Joe Flacco is the man

[3-4ravdef509]

Joe Flacco's performance in 2013 is really exposing those who really know football and those who really don't. Surprisingly there are a lot of so called experts and talking heads who really don't know football. People looking for stats to justify Flacco playing up to his contract is missing the bigger picture imo. Yes the numbers are great and they usually lead to big success for Flacco and the offense as a whole. However the bigger reason why Flacco is earning his money is because of his leadership and his ability to stand taall among all the poor play surrounding him. Joe is doing a really great job of leading this offense, even at it's worse. With all the drops, missed opportunities and lost stats Flacco has never pointed the finger and continues to instill plenty of confident in his players.

We talk about Elite QBs getting the best out of players, well Doss and Brown are playing really well, Jacoby looks much better playing with Flacco then Schuab, Dallas Clark is quitely starting to pick up his play. None of these guys are houshold names expect Jacoby, but Flacco is putting these guys in position to make plays. It is crazy how well Flacco is playing despite the pieces around him not playing so well.

Watching 1 Winning Drive you see Flacco teaching his young WRs including Torrey. Joe is putting all the work in required to be great and his performing well. The numbers don't show just how well Flacco is performing and if you don't believe he's playing up to his contract you are mistaken imo.

This times a million

[Florida Ravens Fan]

I "see" and say the same thing!

imagine that! someone else that "sees" what I see as well. interesting!

I've said this over and over. imo, Flacco holds the ball too long at times and his pocket awareness gets under my skin at times. I know he is trying to stand tall in there and make something happen but c'mon! at some point, my man Joe needs to scramble out of there and make something happen with his legs to extend the play if need be.

#Mili

Flaccos pocket presence has really improved this year, and he has extended plays which is difficult with this oline.
him holding the ball too long is because the receivers have had trouble separating. You want him to get rid of the ball fast, but extend play lol??

[Speed Kills]

If I throw you the ball 10 times and you drop it 9 times should I be seen as not living up to expectations?

It is the National Football League, that is unrealistic even throwing to all rookies

[Speed Kills]

But atleast Flacco has a ring to go with that contract.

 

What Ryans excuse, He is stacked at WR also.

 

Im not saying Flacco is playing up to his contract  but there are good reasons why he isnt.

True on the Ryan statement. Joe definitely has way more of an excuse than him since he has had all the weapons up til this year with Roddy hurt and Julio done. Now he is 1-4 and doesn't look nearly as good and still has no ring.

[Militant X 1]

I "see" and say the same thing!

 

imagine that!  someone else that "sees" what I see as well.  interesting! 

 

I've said this over and over.  imo, Flacco holds the ball too long at times and his pocket awareness gets under my skin at times.  I know he is trying to stand tall in there and make something happen but c'mon!  at some point, my man Joe needs to scramble out of there and make something happen with his legs to extend the play if need be.

 

#Mili

 

Flaccos pocket presence has really improved this year, and he has extended plays which is difficult with this oline.
him holding the ball too long is because the receivers have had trouble separating. You want him to get rid of the ball fast, but extend play lol??

I noticed that you conveniently left out the other 2 posters posts that I quoted that said the same thing that I did about Flacco holding the ball too long to just quote me.  like you, I believe that there are some cats in here that will always say that Flacco holds the ball too long because WRs aren't getting any separation.  heard it for years!  and I believe that that is true to an extend.  maybe it's due to certain routes taking too long to develop?  but the short ones too? c'mon!  I doubt it!  when I go back and look at the games....someone seems to be open!  now, it is my personal preference that the ball needs to be released quickly and that will never change!  Joe tries to stand tall in the pocket even while it is collapsing to make a play.  Cool!  I like that about Joe but imo, he still needs to be cognizant of the fact that the ball needs to leave his hands more quickly or run for the necessary yards.

 

#Mili

[Speed Kills]

Joe Flacco's performance in 2013 is really exposing those who really know football and those who really don't. Surprisingly there are a lot of so called experts and talking heads who really don't know football. People looking for stats to justify Flacco playing up to his contract is missing the bigger picture imo. Yes the numbers are great and they usually lead to big success for Flacco and the offense as a whole. However the bigger reason why Flacco is earning his money is because of his leadership and his ability to stand taall among all the poor play surrounding him. Joe is doing a really great job of leading this offense, even at it's worse. With all the drops, missed opportunities and lost stats Flacco has never pointed the finger and continues to instill plenty of confident in his players.

