Quick thought/theory about our current offensive situation

[Inqui]

First, I don't want to deny that our running game has seen better days (ok, MUCH better days). However, I've been thinking about the state we're in and this got me thinking about how things were this time last year.

 

By this time we'd flogged the Bengals by getting our hurry-up offence working, we'd been pipped by the Eagles after not using Ray Rice enough and we'd edged out the Patriots on the back of a career game by Torrey Smith. Three weeks in, and we'd been living and dying off our passing game.

 

Many people wanted Cam Cameron's head (some more literally than others no doubt), or at least wanted him to start running the ball more. But one interesting theory I saw was that the coaches knew we were a late-season team and had noticed Ray Rice had been wearing down towards the end of the season.

 

The theory was that we were simply getting our passing game clicking for the first few weeks, while it was still warm (because you Americans are weird with your seasons getting cold in December :p ). As a result, come December, Ray and Bernard would be fresher and in a better position to at least become more prominent in games while the passing game already had a bit of momentum under its belt.

 

Anyway, I can't help but wonder if the coaches are perhaps trying something similar here: intentionally holding our running game back a little bit until it gets colder and it becomes more a question of integrating the RBs into what's already working than trying to fine-tune everything together. It also makes sense if you think about it in terms of getting our receivers some air time with Joe while it's warm.

 

That said, I'm probably being some crazy-ass homer who thinks our coaches have a masterful level of control over every little thing. Thoughts?

[CalvinSmoke]

I hear you, but the Ravens have been pounding it. And our backs have been getting their touches. It's been a balanced offense not including the Denver game. 

[arnie_uk]

Your totally off base. How are they holdong the running game back when they are probably top 5 in rushing attempts through 3 games?

They are running it too much when its not working. They need to pass more early and on the early downs then run it when teams are more worried about stopping flacco

[PolishRifle]

Your totally off base. How are they holdong the running game back when they are probably top 5 in rushing attempts through 3 games?

They are running it too much when its not working. They need to pass more early and on the early downs then run it when teams are more worried about stopping flacco

 

I think we're top 10 in rushing attempts, which is still crazy considering, that Joe had a bunch of passing attempts in Denver trying to catch up with Peyton and Ray Rice was out for one game.

The gameplan has been too simple and conservative. Everyone knows by now, that we run it on 1st and 2nd downs and then throw it on 3rd, which makes our 3rd down conversion rate (8th in the league), which comes solely from passing the ball, all the more astonishing.

We definetly need to mix it up a little and probably lean more on the passing game to open things up for the RBs.

[Hjulmann]

Only thing that really concerns me is, like PolishRifle said, how we are too conservative and rarely go deep on the pass. Also, we're becoming super predictable, with the run on 1st, run on 2nd and pass on 3rd plays. I'm pretty tired of the short pass to our receivers getting us like 7 yards or the dumps to our running backs as a last resort getting us 3.

[Inqui]

I think we're top 10 in rushing attempts, which is still crazy considering, that Joe had a bunch of passing attempts in Denver trying to catch up with Peyton and Ray Rice was out for one game.

The gameplan has been too simple and conservative. Everyone knows by now, that we run it on 1st and 2nd downs and then throw it on 3rd, which makes our 3rd down conversion rate (8th in the league), which comes solely from passing the ball, all the more astonishing.

We definetly need to mix it up a little and probably lean more on the passing game to open things up for the RBs.

 

 

I hear you, but the Ravens have been pounding it. And our backs have been getting their touches. It's been a balanced offense not including the Denver game. 

 

 

Your totally off base. How are they holdong the running game back when they are probably top 5 in rushing attempts through 3 games?

They are running it too much when its not working. They need to pass more early and on the early downs then run it when teams are more worried about stopping flacco

 

Truth be told, I thought we were alright during the Houston game after the first couple of drives. Always happy to be proven wrong in the name of good discussion though, and I haven't re-watched the game or anything.

 

Fair play to all of you though. I was looking at Joe Stafford Flacco's amount of passing attempts, which have been quite high so far this year, and our RB production and wondering if there was something seasonal going on (kinda like last year, although that may have just been the luck of the draw Cam Cameron's play selections). I appreciate the responses though, so +1 for your thoughts. I didn't realise we were actually top 10 in attempts - like you say that tells a really interesting story.

 

ED: Same story @Hjulmann. You replied as I was typing, so I missed it until I posted.

[arnie_uk]

Joes passing attempts are distorted by the denver game. Hes had like under 30 attempts the browns and Houston game.

