Dismal Offensive Line - scheme or personnel?

[The Mom Gene]

Bad coaching  the coaches are responsible for making the players successful. not keeping forcing the issue . they are paid to make the players successful. no need to get nasty adults can disagree and still discuss things.

Oh definitely...  Just too many reasons for this failure this season...  When you poll members/fans, you're gonna get as many opinions as you do perspectives or options given...  Yes, it's all about perspective and opinion.

[redravenfan]

Really, I thought they were professional ball players...  who's responsibility it is to learn the scheme or playbook...  Haven't you ever heard that "some players are uncoachable"?  There are many reasons that schemes don't always work...  Players cannot execute due to a lack or inability to implement the changes quickly enough?  Confusion on which scheme is being put into place...  Defending teams knowing our scheme and playing against it?  There is just so much that could be to blame for an inadequate line...  That's why lots of teams have this problem.  The Ravens weren't alone in this... especially this season.

the same players who won the superbowl all of a sudden are uncoachable ? three probowl players forget how to play football after functioning for years at a high level.

[The Raven]

the same players who won the superbowl all of a sudden are uncoachable ? three probowl players forget how to play football after functioning for years at a high level.

 

The only pro bowler on that line is Yanda, and Monroe is pro bowl caliber. The other three sucked.

[The Mom Gene]

The coaches tried going back to what they did last year, so were the players unable to grasp what they already did last season?

Shipley and Monroe weren't here last season..  Gradkowski wasn't a starter... and Osemele was, but was hurt most of this season...  It's just my belief that we will be better this next season...  Time to move forward.

[redravenfan]

Man, it wasn't until I uploaded those screenshots that I realised just how bad Oher was on that play. Look at his footwork in the first shot - he's still trying to get set when all he needs to do is push the guy outside if he blows past Yanda. And when he's finally in his blocking stance the guy's just blown past him already and he gets made to look like an NBA defender who's just had his ankles broken.

I never liked oher from day one I was very sorry he was raised rough ,,,,i'm not objective about him period .

[redravenfan]

The only pro bowler on that line is Yanda, and Monroe is pro bowl caliber. The other three sucked.

yanda leach and rice

[BloodRaven]

It's personnel, we need to re-sign Monroe, find a new right tackle, centre and possibly left guard if KO continues to have trouble with his back. Yanda has a lot of mileage too with age and injures too.

[The Raven]

yanda leach and rice

 

Leach and Rice are not offensive linemen. I am discussing offensive linemen. It doesn't matter if you have Pro Bowl backs if the offensive line is bad. 

[redravenfan]

Shipley and Monroe weren't here last season..  Gradkowski wasn't a starter... and Osemele was, but was hurt most of this season...  It's just my belief that we will be better this next season...  Time to move forward.

I think your right mom move forward get used to it they r not changing it . Castillo is not going anywhere , contrary to what folks are saying if they planned to fire him he would have been gone when they fired a man who didn't deserve it. John wants zbs installed he doesn't care if it fits his players or not he will keep forcing it until the m and t looks like the jags stadium . so if it doesn't work this year , then maybe moeller will go but make no mistake regardless how long it takes months or years  losing season or not its not going anywhere. we wasted one year and by the end of that year we were no closer to grasping it then we were in the preseason. add to that our oc has no clue how to help joe get the ball out faster  slants screens , nothing .

[Inqui]

I never liked oher from day one I was very sorry he was raised rough ,,,,i'm not objective about him period .

I just don't think he's good enough to start for us. He's had a cool story (and I've kinda liked telling chicks about how I like the team that drafted him :p ), but I think it's time for both parties to move on.

[edthehead]

To me, it's primarily on the players. Why?
 
1: Castillo is a proven offensive line coach in this league. Whether you want to believe it or not, he has done very well. He's proven to be a great teacher on the line. For example, he spent a few seasons coaching at a DII college. In that time, four of his linemen made the NFL. He molded four DII linemen into NFL players. That's pretty great, no? As an NFL line coach, just look at the numbers. Philly's rushing attacks from 1998-2010 were very good. He's a proven commodity, our players aren't.
 
