Fire________, Cut________ Rant, Patriots version

[flynismo]

Look dude, Fly and I have refuted every single claim you've made.

Not going to stop him from repeating himself over and over again.

[HoldingCall]

Which guys are you referring to when you ask this? How many truly top-tier WRs throughout the league weren't drafted in the 1st? Outside of guys like Josh Gordon, Brandon Marshall, Jordy Nelson, Alshon Jeffery and Vincent Jackson, there aren't any. 

 

I don't see what the big mystery is. The guys we have simply aren't talented enough. Torrey's made strides but simply won't ever be the type of WR to take over a game and unless the play design gets better, he'll continue to go through long stretches of anonymity. That Marlon is even contributing this year is a sign he's developed since the team took a flier on him in spring. I don't know what his ceiling is but he's definitely got talent. Jacoby was perennial disappoint in Houston. I love what he's brought to Baltimore but he was never going to develop into more here. Doss has essentially been a bust and the chances of Thompson developing into a good NFL WR were slim considering what he did at Florida. 

 

Beyond simply designing better plays, if the team wants "spectacular" at the WR position, they'll have to invest a top pick in one or move up. Unless a great talent falls to them in the draft next year, I highly doubt they trade up for one. So they'll probably have to continue developing Torrey, Marlon, a rookie WR (I'll be shocked if they don't draft one period) and maybe even Aaron Mellette.

 

I believe it's the system, QB, and the receivers together, its called chemistry. The chemistry I speak of includes timing,  communication, and coaching . A system used should make them all better but I don't see it here. Torrey started this season blazing, so what happened? Was it the play calls? The QB? Did Torrey suddenly stop trying? I think not! I see it as the same problem that allows us to run a successful screen or other play during a game then not run it again. Many teams will go back to something that works multiple times during a game but we do not, but will redo repeatedly what isn't working.

 

I find it interesting that Q's first year in San Fran, he surpasses all his years here in yardage and gets his most since the Arizona days.  How does that happen? While Q was here I read fan post stating he was too old, slow, could not get separation, etc, all while ignoring the aspects of the game that causes him to look that way. Now the same is being talked about of other receivers. At some point one should look at the system which means coaching and more. 

 

I've already mentioned Torrey, but the same happened to Marlon Brown, after his good start in touchdowns he suddenly disappeared from red-zone plays for a stretch during mid-season, why? Once again the team, gets away from what works way to often and stays away far to long. 

[HoldingCall]

What? We're not even talking about Flacco. But yes, it is Flaccos fault that Torrey is second in the league in dropped passes, and that Torrey has had trouble tracking the ball since his days as a Terp. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

I suspect the system may have to accept much of the blame. There is a limit to the number of subsequent times one can run deep routes and remain fresh/strong enough to remain aggressive with the ball. I question the timing and spacing of those routes and the number vs short routes Torrey runs in a game. My point is that obviously something has gone wrong. I believe when given the correct mix of routes Torrey's production will greatly improve.

 

I am seeing many focus on one aspects without stepping back to view the entire scenery. Things are far from perfect but I think they are correctable from a coaching point, thus making unnecessary for a super talent to show up and save them. With a few exceptions, I believe the talent is here but needs to be better utilized.

[Tank 92]

It's interesting that you mention that. Bill Belicheck just went on record saying that he thinks the practice limitations of the new CBA have caused more injuries. I wonder if might be responsible for things like that as well (assuming he is correct).

 

 

 

I said this back in the summer after reading an article about possible affects of the new CBA.  If you can't practice like you play, skills and team play will suffer. With the limitations on time spent practicing and full contact we are seeing more and more mediocrity throughout the league. Obviously it will have a greater affect on younger players and teams with more new faces.

 

It would seem that certain aspects of the CBA need to be revisited.

