wasn;t working. Our players are not stupid, and being sarcastic when someone disagrees with your opinion is childish . also professional athletes do not tank a season because a coach pisses them off.  McKinnie confirmed that the players were not grasping the scheme so Castillo should have found another teaching method or taught something else its not rocket science . trust me the first time your child comes home with a note from there teacher saying sorry she is not getting what i'm teaching she not smart enough to grasp it ,,,,,you will get the concept of what i mean. He is not paid to stand around and ignore the fact that his players are not executing the scheme or grasping it he is paid to fix it after he broke it .. we are not the eagles, the Texans or the colts. end of story what works for  some doesn't work for others. I know im a teacher have been for over 10 years .

 

 

for all the people who think Castillo is a fantastic coach and is working wonders for this team your in luck cause he is not  going anywhere . if he was going to be fired he already would be . like stated before if the players have not gotten it by now they will not get it .and we can not replace an entire oline, and running backs that is an insane notion so  if he insist you can look for  more of the same ,,,,and praying joe doesn't get seriously hurt from  Castillo's arrogance.

 

 I clearly said that we tried changing the scheme back to last year's and it still was not executed. If you can't move people, you can't move people, and we didn't move people no matter what scheme was called. 

 

I'm really trying not to be a snappy jerk but I don't know how I can put it any simpler. Go read the post I made on the front page.

[runamuk]

so Castillo is a good coach our players are crappy so how many years of drafting before he finds players that understand his teaching and do exactly what he demands.

 

I do agree with you the goal was the manning lead offense of the colts. but after 17 games and our qb getting injured  it was a dismal failure. and theres no need to sign Monroe? let oher go cut gradowski, and trade yanda .  are we getting rid of flacco too because he  couldn't pass block and  and throw his pass while laying on the ground. and of course leach, rice and pearce. . that's more then two or three drafts to get good players. plus the learning curve being different for each player.in terms of flacco your talking almost 40 million in dead money so free agent signings are out. I believe it took what over ten years to find a franchise qb?

just an fyi, don't get sarcastic  you will get reported  and its not worth it period. best to do is ignore people who say things that don't make sense. It was a good goal I don't fault Castillo for that  joe behind a properly functioning zbs  the ideal would be a high power offense  it just didn't work with our guys. refusing to admit your personel couldn't grasp it that's all on the coaches.

[jimjim5]

The thing I really want to stress is that the offensive line STILL struggled after the bye week when we went back to last year's scheme. We still struggled with "man" blocking and zone stretch. We've been doing that  for years, so that's on the players.

 

Yeah, but at least we had a chance. We started to get 2.0 yds per carry vs -1 yds. That is why we started to win.

 

It is and was the wrong scheme for the player we had at the time. They don't even perform the run zone blocking right. They don't push downhill in the direction of the running side, giving the line blocker the ability to seal off his man or cut block him. That is execution, which is COACHING.

 

Bad coached teams play bad. Even if the players were not executing right, the blind squirrel still finds the nut. Eventually the player could make it work at least 1 out of 10 plays. But Castillo's ZBS NEVER worked for day one up till the last game. That is coaching.

[The Raven]

Yeah, but at least we had a chance. We started to get 2.0 yds per carry vs -1 yds. That is why we started to win.

 

It is and was the wrong scheme for the player we had at the time. They don't even perform the run zone blocking right. They don't push downhill in the direction of the running side, giving the line blocker the ability to seal off his man or cut block him. That is execution, which is COACHING.

 

Bad coached teams play bad. Even if we were not executing right, blind squirrel still finds the nut eventually 0 we would see it work 1 of 10 plays. But Castillo's ZBS NEVER worked for day one till the last game. That is coaching.

 

His ZBS worked GREAT against Chicago. Just pointing that out

[Militant X 1]

This topic is exhausted!!  No need to keep regurgitating the same ole information.  Wow!  lol!

 

#Mili

[The Raven]

This topic is exhausted!!  No need to keep regurgitating the same ole information.  Wow!  lol!

 

#Mili

 

Lol, but people still don't get it!!! 