2: In the first half of the season, we struggled greatly. We all know that. But after the bye week, we started incorporating more of last year's blocking scheme. We used a lot more  zone stretch, power, and gap blocking in the second half. But guess what? We STILL struggled. We couldn't execute this year what we executed very well last year. How is that on Castillo?
 
3: If you watched Kansas City and Philly this past weekend, you see that the ZBS is proven to work. It's a great scheme when executed.
 
4. Oh? You don't think our players fit the scheme? They all played in the stretch ZBS we had last year. Oher is an exceptional athlete, as is Gino. KO and Yanda aren't as quick, but they are still athletic linemen. The only guys on our line at any point this season that didn't fit were McKinnie and Shipley. One was disposed of and one played LG out of necessity. These guys all fit the ZBS.  whether you want to believe it or not.
 
TL;DR?
 
Our guys DO fit the ZBS. We ran the ZBS last year. We went back to some of last year's scheme and we still sucked. Castillo is proven in this league.  It's mostly on the players.
 
Any questions or comments?

of course

[redravenfan]

Leach and Rice are not offensive linemen. I am discussing offensive linemen. It doesn't matter if you have Pro Bowl backs if the offensive line is bad. 

and I am talking about the ramifications to players on offense as  a result of the bad oline. add to that joe getting hurt .  but for sake of argument I will leave that point alone.

[The Raven]

I think your right mom move forward get used to it they r not changing it . Castillo is not going anywhere , contrary to what folks are saying if they planned to fire him he would have been gone when they fired a man who didn't deserve it. John wants zbs installed he doesn't care if it fits his players or not he will keep forcing it until the m and t looks like the jags stadium . so if it doesn't work this year , then maybe moeller will go but make no mistake regardless how long it takes months or years  losing season or not its not going anywhere. we wasted one year and by the end of that year we were no closer to grasping it then we were in the preseason. add to that our oc has no clue how to help joe get the ball out faster  slants screens , nothing .

 

The ZBS does (or at least should) fit our players. Are our offensive linemen not athletic?

 

On the Caldwell comment, he did fine when had an OL and WRs that could run routes (Boldin). But that is neither here nor there

[Inqui]

It's personnel, we need to re-sign Monroe, find a new right tackle, centre and possibly left guard if KO continues to have trouble with his back. Yanda has a lot of mileage too with age and injures too.

If we get a new centre I'd like to see Gino kept on as a backup guard. He's had his flashes in blocking, and for that I think he deserves to remain in the league. I did notice the pocket started looking a lot cleaner for Joe towards the end of the season, so I'd like to go over some of that footage in time and get a better idea of how he improved during the season (while I'm not getting emotional during the games).

[redravenfan]

I just don't think he's good enough to start for us. He's had a cool story (and I've kinda liked telling chicks about how I like the team that drafted him :P ), but I think it's time for both parties to move on.

 

+100

 

 

[The Raven]

of course

?

[redravenfan]

The ZBS does (or at least should) fit our players. Are our offensive linemen not athletic?

 

On the Caldwell comment, he did fine when had an OL and WRs that could run routes (Boldin). But that is neither here nor there

can we not talk about wr's if we want a good one call the manager of the  bengals ozzie has no clue how to draft them that's another topic.

Shipley and oher (contrary to how he looks) for whatever reason can't get it )

[The Raven]

can we not talk about wr's if we want a good one call the manager of the  bengals ozzie has no clue how to draft them that's another topic.

Shipley and oher (contrary to how he looks) for whatever reason can't get it )

 

Shipley played out of necessity, and Oher is very athletic. He's just inadequate.  

[Gordo52]

Monroe Yanda and K.O. should be the only ones back next year IMO.