[jazz1988]

Which guys are you referring to when you ask this? How many truly top-tier WRs throughout the league weren't drafted in the 1st? Outside of guys like Josh Gordon, Brandon Marshall, Jordy Nelson, Alshon Jeffery and Vincent Jackson, there aren't any. 

 

I don't see what the big mystery is. The guys we have simply aren't talented enough. Torrey's made strides but simply won't ever be the type of WR to take over a game and unless the play design gets better, he'll continue to go through long stretches of anonymity. That Marlon is even contributing this year is a sign he's developed since the team took a flier on him in spring. I don't know what his ceiling is but he's definitely got talent. Jacoby was perennial disappoint in Houston. I love what he's brought to Baltimore but he was never going to develop into more here. Doss has essentially been a bust and the chances of Thompson developing into a good NFL WR were slim considering what he did at Florida. 

 

Beyond simply designing better plays, if the team wants "spectacular" at the WR position, they'll have to invest a top pick in one or move up. Unless a great talent falls to them in the draft next year, I highly doubt they trade up for one. So they'll probably have to continue developing Torrey, Marlon, a rookie WR (I'll be shocked if they don't draft one period) and maybe even Aaron Mellette.

 

 

   I think the ravens receivers are talented enough.Smith, Jones, Brown, Doss and Thompson  have all made nice plays but none of them are consistent(since Jones is a veteran I guess his case Is different). The reason why most of them are not consistent enough is due to poor play calling  at times and of course they can blame them selves  but theres no way the wide receiver coach shouldn't take blame as well.

 

   The ravens are famous for having a good defense to the point they could probably sign a mediocre defensive player and make him look beyond mediocre due to right coaching and the right scheme but when was the last time they were able to do the same for a offensive player? The ravens literally made  Boldin look average for the past three years when he was here  but now that he is with the 49ers the guy is  putting up 1,000 + receiving yards again and to me that saids a lot. Torrey Smith has had a good year stat wise  and he has improved as a receiver but  I think its fair to say he isn't as good or  shown his true potentials because of poor play calling.

 

If the Ravens do decide to draft or sign a very good wideout im sure It will help but I wont expect it  to make the Ravens offense different as a whole especially if the offensive coaching staff doesn't change and gets smarter. I think its weird that Thompson isn't seeing much playing time especially since the coaches had so much high praise for him even Caldwell went on to say he was a good route runner.

[jazz1988]

Their talents are obvious. Sure those guys have been coached up, Nelson probably especially. However, they've still got more natural talent than any WR on this team. Gordon and Jeffery are second-year players excelling primarily on raw ability. 

 

Hmmm maybe  but for some reason I think Gordon and Jeffery would look mediocre here as well

[Ed_Reed20]

Hmmm maybe  but for some reason I think Gordon and Jeffery would look mediocre here as well

 

I really don't think so. This team's passing game has way too many low-percentage plays but those guys have clearly shown they're special enough to bring down most balls.

[TDubbs]

This team's passing game has way too many low-percentage plays but those guys have clearly shown they're special enough to bring down most balls.

 

Give Flacco either of those guys, of whom he can throw balls into coverage and just give the guy a chance. Those guys are special, and would be superstars here. That's the type of guy we need to find in the draft, and high too. 

[darklight1216]

I said this back in the summer after reading an article about possible affects of the new CBA.  If you can't practice like you play, skills and team play will suffer. With the limitations on time spent practicing and full contact we are seeing more and more mediocrity throughout the league. Obviously it will have a greater affect on younger players and teams with more new faces.

 

It would seem that certain aspects of the CBA need to be revisited.

Good call on that.

 

I wonder if the practices might also be a reason for the defense's inability to tackle like in years past. 

[PurpleCityLights]

Do you ever blame anything on Flacco,lol.

You know thats not going to happen lol.

[wayne]

Do you ever blame something on not Flacco? Look dude, Fly and I have refuted every single claim you've made. Until you come up with new material for your stand up, it's time for you to log out.