We talk about Elite QBs getting the best out of players, well Doss and Brown are playing really well, Jacoby looks much better playing with Flacco then Schuab, Dallas Clark is quitely starting to pick up his play. None of these guys are houshold names expect Jacoby, but Flacco is putting these guys in position to make plays. It is crazy how well Flacco is playing despite the pieces around him not playing so well.

 

The only stat that matters is wins. He is 3-3 this year and not because of him, it is because our defense keeps us in the game.

 

If his leadership was great he would light a fire under his offensive unit and maybe some urgency would have been instilled the first 3 quarters of the Green Bay game. It was not. I agree it is admirable of him not pointing the finger, but at some point he needs to convey to his teammates there play is unacceptable. Tom Brady does this and it works pretty well for him.

 

I don't think he is doing bad, but for 20 million dollars I guess I just expect more.

 

No way, I would not be upset in the least regarding Flacco. Put Brees on this team. What exactly would he do that Flacco isn't? Would the receivers stop dropping the ball just because the name on the jersey says Brees instead of Flacco? Would our OL run and pass block with a different qb under center? Flacco is doing everything he possibly can with what he has.
The Saints are 5-1? Like I said, I follow nearly all their games, and Brees poor performance against NE is a big reason they lost last week. And the Saints beat TB, 16-14, DESPITE drew Brees having another terrible game. In reality, he should have cost the Saints two games rather than one, but his defense bailed him out against Tampa.
Joe on the other hand cost us the game against BUF. That's it. We likely would have beat Denver if we didn't drop eight passes, including two TDs.

 

Better believe it. Brees puts the ball where he wants it. Yes our receivers drop the ball, but lots of times the balls could be just a bit better placed. Balls should still be caught no doubt, but ball placement could be slightly better and Brees makes the receivers jobs easy. Probably part of the reason why Brees has a better completion percentage than Flacco does. Look I love Flacco, I just want to see him EARN his 20 mil. Right now I feel like hes worth about 75% of that. Still plenty of time this season for him to start showing me he can earn it all and we all know Joe Cool gets real hot come late November onward. I just hope our boys are still in the race when the jet packs turn on.

[hawkprey]

The only stat that matters is wins. He is 3-3 this year and not because of him, it is because our defense keeps us in the game.

 

If his leadership was great he would light a fire under his offensive unit and maybe some urgency would have been instilled the first 3 quarters of the Green Bay game. It was not. I agree it is admirable of him not pointing the finger, but at some point he needs to convey to his teammates there play is unacceptable. Tom Brady does this and it works pretty well for him.

 

I don't think he is doing bad, but for 20 million dollars I guess I just expect more.

 

 

Better believe it. Brees puts the ball where he wants it. Yes our receivers drop the ball, but lots of times the balls could be just a bit better placed. Balls should still be caught no doubt, but ball placement could be slightly better and Brees makes the receivers jobs easy. Probably part of the reason why Brees has a better completion percentage than Flacco does. Look I love Flacco, I just want to see him EARN his 20 mil. Right now I feel like hes worth about 75% of that. Still plenty of time this season for him to start showing me he can earn it all and we all know Joe Cool gets real hot come late November onward. I just hope our boys are still in the race when the jet packs turn on.

When Brees got his money, the Saints went 7-9 the following year. Is that "earning his 20 mil"?

[flynismo]

Better believe it. Brees puts the ball where he wants it. Yes our receivers drop the ball, but lots of times the balls could be just a bit better placed. Balls should still be caught no doubt, but ball placement could be slightly better and Brees makes the receivers jobs easy. Probably part of the reason why Brees has a better completion percentage than Flacco does. Look I love Flacco, I just want to see him EARN his 20 mil. Right now I feel like hes worth about 75% of that. Still plenty of time this season for him to start showing me he can earn it all and we all know Joe Cool gets real hot come late November onward. I just hope our boys are still in the race when the jet packs turn on.