[SeaHawk]

I just don't understand why it's so hard for this team to air it out in the early downs to mix it up, versus just running the ball on 1st/2nd downs. It seems like every single year for the past 5 or so has been this way... too predictable. It's not that we don't have the receivers to air it out, we just have absurdly conservative offensive game plans which really hurts this team.

[Tank 92]

At this point, the Ravens offense is in a period of learning, conservatism  and damage control. Losing Pitta with no dependable replacement, losing Jacoby, Deonte(?), RR going down, O line struggling, etc. has things in a state of flux. It seems we are just trying to survive this period of uncertainty. As players develop and we get healthy bodies back, I'm confident the O will be fine and will produce big time.

[JoeCool#5]

The Ravens running game ranks

Rushing attempts - 88 (11th)

Rushing yards - 232 (25th)

Yards per carry - 2.6 (30th)

 

To say the offense needs to get its running game going is an understatement. 

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

Firstly, I'll say Kia Ora to a fellow Ravens fan from New Zealand.

 

Secondly, this period of transition has been difficult to watch. Young receivers learning and filling in big shoes was never going to be an easy transition. Nonetheless, some strides were made in the second half against Houston. Marlon Brown looks as though he will be a good performer for us down the road. 

 

As for Pitta, we miss him dearly. Clark looks so slow out there, as does Stokley. Certainly looking forward to some younger, speedier bodies at these positions. 

[ravensdan]

Truth be told, I thought we were alright during the Houston game after the first couple of drives. Always happy to be proven wrong in the name of good discussion though, and I haven't re-watched the game or anything.

Fair play to all of you though. I was looking at Joe Stafford Flacco's amount of passing attempts, which have been quite high so far this year, and our RB production and wondering if there was something seasonal going on (kinda like last year, although that may have just been the luck of the draw Cam Cameron's play selections). I appreciate the responses though, so +1 for your thoughts. I didn't realise we were actually top 10 in attempts - like you say that tells a really interesting story.

ED: Same story @Hjulmann. You replied as I was typing, so I missed it until I posted.

There are a lot of other factors involved here. I don't know if anyone remembers the first half of the Houston game, but the offense started backed up in their own end zone nearly every drive. I think the game plan was to air it out, which you saw later on on the game. But in this situation the coaches did the right thing and played more of a conservative game early because the situation dictated that.

By the way I agree with your premise the last several years the ravens have passed more early in the year and favored the run late. Due to weather conditions and keeping rice fresh. This year I believe we will Finnish with a higher pass vs run percentage than we have had in the past when all is said and done.

This week for example I expect flacco to have a lot of success early and often against this banged up secondary.

[GrimCoconut]

I see your theory. I'm not sure I personally agree with your premise. For your theory to work I think we would need to have a lower amount of attempts. The fact is we don't. I think if we were trying to let Ray keep his legs fresh then we would see more people calling for more Ray Rice. That's not the current predicament. More people are calling for more effective running.

[Puntit]

I don't think we are too worried about keeping Rice fresh for late in the season now that Pierce has emerged -- we will use them both hard and they will still each end up with half the wear and tear of those teams with one starter.

 

I think until the O-line learns how to open up holes we are going to continue to put up 2-3 yard rushing gains per carry, and we will continue to be frustrated, but I think you have to keep working on it until you get it right -- its something you can't fix without practicing it in a game setting. I would also note that the defenses we have been trying to run against were extremely  good against the run, which might not be the case with all the remaining games, including tomorrow (if Rice can go).

 

As for Joe going deep, I think the team has been trying to spread the ball around and figure out what its receivers can and can't do -- very much a fluid learning situation. As the TEs show they are more reliable in the short routes, and when Deonte comes back, I expect they will spread the field more. Also if Buffalo's secondary is really without a lot of players due to injury, as might be the case, I expect we will "test" whoever they put out there against Smith deep.

 

If we can just follow the beautiful road map created by the Jets, minus the 160 yards in penalties and the couple of interceptions, we should be in good shape I think.

[arnie_uk]

I just don't understand why it's so hard for this team to air it out in the early downs to mix it up, versus just running the ball on 1st/2nd downs. It seems like every single year for the past 5 or so has been this way... too predictable. It's not that we don't have the receivers to air it out, we just have absurdly conservative offensive game plans which really hurts this team.

its no coincidence that coincides with harbs taking over. He's generally conservative unless a situation dictates otherwise. Ie 3rd and long. 4th and short in 4th qtr and we are getting beat etc.

He believes in running the ball controlling the clock playing mistake free offense and keeping it close believing our d will make a play or the o can when and if reqd.