I'm hoping K.O. can come back strong and fill LG for us for the long haul. Not concerned with Yanda I think he'll bounce right back. Monroe deserves to have a full offseason here and build chemistry. We also invested in him and it would be a shame if we don't resign him. He didn't play great but nobody on our line did and he's still young and better than half the league.

I'm sorry but I have no faith in Gino, unfortunately. Oher is already gone in my mind. Hopefully Wagner wants that job bad enough to where he'll go out and get it. It would be huge for us if Wagner steps up with all the needs we have.

[edthehead]

To me, it's primarily on the players. Why?
 
1: Castillo is a proven offensive line coach in this league. Whether you want to believe it or not, he has done very well. He's proven to be a great teacher on the line. For example, he spent a few seasons coaching at a DII college. In that time, four of his linemen made the NFL. He molded four DII linemen into NFL players. That's pretty great, no? As an NFL line coach, just look at the numbers. Philly's rushing attacks from 1998-2010 were very good. He's a proven commodity, our players aren't.
 
2: In the first half of the season, we struggled greatly. We all know that. But after the bye week, we started incorporating more of last year's blocking scheme. We used a lot more  zone stretch, power, and gap blocking in the second half. But guess what? We STILL struggled. We couldn't execute this year what we executed very well last year. How is that on Castillo?
 
3: If you watched Kansas City and Philly this past weekend, you see that the ZBS is proven to work. It's a great scheme when executed.
 
4. Oh? You don't think our players fit the scheme? They all played in the stretch ZBS we had last year. Oher is an exceptional athlete, as is Gino. KO and Yanda aren't as quick, but they are still athletic linemen. The only guys on our line at any point this season that didn't fit were McKinnie and Shipley. One was disposed of and one played LG out of necessity. These guys all fit the ZBS.  whether you want to believe it or not.
 
TL;DR?
 
Our guys DO fit the ZBS. We ran the ZBS last year. We went back to some of last year's scheme and we still sucked. Castillo is proven in this league.  It's mostly on the players.
 
Any questions or comments?

my fault,, castillo is a proven person in this league,I agree 100%, do you not agree that when he did show up we did not show up,when we sign him, I honestly thought GREAT move ravens,but in the end there was a problem,idk, In my opinion I think that a coach is suppose to put players in position to excel we was beyond poor and it is difficult to put that on the players.Maybe the players stop playing for him ,hence; he is still the root,I wish I had some answers cause,, 1) why did wilber leave 2)it appears CASTILLO and CADWELL was not on the same page,,,so if you can help me out,maybe I expected to much

[BloodRaven]

If we get a new centre I'd like to see Gino kept on as a backup guard. He's had his flashes in blocking, and for that I think he deserves to remain in the league. I did notice the pocket started looking a lot cleaner for Joe towards the end of the season, so I'd like to go over some of that footage in time and get a better idea of how he improved during the season (while I'm not getting emotional during the games).

 

Thats exactly why he needs to be a backup, because he only flashes the ability to play consistently.

 

Alex Mack would break the bank but we don't need Mack to improve at the position, we need a smart stopgap who can outperform Gino i.e. every free agent centre.

[redravenfan]

I agree the players do have some accountability.But everyone is calling for and mocking a new center for us,,,,,,thats not a position you can play and stick right in there. if we learned anything from gino its they need more then one year to be good. .I don't like the zbs , personal opinion I thought we were fine the way we were but for good or bad we are stuck with it . if it didn't take in the year they forced it on the players , they plan to change at least two players, another rookie center . two or three or four losing seasons folks on these forums go nuts after one loss ,,,,,,,another couple losing seasons and then what.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Did Montgomery get fired? Or, did he choose another job that would allow him more time to do what he wanted and be with family... That, I think, is still a question in many member's/fan's mind... Not sure it is a certain.

He didn't get fired. He chose to leave. Probably has to do w/ harbaugh sticking w/ bff Castillo. Montgomery had enough w/ the circus.