 

I beg the differ ....... you have a hand full of you guys on here that feel the way you do about Flacco while majority of the country, maybe including majority of Ravens fans feel different. Please stop with the " have refuted " comments, especially when majority of the nation feel the same way I do about the situation, including former Ravens.

What? We're not even talking about Flacco. But yes, it is Flaccos fault that Torrey is second in the league in dropped passes, and that Torrey has had trouble tracking the ball since his days as a Terp. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

Well, the old " if it hits your hands, you should catch it " statement is true to a certain extent. WR's can catch ball's obviously better if they are accurately thrown.

Not going to stop him from repeating himself over and over again.

Or yall not doing the same thing,lol?

[wayne]

You know thats not going to happen lol.

It's really sad though man and it's getting old. No other player on this team is getting a pass like that so how can you give Flacco a pass. Look at Ray Rice for example. You guys crucify from running behind the same supposely screwed op offensive line that you give Flacco an excuse to his bad play. If that's not a double standard, I don't know what is. Like I said in the other thread, you would think Flacco has 0 to work with or you would think he's the only QB out there faced with adversary. When Flacco plays bad it's the running game or it's the play calling or it's the WRs or it's the offensive line....... that's a obvious pattern right there, is it now,lol?

[jazz1988]

I really don't think so. This team's passing game has way too many low-percentage plays but those guys have clearly shown they're special enough to bring down most balls.

 

You have a point  but I also doubt Gordon and Jeffery are running deep routes all the time like our receivers.. I'm sure there is some creativity from the offensive coordinator in which helps  Gordon and Jeffery to get open. When we went against the bears I don't remember seeing Jeffery beat none of our cornerbacks base off vanilla route running and  I thought for sure I saw more than that..

[Ed_Reed20]

It's really sad though man and it's getting old. No other player on this team is getting a pass like that so how can you give Flacco a pass. Look at Ray Rice for example. You guys crucify from running behind the same supposely screwed op offensive line that you give Flacco an excuse to his bad play. If that's not a double standard, I don't know what is. Like I said in the other thread, you would think Flacco has 0 to work with or you would think he's the only QB out there faced with adversary. When Flacco plays bad it's the running game or it's the play calling or it's the WRs or it's the offensive line....... that's a obvious pattern right there, is it now,lol?

 

I loved the supposedly. Like the o-line hasn't been clearly poor in all facets of the game all season. 

[Ed_Reed20]

You have a point  but I also doubt Gordon and Jeffery are running deep routes all the time like our receivers.. I'm sure there is some creativity from the offensive coordinator in which helps  Gordon and Jeffery to get open. When we went against the bears I don't remember seeing Jeffery beat none of our cornerbacks base off vanilla route running and  I thought for sure I saw more than that..

 

Agreed to an extent. Tressman has done a great job in Chicago and that has helped Jeffery. Still, looking at the big plays both have made all year, they're QBs routinely just lob the ball up to them and let them get it. I'm not saying play-calling has been a non-factor but freakish talent has been the driving force behind their production. 

[The Raven]

I beg the differ ....... you have a hand full of you guys on here that feel the way you do about Flacco while majority of the country, maybe including majority of Ravens fans feel different. Please stop with the " have refuted " comments, especially when majority of the nation feel the same way I do about the situation, including former Ravens.

 

 

And that means it's right? :D Wow!

 

Sorry, I look at facts and real evidence, not the opinions of people who don't know what they're talking about... By the way, a few former Ravens and non Ravens have come out in strong support of him. 

[Tank 92]

It's really sad though man and it's getting old. No other player on this team is getting a pass like that so how can you give Flacco a pass.

 

 

 

hmmmmm........... You mean a pass like Ray Ray got for 3 or 4 years?  When you know a man is exceptional at what he does,  you give him a pass when things are down.

[5aiah]

Agreed to an extent. Tressman has done a great job in Chicago and that has helped Jeffery. Still, looking at the big plays both have made all year, they're QBs routinely just lob the ball up to them and let them get it. I'm not saying play-calling has been a non-factor but freakish talent has been the driving force behind their production. 

