Dismal Offensive Line - scheme or personnel?

[Grapple Raven]

Who's at fault? On this play it looks like all the Ravens players (not just OL) and maybe a little bit of play calling and defensive scheme recognition thrown in there for good measure. It's everybody. Ugly.

 

 

Lol, while I would agree with some of it, you have to keep in mind that looking at a play or say the "all 22" coaches tape, unless you know what play was called and the player's individual assignments it is kind of like shooting in the dark to make a judgment. Just sayin'.

[The Raven]

Who's at fault? On this play it looks like all the Ravens players (not just OL) and maybe a little bit of play calling and defensive scheme recognition thrown in there for good measure. It's everybody. Ugly.

 

 

Lol, while I would agree with some of it, you have to keep in mind that looking at a play or say the "all 22" coaches tape, unless you know what play was called and the player's individual assignments it is kind of like shooting in the dark to make a judgment. Just sayin'.

 

Well, here's the thing. Offensive line blocking schemes don't really change from HS to the NFL. It's all mainly the same. You can see the blocking schemes on TV. Having played offensive line before, I can determine each player's individual assignment. I hate to sound like a know it all, but it's not all that hard to figure out assignments on a blocking scheme. 

[edthehead]

Now we're asking the right questions!
 
I do think the players stopped playing for him (and for the team in general).
 
Oher was given a contract prior to the season, and he felt low balled. His tragically bad season leads me to believe he didn't try after he got "insulted." I know that a few of the linemen were unhappy with the scheme change and the change in terminology. That's something I don't get. Castillo changed the terminology which was a dumb move to me. I think Oher and McKinnie quit on the team. I think KO might not have tried as much under Castillo, but he was injured, too. Gino and Shipley just struggled with inexperience.(in my Chinese voice)thank you O'wise one,,, there is a reason and I wish I knew but you did shed a little light on the possibilities,THANKS BRO
 
I don't think Castillo and Caldwell were on different pages. The Colts ran the ZBS while Caldwell was there, and I don't think we would bring in a zone blocking OL coach/run coordinator if our OC didn't want to do the ZBS.
 
As far as Wilbert goes, I don't know. It sounds like he might not have gotten along with Castillo, but that might also be Caldwell wanting to start bringing in his own staff.

[Jokerraven]

My man, just look at the numbers. The dude is proven to be a good coach. You think Westbrook and McNabb had all that success behind a crappy line?

 

Buddy hire? Nope. He's proven.

 

Only Yanda and Oher played in the SB, by the way. Shipley, Gino, and Monroe didn't. Mathematically, that's not most of the line. 

 

OH! And actually, he was hired as run game coordinator during our SB run... So... I'm assuming he did get a ring then :D :D :D

so Castillo is a good coach our players are crappy so how many years of drafting before he finds players that understand his teaching and do exactly what he demands.

 

I do agree with you the goal was the manning lead offense of the colts. but after 17 games and our qb getting injured  it was a dismal failure. and theres no need to sign Monroe? let oher go cut gradowski, and trade yanda .  are we getting rid of flacco too because he  couldn't pass block and  and throw his pass while laying on the ground. and of course leach, rice and pearce. . that's more then two or three drafts to get good players. plus the learning curve being different for each player.in terms of flacco your talking almost 40 million in dead money so free agent signings are out. I believe it took what over ten years to find a franchise qb?

[jaege]

The coaches tried going back to what they did last year, so were the players unable to grasp what they already did last season?

 

 

Have you never been a student? It doesn't work that way. You cant just tell the line to forget all the crap you were taught and practiced for the last 9 months and start doing it the way you did before. There had been no practice with the old way, no repetitions no reinforcement. If it was that easy to just "do what you did last year" then there wouldn't be any need for mini camps or off season practice. And several of the line were still new to the whole thing.. There had been no time to gell with the rest of the team, particularly for Gino. The line looked lost much of the time. This is a SB champion line now. Did they all get bumped on the head and forget how to play suddenly? 

 

On one hand you have a SB champion line that had successfully played together, and on the other some new freshly fired BFF that didn't know the team, the players or their strengths. Which logically seems to be the thing that tossed in the monkey wrench?

[The Raven]

so Castillo is a good coach our players are crappy so how many years of drafting before he finds players that understand his teaching and do exactly what he demands.

 

I do agree with you the goal was the manning lead offense of the colts. but after 17 games and our qb getting injured  it was a dismal failure. and theres no need to sign Monroe? let oher go cut gradowski, and trade yanda .  are we getting rid of flacco too because he  couldn't pass block and  and throw his pass while laying on the ground. and of course leach, rice and pearce. . that's more then two or three drafts to get good players. plus the learning curve being different for each player.