[The Raven]

my fault,, castillo is a proven person in this league,I agree 100%, do you not agree that when he did show up we did not show up,when we sign him, I honestly thought GREAT move ravens,but in the end there was a problem,idk, In my opinion I think that a coach is suppose to put players in position to excel we was beyond poor and it is difficult to put that on the players.Maybe the players stop playing for him ,hence; he is still the root,I wish I had some answers cause,, 1) why did wilber leave 2)it appears CASTILLO and CADWELL was not on the same page,,,so if you can help me out,maybe I expected to much

 

Now we're asking the right questions!

 

I do think the players stopped playing for him (and for the team in general).

 

Oher was given a contract prior to the season, and he felt low balled. His tragically bad season leads me to believe he didn't try after he got "insulted." I know that a few of the linemen were unhappy with the scheme change and the change in terminology. That's something I don't get. Castillo changed the terminology which was a dumb move to me. I think Oher and McKinnie quit on the team. I think KO might not have tried as much under Castillo, but he was injured, too. Gino and Shipley just struggled with inexperience.

 

I don't think Castillo and Caldwell were on different pages. The Colts ran the ZBS while Caldwell was there, and I don't think we would bring in a zone blocking OL coach/run coordinator if our OC didn't want to do the ZBS.

 

As far as Wilbert goes, I don't know. It sounds like he might not have gotten along with Castillo, but that might also be Caldwell wanting to start bringing in his own staff.

[redravenfan]

The ZBS does (or at least should) fit our players. Are our offensive linemen not athletic?

 

On the Caldwell comment, he did fine when had an OL and WRs that could run routes (Boldin). But that is neither here nor there

it should have been successful sadly it wasn't .and tomorrow I pray they don't announce our new oc . we had an above average oline your right and joe ran his offense and we were unstoppable. there was no need to change that

[redravenfan]

He didn't get fired. He chose to leave. Probably has to do w/ harbaugh sticking w/ bff Castillo. Montgomery had enough w/ the circus.

I posted before leach  tweeted after he was released . he was fired because they couldn't run the ball.

[FlocksGottaFeed]

I went back and looked at a play that, at first glance, seemed like a summary of everything that went wrong for our seriously underwhelming offensive line.

 

Here it is on packers.com - I doubt baltimoreravens.com uploaded the footage (frankly can't blame them). If someone can find or make a GIF of that play (or others like it) that would probably be easier.

 

ED: got two quick screenshots. A mod can take them down if I've done anything illegal (pretty sure this would come under fair use as a critique, but what do I know).

 

 

Anyway, here's what went wrong for the line on that play, from left to right:

*Monroe got beat. He wasn't beaten as badly as the rest, and iirc that was his first game as a Raven. Not entirely unforgivable, but Joe would have had to get rid of the ball quickly even if that were the only thing that went wrong.

*Ray Rice and Gino Gradkowski both tried to pick up the same spot... and it was completely the wrong spot anyway. It looks like Rice should have stepped up into the hole Gradkowski left, or Gradkowski should have taken a different spot.

*No matter who's more at fault, we had two guys trying to stop Lennay Kakua (I know our line was bad, but I think that was scheming too hard against her) and no-one picking up AJ Hawk. To me, that looks like a communication issue, but it could also have come from upstairs in the preparations leading up to the game.

*We also had two guys taking (I think) #56. He was the only guy in the area so I can live with that, but you could also argue Yanda should have picked up Hawk.

*Once that 56 guy moved past Yanda, Yanda raced to the left and shut down #76 on the Packers. Understandable, but we already had two guys on him after his delayed rush.

*Michael Oher just got beaten by 56. There's no other way to put this. He was dreadful on that play. He picked up the right guy, but he just got beaten on a straight speed move and could only look on hopelessly as Flacco went down.

