Fire________, Cut________ Rant, Patriots version

[Jokerraven]

Why is that?  That's the question being presented here.  Is it due to their lack of playing time, talent or coaching?  Cause Torrey, Jacoby, Marlon and Doss seem talented to me.  It makes me wonder.

 

#Mili

coaching and ozzie has a terrible history when it comes to wide receivers, I know its not popular to say that . another poster said that in 17 drafted wideouts one ,Torrey, had over 1000 yards in a season. I didn't believe it  come to find out he was correct . add that to joe not having time to throw or the receivers having time to run routes . another handicap too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

[H8R]

None of our receivers are exceptional route runners so why would they be open unless they are finding holes in zones or beating their man with speed? This offense wasn't really built to run this way and it shows. The only particularly good route runners we've had this year are Stokley and Pitta, but both of them can be handled by getting physical with them. You can't blame the receivers when you ask them do do something they aren't adept at, especially when you have specialized receivers like ours. People ask why Joe doesn't put up big numbers, its because his receiving corps is built to compliment a powerful, fear inducing run game. The best route runner on the team is the TE, that says enough.

I'd have to strongly disagree. We don't have a big Oline, we don't use a FB much and our WRs are pretty small... so, for a strog run game those guys need to block... I think it's just opposite. We EXPECT our smaller, faster WRs to be open, but they rarely are. They don't win one on one matchups because they're not technically sound WRs... They NEED to be. That's what they're paid for. Even Torrey... sloppy routes , uncertain hands etc...

[H8R]

Why is that? That's the question being presented here. Is it due to their lack of playing time, talent or coaching? Cause Torrey, Jacoby, Marlon and Doss seem talented to me. It makes me wonder.

#Mili

I think it's an overall talent issue. Sure our guys has talent, I wouldn't say otherwise.... but AJ And Demarius are physical specimens that can also play with the best of them.

[TSizzle00]

come on now man.

 

that pass was underthrown.

 

its not easy to stop when running a full speed and then adjust and try to catch a ball with defenders catching up to you to break it up.

 

TBH this season flacco seems to not be able to hit his wrs in stride and it often seems they have to adjust alot to passes thrown to them.

 

this game probaly had alot to do with his knee and well it doesent help the o-line sucks most of the time either...

this teams problems are on the o-line...

 

Underthrown or not, he adjusted his body and the ball touched his hands and the core of his body. I'm not saying the catch was easy but the fact is the ball was in his hands. Im tired of this notion that the Ravens WRs need a perfect pass to bring in a football when many other teams fight to bring it in no matter what. Hines Ward made a career catching Bens poorly thrown ground balls that were basically uncatchable for a WR taller than him.

[jaege]

Underthrown or not, he adjusted his body and the ball touched his hands and the core of his body. I'm not saying the catch was easy but the fact is the ball was in his hands. Im tired of this notion that the Ravens WRs need a perfect pass to bring in a football when many other teams fight to bring it in no matter what. Hines Ward made a career catching Bens poorly thrown ground balls that were basically uncatchable for a WR taller than him.

Have to agree. It is a WRs job to catch the ball. Any ball that is thrown his way. That is what they are paid to do. If I was getting millions of dollars to catch a ball, I sure as (heck) would do it.

[jazz1988]

Why is that?  That's the question being presented here.  Is it due to their lack of playing time, talent or coaching?  Cause Torrey, Jacoby, Marlon and Doss seem talented to me.  It makes me wonder.

 

#Mili

 

 

In my opinion I believe  Torrey , Jacoby , Marlon , Doss, and Thompson are very talented but they are held back  because of play calling not fitting there strength and  coaching.

[Militant X 1]

In my opinion I believe  Torrey , Jacoby , Marlon , Doss, and Thompson are very talented but they are held back  because of play calling not fitting there strength and  coaching.

I agree to this!

 

#Mili

[Moderator 3]

Have to agree. It is a WRs job to catch the ball. Any ball that is thrown his way. That is what they are paid to do. If I was getting millions of dollars to catch a ball, I sure as (heck) would do it.

