Disturbing Joe Flacco stats?

[wayne]

Oooops ill admit it, no shame, I didnt care to look up stat, but I guess at one point he was number 2 being that the most drops is 10 and he has 7.

Side note to the haters: look at the Elite Drew brees playing like caca. 2 ints, under/over throwing. Should he take a pay cut haha.

So you just blindly put up false stats b/c you didn't care to look up something you tried to use to bail Flacco out that was critical to the topic?

[wayne]

boldin was a stud in arizona.

he was an elite wr before he came to the ravens.

just because he wasent used right here doesent mean he wasent good lol.

 

alot of people here are forgetting 1 important part that would explain alot of questions.

why does torrey has so many drops?

why doesent he get open as much as hilton?

why doesent he has much yards after the catch?

enz...

 

awnser : scheme.

torrey smith was primarly used to go deep which by defenition isent a high % route.

it will hurt a QB completion % and when passes are under thrown it will ask alot of a WR to adjust to make a catch.

probability of a drop is pretty high.

 

it also explains why torrey isent open much nor that he gets alot of yac.

if you looked at hilton today you will see him run alot of different short to medium routes that got him open.

it also helped that he wasent coverd much by either flowers or sean smith who are the chiefs top 2 cbs.

torrey smith did not get the luxery to be 1 on 1 with a safety like abdullah or get drawn 1 on 1 with the 3rd or 4th cb ...

 

in the games where torrey ran a crossing route or a slant he was open and if the pass got to him , he caught it and he got yac.

 

also keep in mind that torrey is 6`0 and not 6`3 or bigger like some of the names he get compared to.

btw torrey smith is the 5th best WR in yards per catch at 17.4

2 of 4 wrs who avg better them him are calvin johnson and josh gordon who are some pretty big guys and no slouches...

 

the other 2 guys are kenny stills and riley cooper.

neither of those 2 are the top receiver on their team and neither of them has caught as many passes as torrey smith.

 

also intresting to know is that torrey smith is tied 6th in the NFL on  receptions over 20 yards

from his 65 catches 20 went over 20 yards which is about 31 %.

only wr who did better was josh gordon who had 30 out of 87 for 34%.

 

guys like jeffrey and decker arent even close and they arent even the top WR on their team lol

 

seriously there should be alot more appreciation for torrey smith.

Agreed. I heard these same people praise Torrey and all of a sudden, they made it out like he was a bum.....all to bail Flacco out. Torrey is a good #2 WR with potential to be a #1 and you got it right about how Hilton is used and how Torrey is used. I find it hard to believe that Hilton is better than Torey, I'm sorry.

[Tru11]

 

.

 

 

Averages do not really tell the tale though. I had a site that broke down how many sacks were under 3.5 seconds and how many were over but they did not update for this season. The hypothesis being that a sack over 3.5 seconds was not due to the O line but either receivers or QB. Of course from that point you could not determine whether it would be a coverage sack or was attributable to the QB.

 

Where are you getting those figures?

 

 

instead of saying you had a site , you can actually post a link to the site ......

 

im guessing but the site he used could be : http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2013/

[Florida Ravens Fan]

boldin was a stud in arizona.
he was an elite wr before he came to the ravens.
just because he wasent used right here doesent mean he wasent good lol.
 
alot of people here are forgetting 1 important part that would explain alot of questions.
why does torrey has so many drops?
why doesent he get open as much as hilton?
why doesent he has much yards after the catch?
enz...
 
awnser : scheme.
torrey smith was primarly used to go deep which by defenition isent a high % route.
it will hurt a QB completion % and when passes are under thrown it will ask alot of a WR to adjust to make a catch.
probability of a drop is pretty high.
 
it also explains why torrey isent open much nor that he gets alot of yac.
if you looked at hilton today you will see him run alot of different short to medium routes that got him open.
it also helped that he wasent coverd much by either flowers or sean smith who are the chiefs top 2 cbs.
torrey smith did not get the luxery to be 1 on 1 with a safety like abdullah or get drawn 1 on 1 with the 3rd or 4th cb ...
 
in the games where torrey ran a crossing route or a slant he was open and if the pass got to him , he caught it and he got yac.
 
also keep in mind that torrey is 6`0 and not 6`3 or bigger like some of the names he get compared to.
btw torrey smith is the 5th best WR in yards per catch at 17.4
2 of 4 wrs who avg better them him are calvin johnson and josh gordon who are some pretty big guys and no slouches...
 
the other 2 guys are kenny stills and riley cooper.
neither of those 2 are the top receiver on their team and neither of them has caught as many passes as torrey smith.
 
also intresting to know is that torrey smith is tied 6th in the NFL on  receptions over 20 yards
from his 65 catches 20 went over 20 yards which is about 31 %.
only wr who did better was josh gordon who had 30 out of 87 for 34%.
 
guys like jeffrey and decker arent even close and they arent even the top WR on their team lol
 
seriously there should be alot more appreciation for torrey smith.

