Vonta Leach Gets 3 Snaps Vs. Detroit

[Footman DCXLV]

I've posted many times this season with confusion about why the Ravens aren't using the best blocking fullback left in the NFL, while meanwhile struggling to find their run game. I still don't understand that, but I'm now moving on to another thought. Can anybody here talk about what sort of cap affect it will have when Leach is cut this offseason? And, yes, I did say "when" as opposed to "if," because I can't imagine why he wouldn't be. He played just three snaps in the entire Detroit game, while we ran the ball 19 times. Unless there's an injury that hasn't been talked about, it's clear that he just doesn't fit into our plans going forward. He's too good to be wasted on this roster, and I assume his cap hit would make a difference if he's not at all a part of our offensive plan.

 

I really hope I'm wrong. I hope he's used more in traditional running formations this year, I hope he's back next year, and I hope he's used properly that entire season, as well. I just have absolutely no delusions that that's going to happen anymore.

[redrum52]

Not using him cause even when we don't show run we get stuffed. Vonta is basically showing our hand. I wouldn't mind trying him in there for PA with the pass blocking getting better, but it's too dangerous cause this line seems to struggle picking up extra pressure.

[The Raven]

Why aren't we using him? Because Rice has a better chance of running on six man fronts than seven and eight man fronts.

 

I fully expect that he will be gone next season, and I doubt Ozzie gave him a contract that would give him a big hit.

[PuRock]

Well we struggle with running the ball even when it's a surprise move (See the 3rd and 10 run on Sunday).  When we telegraph it, its even worse.  

 

I think Joe has his input in this as well.  He does better out of the shotgun against a dominant front four.   Instead of throwing off his back foot every play. 

 

Then there's Pitta.  With him back, we can go more 2 TE sets.  

 

So really there is a whole slew of things that played into him getting 3 snaps in Detroit and his limited use.  

[rmw10]

Vonta has had a pretty poor year blocking when he has been in there.  Even when he is hot, Rice/Pierce can't pound it through behind him because the OL is poor in run blocking.  There's only so many guys a FB can take on.

 

And has already been stated, when he's in, you can almost key in that it's a run.  Putting him in puts more in the box, which is a recipe for disaster for run games.  Pretty much all teams are spreading it out nowadays.

[PolishRifle]

The Ravens offense clearly changes with the times. Finally. Put the ball in the hands of the QB. Let's go.

[TDubbs]

Most teams don't even carry a FB anymore. Leach is the best one I've seen in a long while, but teams just don't consistently line up in I-Form anymore. I'd use him here or there in the Shotgun to pass block, run up the middle or even catch the occasional ball. Obviously, the coaches don't see the upside. 

 

Note: He's been killing it on Special Teams with his blocking. Go back and look at a bunch of returns he's made an impact on. 

[Gordo52]

I was wrong about wanting to resign him last year. I didn't think it would be like this.

Ugh

[K-Dog]

I was wrong about wanting to resign him last year. I didn't think it would be like this.

Ugh

Don't feel bad. I felt the same way.

I have always been a fan of Leach. Always will be, but his
time is done here.

[Gordo52]

Don't feel bad. I felt the same way.

I have always been a fan of Leach. Always will be, but his
time is done here.

Yeah he'll always be my favorite FB ever and I'll never forget the way he rocked Patrick Willis. I hope he retires with us. It's sad that the position is becoming instinct.

I'm holding out hope Juice is our secret weapon and we've been saving him lol. I wonder how much he's seen the field this year? (On offense). Can't remember one time.

[rmw10]

Yeah he'll always be my favorite FB ever and I'll never forget the way he rocked Patrick Willis. I hope he retires with us. It's sad that the position is becoming instinct.

I'm holding out hope Juice is our secret weapon and we've been saving him lol. I wonder how much he's seen the field this year? (On offense). Can't remember one time.