[runamuk]

 

 

 

 I clearly said that we tried changing the scheme back to last year's and it still was not executed. If you can't move people, you can't move people, and we didn't move people no matter what scheme was called. 

 

I'm really trying not to be a snappy jerk but I don't know how I can put it any simpler. Go read the post I made on the front page.

yeah ok . i read the whole thing i just don't agree with it or your opinion and contrary to what you think I'm entitled to disagree with . i also notice when someone doesn't agree with your opinion you are sarcastic and condesending. i clearly made my point sorry you don't agree with it. the thread is what you think is the problem  I think it is the coach and the scheme.

[runamuk]

This topic is exhausted!!  No need to keep regurgitating the same ole information.  Wow!  lol!

 

#Mili

amen bro!! amen

[The Raven]

 

 

 

 

yeah ok . i read the whole thing i just don't agree with it or your opinion and contrary to what you think I'm entitled to disagree with . i also notice when someone doesn't agree with your opinion you are sarcastic and condesending. i clearly made my point sorry you don't agree with it. the thread is what you think is the problem  I think it is the coach and the scheme.

 

 

I'm trying not to be snappy but when I repeat the same thing and people still don't get it.......

 

Explain why it's on Castillo

[AlaskanRavensFan]

I can't help but think that scheme had a lot to do with it. Flacco has never been sacked as much as he was this year and the personnel wasn't so drastically different, or worse to account for that. The running game sputtered as well, due largely to scheme, which only exacerbated the protection issues. It's clear that the lineman themselves could have executed better on numerous occasions, but it is my belief that they were set up to fail. 

When you've got what is essentially a rookie center, it's not the ideal time to implement a different scheme (granted the Raven's have run zone blocking since Harbs has been here) with new verbiage. Thus many of the issues were due to communication break downs. I also think though that the players, who had just won a Superbowl and dominated some good defenses in the playoffs, bristled at being told that they needed the change what they were doing. Hard to argue with winning it all with the previous scheme, even if it did have Cam's fingerprints all over it. I think the FO will overhaul the O-line in the off-season in part due to the issues this year, but also just due to the presence of several UFAs. The Oher era will likely be over unless he signs for very cheap. I for one wouldn't mind having him back at the right price, just to keep KO at Guard where he is best suited. 

 

I have a very unsettling feeling that Castillo will stay and that the FO will just assume their personnel needs an upgrade and another year with the system. In some respects that may be true, since Gino will definitely be more experienced calling protections and such. However, I really think that Castillo should move on because he's already lost the ears of the players. It showed all season unfortunately. 

[jimjim5]

Lol, but people still don't get it!!! 

 

The Raven, I played football for 8 years. When you play that long for different coaches, you see good, and bad coaching, but rarely great coaching. I've seen all three. I've been a part of stacked teams that were out-schemed. I've been a part of over-matched teams. I've played for smart, thick-headed coaches that lost games that they shouldn't have lost. I've been a part of poorly coached teams that lost not because the players couldn't perform, but because the coach was clueless as to WHY the scheme didn't work. In the last situation, the problem was lack of experience and that the coaching team was a one-trick pony. In my estimation, this is what we are dealing with regarding the Ravens.

 

I think it is a slippery slope to ruin if the Ravens make no changes.

 

Let me ask you this - Have you ever worked under a bad supervisor or organization? Do you think that one person or organization had the capability to improve their self or the team they lead? Or did they just need to be replaced? If they were replaced, did the situation improve?  Football and team operations are not much different than the real world.

[runamuk]

I'm trying not to be snappy but when I repeat the same thing and people still don't get it.......

 

Explain why it's on Castillo

I already did . I did forget one thing lets not forget he changed the terminology so that every single defense in the league esp the patriots knew exactly what we were doing.

[runamuk]

I can't help but think that scheme had a lot to do with it. Flacco has never been sacked as much as he was this year and the personnel wasn't so drastically different, or worse to account for that. The running game sputtered as well, due largely to scheme, which only exacerbated the protection issues. It's clear that the lineman themselves could have executed better on numerous occasions, but it is my belief that they were set up to fail. 

