Why the hate on Dean Pees?

[T3hRaven]

It's a problem that goes back to peewee and HS ball. Players don't know how to tackle and never learn. It's too late by the time they reach the NFL.

 

However, they absolutely should know how to tackle and it's shameful they don't. My HS coach said that if you can't tackle, you don't play defense, period. It's just pathetic to watch starting NFL backers miss easy tackles.

 

With the limits on practice time, at least in college, coaches aren't able to do the necessary work on fundamentals.  That's why players at all positions are raw.  But one area where it really manifests itself is with poor tackling.  Not saying I disagree with you, they should know how to tackle by this point, but they don't and it's something that teams need to work with guys on.

[jazz1988]

Yes ,you hit the jackpot. We are just not used to his style .

 

Yeah but even when we had defensive coordinators such as Rex and Chuck the Raven defense still had there moments like they did yesterday. One game that really sticks out to me was the Chargers game in 2011 when Chuck was our defensive coordinator  and none of our ravens players on defense could tackle, get pressure on the quarterback , cover, and we look  predictable.

[The Raven]

With the limits on practice time, at least in college, coaches aren't able to do the necessary work on fundamentals.  That's why players at all positions are raw.  But one area where it really manifests itself is with poor tackling.  Not saying I disagree with you, they should know how to tackle by this point, but they don't and it's something that teams need to work with guys on.

 

Agreed.

[Gordo52]

Nah he is more of a thumper chain moving change of pace back like Michael Bush or Brandon Jacobs...he aint that good and he embarrassed our defense yesterday haha

When I think of Toby Gerhart and look at him, I think of RB who is built to run in the snow. Big ol Toby is a beast

[flynismo]

You can agree to disagree, but he was booted from new England for a reason. Of course, he fits right in with the harbaugh league of superfriends. Completely uninspired.

Granted, I'm not saying the players aren't to blame as well for poor execution, because they are, but responsability starts at the top. If the players are blowing it, why is he not going to harbaugh and demanding these players go back and re-enforce their fundamentals? Why aren't they being taught proper tackling technique? He just comes accross like he doesn't care. He doesn't really make in game adjustments. He comes up with unimaginative and simple game plans. There's a reason our defense has dropped off the last two years, and he can't use the injury excuse he got a free pass with last year.

Who says that he does not put an emphasis on fundamentals? We dont know that.
In fact, mili just posted a conversation with Austin talking to Elam about attacking the ball rather than going for the hit all the time...which leads me to my next point, which is it is the position coaches, not the DC, job to make sure these kids are performing on an acceptable level and getting the proper coaching. So if we are going to blame coaches for players blowing tackles, coverages, etc, at least place the blame where it belongs

[The Raven]

Who says that he does not put an emphasis on fundamentals? We dont know that.
In fact, mili just posted a conversation with Austin talking to Elam about attacking the ball rather than going for the hit all the time...which leads me to my next point, which is it is the position coaches, not the DC, job to make sure these kids are performing on an acceptable level and getting the proper coaching. So if we are going to blame coaches for players blowing tackles, coverages, etc, at least place the blame where it belongs

 

Well, I've read a few interviews that say Pees puts a TON of emphasis on fundamentals. He said that he prefers to draft guys with good fundamentals, because they are good starters, but when you add athleticism to good technique, you get a pro bowler. He preaches technique and fundamentals. 

[T3hRaven]

Take it for what you will, but Ditka just said the tackling in the NFL is the worst he's ever seen.  It's not just us that can't tackle.

[monkeycatt]

can we agree that DP>

Greg Mattison

?

[Dr. Kelley]

Teaching NFL players how to tackle is kind of stupid. If you haven't figured out the fundamentals by the time you reach the pro's, you probably never will. Blaming that on Pees is silly.

And I do agree with this to a point. But since they are professional, and they are lacking in fundamentals, what's wrong with practicing the fundamentals so they can get better? Is it so wrong to expect improvement from your team on every level, from coaching to conditioning and coordination down to player's fundamentals and execution?

[The Raven]

And I do agree with this to a point. But since they are professional, and they are lacking in fundamentals, what's wrong with practicing the fundamentals so they can get better? Is it so wrong to expect improvement from your team on every level, from coaching to conditioning and coordination down to player's fundamentals and execution?