It really is. People keep talking about other receiving corps and how they are helped by play calling and ours isn't but they continue to overestimate our talent in that department. The biggest plays for Alshon are ones where the talent delivers more than the play call helped. Like that amazing throw by McCown where he put it in a place where only Alshon could get it and then he made the insane spectacular catch in traffic to make it happen. Thats stuff Alshon is doing on a regular basis, using his size and natural ability to make plays happen when given a chance. Marlon Brown could be that guy and Streeter was who ravens fans wanted to be that guy but we don't actually have one yet. People talk of our play calling not being on par with offenses like the patriots and how those receivers get open so much but they fail to realize that's talent. The patriots look for extremely talented route runners or guys with insane potential in that area in every position(WR,TE, and HB). We just haven't reached the talent level yet needed to make this system work. 

[izvoodoo]

I love how you guys are talking about receivers instead of linemen.  If we had a center and a healthy KO we'd be doing much much better than if we had Alshon Jeffrey. 

[5aiah]

I love how you guys are talking about receivers instead of linemen.  If we had a center and a healthy KO we'd be doing much much better than if we had Alshon Jeffrey. 

Actually I've been harping on talent on both the line and receiving corps. We need a center a RT and a LG. Hopefully KO comes back fine and can prove more durable than before but even if he does we need more talent and depth on the line like the patriots do. One of their lineman(a stud) goes down they can still plug someone in and keep going(en route to a 41-7 romp over us). Like the patriots, with how much we rely on a good offensive line we need to build a deeper more talented one.

[The Raven]

Actually I've been harping on talent on both the line and receiving corps. We need a center a RT and a LG. Hopefully KO comes back fine and can prove more durable than before but even if he does we need more talent and depth on the line like the patriots do. One of their lineman(a stud) goes down they can still plug someone in and keep going(en route to a 41-7 romp over us). Like the patriots, with how much we rely on a good offensive line we need to build a deeper more talented one.

 

What separates us from the Patriots is that they're actually willing to pay their offensive linemen the big money. They pay their backups what we pay starters.

[izvoodoo]

What separates us from the Patriots is that they're actually willing to pay their offensive linemen the big money. They pay their backups what we pay starters.

Well they also don't have a secondary or receiving core to invest into.  Or much of a defense.  The Patriots have some of the best coached linemen though, I think that's the really great part.

[The Raven]

Well they also don't have a secondary or receiving core to invest into.  Or much of a defense.  The Patriots have some of the best coached linemen though, I think that's the really great part.

 

They don't invest into the secondary or receiving core because they don't need to. They invest in the OL because that's what really wins games. Their formula is proven.

 

And yeah, their OL coach is the best in the league at what he does.

[5aiah]

They don't invest into the secondary or receiving core because they don't need to. They invest in the OL because that's what really wins games. Their formula is proven.

 

And yeah, their OL coach is the best in the league at what he does.

Exactly. We need to bolster our line because we rely on it so much. I think with another off season of working with our guys who have potential we can build a better line. But this year is a reminder of just how much we rely on run blocking to power our entire offense. We need good backups who we can plug in when someone's play falls off or gets injured. I'm very interested in Ricky Wagner going forward at RT and Ryan Jensen depending on where he will eventually play.

[The Raven]

Exactly. We need to bolster our line because we rely on it so much. I think with another off season of working with our guys who have potential we can build a better line. But this year is a reminder of just how much we rely on run blocking to power our entire offense. We need good backups who we can plug in when someone's play falls off or gets injured. I'm very interested in Ricky Wagner going forward at RT and Ryan Jensen depending on where he will eventually play.

 

I don't think we rely on it any more than every other team in the NFL. We don't rely on run blocking for our entire offense. We just need a run game that can average 4 yards a carry and convert 3rd and 1. That hasn't happened this season.