Every week I see receivers on other teams make plays. Very few passes are truly exactly on target. The receiver has to go get the ball. Our crew just does not have that play making gene or something. Where are the one-handed catches? The tightropes on the sidelines, the leaping/diving over the DB? Our season highlight reel is sadly short, as is our total points.

[HoldingCall]

Joe throws the ball on time Torrey makes that catch and scores.

Agreed! Receivers do not get open and stay open there's a window of time and the ball must arrive in that window of time. I've seen drops and I've seen balls over and under thrown. Neither the receivers nor Joe are always at fault, they share the blame. The same way Joe get paid to deliver catchable balls the receivers are paid to catch catchable balls. Pitta's interception was just out of reach, I didn't fault him only. Just like Marlon Brown allowed his to be intercepted from Taylor and I didn't fault him only.

 

It is interesting to read post that attempts to place blame on either the receivers or QB while easily forgetting or forgiving the other.  I watched Calvin Megatron Johnson drop enough balls that would have won them the game and Matthew Stafford helped seal the deal with his interception. Both had problems and the same goes with our team. 

 

This shouldn't be about taking sides when it is obviously a whole team issue involving timing, delivery, and catching. Joe is often running for his life while receivers are being held, blocked or otherwise slowed causing timing to become an issue to be worked out. 

[ratedr]

Agreed! Receivers do not get open and stay open there's a window of time and the ball must arrive in that window of time. I've seen drops and I've seen balls over and under thrown. Neither the receivers nor Joe are always at fault, they share the blame. The same way Joe get paid to deliver catchable balls the receivers are paid to catch catchable balls. Pitta's interception was just out of reach, I didn't fault him only. Just like Marlon Brown allowed his to be intercepted from Taylor and I didn't fault him only.

It is interesting to read post that attempts to place blame on either the receivers or QB while easily forgetting or forgiving the other. I watched Calvin Megatron Johnson drop enough balls that would have won them the game and Matthew Stafford helped seal the deal with his interception. Both had problems and the same goes with our team.

This shouldn't be about taking sides when it is obviously a whole team issue involving timing, delivery, and catching. Joe is often running for his life while receivers are being held, blocked or otherwise slowed causing timing to become an issue to be worked out.

Great post.

[TXRavensFan]

All true . Torrey has been pretty awful for a good stretch now. He just doesn't seem to make those contested catches. In that aspect, Marlon and Jacoby are better. Not sure what Torrey's deal is. Also, when is the last time you saw any of our WRs BESIDES Marlon actually comeback to Joe or follow him while he's scrambling? This is just a poorly coached unit, I stand by that!
I wish we had a OC like Gruden or McDaniels or McCarthy... heck, maybe even Kubiak.

Kyle Shanahan, he wants to get out from his dad's shadow, and I'm sure would love to get out of that rotting franchise...not to mention it'd be a short move for his family, if he even needed to move...

[varaven]

http://youtu.be/clZ5pdrc_X8?t=1m41s

my sentiments

[Tru11]

Underthrown or not, he adjusted his body and the ball touched his hands and the core of his body. I'm not saying the catch was easy but the fact is the ball was in his hands. Im tired of this notion that the Ravens WRs need a perfect pass to bring in a football when many other teams fight to bring it in no matter what. Hines Ward made a career catching Bens poorly thrown ground balls that were basically uncatchable for a WR taller than him.

 

actually WRs need a perfect pass if you want them to turn a normal play into a big play.

also since the QB gets paid the most the should be the one throwing the perfect plass and not expect the lesser paid WR to bail out the QB on poor passes all the time

 

a simple example was the flacco to torrey smith TD in pre season against the falcons.

a simple slant who usually just go for short yardage went for a big TD simply because the QB hit the wr in stride and he never lost momentum and then you see what torrey can do with his speed.