 

 

It's fine, we can disagree on that. I realize that you're not another one of these mindless Flacco bashers, we just value what he is contributing differently. I think we both know that if Flacco gets the same help that Brees gets from his teammates, we would not be having this discussion to begin with!

 

But to say that the drops we have seen could have been placed better is one heck of a stretch. Most of those drops have been beautiful throws by Flacco -- which is why they are considered drops in the first place; it isnt considered a drop if it is not a catchable ball ...and to take objectivity out of it, a drop is a drop is a drop. This is the NFL. If Jimmy Graham can climb the ladder and catch balls over the backs of defenders, helping Brees pad his stats, then Dickson and Clark can and should catch passes that bounce off their chests and hands with no defenders around them

[busterblue52]

When Brees got his money, the Saints went 7-9 the following year. Is that "earning his 20 mil"?

 

I honestly would love to see how the top QBs in the league would do with what Joe has had. Our offensive line has been putrid along with our RBs. When the O-line plays like trash its up to the RBs to make a play every once in awhile and help there QB out. Joe hikes the ball and the entire defense knows its a pass our play action does nothing and You know what I'm done im going to rant for hours thinking of the way our O-line has performed. This is definitely not a QB problem though.

[PolishRifle]

I honestly would love to see how the top QBs in the league would do with what Joe has had. Our offensive line has been putrid along with our RBs. When the O-line plays like trash its up to the RBs to make a play every once in awhile and help there QB out. Joe hikes the ball and the entire defense knows its a pass our play action does nothing and You know what I'm done im going to rant for hours thinking of the way our O-line has performed. This is definitely not a QB problem though.

 

Brady is in a similar situation. His Oline is stout and his run game is pretty good because of it, but than again he doesn't have a receiver of Torrey's caliber to depend on.

 

Brady:

 

1480yrds 56,9% 8TDs 4INT 3FUM

 

Flacco:

 

1702yrds 57,9% 7TDs 8INT 4FUM

 

It's what you would expect. With the better playmakers (well, playmaker, it's just Torrey) Joe has thrown for more yards and has completed more passes, but since Brady has more time in the pocket (standing like statue) he made fewer mistakes.

To be honest, right now, Tom and Joe are kinda equals no matter how much analysts try to convince you otherwise. Toms last season stats do blow Joe's away, but Tom had Welker, Gronk and Hernandez to throw the ball to. A top 5 and top 10 TE on the same roster with a stud slot receiver? Yeah, Brady doesn't do it on his own and this season proves it.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

We've now got the WRs (healthy) and Clark seems to be coming around.

Caldwell isn't sending the receivers downfield 20 yards on almost every pass play like Cam.

So, all Joe needs is average pass protection, an average run game and for the offense to stop putting him in 3rd and ridiculous constantly, and he can be a top 6 QB.

[CalvinSmoke]

Brady is in a similar situation. His Oline is stout and his run game is pretty good because of it, but than again he doesn't have a receiver of Torrey's caliber to depend on.

 

Brady:

 

1480yrds 56,9% 8TDs 4INT 3FUM

 

Flacco:

 

1702yrds 57,9% 7TDs 8INT 4FUM

 

It's what you would expect. With the better playmakers (well, playmaker, it's just Torrey) Joe has thrown for more yards and has completed more passes, but since Brady has more time in the pocket (standing like statue) he made fewer mistakes.

To be honest, right now, Tom and Joe are kinda equals no matter how much analysts try to convince you otherwise. Toms last season stats do blow Joe's away, but Tom had Welker, Gronk and Hernandez to throw the ball to. A top 5 and top 10 TE on the same roster with a stud slot receiver? Yeah, Brady doesn't do it on his own and this season proves it.

Pretty solid argument here. Flacco and Roethlisberger are rather comparable as well with their situation and QB stats.

 

Key = Joe/ Ben

QBR = 76.2 / 88.8

Yards = 1,702 / 1,495

TDs = 7 / 6

INTs = 8/ 5 

[arnie_uk]

Pretty solid argument here. Flacco and Roethlisberger are rather comparable as well with their situation and QB stats.
 