 

The bottom line is that we had six guys defending Flacco against five rushers. And three of them got to him anyway (well, the third would have if the other two hadn't beaten him to it). Imagine how they'd have gone WITH Clay Matthews.

 

Anyway, there were plenty more plays like it (plenty more fish in the sea, or in this case plenty more rats in the sewer) so feel free to add a couple if anything stood out to you.

 

However, I think the big question about the line, and ultimately how to fix it, was whether the main problems were personnel (inadequate or not executing) or scheme. That will basically dictate whether we need to attack the o-line in the draft, take up a collection to let someone retire early (or perhaps, someJuan) or both.

 

Seems like a chicken and egg thing, but what are your thoughts? Do we start buying eggs or get better chickens?

Outstanding post! There's so much ugliness in there it's really is hard to pickout what to focus on. I wonder if an audible 'hot' call should have been used. The Packers are known for these types of delayed blitz alignments and schemes. It seems like the receivers didn't react, alert it nor breakoff patterns, as well. I think with all the disfunction that was going-on that you stated with a known Packers alignment added - the best we could have got out of that play would have been a throw-away.

 

Who's at fault? On this play it looks like all the Ravens players (not just OL) and maybe a little bit of play calling and defensive scheme recognition thrown in there for good measure. It's everybody. Ugly.

[jaege]

To me, it's primarily on the players. Why?

 

1: Castillo is a proven offensive line coach in this league. Whether you want to believe it or not, he has done very well. He's proven to be a great teacher on the line. For example, he spent a few seasons coaching at a DII college. In that time, four of his linemen made the NFL. He molded four DII linemen into NFL players. That's pretty great, no? As an NFL line coach, just look at the numbers. Philly's rushing attacks from 1998-2010 were very good. He's a proven commodity, our players aren't.

 

2: In the first half of the season, we struggled greatly. We all know that. But after the bye week, we started incorporating more of last year's blocking scheme. We used a lot more  zone stretch, power, and gap blocking in the second half. But guess what? We STILL struggled. We couldn't execute this year what we executed very well last year. How is that on Castillo?

 

3: If you watched Kansas City and Philly this past weekend, you see that the ZBS is proven to work. It's a great scheme when executed.

 

4. Oh? You don't think our players fit the scheme? They all played in the stretch ZBS we had last year. Oher is an exceptional athlete, as is Gino. KO and Yanda aren't as quick, but they are still athletic linemen. The only guys on our line at any point this season that didn't fit were McKinnie and Shipley. One was disposed of and one played LG out of necessity. These guys all fit the ZBS.  whether you want to believe it or not.

 

TL;DR?

 

Our guys DO fit the ZBS. We ran the ZBS last year. We went back to some of last year's scheme and we still sucked. Castillo is proven in this league.  It's mostly on the players.

 

Any questions or comments? 

 

 

 

Most of the line that you are disparaging, are returning super bowl champions. Castillo is a "buddy" hire from a team that fired him. How many rings does Castillo have? I believe the answer would be somewhere between none and zero. If he is so good why did the Eagles FIRE him?

[The Raven]

Most of the line that you are disparaging, are returning super bowl champions. Castillo is a "buddy" hire from a team that fired him. How many rings does Castillo have? I believe the answer would be somewhere between none and zero. If he is so good why did the Eagles FIRE him?

 

My man, just look at the numbers. The dude is proven to be a good coach. You think Westbrook and McNabb had all that success behind a crappy line?

 

Buddy hire? Nope. He's proven.

 

Only Yanda and Oher played in the SB, by the way. Shipley, Gino, and Monroe didn't. Mathematically, that's not most of the line. 

 

OH! And actually, he was hired as run game coordinator during our SB run... So... I'm assuming he did get a ring then :D :D :D 

[redravenfan]

Montgomery was fired I had to search for the post.

 

VontaLeach44 ‏@vleach44
I hate it for coach that he looks like the fall guy for our running game problems. Coach have had pro bowlers for years in the backfield.