 

the moment the WR has to stop or jump or slow down and catch a pass behind him , he will loose momentum and thus it will allow the defense to catch up.

 

im not putting all the blame on flacco though cause like i said the o-line and run game are terrible and not many QBs can work without them.

[TSizzle00]

actually WRs need a perfect pass if you want them to turn a normal play into a big play.

also since the QB gets paid the most the should be the one throwing the perfect plass and not expect the lesser paid WR to bail out the QB on poor passes all the time

 

a simple example was the flacco to torrey smith TD in pre season against the falcons.

a simple slant who usually just go for short yardage went for a big TD simply because the QB hit the wr in stride and he never lost momentum and then you see what torrey can do with his speed.

 

the moment the WR has to stop or jump or slow down and catch a pass behind him , he will loose momentum and thus it will allow the defense to catch up.

 

im not putting all the blame on flacco though cause like i said the o-line and run game are terrible and not many QBs can work without them.

 

At the end of the day the ball hit Torrey in the hands and his body. Marlon Browns TD against the VIkings was not a perfect pass he had to leap up make the grab and get 2 feet in bounds. Had he not attempted it or dropped it everyone would of said Flacco overthrew him.

[The Mom Gene]

Underthrown or not, he adjusted his body and the ball touched his hands and the core of his body. I'm not saying the catch was easy but the fact is the ball was in his hands. Im tired of this notion that the Ravens WRs need a perfect pass to bring in a football when many other teams fight to bring it in no matter what. Hines Ward made a career catching Bens poorly thrown ground balls that were basically uncatchable for a WR taller than him.

I played fast pitch softball for years...  I was always told that "If you got your hands on the ball, it should have been caught".  Now maybe that was an overzealous coach, but he pushed us in just that way...  If these guys can get both hands on the ball, they should be catching it...  (some circumstances might challenge that perception, and under contended circumstances, I might say OK)...  but realistically these dropped passes when no one is touching them or the ball is craziness.

[The Mom Gene]

actually WRs need a perfect pass if you want them to turn a normal play into a big play.

also since the QB gets paid the most the should be the one throwing the perfect plass and not expect the lesser paid WR to bail out the QB on poor passes all the time

 

a simple example was the flacco to torrey smith TD in pre season against the falcons.

a simple slant who usually just go for short yardage went for a big TD simply because the QB hit the wr in stride and he never lost momentum and then you see what torrey can do with his speed.

 

the moment the WR has to stop or jump or slow down and catch a pass behind him , he will loose momentum and thus it will allow the defense to catch up.

 

im not putting all the blame on flacco though cause like i said the o-line and run game are terrible and not many QBs can work without them.

To some extent, I might agree with you..  except that, the Mile High Miracle wasn't even a perfect pass...  It was a little short...  Coby had to slow down to catch it... I just think if our guys were getting enough separation like Jacoby did that night, it shouldn't be a problem...  I think their timing is off....  I have seen Joe blast out a pass, and Torrey has slowed down (not sure if the pass is coming his way, I think) and then has got to speed up again....  There isn't consistent speed in the running of the receivers.  When there is, the odds are much better that they catch it at the end...  Sometimes they just need to go out there and get it...  even if it means "dumping their coverage" and coming back for it.

[Militant X 1]

Every week I see receivers on other teams make plays. Very few passes are truly exactly on target. The receiver has to go get the ball. Our crew just does not have that play making gene or something. Where are the one-handed catches? The tightropes on the sidelines, the leaping/diving over the DB? Our season highlight reel is sadly short, as is our total points.

 

I see it to and it is disheartening to know that our boys don't make plays as much as they could or should.  I'm really curious as to why is that?  Because I believe that our guys are good but it seems that they are not being pushed to reach their full potential as a pro and as a result, they come off as being a mediocre or subpar receiving core.

 

At the end of the day the ball hit Torrey in the hands and his body. Marlon Browns TD against the VIkings was not a perfect pass he had to leap up make the grab and get 2 feet in bounds. Had he not attempted it or dropped it everyone would of said Flacco overthrew him.