 

What? I don't even know where half of this even came from, sorry. 

 

Yanda, KO, and Monroe are good to stay but we need improvements at center and RT. Simple enough, right? Well, KO might need competition at LG if his back isn't right. 

[jaege]

My man, just look at the numbers. The dude is proven to be a good coach. You think Westbrook and McNabb had all that success behind a crappy line?

 

Buddy hire? Nope. He's proven.

 

Only Yanda and Oher played in the SB, by the way. Shipley, Gino, and Monroe didn't. Mathematically, that's not most of the line. 

 

OH! And actually, he was hired as run game coordinator during our SB run... So... I'm assuming he did get a ring then :D :D :D

 

 

A buddy ring. What did he actually do to earn it? Again I ask, if he was so good, why was he released? Monroe came later,by the way. Osemel and McKinnie  were there to start so mathematically MOST of the line was from our SB team :) :) I can make stupid happy faces too.

[Inqui]

Well, here's the thing. Offensive line blocking schemes don't really change from HS to the NFL. It's all mainly the same. You can see the blocking schemes on TV. Having played offensive line before, I can determine each player's individual assignment. I hate to sound like a know it all, but it's not all that hard to figure out assignments on a blocking scheme. 

Agree. In the first screenshot I posted it seems like the assignments are generally pretty clear. Two guys just got through by beating their blocker and a there was a miscue that allowed the third to come through. I understand the point GR made about only taking a snapshot and not knowing assignments and all, but I think two players covering a linebacker and another LB getting through untouched looks like a miscue.

 

 

 

Lol, while I would agree with some of it, you have to keep in mind that looking at a play or say the "all 22" coaches tape, unless you know what play was called and the player's individual assignments it is kind of like shooting in the dark to make a judgment. Just sayin'.

The point was less about dissecting that particular play and more trying to get some practical answers about what went wrong. The one I used was just an example because it had been bugging me all season. Feel free to add more plays or thoughts on what went wrong throughout the season.

[Jokerraven]

What? I don't even know where half of this even came from, sorry. 

 

Yanda, KO, and Monroe are good to stay but we need improvements at center and RT. Simple enough, right? Well, KO might need competition at LG if his back isn't right. 

this thread is about Castillo is a great coach it wasn't his fault it was the players fault correct. so how long until the crappy players are replaced. no they failed at the scheme they are part of the crappy players in the oline.

[The Raven]

A buddy ring. What did he actually do to earn it?

A buddy ring? Really? Wow. Sorry, what are you basing this on? You have done nothing to discredit Castillo's credibility as a coach, sorry.

 

What did he do? Well... our offensive line was pretty good during that run, wasn't it? I'd say it was improved over its performance in the regular season. Idk how much of that is on Castillo, but hey, he had an influence for sure.

[The Raven]

this thread is about Castillo is a great coach it wasn't his fault it was the players fault correct. so how long until the crappy players are replaced. no they failed at the scheme they are part of the crappy players in the oline.

 

How long? Well... FA is in two months and the draft is in May... so......

[Jokerraven]

How long? Well... FA is in two months and the draft is in May... so......

 

you seriously think it is going to take one draft to replace an entire oline  and running backs . im assuming we are stuck with joe because of the dead money . we will be lucky to get a two good tackles and two guards and a center in five drafts not to mention centers aren't immediate starters.

 

 

I think it makes more sense to find a coach that suits the players we have , first it was McKinnie was at fault , then KO was at fault , then rice lost a step , then pearce is always injured ,  then it was gino is young then it was Joe is a one trick pony.  really ?? oh and oher sucks. its easier to believe that our entire oline  sucks and needs to replaced then to believe its coaching?

[T3hRaven]

There should be an option for both.  We have sub par personnel at three OL positions, but the coaching is a factor as well.

[Inqui]

Outstanding post! There's so much ugliness in there it's really is hard to pickout what to focus on. I wonder if an audible 'hot' call should have been used. The Packers are known for these types of delayed blitz alignments and schemes. It seems like the receivers didn't react, alert it nor breakoff patterns, as well. I think with all the disfunction that was going-on that you stated with a known Packers alignment added - the best we could have got out of that play would have been a throw-away.

 

Who's at fault? On this play it looks like all the Ravens players (not just OL) and maybe a little bit of play calling and defensive scheme recognition thrown in there for good measure. It's everybody. Ugly.