Good post, I don't believe our talent at Wr is all that great, but I agree our problem is mainly scheme (coaching). How many times did we use middle of field (slants, crossing routes etc.)?

[3-4ravdef509]

Thanks man and these Flacco unrealistic fans will try to make it seem like all other QBS have amazing talent to work with when that's not the case, good QBS can make aught guys look great. They just trying to dismiss that b/c Flacco couldn't do it with the Ok supporting cast he has so since he can't do it, let's make the other QBS seem like they have all world talent surrounding them and let's make it like now ( all of a sudden ) Joe has a terrible supporting cast in all phases when that's not true.

One good receiver, an undrafted rookie, and a tight end with bricks for hands....a good cast?

Pitta and Jones were both give for most of the year and even when back weren't 100%. Also a underperforming offensive line, and one of the worst running games ever....

Sorry dude, most quarterbacks wouldn't have faired any better

[ravensdfan]

instead of saying you had a site , you can actually post a link to the site ......

 

im guessing but the site he used could be : http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2013/

 

no that is for the drops.

 

I'm talking about the sack timings but actually that only evaluates the times they were sacked. It doesn't account for hurries & pressures outside of actual sacks.

 

It does no good to post the figures when they were last updated in November.

[wayne]

One good receiver, an undrafted rookie, and a tight end with bricks for hands....a good cast?

Pitta and Jones were both give for most of the year and even when back weren't 100%. Also a underperforming offensive line, and one of the worst running games ever....

Sorry dude, most quarterbacks wouldn't have faired any better

So Jacoby Jones is not a good WR and Marlon didn't show potential? Also, who is the TE with bricks for hands? Also, the O-line underperformed mostly for the run game, not the pass game. Also, never said most would have fared better but I did name the ones that I felt would have.

[Florida Ravens Fan]

So you just blindly put up false stats b/c you didn't care to look up something you tried to use to bail Flacco out that was critical to the topic?

Like I said and admitted too, I didn't care to look it up. I thought I heard the commentators mention it one game. After all the number 1 in drops was 10 he had 7 not a big gap. And Im not trying to "bail" Flacco out of anything, I just refuse to blame him foe everything ok.

[Tru11]

Agreed. I heard these same people praise Torrey and all of a sudden, they made it out like he was a bum.....all to bail Flacco out. Torrey is a good #2 WR with potential to be a #1 and you got it right about how Hilton is used and how Torrey is used. I find it hard to believe that Hilton is better than Torey, I'm sorry.

 

well to be fair im not going as far as you and some others are going in blaiming flacco lol.

yall a lil bit extreme to me.

 

on that same note i will also speak against all the flacco lovers who wanna blame torrey smith or the defense lol.

or say crazy stuff like the broncos/pats o-line being much better then the ravens or receivers like hilton and decker being better that torrey smith.

not to mention some actually believing that flacco is just as good as peyton manning just because both have 1 SB win .....

 

some flacco lovers have some very extreme views as well .....

[wayne]

Like I said and admitted too, I didn't care to look it up. I thought I heard the commentators mention it one game. After all the number 1 in drops was 10 he had 7 not a big gap. And Im not trying to "bail" Flacco out of anything, I just refuse to blame him foe everything ok.

I understand that but if yall going to criticize me for not bringing stats to the table, don't bring false stats to the table,lol. We are having a decent debate or dispute or whatever you want to call it..... and lets leave it at that. I can accept the fact that someone disagree with me..... it's not that serious....... no money whatsoever is being put in my pocket to dispute rather Flacco is a decent QB or elite and at the end of the day, I really don't care when you think about life in general. This is not that serious.

[wayne]

well to be fair im not going as far as you and some others are going in blaiming flacco lol.

yall a lil bit extreme to me.

 

on that same note i will also speak against all the flacco lovers who wanna blame torrey smith or the defense lol.

or say crazy stuff like the broncos/pats o-line being much better then the ravens or receivers like hilton and decker being better that torrey smith.

not to mention some actually believing that flacco is just as good as peyton manning just because both have 1 SB win .....

 

some flacco lovers have some very extreme views as well .....