Key = Joe/ Ben
QBR = 76.2 / 88.8
Yards = 1,702 / 1,495
TDs = 7 / 6
INTs = 8/ 5 

give me their completion percentages so I can justify the plus 10 qb rating

[PolishRifle]

give me their completion percentages so I can justify the plus 10 qb rating

 

Ben's 65,6 compared to Joe's 57.9.

[arnie_uk]

Ben's 65,6 compared to Joe's 57.9. Steelers receivers don't drop passes.

compeltion percentage is a heavy part of qb rating

[PolishRifle]

compeltion percentage is a heavy part of qb rating

 

I guess so. It's just odd how high the comp. perc. is, yet the Steelers aren't any better at converting 3rd downs (about even) or scoring TDs and actually worse in moving the ball upfield.

[CalvinSmoke]

I guess so. It's just odd how high the comp. perc. is, yet the Steelers aren't any better at converting 3rd downs (about even) or scoring TDs and actually worse in moving the ball upfield.

very true. Ben is one game short because of the bye I believe.

 

Key = Joe / Ben

Avg/A = 7.24 / 7.79

Sacked = 19 / 18

Sacked/G = 3.16 / 3.6

Yards/G = 284 / 299

[PolishRifle]

very true. Ben is one game short because of the bye I believe.

 

Key = Joe / Ben

Avg/A = 7.24 / 7.79

Sacked = 19 / 18

Sacked/G = 3.16 / 3.6

Yards/G = 284 / 299

 

Sure, but that only explains his lower pass yards numbers. It wouldn't impact his 3rd down conversion rate, something he is supposed to be good at. The same thing goes for gamewinning drives, where Joe has already put together 1 against Miami, while Ben still didn't (again, his specialty according to everyone). Then again his teams win/loss record probably told you that already. ;)

[CalvinSmoke]

Sure, but that only explains his lower pass yards numbers. It wouldn't impact his 3rd down conversion rate, something he is supposed to be good at. The same thing goes for gamewinning drives, where Joe has already put together 1 against Miami, while Ben still didn't (again, his specialty according to everyone). Then again his teams win/loss record probably told you that already. ;)

Joe Flacco is as clutch as it gets anyway lol

[Brandon22]

Honestly this is the main reason I defend Joe so much.. Love his toughness and his aggression.. He doesn't have to be flashy and loud to show passion. You can just see it in him. He's got that fire and competitiveness

if we can give Joe Flacco Better protection we could have a more up tempo offense

[Speed Kills]

It's fine, we can disagree on that. I realize that you're not another one of these mindless Flacco bashers, we just value what he is contributing differently. I think we both know that if Flacco gets the same help that Brees gets from his teammates, we would not be having this discussion to begin with!

 

But to say that the drops we have seen could have been placed better is one heck of a stretch. Most of those drops have been beautiful throws by Flacco -- which is why they are considered drops in the first place; it isnt considered a drop if it is not a catchable ball ...and to take objectivity out of it, a drop is a drop is a drop. This is the NFL. If Jimmy Graham can climb the ladder and catch balls over the backs of defenders, helping Brees pad his stats, then Dickson and Clark can and should catch passes that bounce off their chests and hands with no defenders around them

I guess my question to you is this. I definitely appreciate your arguments and points you are making so let me pose this question to you. How do you judge how much better Brees makes his targets vs. how much better his targets make Brees? I tried to pull out draft status, but you debunked that. Fine I get it, people are overdrafted and undervalued all the time. But if you don't use that then what do you use? The only other thing I can think of is if a player gets traded as Deion Branch did to the Seahawks and was not nearly the player he was with Tom Brady, showing that Brady made him better.

 

As for Flacco doing as well as Brees with Brees' targets, I don't think he would put up as great of stats as Brees does because he tends to play down to his competition and rarely hangs a huge game on a bad opponent, but I definitely think his stats would be far superior to what they are now and Flacco would still win as much which is all that matters. I just don't think he would do it as pretty as guys as Brees and Manning usually do in September October. Maybe Oz will get him a few studs in the draft this year and things will improve greatly next year. I was one of the guys how was pushing hard for Keenan Allen in the first round around draft time. Wish that would have come to fruition, he looks great in San Diego :(

[ravensdfan]

Well, he is being asked to throw more since the run offense can't move the chains to save their lives. We need to go back to passing the ball more. I don't care about what happened in the Bills game, because at this point it's our best chance to score.