Cheers mate. I agree playcalling could well get brought into this discussion. I didn't see what Torrey and whoever else was in on that play got up to, but the routes Dallas and Jacoby got sent on didn't even look like anything out of Madden - I actually recognised the play from Tecmo (that 1991 Nintendo game).

 

I just feel like that play was representative of the season - everything (line-related, at least) except a banged-up KO just imploding on itself. And I just wonder how much of it was on a scheme putting the players in a spot to lose (or the coaches not preparing well enough), or just terrible play all-round. Looking at the talent we have, we should theoretically be better than that.

[Jokerraven]

 

Have you never been a student? It doesn't work that way. You cant just tell the line to forget all the crap you were taught and practiced for the last 9 months and start doing it the way you did before. There had been no practice with the old way, no repetitions no reinforcement. If it was that easy to just "do what you did last year" then there wouldn't be any need for mini camps or off season practice. And several of the line were still new to the whole thing.. There had been no time to gell with the rest of the team, particularly for Gino. The line looked lost much of the time. This is a SB champion line now. Did they all get bumped on the head and forget how to play suddenly? 

 

On one hand you have a SB champion line that had successfully played together, and on the other some new freshly fired BFF that didn't know the team, the players or their strengths. Which logically seems to be the thing that tossed in the monkey wrench?

OMG thank you for saying this. its easier to believe an entire offense including running backs , guards, tackles and center  all forgot how to play football , to block , and pass protect.

[77rus]

Yes, I am completely aware that the blocking scheme was changed this season to use all three ZBS plays. Yes, we struggled with it, and yes, we struggled especially with the inside ZBS.

 

No, we weren't really all that successful with man blocking. Even when we went back to stretch zone, we struggled. We used that last year, so what's the deal?

 

 

The thing I really want to stress is that the offensive line STILL struggled after the bye week when we went back to last year's scheme. We still struggled with "man" blocking and zone stretch. We've been doing that  for years, so that's on the players.

 

Castillo changed the terminology when he got here. I'm no expert in this scheme stuff, but that might be the reason why they struggled even with the old scheme as well. Ultimately, it's on the players to learn the terminology and execute. But I think Castillo should have adapted his scheme and terminology to our team and our players in the first place, instead of turning everything upside down.

[The Raven]

A buddy ring. What did he actually do to earn it? Again I ask, if he was so good, why was he released? Monroe came later,by the way. Osemel and McKinnie  were there to start so mathematically MOST of the line was from our SB team :) :) I can make stupid happy faces too.

 

Well, he got moved to DC and was inadequate there, and was fired. Maybe do a google search to figure it out instead of basing your opinion of him on one season :D :D :D

[The Raven]

Castillo changed the terminology when he got here. I'm no expert in this scheme stuff, but that might be the reason why they struggled even with the old scheme as well. Ultimately, it's on the players to learn the terminology and execute. But I think Castillo should have adapted his scheme and terminology to our team and our players in the first place, instead of turning everything upside down.

 

Now we're getting somewhere again! This is indeed an error he made. His scheme didn't really turn anything upside down, but changing the terminology was stupid!

[hawkprey]

Weren't we telegraphing our plays?

 

That would probably explain some of the ineptitude.

[The Raven]

Have you never been a student? It doesn't work that way. You cant just tell the line to forget all the crap you were taught and practiced for the last 9 months and start doing it the way you did before. There had been no practice with the old way, no repetitions no reinforcement. If it was that easy to just "do what you did last year" then there wouldn't be any need for mini camps or off season practice. And several of the line were still new to the whole thing.. There had been no time to gell with the rest of the team, particularly for Gino. The line looked lost much of the time. This is a SB champion line now. Did they all get bumped on the head and forget how to play suddenly? 

 

On one hand you have a SB champion line that had successfully played together, and on the other some new freshly fired BFF that didn't know the team, the players or their strengths. Which logically seems to be the thing that tossed in the monkey wrench?

 

Yeah, sorry, no. Offensive line blocking assignments are very easy to remember if you have half a brain. I have less than half a brain and I still remember all the blocking schemes from high school  :Cool_408:

[Inqui]

Now we're getting somewhere again! This is indeed an error he made. His scheme didn't really turn anything upside down, but changing the terminology was stupid!

Do we know what happened to Andy Moeller's terminology?

[The Raven]

Do we know what happened to Andy Moeller's terminology?

 

Well, the players probably just forgot it all, if we go by what jaege says. I kid I kid!

 

They just stopped using it. No sense to go back now though, just build on it.