 

Torrey should have caught that ball no doubt about it to me!  Marlon went up for that ball in the back of the endzone vs. the Vikings and came down with it!  That was an aggressive catch.  We don't see enough of those I don't think.  Don't forget that diving catch that Pitta went after and game down with in that game as well.

 

I played fast pitch softball for years...  I was always told that "If you got your hands on the ball, it should have been caught".  Now maybe that was an overzealous coach, but he pushed us in just that way...  If these guys can get both hands on the ball, they should be catching it...  (some circumstances might challenge that perception, and under contended circumstances, I might say OK)...  but realistically these dropped passes when no one is touching them or the ball is craziness.

 

I played wide receiver before and that is what is taught!  IF, the ball hits you in your hands it should be caught!  Of course, most cats will not catch every pass (even though Chris Carter caught nearly everything thrown his way back in the day..lol!) thrown their way but their mentality should be to catch them all!  Maybe our guys aren't getting enough Jug-machine time?

 

#Mili

[flynismo]

Why is that? That's the question being presented here. Is it due to their lack of playing time, talent or coaching? Cause Torrey, Jacoby, Marlon and Doss seem talented to me. It makes me wonder.

#Mili

Talent mainly. Those two guys were first rounders for good reason.
Although Torrey is now one of my "pet" players, a lot of guys still bust my balls for my thoughts that Torrey would be a bust, and my comparisons of Torrey to Bernard Berrian.

But point being, there were huge question marks surrounding Torrey. Still are.
Green and Thomas however were viewed as pretty safe bets. In fact, Green was hailed as the best WR prospect since Megatron.

[flynismo]

To some extent, I might agree with you.. except that, the Mile High Miracle wasn't even a perfect pass... It was a little short... Coby had to slow down to catch it... I just think if our guys were getting enough separation like Jacoby did that night, it shouldn't be a problem... I think their timing is off.... I have seen Joe blast out a pass, and Torrey has slowed down (not sure if the pass is coming his way, I think) and then has got to speed up again.... There isn't consistent speed in the running of the receivers. When there is, the odds are much better that they catch it at the end... Sometimes they just need to go out there and get it... even if it means "dumping their coverage" and coming back for it.

Torrey is still pretty terrible at tracking the ball. Not exactly what you want to see in the guy who is your deep threat. Not only does he do the slow down/speed up thing, he also sometimes runs off course while tracking the ball. Usually not enough to blow the play, but it is enough to force him into just getting into the vicinity of the pass rather than setting himself up to attack the ball.

[darklight1216]

I see it to and it is disheartening to know that our boys don't make plays as much as they could or should.  I'm really curious as to why is that?  Because I believe that our guys are good but it seems that they are not being pushed to reach their full potential as a pro and as a result, they come off as being a mediocre or subpar receiving core.

 

 

Torrey should have caught that ball no doubt about it to me!  Marlon went up for that ball in the back of the endzone vs. the Vikings and came down with it!  That was an aggressive catch.  We don't see enough of those I don't think.  Don't forget that diving catch that Pitta went after and game down with in that game as well.

 

 

I played wide receiver before and that is what is taught!  IF, the ball hits you in your hands it should be caught!  Of course, most cats will not catch every pass (even though Chris Carter caught nearly everything thrown his way back in the day..lol!) thrown their way but their mentality should be to catch them all! [b] Maybe our guys aren't getting enough Jug-machine time?[/b]

 

#Mili

It's interesting that you mention that. Bill Belicheck just went on record saying that he thinks the practice limitations of the new CBA have caused more injuries. I wonder if might be responsible for things like that as well (assuming he is correct).

[Militant X 1]

Talent mainly. Those two guys were first rounders for good reason.
Although Torrey is now one of my "pet" players, a lot of guys still bust my balls for my thoughts that Torrey would be a bust, and my comparisons of Torrey to Bernard Berrian.