 

Score? Let's just manage some consistent first downs. Then we can work on scoring lol

 

I agree with you. We need to come out passing the ball. It would only take a few nice completed passes to open up the run game.

[flynismo]

I guess my question to you is this. I definitely appreciate your arguments and points you are making so let me pose this question to you. How do you judge how much better Brees makes his targets vs. how much better his targets make Brees? I tried to pull out draft status, but you debunked that. Fine I get it, people are overdrafted and undervalued all the time. But if you don't use that then what do you use? The only other thing I can think of is if a player gets traded as Deion Branch did to the Seahawks and was not nearly the player he was with Tom Brady, showing that Brady made him better.

 

As for Flacco doing as well as Brees with Brees' targets, I don't think he would put up as great of stats as Brees does because he tends to play down to his competition and rarely hangs a huge game on a bad opponent, but I definitely think his stats would be far superior to what they are now and Flacco would still win as much which is all that matters. I just don't think he would do it as pretty as guys as Brees and Manning usually do in September October. Maybe Oz will get him a few studs in the draft this year and things will improve greatly next year. I was one of the guys how was pushing hard for Keenan Allen in the first round around draft time. Wish that would have come to fruition, he looks great in San Diego :(

 

I really do not believe that there is a way to do that by citing things such as statistics, status of players, etc. Let me use Brady as a reference.

 

Before Randy Moss arrived in New England, Brady was putting up similar stats to what Flacco has been putting up throughout his career. Then, the year Moss arrives, Brady explodes and sets the single season TD record, and Moss set the TD record for WR. So, did Moss help make Brady better, or did Brady make Moss better? The answer is neither. It was simply an example of how a QB was held back from fulfilling his potential due to the people around him. Of course, there are other factors as well, such as scheme changes that took place, and so on, but ultimately, the result was that a talented QB was given the opportunity to play at his highest level, and ever since then, we have seen what Brady can really do given the right system and supporting cast.

 

And frankly, the idea of a QB making the players around them better is a bit more hype than reality. Let me cite Brees for this point. When he was in SD, he had a great OL, arguably the most well rounded RB to ever play the game, and an OL to die for. Yet he also put up similar (in fact, WORSE) stats than what Flacco has put up thus far. Then he goes to NO, and we know the rest. So why did he explode in NO? A combination of opportunity and a mastermind for an OC. Again, I follow the Saints religously, and let me tell you without any doubt that NO TEAM IN THE NFL has the ability to consistently find ways to get guys wide open in the passing game (despite the fact defenses know that they are going to throw the ball a ton!). Before I sound like I am belittling Brady or Brees' accomplishments, let me make it clear that those two guys are great players. Brees, especially -- he is better than Brady ever was, and people would accept that as common knowledge if Brees had the rings to show for it.

 

But my point to all this is a very simple one. It takes two to dance. Brees has unnatural ball location and touch. But he has a few major holes in his game, and those holes reveal itself when his OL does not protect him (as we saw in the TB game, and NE game). Flacco has a few major holes in his game, and like Brees, it rears it's head when protection breaks down too fast.

 

So it is best to look at it like this:

Instead of thinking that a QB makes those around him better, think of it rather as what that QB can do at his best when the people around him are capable of playing on his level. That is a subtle, but very important difference, because in the long run, it is give and take -- there will be specific plays where it takes a great QB to make a given play succeed (I have seen MANY throws by Brees where he put the ball where only his receiver had a chance to make the play, and a lesser QB would have failed). But that does not mean that the QB elevated the level of play of his reciever on that play, it just means that the QB made it possible for his WR to make a play.

Likewise, I have seen guys like Graham and Colston make a lot of catches on passes that were off target, or could have been thrown better.

It's all about give and take....not so much as one guy making the other guy do his job better.