But that's the only reason I be very critical of Flacco for those same reasons you just listed. I can't see how anyone in their right mind would say Flacco is on the same level with Brady and Manning or they would take Flacco b4 Brady and Manning,lol. I actually like Flacco but within reason though and I felt he's being used wrong. They are trying to use him like Brady and Manning and like Ray Lewis said, that's not him. Reminds me when James Harrison publicly said Big Ben isn't Peyton Manning and he needs to stop trying to be Peyton Manning.

[Florida Ravens Fan]

I understand that but if yall going to criticize me for not bringing stats to the table, don't bring false stats to the table,lol. We are having a decent debate or dispute or whatever you want to call it..... and lets leave it at that. I can accept the fact that someone disagree with me..... it's not that serious....... no money whatsoever is being put in my pocket to dispute rather Flacco is a decent QB or elite and at the end of the day, I really don't care when you think about life in general. This is not that serious.

Lol same here, were just fans with opinions, I dont take this serious at all ;-). And by the way I never mentioned anything about you bringing stats. :-)

[Tru11]

no that is for the drops.

 

I'm talking about the sack timings but actually that only evaluates the times they were sacked. It doesn't account for hurries & pressures outside of actual sacks.

 

It does no good to post the figures when they were last updated in November.

 

so where are you getting your figures from?

 

Like I said and admitted too, I didn't care to look it up. I thought I heard the commentators mention it one game. After all the number 1 in drops was 10 he had 7 not a big gap. And Im not trying to "bail" Flacco out of anything, I just refuse to blame him foe everything ok.

 

commentators are a load of crap TBH.

i remember them saying oher had most penalties for false since 2009 starts with something in the 40 total lol

he only had 3 false starts this season and 3 holding calls.

everyone is trashing him but few know that yanda had more pen on him with 7 tied with shipley.....

5 of them where false starts.....

[ravensdfan]

so where are you getting your figures from?

 

 

lol I wasn't the one who posted the timings. That was why I asked.

 

But then I thought about it and it only evaluates the actual plays where they were sacked. I was talking about on plays in general and you're not going to get an actual stat for that. Just like I can watch Foles right now and see how much time he has on the majority of his plays. I think Flacco had that kind of time maybe 6 times all season lol

[The Mom Gene]

Thanks guys for getting this thing back on track.  We Appreciate a constructive discussion... 

[Tru11]

lol I wasn't the one who posted the timings. That was why I asked.

 

But then I thought about it and it only evaluates the actual plays where they were sacked. I was talking about on plays in general and you're not going to get an actual stat for that. Just like I can watch Foles right now and see how much time he has on the majority of his plays. I think Flacco had that kind of time maybe 6 times all season lol

 

ah okay got cha lol.

i tought you was posting stats as well.

 

5 in the morning here so probaly read some of the replies wrong hahaha.

[ravensdfan]

well to be fair im not going as far as you and some others are going in blaiming flacco lol.

yall a lil bit extreme to me.

 

on that same note i will also speak against all the flacco lovers who wanna blame torrey smith or the defense lol.

or say crazy stuff like the broncos/pats o-line being much better then the ravens or receivers like hilton and decker being better that torrey smith.

not to mention some actually believing that flacco is just as good as peyton manning just because both have 1 SB win .....

 

some flacco lovers have some very extreme views as well .....

 

Except their O lines were better.

 

For run blocking, NE's line is ranked #1 on the season. The Broncos are ranked #8. Us? #32.

 

Pass pro Broncos are ranked #1, NE #9 and Ravens 16th. For wayne, Indy was ranked #6.

 

As for Decker & Hilton compared to Torrey, they are better route runners right now. They simply are. They are better at getting separation. They simply are. Certainly Torrey's separation issues this season can be partly attributed to teams double & triple teaming him because we had no other real threats when Jacoby went down while Decker & Hilton face more single coverage.

 

Are they faster than Torrey? Are they the vertical threat that Torrey is? No.

 

Yardage wise Decker is ranked #4 and Torrey & Hilton are # 29th & 30th. However, their value over average, Torrey is ranked at a negative 2.2 and Hilton at a positive .7. Decker's VOA is 21.2%.

 

The fact remains that our top target had a drop rate over 5 while the top targets of successful teams come in under 3.

[Tru11]

Except their O lines were better.

 

For run blocking, NE's line is ranked #1 on the season. The Broncos are ranked #8. Us? #32.

 

Pass pro Broncos are ranked #1, NE #9 and Ravens 16th.

 

As for Decker & Hilton compared to Torrey, they are better route runners right now. They simply are. They are better at getting separation. They simply are. Certainly Torrey's separation issues this season can be partly attributed to teams double & triple teaming him because we had no other real threats when Jacoby went down while Decker & Hilton face more single coverage.

 

Are they faster than Torrey? Are they the vertical threat that Torrey is? No.