When you've got what is essentially a rookie center, it's not the ideal time to implement a different scheme (granted the Raven's have run zone blocking since Harbs has been here) with new verbiage. Thus many of the issues were due to communication break downs. I also think though that the players, who had just won a Superbowl and dominated some good defenses in the playoffs, bristled at being told that they needed the change what they were doing. Hard to argue with winning it all with the previous scheme, even if it did have Cam's fingerprints all over it. I think the FO will overhaul the O-line in the off-season in part due to the issues this year, but also just due to the presence of several UFAs. The Oher era will likely be over unless he signs for very cheap. I for one wouldn't mind having him back at the right price, just to keep KO at Guard where he is best suited. 

 

I have a very unsettling feeling that Castillo will stay and that the FO will just assume their personnel needs an upgrade and another year with the system. In some respects that may be true, since Gino will definitely be more experienced calling protections and such. However, I really think that Castillo should move on because he's already lost the ears of the players. It showed all season unfortunately. 

epic post I agree with everything you said .

[jimjim5]

Castillo is at fault for the offensive issues. the players could not execute the scheme it should have been scrapped and left alone instead of hammering away when it wasn;t working. Our players are not stupid, and being sarcastic when someone disagrees with your opinion is childish . also professional athletes do not tank a season because a coach pisses them off.  McKinnie confirmed that the players were not grasping the scheme so Castillo should have found another teaching method or taught something else its not rocket science . trust me the first time your child comes home with a note from there teacher saying sorry she is not getting what i'm teaching she not smart enough to grasp it ,,,,,you will get the concept of what i mean. He is not paid to stand around and ignore the fact that his players are not executing the scheme or grasping it he is paid to fix it after he broke it .. we are not the eagles, the Texans or the colts. end of story what works for  some doesn't work for others. I know im a teacher have been for over 10 years .

 

 

for all the people who think Castillo is a fantastic coach and is working wonders for this team your in luck cause he is not  going anywhere . if he was going to be fired he already would be . like stated before if the players have not gotten it by now they will not get it .and we can not replace an entire oline, and running backs that is an insane notion so  if he insist you can look for  more of the same ,,,,and praying joe doesn't get seriously hurt from  Castillo's arrogance.

 

excellent analogy. I've seen this type of situation play out numerous times in my life.

[The Raven]

I already did . I did forget one thing lets not forget he changed the terminology so that every single defense in the league esp the patriots knew exactly what we were doing.

 

I don't think you understand what is meant by "terminology." Terminology doesn't really mean that everyone knows what we're doing. It doesn't mean that whatsoever. 

[jimjim5]

His ZBS worked GREAT against Chicago. Just pointing that out

 

Every teams scheme worked great against Chicago. They were like last in defense, seated very near Dallas. LOL.

[The Raven]

Every teams scheme worked great against Chicago. They were like last in defense, seated very near Dallas. LOL.

 

Well, if scheme was the issue, wouldn't it have failed against Chicago? If this scheme is as bad as you say it is we shouldn't have had success with it ever.

 

But, I guess it's the players after all

[jimjim5]

Is The Raven a Ravens PR guy? LOL

 

 I clearly said that we tried changing the scheme back to last year's and it still was not executed. If you can't move people, you can't move people, and we didn't move people no matter what scheme was called. 

 

I'm really trying not to be a snappy jerk but I don't know how I can put it any simpler. Go read the post I made on the front page.

 

But in the first half - with the same players, less Birk from the SB winning team we couldn't move players?  Every player on our line was proven except for Gradkowski. So they somehow cannot move player now? Or maybe the practice time, fundamentals, and confidence was lost by the time they attempted to correct the issue?

[The Raven]

Is The Raven a Ravens PR guy? LOL

 

 

But in the first half - with the same players, less Birk from the SB winning team we couldn't move players?  Every player on our line was proven except for Gradkowski. So they somehow cannot move player now? Or maybe the practice time, fundamentals, and confidence was lost by the time they attempted to correct the issue?

 

Shipley is unproven. KO was hurt. Oher regressed.

 

And dude! Even when we ran plays from last year, we couldn't move people! What does that tell you?!

 

I'm not a PR guy. I just look at the facts and make judgments based on it.

[jimjim5]

Well, if scheme was the issue, wouldn't it have failed against Chicago? If this scheme is as bad as you say it is we shouldn't have had success with it ever.