 

 

________________________________________________________________________________

 

Regarding my comment about Flacco putting up huge stats in NO, I still stand by that. We have seen what Flacco is capable of when he has a good OL and decent recievers. Now imagine him having an OL that consistently gives him 4+ seconds, and a scheme that regularly has one guy wide open, and on top of that, guys like Colston and Graham who can physically overmatch defenders consistently on deep throws or throws that go into tight windows (which also happen to be Flacco's two greatest strengths).

It is a defense's nightmare to think of guys like Brees or Flacco playing in a system like that.

[arnie_uk]

I guess my question to you is this. I definitely appreciate your arguments and points you are making so let me pose this question to you. How do you judge how much better Brees makes his targets vs. how much better his targets make Brees? I tried to pull out draft status, but you debunked that. Fine I get it, people are overdrafted and undervalued all the time. But if you don't use that then what do you use? The only other thing I can think of is if a player gets traded as Deion Branch did to the Seahawks and was not nearly the player he was with Tom Brady, showing that Brady made him better.

As for Flacco doing as well as Brees with Brees' targets, I don't think he would put up as great of stats as Brees does because he tends to play down to his competition and rarely hangs a huge game on a bad opponent, but I definitely think his stats would be far superior to what they are now and Flacco would still win as much which is all that matters. I just don't think he would do it as pretty as guys as Brees and Manning usually do in September October. Maybe Oz will get him a few studs in the draft this year and things will improve greatly next year. I was one of the guys how was pushing hard for Keenan Allen in the first round around draft time. Wish that would have come to fruition, he looks great in San Diego :(

qbs rely on wideouts moreso than the other way around.

Example 1.

Has Tom Brady regressed since last year? He'll no. The difference, no gronk, welker or Hernandez.

Example 2

Larry Fitzgerald has been renowned as one of the best wideouts if this era. Apart from a brief spell with warner who has been passing to him? No one.

Brady needs wideouts, fitz doesn't need qbs.

Wideouts rely on a system to get them open, see boldin in az vs boldin in Balt. Qbs rely on oline and wideout play, heck even the system as well

[TSizzle00]

It is the National Football League, that is unrealistic even throwing to all rookies

 

Broncos game might as well have been that. So many key catches dropped, catches that would have given Flacco the stats his detractors want him to have to justify the contract.

[Speed Kills]

So it is best to look at it like this:

Instead of thinking that a QB makes those around him better, think of it rather as what that QB can do at his best when the people around him are capable of playing on his level. That is a subtle, but very important difference, because in the long run, it is give and take -- there will be specific plays where it takes a great QB to make a given play succeed (I have seen MANY throws by Brees where he put the ball where only his receiver had a chance to make the play, and a lesser QB would have failed). But that does not mean that the QB elevated the level of play of his reciever on that play, it just means that the QB made it possible for his WR to make a play.

Likewise, I have seen guys like Graham and Colston make a lot of catches on passes that were off target, or could have been thrown better.

It's all about give and take....not so much as one guy making the other guy do his job better.

 

Ok I like this, fair point. Well played, well played. Plenty of season left for our guys to elevate their level of play and hopefully this allows Joe to shine and us more importantly to win.

[reediddy]

When Brees got his money, the Saints went 7-9 the following year. Is that "earning his 20 mil"?

 

Did you know that off the top of your head or do you have a source? I need some more ammo like that to fend off the Flacco haters

[flynismo]

Ok I like this, fair point. Well played, well played. Plenty of season left for our guys to elevate their level of play and hopefully this allows Joe to shine and us more importantly to win.

 

Yep, and that is what we are all up in arms about....Joe doesn't stand a chance with this OL and running game, and it is really impressive that he is even doing what he is now. Leading the league in passing yards this week, and they took his only established threat away??

[flynismo]

Did you know that off the top of your head or do you have a source? I need some more ammo like that to fend off the Flacco haters

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=drew+brees+contract

[Tank 92]

Yep, and that is what we are all up in arms about....Joe doesn't stand a chance with this OL and running game, and it is really impressive that he is even doing what he is now. Leading the league in passing yards this week, and they took his only established threat away??

 

 

I don't know how some can't see this. Dude has been running for his life and getting smashed every other play. He just gets up, dusts himself off and goes at it again, doesn't faze him a bit. It's a shame the O line doesn't show the same resolve. Maybe it's coming. I hope soon..........