 

Not enough time in season to implement a game plan and teach fundamentals. Not even high school teams focus much on fundamentals during the season

[gabefergy]

You can agree to disagree, but he was booted from new England for a reason. Of course, he fits right in with the harbaugh league of superfriends. Completely uninspired.

Granted, I'm not saying the players aren't to blame as well for poor execution, because they are, but responsability starts at the top. If the players are blowing it, why is he not going to harbaugh and demanding these players go back and re-enforce their fundamentals? Why aren't they being taught proper tackling technique? He just comes accross like he doesn't care. He doesn't really make in game adjustments. He comes up with unimaginative and simple game plans. There's a reason our defense has dropped off the last two years, and he can't use the injury excuse he got a free pass with last year.

I don't think I read one thing in this post that is accurate.

[Dr. Kelley]

Who says that he does not put an emphasis on fundamentals? We dont know that.
In fact, mili just posted a conversation with Austin talking to Elam about attacking the ball rather than going for the hit all the time...which leads me to my next point, which is it is the position coaches, not the DC, job to make sure these kids are performing on an acceptable level and getting the proper coaching. So if we are going to blame coaches for players blowing tackles, coverages, etc, at least place the blame where it belongs

And it is a good point about the position coaches you make and I agree. I'm just don't get the feeling of accountability from the top down for poor play in this organization right now, just a lot of excuses and coach speak. Pees can give interviews all day about how he loves fundamentals but its not translating on the field. I know I'm coming off as a hater, I just think our team is capable of so much more and we should demand it as fans and not just accept excuses that just brush off the real problems the team is having. That said, I appreciate your response and I feel there are some great pro-pees arguments in this thread.

[Dr. Kelley]

Who says that he does not put an emphasis on fundamentals? We dont know that.
In fact, mili just posted a conversation with Austin talking to Elam about attacking the ball rather than going for the hit all the time...which leads me to my next point, which is it is the position coaches, not the DC, job to make sure these kids are performing on an acceptable level and getting the proper coaching. So if we are going to blame coaches for players blowing tackles, coverages, etc, at least place the blame where it belongs

And it is a good point about the position coaches you make and I agree. I'm just don't get the feeling of accountability from the top down for poor play in this organization right now, just a lot of excuses and coach speak. Pees can give interviews all day about how he loves fundamentals but its not translating on the field. I know I'm coming off as a hater, I just think our team is capable of so much more and we should demand it as fans and not just accept excuses that just brush off the real problems the team is having. That said, I appreciate your response and I feel there are some great pro-pees arguments in this thread.

[Dr. Kelley]

I don't think I read one thing in this post that is accurate.

Then respond with some substance. I'm getting a lot from this thread from flyinismo and the raven. The thread was about why people are getting on pees, do I put in my two cents. So if you have something to contribute, please do, if not, then why bother?

[TwinRivers]

I agree. Must give the Viking coaches credit. They're smart too and their players made the plays. it was up to Ravens' players to make plays.

[K-Dog]

I hate this mentality (not the poster so please don't take this as an attack :)); whenever someone or people are criticising another person (in a non-abusive manner) - usually in a professional sports environment.

 

No one is saying: "Pees sucks I CAN DO BETTER". People are jut displeased, and often, statements like these are used as red herrings to distract from the actual issues of why people are not happy.

 

People aren't happy because for a large part, it is to do with Pees' planning.

 

Not because we believe we can do better...

Not taken as an attack but thank you for clarifying. :)

The problem with your rebuttal is the fact that in order to point out some ones fault or flaws primarily the ones that are some what intangible, there seems to be a clear implication that "your method is wrong and I have the ability to see and point out why "
To coat tail on much of what has been said already, I highly doubt Pees game plan was "missed tackles" and "poor performance"  these things are very tangible.  You can clearly see that this guy or that guy missed a tackle.
Maybe he was in the wrong spot, maybe he was right where he was suppose to be.

I mean I really dont get the hate either.  But then again I fix cars for a living.  I dont know football near as well as Dean Pees.  I dont know why he is not as aggressive as Rex or Pagano  ( neither of which have fared too well in the recent post season for what its worth ) I am sure he has his reasons.

[The Raven]

Just saying, that screen to Patterson  was third down. Make the tackle, get them to fourth, different ball game. 