[rondubs]

the Ravens problem are not with just the receivers. Torrey is a speedster and a very capable #1 but excellent #2. None of the other receivers have any consistency but can play in the NFL. The issue IS with the coaching and especially the OC Cam Cameron oooops im sorry Jim Caldwell. In the past our team won with its STAR players. If you noticed this year, Ray Rice was not as much a part of the game plan this year. The Ravens put its success in Joe Flaccos hands and I hope that they learned from that experience. Our team should always be based on a BALANCE of Joe AND Ray. Not one or the other. Our team changed its strategy with all of the designed shotguns for Joe to see the field better which hurts the run game's success. Can you imagine Adian Pererson being happy running from a draw or pistol formation on nearly all of his touches? With no fullback? Just straight forward with no misdirection or challenges for the defense? I bet we on this site could line up and stop the Ravens run game or not be hurt by it. And what About Ray on screens or MORE dump passes etc? Hey Diddle Diddle? Well the Ravens decided that it was best to go in another direction and hand the game over to Joe but sorry Joe is not Payton or Drew Brees. He is a strong competitor with heart but if you notice, he never puts up number like the big guns like Rodgers even. He is a complimentary piece. The Ravens should have never gone to the pass happy look of other teams. They should have stuck to their identity. Thats how they made the PLAYOFFS every year by staying balanced. Having good pass AND run plays in the playbook. This year they abandoned the run after the new scheme of Castillos was falling. Even Mckinney said that was the biggest issue in the run game with the OL trying to adjust to the scheme versus just blocking plus the center was also trying to figure out the protection and blocking assignments. I think they should have kept working on that to improve because they have the players to win. Also, I hate to say it but they put too much emphasis on Pitta as a replacement to Bolden. Pitta has not show that he can be a probowler but is another complimentary piece. They should not have traded Bolden who just had a 1000 yard season with San Fran. If they couldnt keep Bolden then they should have picked up a possesion guy to replace him. A mason type. Big or small but someone Joe could depend on. Hell id have given a first rounder for Josh Gordon. Would have been a huge risk but heck Gordon and Smith AND Pitta AND Rice/Pierce?? That makes Joe look alot smaller and smalle is better for Joe. Hes good with Great players. All positions included (including the OL). Well it would have been nice but ill be the first again to say it....the Ravens had better address the OC position this off season if it wants to win while is star players are still able to run and compete with the best.

[5aiah]

I don't think we rely on it any more than every other team in the NFL. We don't rely on run blocking for our entire offense. We just need a run game that can average 4 yards a carry and convert 3rd and 1. That hasn't happened this season.

I think we do rely on the run blocking more than most teams because even our pass game is built to succeed alongside a powerful run game. We need a run game that averages 4-5 yards a carry and can convert 3rd and short(up to 3rd and 4). That takes pressure off of the pass game and makes it easier for them to convert 3rd downs with more holes in zone,more opportunities deep and easier reads overall for Flacco.

[The Raven]

I think we do rely on the run blocking more than most teams because even our pass game is built to succeed alongside a powerful run game. We need a run game that averages 4-5 yards a carry and can convert 3rd and short(up to 3rd and 4). That takes pressure off of the pass game and makes it easier for them to convert 3rd downs with more holes in zone,more opportunities deep and easier reads overall for Flacco.

 

Well, what team doesn't need a run game like that?

[5aiah]

Well, what team doesn't need a run game like that?

A team that has great route runners and possession receivers. A team with a beast pass blocking line that gives the QB extra time. A team with a great TE or high quality security blanket. A team whose offensive deceptiveness and creativity isn't tied to a strong run game. 

[The Raven]

A team that has great route runners and possession receivers. A team with a beast pass blocking line that gives the QB extra time. A team with a great TE or high quality security blanket. A team whose offensive deceptiveness and creativity isn't tied to a strong run game. 

 

Ha, true I'll give you that