 

The fact remains that our top target had a drop rate over 5 while the top targets of successful teams come in under 3.

 

where are you getting these rankings from?

also no the broncos o-line isent better.

the broncos QB is better and he makes that o-line and receivers look good.

the broncos are playing without their top 2 o-liners who play LT and C which are basicially the most important positions as well.

 

 

Decker and Hilton get better seperation because  they arent coverd by the opponent best CB nor is there a safety over the top.

It also helps that decker aint the top WR on his team and it also helps Hilton gets put in the slot.

Torrey smith doesent enjoy these luxeries.

in decker case it also helps that he has an QB thats alot more accurate then what torrey gets to play with.

also for the record D.Thomas is the top target on the broncos and not decker.

 

decker or hilton on our team doing what smith did would not lead to better stats then smith.

smith on their team doing what they did im am positive he would have put up better stats.

 

 

 

 

also where do you get these drop stats from???

[StingerNLG]

First few games yet Flacco played bad for most of the season. Also, sure on every team with young wrs ( Hilton for instance ) , they run the wrong routes from time to time. Brady WRs was running the wrong routes like crazy early on

 

 

And yet Brady's completion % and QBR is right there with Flacco's this year.   

 

You have got to start looking these things up before you roll this stuff out man.   Seriously.    This was already detailed in another thread.

[ravensdfan]

where are you getting these rankings from?

also no the broncos o-line isent better.

the broncos QB is better and he makes that o-line and receivers look good.

the broncos are playing without their top 2 o-liners who play LT and C which are basicially the most important positions as well.

 

 

Decker and Hilton get better seperation because  they arent coverd by the opponent best CB nor is there a safety over the top.

It also helps that decker aint the top WR on his team and it also helps Hilton gets put in the slot.

Torrey smith doesent enjoy these luxeries.

in decker case it also helps that he has an QB thats alot more accurate then what torrey gets to play with.

also for the record D.Thomas is the top target on the broncos and not decker.

 

decker or hilton on our team doing what smith did would not lead to better stats then smith.

smith on their team doing what they did im am positive he would have put up better stats.

 

 

 

 

also where do you get these drop stats from???

 

 

football outsiders. You can find all sorts of facts there.

 

lol

 

you & wayne can't keep asking for stats and then throwing them out when they prove you incorrect.

 

Their O line is better. Statsitically their O line is just better. Period.Your argument might hold some water if it was close but it isn't.

 

I found it interesting while I was rummaging through everything there - that our O line ranked in the Top 10 for run blocking  in 2010 & 2011 and no lower than 12th for pass pro while NE's O line has consistently been in the Top 10 (mostly better than 6th) for pass pro in the last five years.

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods

 

As I already stated, certainly coverage plays a part in that, especially this year. His value adjusted for defense (meaning CB talent & double teams) goes up to over 1%.

 

I didn't say Decker was the top target, I only compared him because you made the claim he is not better than Torrey. Statistically, he is by a pretty fair margin.  I did not look up his drop rate again (though i had previously) but if I recall correctly it is up there with Torrey's, possibly even higher. You do realize that it also helps his QBs accuracy that he rarely throws beyond 20 yards right? That Peyton is so much more accurate argument really is deceptive in that manner.

 

No Torrey doesn't have the luxury of slot, slants etc. Neither does Flacco.

 

My entire point at the beginning of this thread was that I don't find these stats disturbing because it is our scheme. I don't find the INTs disturbing because we have 5 years to show it is an anomoly and not the norm.

 

Really I despise our scheme. I think it's bad for Flacco and bad for our receivers and relies too heavily on a successful run game, which we saw this past season.

[Willbacker]

But that's the only reason I be very critical of Flacco for those same reasons you just listed. I can't see how anyone in their right mind would say Flacco is on the same level with Brady and Manning or they would take Flacco b4 Brady and Manning,lol. I actually like Flacco but within reason though and I felt he's being used wrong. They are trying to use him like Brady and Manning and like Ray Lewis said, that's not him. Reminds me when James Harrison publicly said Big Ben isn't Peyton Manning and he needs to stop trying to be Peyton Manning.

Kind of the reason I'm not liking using shotgun or pistol plays 90% of the time. Flacco can't read Ds like Manning and it kills his play action fakes.

[wayne]

And yet Brady's completion % and QBR is right there with Flacco's this year.   

 

You have got to start looking these things up before you roll this stuff out man.   Seriously.    This was already detailed in another thread.

You got to tell your fellow Flacco homers that too and I don't need to look that up b/c even though their completion percentage is close, you can look at the QBs yourself and see which one is the better. Stats can be misleading .