[sflegend89]

Because his in game adjustments are non existent. When we game plan well for a team the defense plays well but if the opposing offense throws new wrinkles at us he's rarely able to adjust (First Steelers game, Packers game, Broncos game, ect.)

 

The Gerhart TD and Patterson TD was just poor tackling, that wasn't on Pees

[The Raven]

Because his in game adjustments are non existent. When we game plan well for a team the defense plays well but if the opposing offense throws new wrinkles at us he's rarely able to adjust (First Steelers game, Packers game, Broncos game, ect.)

 

Okay, so you want him to make in game adjustments. If you want that, surely you have an idea of what exactly he should have done, right? What in game adjustments would YOU have made and why would you make them?

[sflegend89]

Okay, so you want him to make in game adjustments. If you want that, surely you have an idea of what exactly he should have done, right? What in game adjustments would YOU have made and why would you make them?

 

Calm down. First off in those games I mentioned we sat back in zone and let the QB's pick their spots (Even the 2nd Cleveland game). Rushing 4 wasn't getting any pressure and it was easy pickings against soft zone coverage when your not generating a pass rush. A proper adjustment would be to start rushing 5 via zone blitzes to force the QB to make a quick throw. When you put pressure on the QB and make them execute down after down and only give them small chunks of yardage on checkdowns the odds the QB makes the wrong hot read or the pass rush generates a big sack/fumble rises substantially. 

 

When you look at the defense's inability to generate turnovers (especially early on) you have to point to the soft zone coverage we found ourselves in game after game. Occasionally we would force a throw away simply from good coverage but rarely did we force quick throws that can end up getting deflected or jumped for int's because Pees was afraid to rush 5+ unless it was 3rd and long. Guys like Daryl Smith and Arthur Brown are great at shooting the gaps on those zone blitzes, we need to see that more on early downs if we're going to start forcing some int's.

[The Raven]

Calm down. First off in those games I mentioned we sat back in zone and let the QB's pick their spots (Even the 2nd Cleveland game). Rushing 4 wasn't getting any pressure and it was easy pickings against soft zone coverage when your not generating a pass rush. A proper adjustment would be to start rushing 5 via zone blitzes to force the QB to make a quick throw. When you put pressure on the QB and make them execute down after down and only give them small chunks of yardage on checkdowns the odds the QB makes the wrong hot read or the pass rush generates a big sack/fumble rises substantially. 

 

When you look at the defense's inability to generate turnovers (especially early on) you have to point to the soft zone coverage we found ourselves in game after game. Occasionally we would force a throw away simply from good coverage but rarely did we force quick throws that can end up getting deflected or jumped for int's because Pees was afraid to rush 5+ unless it was 3rd and long. Guys like Daryl Smith and Arthur Brown are great at shooting the gaps on those zone blitzes, we need to see that more on early downs if we're going to start forcing some int's.

 

You know how everyone here asks "How do guys get so wide open against us?"

 

That's what happens when you do zone blitzes and they get picked up, as they often do. Five rushing and six in coverage makes it even easier for QBs to carve us up. 

 

If I was to make an adjustment, I'd just do away with zone coverage altogether. Five man rush, single high safety, and press man. Typical Pagano defense. 

[gabefergy]

You can agree to disagree, but he was booted from new England for a reason. Of course, he fits right in with the harbaugh league of superfriends. Completely uninspired.

Granted, I'm not saying the players aren't to blame as well for poor execution, because they are, but responsability starts at the top. If the players are blowing it, why is he not going to harbaugh and demanding these players go back and re-enforce their fundamentals? Why aren't they being taught proper tackling technique? He just comes accross like he doesn't care. He doesn't really make in game adjustments. He comes up with unimaginative and simple game plans. There's a reason our defense has dropped off the last two years, and he can't use the injury excuse he got a free pass with last year.

First off, Pees wan't booted from NE. He left at the end of his contract, and their defense hasnt been the same since he left. Harbaugh's league of suprefriends is a joke.

 

He comes across like he doesnt care? Really? Is that what he sounded like in this press conference?