Thats great and all but it puts both sides of the ball under extreme pressure. One mistake ie a drop td against denver and then a poor ref call and we will always be behind the 8 ball.

If he attacked more often earlier we could get early leads then bully teams.

I'll be the first to admit I thought the conservative play was cam. But 3 games in its looking like its harbs decision. Unless they truly believe with our receiving unit we just can't open it up but I dont think thats the case as evidenced by our 3rd down passing success thus far.

[Puntit]

...

I'll be the first to admit I thought the conservative play was cam. But 3 games in its looking like its harbs decision. Unless they truly believe with our receiving unit we just can't open it up but I dont think thats the case as evidenced by our 3rd down passing success thus far.

I think when you have TEs who aren't catching and an O-line who isn't opening holes for the RBs, you maybe have to ease into it a bit before airing it out. As Harbs mentioned the other week, with Pitta and Jones, and now Rice out, and Dickson going through the dropsies, and Flacco having to rapidly develop a report with players like Marlon Brown who weren't even in the plan during the offseason, the "playbook" is really a work in progress. (When he said "At this point I don't even know what's in the playbook" I think he was only half joking).  Its not easy to go from a group of offensive players Joe was comfortable with to Torrey Smith and a cast of newbies and expect it to click right away. So you play it safe initially, let Smith do some shorter slot routes to offset the loss of Pitta/Q,  develop relationships, and then we will have a game where we just explode on someone.

[SeaHawk]

its no coincidence that coincides with harbs taking over. He's generally conservative unless a situation dictates otherwise. Ie 3rd and long. 4th and short in 4th qtr and we are getting beat etc.

He believes in running the ball controlling the clock playing mistake free offense and keeping it close believing our d will make a play or the o can when and if reqd.

Thats great and all but it puts both sides of the ball under extreme pressure. One mistake ie a drop td against denver and then a poor ref call and we will always be behind the 8 ball.

If he attacked more often earlier we could get early leads then bully teams.

I'll be the first to admit I thought the conservative play was cam. But 3 games in its looking like its harbs decision. Unless they truly believe with our receiving unit we just can't open it up but I dont think thats the case as evidenced by our 3rd down passing success thus far.

 

Very true. I, however, think it was a result of both Cam and Harbs. Cam ran his offense the way Harbs liked, so that's why Harbs kept him for so long instead of pushing for him to be fired (which likely would've resulted in Cam's dismissal sooner rather than later). But Harbs is still the coach here, so the conservative offense is still here, even with Cam gone. What makes me mad is the fact that we paid Flacco to be our franchise QB. Why in the world would you pay a guy that much money if we don't intend on letting him attack the D on a consistent basis?? Makes no sense at all.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

Very true. I, however, think it was a result of both Cam and Harbs. Cam ran his offense the way Harbs liked, so that's why Harbs kept him for so long instead of pushing for him to be fired (which likely would've resulted in Cam's dismissal sooner rather than later). But Harbs is still the coach here, so the conservative offense is still here, even with Cam gone. What makes me mad is the fact that we paid Flacco to be our franchise QB. Why in the world would you pay a guy that much money if we don't intend on letting him attack the D on a consistent basis?? Makes no sense at all.

 

I think they have great confidence on our defence, so can afford to approach it conservatively. Nonetheless, I agree. 

[hawkprey]

Last year, our run game was at its worst in the playoffs. Only 3.9 ypc. Of course that is much better than it is now. The run game sucks because they're implementing a new scheme and it's hard to learn.

[GrimCoconut]

I'll be the first to admit I thought the conservative play was cam. But 3 games in its looking like its harbs decision. Unless they truly believe with our receiving unit we just can't open it up but I dont think thats the case as evidenced by our 3rd down passing success thus far.

Yeah. It's looking like Harbaugh is the one who wants conservative plays and the ZBS. We always blamed Cam but it appears John wants it.

I still like Harbaugh but he needs to lose the conservative approach at times.

[TonyTone1192]

It's a combination of our offensive line not moving guys and our backs not finding the creases.
Like Joe said, "We just haven't been breaking off the long ones yet, we have to pay attention to detail and we're one minor detail away from breaking off long gains."

[beanfigger]

I'll be the first to admit I thought the conservative play was cam. But 3 games in its looking like its harbs decision. Unless they truly believe with our receiving unit we just can't open it up but I dont think thats the case as evidenced by our 3rd down passing success thus far.