 

Juice had one snap on offense that I can remember.  It was a pass thrown over his head.  The only real highlight he's had was knocking out Conte on that kickoff return.  Either way, it seems we aren't looking for a true lead blocker anyway.  He'll be a good move guy that will keep the defense guessing.

[Gordo52]

Juice had one snap on offense that I can remember. It was a pass thrown over his head. The only real highlight he's had was knocking out Conte on that kickoff return. Either way, it seems we aren't looking for a true lead blocker anyway. He'll be a good move guy that will keep the defense guessing.

I had really high hopes we would contribute in the passing game. Really hope he develops to his potential.

[rmw10]

I had really high hopes we would contribute in the passing game. Really hope he develops to his potential.

 

I think we'll see a lot more of him next year.  I think their intent was to use him as a lead blocker, and when that didn't work, they went back to Leach.  Now that we've transitioned to more of a spread, 3 WR base, Leach is kind of useless, but he's still ahead of Juice based on being a veteran and former all pro.  It could be a respect thing.  Since neither would be used that much, give the snaps to the guy who has literally thrown his head into things for this team.  Juice will get his chance.

[Bltravens]

Juice had one snap on offense that I can remember.  It was a pass thrown over his head.  The only real highlight he's had was knocking out Conte on that kickoff return.  Either way, it seems we aren't looking for a true lead blocker anyway.  He'll be a good move guy that will keep the defense guessing.

Ya Juice is going to be a really weird flex guy that Joe will use audibles with.  When they stack the box he'll motion Juice into the slot and move into shotgun.  When they're showing a 7 man box we'll use him as a FB.

Im really interested in seeing how they use Juice next year.

[The Raven]

Juice saw two snaps on offense so far, both times in the slot. He could definitely play a move TE role. One thing he could do from the slot is a crack block. For example, we could come put in single back, Pitta on the line and Juice in the slot. Run off tackle, Juice goes from the slot to crack the play side backer. That's a good way we could use him. I think that's part of the future of the fullback position. Athletic 230-40 pound guys that might not be tall enough for TE or fast enough for WR. But, they can line up in the slot and the backfield, and they can be used as a receiver or as a blocker. Lining a receiving type fullback like Juice in the slot and having him crack block a LB could be lethal.

[Free Agent]

The Ravens offense clearly changes with the times. Finally. Put the ball in the hands of the QB. Let's go.

 

That's one of the the things I truly appreciate about Jim Caldwell. Good ol' Cam would still be trying to pound the ball out of the i-formation, same as week 1. Caldwell has been willing to reshape the offense into something that works, as he's shown with the implementation of the pistol and the spread.

[The Raven]

Also, I think we'll see more I formation when: 1: The offensive line proves they can run block effectively again. 2: Juice proves to be a competent receiving option. and 3: We prove we can pass the ball out of the I.

 

Patriots still use the I formation pretty frequently for today's NFL IIRC. 

[jar2260]

We need to better utilize his talents, he is a good blocker, pass protection and moving linebackers out of holes, and he also can catch the ball, I really hope we use him a lot more!

[callahan09]

Has anybody else gotten the impression lately, especially (perhaps only?) in road games, that Joe isn't really audibling much?  Case in point, the play where Joe got hit in the knee against Detroit?  Everybody was saying how he should have audibled out of that play and it was a mistake on his part for not doing so, but does Joe even still have the ability to do that?  I mean, even QBs that get all the credit in the world for controlling their offenses at the line like Peyton and Romo, they are sent to the line with a couple of plays by their play caller, and they can audible into one of a predetermined few.  Sometimes they are sent with no other plays, but the play they are sent with has a built-in option after the snap.  Who's to say that Flacco is even being given anything to work with pre-snap anymore, and it seems like particularly on the road?  I could be way off base here, just sort of a thought bubble that I was hoping someone could explain better to me.

[billick]

Hey, at least we didn't waste money on Boldin.

 

We got a lead blocker, instead.