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/Presser_Pees_On_Tough_Week/cf704754-858b-4c91-ac8f-9bb16d07154c

 

It's not Pees job to teach fundamentals. These players are professional athletes, paid millions of dollars to do their job, like tackling. It's Pees job to put them in the best possible position to do that. His game plans are not un-imaginitive or simple. It just shows a lack of understanding to say that. You clearly don't watch the all-22 tape or you would see the complex coverages that have been implemented. He has shown multiple looks and personnel packages, including the "psycho" package with 1 DL and extra DBs. He does make in-game adjustments, remember the Buffalo game when we were gashed in the first half and then completely clamped down? He's made adjustments all season, it's foolish to think otherwise. The reason the defense dropped last year was injuries. That's a fact.

 

This year the defense has been excellent. It's back to being a top 10 unit in pretty much every facet. It was top 6 vs the run, top 10 overall, top 7 scoring, top 3 in 3rd down conversion, and among the best in RZ percentage. There have been moments of frustration when they haven't gotten off the field in the 4th quarter, but the Ravens have had one of the best defenses in the league overall.

 

To be blunt, you just stated a lot of nonsense with absolutely zero evidence to support it.

[Dr. Kelley]

Just saying, that screen to Patterson was third down. Make the tackle, get them to fourth, different ball game.

thank you for saying that! Just make the play. Why is our defense missing that so much? We could be so much better

[The Raven]

This defense does all the little things wrong and that's why they suck. If you can't make a tackle you are a worthless defender.

[Dr. Kelley]

First off, Pees wan't booted from NE. He left at the end of his contract, and their defense hasnt been the same since he left. Harbaugh's league of suprefriends is a joke.

He comes across like he doesnt care? Really? Is that what he sounded like in this press conference?
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/Presser_Pees_On_Tough_Week/cf704754-858b-4c91-ac8f-9bb16d07154c

It's not Pees job to teach fundamentals. These players are professional athletes, paid millions of dollars to do their job, like tackling. It's Pees job to put them in the best possible position to do that. His game plans are not un-imaginitive or simple. It just shows a lack of understanding to say that. You clearly don't watch the all-22 tape or you would see the complex coverages that have been implemented. He has shown multiple looks and personnel packages, including the "psycho" package with 1 DL and extra DBs. He does make in-game adjustments, remember the Buffalo game when we were gashed in the first half and then completely clamped down? He's made adjustments all season, it's foolish to think otherwise. The reason the defense dropped last year was injuries. That's a fact.

This year the defense has been excellent. It's back to being a top 10 unit in pretty much every facet. It was top 6 vs the run, top 10 overall, top 7 scoring, top 3 in 3rd down conversion, and among the best in RZ percentage. There have been moments of frustration when they haven't gotten off the field in the 4th quarter, but the Ravens have had one of the best defenses in the league overall.

To be blunt, you just stated a lot of nonsense with absolutely zero evidence to support it.

Come on, that's like saying our buddy greg wasn't booted.
And yeah, I stated my opinion. Which you did as well. Its foolish to think he hasn't? I guess its foolish to expect results as well, wich we haven't seen. I don't think that a defense that loses games is "excellent". And a good defense gets off the field in the fourth quarter.

And yeah I know its not pees job to teach fundamentals, but I did addres that on a
previous post. Thank you for answering, like I said, I don't want to come accross as a hater, I ride or die with my team, I was putting my two cents in, as no one really put the opposing point up. But I do appreciate the response, as its a lot to look over and think about, so thank you.

[gabefergy]

Come on, that's like saying our buddy greg wasn't booted.
And yeah, I stated my opinion. Which you did as well. Its foolish to think he hasn't? I guess its foolish to expect results as well, wich we haven't seen. I don't think that a defense that loses games is "excellent". And a good defense gets off the field in the fourth quarter.

And yeah I know its not pees job to teach fundamentals, but I did addres that on a
previous post. Thank you for answering, like I said, I don't want to come accross as a hater, I ride or die with my team, I was putting my two cents in, as no one really put the opposing point up. But I do appreciate the response, as its a lot to look over and think about, so thank you.

I would say just look at the results. Maybe excellent is a strong word, but the defense is so much better than last season I consider it excellent in comparison.

 

It is among the league leaders in pretty much every statistical measure. It's not perfect and there have probably been some coaching mistakes along with mistakes by the players, but overall Pees has done a great job. 