[Jokerraven]

Castillo might be a half of fame coach but his tenure in Baltimore was an abysmal failure . the first thing he did, with a rookie center was change the terminology......that was to ensure it was done his way . read mckinnies interview . even when it wasn't working he insisted. and for the record harbaugh knew it was a possibility it could take  8 to 9 games before they got it. and when it didn't they insisted they still do it.  at some point when things don't work you have to change them . if it didn't work in 17 games it is not going to work in 27 57 97 end of story.

 

this whole thing is moot we will have Castillo probably as an oc if caldwell moves on next year it will be the same thing , and if joe gets injured again because of it this time worse ,,,,,,then what.

[Jokerraven]

Yeah, sorry, no. Offensive line blocking assignments are very easy to remember if you have half a brain. I have less than half a brain and I still remember all the blocking schemes from high school  :Cool_408:

this whole thing is offensive we have highly intelligent players , and you have no right

[The Raven]

this whole thing is offensive we have highly intelligent players , and you have no right

 

No right to question the brains of an offensive line that couldn't execute the ZBS? You know, the ZBS that was literally invented for stupid offensive linemen?

[Inqui]

Well, the players probably just forgot it all, if we go by what jaege says. I kid I kid!

 

They just stopped using it. No sense to go back now though, just build on it.

So we had two coaches with slightly different philosophies and protection schemes, using one guy's terminology presumably for both techniques.

 

Sounds like a perfect storm with an inexperienced centre and two tackles who just had years to forget.

 

At this point I'm not entirely opposed to Castillo staying on, but I think we should find a guy responsible for the o-line as a whole and stick with him.

[The Raven]

So we had two coaches with slightly different philosophies and protection schemes, using one guy's terminology presumably for both techniques.

 

Sounds like a perfect storm with an inexperienced centre and two tackles who just had years to forget.

 

At this point I'm not entirely opposed to Castillo staying on, but I think we should find a guy responsible for the o-line as a whole and stick with him.

 

Good point there. I think we need continuity if we want to improve next year. Stick with Castillo!

[frozen joe flacco fan]

you seriously think it is going to take one draft to replace an entire oline  and running backs . im assuming we are stuck with joe because of the dead money . we will be lucky to get a two good tackles and two guards and a center in five drafts not to mention centers aren't immediate starters.

 

 

I think it makes more sense to find a coach that suits the players we have , first it was McKinnie was at fault , then KO was at fault , then rice lost a step , then pearce is always injured ,  then it was gino is young then it was Joe is a one trick pony.  really ?? oh and oher sucks. its easier to believe that our entire oline  sucks and needs to replaced then to believe its coaching?

 

Since there was no category for a combination of 1 & 2, I cast my vote for #1 but I think that is letting the coaching staff off the hook too easily. One would think that a good O-line coach could recognize that a certain scheme wasn't working and make the necessary adjustments by season's end. The problem persisted for the entire season. Gino's inexperience, McKinnie's lack of conditioning, Osemele's back injury and Yanda's recovery from rotator cuff surgery also contributed to the blocking problems.  If the two frames of this play accurately portray the entire sequence, it also shows a glaring weakness in Ray Rice's blocking ability. On this type of play, he should have picked up the blitzing linebacker that came up the middle. At season's start, the only difference in the O-line from the playoff run was at center and that glaring weakness in the line play became evident very early in the season. Our priorities to fix the O-line issues should be focused on replacing the center and the line coach.   

[The Raven]

Since there was no category for a combination of 1 & 2, I cast my vote for #1 but I think that is letting the coaching staff off the hook too easily. One would think that a good O-line coach could recognize that a certain scheme wasn't working and make the necessary adjustments by season's end. The problem persisted for the entire season. Gino's inexperience, McKinnie's lack of conditioning, Osemele's back injury and Yanda's recovery from rotator cuff surgery also contributed to the blocking problems.  If the two frames of this play accurately portray the entire sequence, it also shows a glaring weakness in Ray Rice's blocking ability. On this type of play, he should have picked up the blitzing linebacker that came up the middle. At season's start, the only difference in the O-line from the playoff run was at center and that glaring weakness in the line play became evident very early in the season. I think we need a different center and a different line coach next year.    

 

They tried. Only so much you can do to make an oline better at run blocking. If you can't move somebody you can't move somebody. Simple as that.

[Jokerraven]

No right to question the brains of an offensive line that couldn't execute the ZBS? You know, the ZBS that was literally invented for stupid offensive linemen?

of course , we have stupid offensive lineman , who forgot how to play football...good luck with that whole thing