[Ravensfan23]

in my humble opinion Leach was never meant to be apart of the plans for this team. There are 2 big reasons that got him back to Baltimore. #1, Juice didn't develop as quickly as we'd hoped and #2 Pitta's injury forced us to rely more on the WRs and those guys just didn't come through.

 

I say this because the offense we see now is the offense we intended to have all year. However after Pitta went down and the WRs didn't set up, we we're forced to go back to our bread and butter, the run game. So instead of having mainly 3wr 2Te type offense like we see now, we went back to i-formation football.

 

To be honest I'm surprised that Leach is even still on the team. But then again there is really no need to cut him because he's a team/fan favorite and you don't want to shake things up. But if I were calling the shots I'd really consider cutting him, giving Juice those 3-6 opportunities at FB, also use him in the pass game, promote Frustenberg as the 3rd TE and get the kid some snap. I'd use him much like we use Wagner, but being a TE we could get him out in space for catches.

 

Leach is one of my favorites but I can't say i was too happy to see him back. Because more Leach mention the offense wasn't gonna surround Joe imo. Now seeing him not play as much, I know the direction Caldwell at least wants to go and I'm happy the organization supports it.

[rmw10]

in my humble opinion Leach was never meant to be apart of the plans for this team. There are 2 big reasons that got him back to Baltimore. #1, Juice didn't develop as quickly as we'd hoped and #2 Pitta's injury forced us to rely more on the WRs and those guys just didn't come through.

 

I say this because the offense we see now is the offense we intended to have all year. However after Pitta went down and the WRs didn't set up, we we're forced to go back to our bread and butter, the run game. So instead of having mainly 3wr 2Te type offense like we see now, we went back to i-formation football.

 

To be honest I'm surprised that Leach is even still on the team. But then again there is really no need to cut him because he's a team/fan favorite and you don't want to shake things up. But if I were calling the shots I'd really consider cutting him, giving Juice those 3-6 opportunities at FB, also use him in the pass game, promote Frustenberg as the 3rd TE and get the kid some snap. I'd use him much like we use Wagner, but being a TE we could get him out in space for catches.

 

Leach is one of my favorites but I can't say i was too happy to see him back. Because more Leach mention the offense wasn't gonna surround Joe imo. Now seeing him not play as much, I know the direction Caldwell at least wants to go and I'm happy the organization supports it.

 

I agree with this completely.  It was in the plans to have a spread offense.  When Pitta went down, that idea kind of went down the drain.  Leach was the easiest/best choice for the offense at the time to keep the offense somewhat consistent.  Unfortunately, things didn't work out.  Pitta is back and it's clear to see that spread offense is what we were going for at the time.

 

And just as a note, Furstenburg was IRed the other day.  He's getting hernia surgery.

[Ravensfan23]

I agree with this completely.  It was in the plans to have a spread offense.  When Pitta went down, that idea kind of went down the drain.  Leach was the easiest/best choice for the offense at the time to keep the offense somewhat consistent.  Unfortunately, things didn't work out.  Pitta is back and it's clear to see that spread offense is what we were going for at the time.

 

And just as a note, Furstenburg was IRed the other day.  He's getting hernia surgery.

 

Oh ok didn't see that about Furstenburg, thanks. I guess the good news for him is that IR means the team likes him enough to keep him around.

 

But I'd still think about getting Juice in the offense. He was so slow running routes early this season, but I think ST has really helped him get confidence at the NFL level and I'd like to see how he's developed offensively since.

[rmw10]

Oh ok didn't see that about Furstenburg, thanks. I guess the good news for him is that IR means the team likes him enough to keep him around.

 

But I'd still think about getting Juice in the offense. He was so slow running routes early this season, but I think ST has really helped him get confidence at the NFL level and I'd like to see how he's developed offensively since.

 

Yeah really.  What's the difference between him and Leach at this point?  Every time Leach is on the field, they seem to want to throw a screen out to him.  Why not Juice?

[Ravensfan23]

Yeah really.  What's the difference between him and Leach at this point?  Every time Leach is on the field, they seem to want to throw a screen out to him.  Why not Juice?