But point being, there were huge question marks surrounding Torrey. Still are.
Green and Thomas however were viewed as pretty safe bets. In fact, Green was hailed as the best WR prospect since Megatron.

 

I'm aware that draft positioning (round wise) has a lot to do with the quality of a player and his abilities on the field Fly.  But are we going to say that just because a person isn't a first rounder that means that they will "never" be a great receiver or in the first rounders league?  I'm not ready to say that or buy that personally!  I believe with great mentoring and dare I use the word; leadership at their perspective positions, a mediocre player can become a great player!  Therefore, I'm wondering why our guys are so "under-developed" in comparison to other receivers in the league?

 

It's interesting that you mention that. Bill Belicheck just went on record saying that he thinks the practice limitations of the new CBA have caused more injuries. I wonder if might be responsible for things like that as well (assuming he is correct).

 

That's interesting as well!  I am curious because throughout this season and even last season; I have really begun to notice a HUGE gap in my estimation between our receivers and many others in the league who have actually been in the league as long as our guys have (I mentioned them all in a previous post).  My question is; why are those cats developing into top tier receivers in the league and our guys appear to be middle of the road types?  Not horrible but not spectacular either!  Could it be due to their draft positioning?  That alone can't be it cause there have been many 1st round draft busts!  Something is lacking in their development and training is all I can imagine.

 

#Mili

[Ed_Reed20]

I'm aware that draft positioning (round wise) has a lot to do with the quality of a player and his abilities on the field Fly.  But are we going to say that just because a person isn't a first rounder that means that they will "never" be a great receiver or in the first rounders league?  I'm not ready to say that or buy that personally!  I believe with great mentoring and dare I use the word; leadership at their perspective positions, a mediocre player can become a great player!  Therefore, I'm wondering why our guys are so "under-developed" in comparison to other receivers in the league?

 

 

That's interesting as well!  I am curious because throughout this season and even last season; I have really begun to notice a HUGE gap in my estimation between our receivers and many others in the league who have actually been in the league as long as our guys have (I mentioned them all in a previous post).  My question is; why are those cats developing into top tier receivers in the league and our guys appear to be middle of the road types?  Not horrible but not spectacular either!  Could it be due to their draft positioning?  That alone can't be it cause there have been many 1st round draft busts!  Something is lacking in their development and training is all I can imagine.

 

#Mili

 

Which guys are you referring to when you ask this? How many truly top-tier WRs throughout the league weren't drafted in the 1st? Outside of guys like Josh Gordon, Brandon Marshall, Jordy Nelson, Alshon Jeffery and Vincent Jackson, there aren't any. 

 

I don't see what the big mystery is. The guys we have simply aren't talented enough. Torrey's made strides but simply won't ever be the type of WR to take over a game and unless the play design gets better, he'll continue to go through long stretches of anonymity. That Marlon is even contributing this year is a sign he's developed since the team took a flier on him in spring. I don't know what his ceiling is but he's definitely got talent. Jacoby was perennial disappoint in Houston. I love what he's brought to Baltimore but he was never going to develop into more here. Doss has essentially been a bust and the chances of Thompson developing into a good NFL WR were slim considering what he did at Florida. 

 

Beyond simply designing better plays, if the team wants "spectacular" at the WR position, they'll have to invest a top pick in one or move up. Unless a great talent falls to them in the draft next year, I highly doubt they trade up for one. So they'll probably have to continue developing Torrey, Marlon, a rookie WR (I'll be shocked if they don't draft one period) and maybe even Aaron Mellette.

[5aiah]

Which guys are you referring to when you ask this? How many truly top-tier WRs throughout the league weren't drafted in the 1st? Outside of guys like Josh Gordon, Jordy Nelson, Alshon Jeffery and Vincent Jackson, there aren't any. 