 

You said a good defense gets off the field in the 4th quarter. This is true, and there have been games where this hasnt happened. GB and Cleveland come to mind, even though the D dominated GB most of the game. There have also been many games where the D has bailed out the offense and gotten them the ball back. They are still 8th best defense in scoring even after letting up 49 points in week 1. That is saying something. If you take out week 1 ( I know it's not fair to do that but still) they are letting up only 17.6 points per game. I would say that is affording the offense the chance to win every single week.

[admartian]

Not taken as an attack but thank you for clarifying. :)

The problem with your rebuttal is the fact that in order to point out some ones fault or flaws primarily the ones that are some what intangible, there seems to be a clear implication that "your method is wrong and I have the ability to see and point out why "
To coat tail on much of what has been said already, I highly doubt Pees game plan was "missed tackles" and "poor performance"  these things are very tangible.  You can clearly see that this guy or that guy missed a tackle.
Maybe he was in the wrong spot, maybe he was right where he was suppose to be.

I mean I really dont get the hate either.  But then again I fix cars for a living.  I dont know football near as well as Dean Pees.  I dont know why he is not as aggressive as Rex or Pagano  ( neither of which have fared too well in the recent post season for what its worth ) I am sure he has his reasons.

Then that rules out 99% of people ever discussing anything online. :P

 

I think it's more akin to, "I think there are methods which are working in the league, enacted by those in your position, yet why aren't you doing something similar?" - basically, there are DCs/OCs/HCs in the league with similar players, why not have  similar (note, not the same) approach, that is proven to work, or have success a greater amount of time?

 

Again, I doubt anyone is saying they can do better. :) If so then lol.

 

I think the message is more, there are those that do better around the league, why can't you (with the talent we have)? It may be right, it may be wrong, but it's not from some sort of puffing one's chest. :)

[K-Dog]

Then that rules out 99% of people ever discussing anything online. :P

:)

One could only hope...

[ravensdfan]

Let me begin by saying that I absolutely do not like Pees style. We are simply not very aggressive on defense the majority of the time.

 

I know some of it does fall to execution by the players however, in the last 5 weeks this defense has held their opponents to 32 points in the first 3 quarters and allowed them to score 54 in the 4th quarter.

 

We go to soft zones and prevent way too early. We stop rushing 4 way too early (and even in situational football, we still rush only 3). It is a play calling issue as well IMO.

[allblackraven]

First off, Pees wan't booted from NE. He left at the end of his contract, and their defense hasnt been the same since he left. Harbaugh's league of suprefriends is a joke.

 

He comes across like he doesnt care? Really? Is that what he sounded like in this press conference?

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/Presser_Pees_On_Tough_Week/cf704754-858b-4c91-ac8f-9bb16d07154c

 

It's not Pees job to teach fundamentals. These players are professional athletes, paid millions of dollars to do their job, like tackling. It's Pees job to put them in the best possible position to do that. His game plans are not un-imaginitive or simple. It just shows a lack of understanding to say that. You clearly don't watch the all-22 tape or you would see the complex coverages that have been implemented. He has shown multiple looks and personnel packages, including the "psycho" package with 1 DL and extra DBs. He does make in-game adjustments, remember the Buffalo game when we were gashed in the first half and then completely clamped down? He's made adjustments all season, it's foolish to think otherwise. The reason the defense dropped last year was injuries. That's a fact.

 

This year the defense has been excellent. It's back to being a top 10 unit in pretty much every facet. It was top 6 vs the run, top 10 overall, top 7 scoring, top 3 in 3rd down conversion, and among the best in RZ percentage. There have been moments of frustration when they haven't gotten off the field in the 4th quarter, but the Ravens have had one of the best defenses in the league overall.

 

To be blunt, you just stated a lot of nonsense with absolutely zero evidence to support it.

I agree on all counts with your assessment of Pees and I contribute big plays that had been given to players' execution entirely. Vikings game, to be fair, is a special case - it's near impossible to get into position to tackle on a field like that - but there have been lapses in previous games, too.

 

What nobody mentioned yet in this thread is the fact that Ray and Ed are not there. This defense misses their reads and quick adjustments big time and although overall improvement to last season is really noticeable, there are no players at the moment who come close to what Ray and Ed were able to see in a split second. I think execution would be way better with their help.