 

Yea I'm thinking the same thing. Everything you ask Leach to do at this point is exactly what you brought Juice in for. It can't be the fact that he's a rookie because we have Elam, A. Brown, M.Brown and Wagner seeing time, plus it's not like he'd have a large role. I could understand if you'd want his route running better for the things you want to take advantage of with him, but he still could do what Leach is asked to do just as well if not better at this point. 

 

Maybe it's just one of those things where we just don't even think about Juice on offense right now. Kind of like Doss.

[PoeDinkum]

I would like us to get creative regardless of the personnel, not "cute" mind you with trickery, but tactical. Case in point Jaws just broke down a Panthers play from the weekend on PTI where CAR Left Tackle Trevelle Wharton played all but one snap at LT. When CAR inserted him at Right Guard for that ONE play, it just so happened to be a screen pass to the right and D. Williams with Wharton throwing the lead block, scampered 72 yards to the house. 

 

Regardless of whether Caldwell can or or cannot handle situational football, I am disappointed that we don't consistently maximize personnel groupings for mismatches over the course of a game.

[StaticRaven]

I gotta say, didn't see anyoen else mention it in the thread, but did you guys notice Leach's block on Ray's last run that he kneeled at the end of? 

 

I'm pretty sure that was the play, but we needed the yardage / time off the clock, so I don't think it was a throw-away down, IIRC. 

 

Anyways, if I'm remembering right, he really took the LB that was plugging the hole out of the play, and sprung Rice.

 

Earlier this season, his blocking wasn't very good at all. May have been a problem with the Offensive Line not picking up their assignments correctly, I don't know really. But he looked good springing Rice on that last run.

 

I think there's a good chance we see a lot of him tomorrow (If his blocking is back up to Beastly like it normally is). The Patriots would be the perfect team to bring him back out against if his blocking is back to effective.

[ROH522155]

I gotta say, didn't see anyoen else mention it in the thread, but did you guys notice Leach's block on Ray's last run that he kneeled at the end of? 

 

I'm pretty sure that was the play, but we needed the yardage / time off the clock, so I don't think it was a throw-away down, IIRC. 

 

Anyways, if I'm remembering right, he really took the LB that was plugging the hole out of the play, and sprung Rice.

 

Earlier this season, his blocking wasn't very good at all. May have been a problem with the Offensive Line not picking up their assignments correctly, I don't know really. But he looked good springing Rice on that last run.

 

I think there's a good chance we see a lot of him tomorrow (If his blocking is back up to Beastly like it normally is). The Patriots would be the perfect team to bring him back out against if his blocking is back to effective.

I'm excited too, but it's only Friday champ :) Even worse, it was Thursday when you posted this.  :P

[EricH]

I'm surprised we still have him actually.  I'd rather have another back up for the O-line than one as a FB.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

There will always be a place on any great football team for a fullback who can block as well as catch. It is true that most NFL teams no longer carry a FB because very few teams play smash-mouth football anymore.  Vonta was brought here originally as part of the master design to beat the Pittsburgh Steelers and it worked to perfection. I don't see Troy Polamalo (sp?) blitzing to Joe's blind side when Manimal Leach is in the backfield. He can do something that Ray Rice cannot do, that is block and pancake blitzing linebackers. The hit on Joe's knee took place when Ray Rice stepped aside instead of taking on the block. He should have buried Levy. I wonder what would have happened to Levy if Leach had been in the game at the time. That being said, if Leach could catch as well as block, then we'd have the complete package (like a Lorenzo Neal type fullback or the goal line beast the Tampa Bay Bucs used to have before he hurt his neck). Maybe Vonta can and just doesn't get enough chances like three snaps in the last game.  I expect he will play more on Sunday since the Brady Boys will throw everything they have at Joe but the kitchen sink to see how mobile he is since the knee injury. I don't know whether he will be back next year but he would be worth re-signing just for the two games against our arch nemesis.