 

I don't see what the big mystery is. The guys we have simply aren't talented enough. Torrey's made strides but simply won't ever be the type of WR to take over a game and unless the play design gets better, he'll continue to go through long stretches of anonymity. That Marlon is even contributing this year is a sign he's developed since the team took a flier on him in spring. I don't know what his ceiling is but he's definitely got talent. Jacoby was perennial disappoint in Houston. I love what he's brought to Baltimore but he was never going to develop into more here. Doss has essentially been a bust and the chances of Thompson developing into a good NFL WR were slim considering what he did at Florida. 

 

Beyond simply designing better plays, if the team wants "spectacular" at the WR position, they'll have to invest a top pick in one or move up. Unless a great talent falls to them in the draft next year, I highly doubt they trade up for one. So they'll probably have to continue developing Torrey, Marlon, a rookie WR (I'll be shocked if they don't draft one period) and maybe even Aaron Mellette.

Do you see the qualities that everyone in this group you have named possess? Size and natural ability attacking the football combined with high potential for great route running. These are all guys you need the right coaching and they become stars. So I definitely agree that we need to focus on developing Marlon and Mellette, but im just not sure we have the coaching to do it.

[flynismo]

I'm aware that draft positioning (round wise) has a lot to do with the quality of a player and his abilities on the field Fly. But are we going to say that just because a person isn't a first rounder that means that they will "never" be a great receiver or in the first rounders league? I'm not ready to say that or buy that personally! I believe with great mentoring and dare I use the word; leadership at their perspective positions, a mediocre player can become a great player! Therefore, I'm wondering why our guys are so "under-developed" in comparison to other receivers in the league?


That's interesting as well! I am curious because throughout this season and even last season; I have really begun to notice a HUGE gap in my estimation between our receivers and many others in the league who have actually been in the league as long as our guys have (I mentioned them all in a previous post). My question is; why are those cats developing into top tier receivers in the league and our guys appear to be middle of the road types? Not horrible but not spectacular either! Could it be due to their draft positioning? That alone can't be it cause there have been many 1st round draft busts! Something is lacking in their development and training is all I can imagine.

#Mili

No, I'm simply saying that Green and DT are significantly more talented and polished than Torrey, and draft day reflected that when Torrey fell to the bottom of the 2nd round....and still reflected to this day on the field. It turns out Torrey wasn't a steal....he went where a guy of his talent should have went in the draft.

[hawkprey]

Doss needs to see the field more. He went in for a couple plays when Jacoby got bruised up and was targeted almost immediately, and made a nice catch. Joe clearly likes getting him the ball. I see no reason why he shouldn't be on the field. Give Marlon or Jacoby a break and let Doss do his thing.

[Ed_Reed20]

Do you see the qualities that everyone in this group you have named possess? Size and natural ability attacking the football combined with high potential for great route running. These are all guys you need the right coaching and they become stars. So I definitely agree that we need to focus on developing Marlon and Mellette, but im just not sure we have the coaching to do it.

 

Their talents are obvious. Sure those guys have been coached up, Nelson probably especially. However, they've still got more natural talent than any WR on this team. Gordon and Jeffery are second-year players excelling primarily on raw ability. 

[Gordo52]

Just said it on The Fan and I agree. We simply got out coached.

[wayne]

Torrey is still pretty terrible at tracking the ball. Not exactly what you want to see in the guy who is your deep threat. Not only does he do the slow down/speed up thing, he also sometimes runs off course while tracking the ball. Usually not enough to blow the play, but it is enough to force him into just getting into the vicinity of the pass rather than setting himself up to attack the ball.

Do you ever blame anything on Flacco,lol.

[The Raven]

Do you ever blame anything on Flacco,lol.

 

Do you ever blame something on not Flacco? Look dude, Fly and I have refuted every single claim you've made. Until you come up with new material for your stand up, it's time for you to log out.

[flynismo]

Do you ever blame anything on Flacco,lol.

What? We're not even talking about Flacco. But yes, it is Flaccos fault that Torrey is second in the league in dropped passes, and that Torrey has had trouble tracking the ball since his days as a Terp. Thank you for pointing that out.