 

But, I guess it's the players after all

 

Large, big-nosed, blind squirrel taking the nut from his buddy in the tree. What about answering my previous post?

[The Raven]

Large nosed, blind squirrel taking the nut from his buddy in the tree. What about answering my previous post?

 

Did I not? KO was hurt, Oher regressed, and I'll add Gino's inexperience, Yanda's injury, and McKinnie's lack of effort.

 

Do I need to spell out every little thing or...?

[jimjim5]

Shipley is unproven. KO was hurt. Oher regressed.

 

And dude! Even when we ran plays from last year, we couldn't move people! What does that tell you?!

 

I'm not a PR guy. I just look at the facts and make judgments based on it.

 

Shipley did well for Colts as a replacement Center.

 

KO was hurt - Ok this happens to NFL teams all of the time. Why don't their run games and pass protection fall off of the face of the Earth?

 

Oher regressed - ask yourself why.

 

Yanda regressed

Oher regressed

Shipley regressed

McKinnie regressed

our run game regressed

our pass game regressed - but our WR's (disregarding Boldin loss) got better. What? How's that happen?

Flacco regressed

Rice regressed

Pierce regressed

Gradkowski looked lost after looking good. After the organization evaluated him to be good enough to replace Birk

 

all in one year.

 

Coaching and scheme!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Scheme is coaching...

[The Raven]

Regardless, it doesn't matter. There are four things that aren't up for debate: The ZBS works, Castillo is a proven commodity in the NFL, we couldn't execute any scheme (man or zone) this year, and our guys fit the model of zone blocking linemen.

 

When you add those four facts up, I don't see how Castillo can take all the blame. It just doesn't add up. If someone can prove even one of those points wrong, I'll concede the point. But until you prove those points wrong, I don't see how the players aren't the main issue. 

[The Raven]

Shipley did well for Colts as a replacement Center.

 

KO was hurt - Ok this happens to NFL teams all of the time. Why don't their run games and pass protection fall off of the face of the Earth?

 

Oher regressed - ask yourself why.

 

Yanda regressed

Oher regressed

Shipley regressed

McKinnie regressed

our run game regressed

our pass game regressed - but our WR's (disregarding Boldin loss) got better. What? How's that happen?

Flacco regressed

Rice regressed

Pierce regressed

Gradkowski looked lost after looking good. After the organization evaluated him to be good enough to replace Birk

 

all in one year.

 

Coaching and scheme!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Scheme is coaching...

 

Oher regressed because he's just bad.

Yanda had an injury and offseason surgery. 

KO had a back injury. Back injuries end the careers of linemen.

Shipley is not good as a LG.

McKinnie regressed due to lack of effort

 

Scheme was not the issue, because once again, we couldn't execute man or zone schemes this year. When you can't execute either scheme, it goes on the players. 

[jimjim5]

Regardless, it doesn't matter. There are four things that aren't up for debate: The ZBS works, Castillo is a proven commodity in the NFL, we couldn't execute any scheme (man or zone) this year, and our guys fit the model of zone blocking linemen.

 

When you add those four facts up, I don't see how Castillo can take all the blame. It just doesn't add up. If someone can prove even one of those points wrong, I'll concede the point. But until you prove those points wrong, I don't see how the players aren't the main issue. 

 

Of course he doesn't take all of the blame. Someone hired him. Someone allowed his methods to persist. Blame them too.

 

However, your logic is off. Totally off. It all points to Castillo and the man that allowed it to happen.

[The Raven]

Of course he doesn't take all of the blame. Someone hired him. Someone allowed his methods to persist. Blame them too.

 

However, your logic is off. Totally off. It all points to Castillo and the man that allowed it to happen.

 

They did zone blocking, it didn't work. In the second half, they did a LOT more man/gap blocking. Still not much success. Do you want him to invent an entirely new scheme? I mean, what other ways are there to block a defense? :D There are really only two blocking schemes, zone and man/gap. We tried both and both failed. 

 

That's a fact. As that is a fact, how is it on Castillo? Wow!

 

They tried to fix the problem, and every solution didn't work.