Harbaugh is definitely conservative, but Cam's issue was always that would completely abandon the run in close games, even when we were leading or tied, and that the intermediate passing game over the middle was non-existent. I never felt his problem was being too conservative. He single-handedly lost is games, like against Pitt last year, because he had no idea how to run the clock and close out a win. If we're up by a score, that Rice just scampered 30 yds for, why would we drop back seven steps and go deep three straight times? Then on the next possession, you do the same thing (4x) when we're tied. Did we even have one running attempt in that fourth quarter? It wasn't that he was conservative, it was that he didn't seem to understand time and situation.

[arnie_uk]

Very true. I, however, think it was a result of both Cam and Harbs. Cam ran his offense the way Harbs liked, so that's why Harbs kept him for so long instead of pushing for him to be fired (which likely would've resulted in Cam's dismissal sooner rather than later). But Harbs is still the coach here, so the conservative offense is still here, even with Cam gone. What makes me mad is the fact that we paid Flacco to be our franchise QB. Why in the world would you pay a guy that much money if we don't intend on letting him attack the D on a consistent basis?? Makes no sense at all.

I've asked this before, it's almost as if there is a disconnect between the owner,front office and then management.

There is plenty of game manager qbs in this league you could get for half flaccos money, then we could have spent that elsewhere on say a trade for revis to have to elite cbs, or signed jake long to protect the blindside or a stud wideout etc etc.

Or you pay your arguably top 5 qb a boat load of money and hand over the reigns to him and let the passing offense fly. We have went for the latter, but it still seems as though harbs is stuck in the former mode of thinking as to regards our team.

[callahan09]

37.8% of Flacco's passes have been on third down.  League average outside of Flacco is 28.4%.  When such a high percentage of your pass attempts come in situations when the defense knows you're passing anyway, it's kind of hard to succeed.  In my opinion, Flacco's stats are negatively effected by playcalling, by strength of opposing defenses we've faced, and by some of our playmakers letting him down.  He has a tough job.  It's very, very difficult for a QB in his situation to put up nice looking stats.  When the running game is getting totally stuffed at the same time, it's just going to be ridiculously hard at that point.

[PolishRifle]

I've asked this before, it's almost as if there is a disconnect between the owner,front office and then management.

There is plenty of game manager qbs in this league you could get for half flaccos money, then we could have spent that elsewhere on say a trade for revis to have to elite cbs, or signed jake long to protect the blindside or a stud wideout etc etc.

Or you pay your arguably top 5 qb a boat load of money and hand over the reigns to him and let the passing offense fly. We have went for the latter, but it still seems as though harbs is stuck in the former mode of thinking as to regards our team.

 

In this season the run game stinks anyway. We only are able to move the ball by passing, so I don't understand where the problem in all of this is really.

 

In the next draft Ozzie needs to invest heavily in receivers, because paying Flacco that much money to watch him throw to a bunch of nobodies is a huge waste.

[Ravenseconbeast]

[quote name="callahan09" post="1601270" timestamp="1380387430"]37.8% of Flacco's passes have been on third down.  League average outside of Flacco is 28.4%.  When such a high percentage of your pass attempts come in situations when the defense knows you're passing anyway, it's kind of hard to succeed.  In my opinion, Flacco's stats are negatively effected by playcalling, by strength of opposing defenses we've faced, and by some of our playmakers letting him down.  He has a tough job.  It's very, very difficult for a QB in his situation to put up nice looking stats.  When the running game is getting totally stuffed at the same time, it's just going to be ridiculously hard at that point.[/quote]

No wonder Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning number stinks. Which such high % of your passing attempts come in situation when the defense knows you're passing.....give me a break...if you are elite QB you dont need an excuse. Somehow every flacco apologists find a way to blame everything else except flacco when offense is lacking. Whether run game is top 5( like in the past) or the passing weapon is loaded( like in the past) its either the coach, the coordinator, the defense or something else, but OH NO SIR, NEVER FLACCO my dear idol!.....Smh.

[arnie_uk]

No wonder Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning number stinks. Which such high % of your passing attempts come in situation when the defense knows you're passing.....give me a break...if you are elite QB you dont need an excuse. Somehow every flacco apologists find a way to blame everything else except flacco when offense is lacking. Whether run game is top 5( like in the past) or the passing weapon is loaded( like in the past) its either the coach, the coordinator, the defense or something else, but OH NO SIR, NEVER FLACCO my dear idol!.....Smh.

you do know flacco has the most 3rd down passing yards in the league right? Flacco is doing whats asked of him, convert long third downs

[PolishRifle]

No wonder Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning number stinks. Which such high % of your passing attempts come in situation when the defense knows you're passing.....give me a break...if you are elite QB you dont need an excuse. Somehow every flacco apologists find a way to blame everything else except flacco when offense is lacking. Whether run game is top 5( like in the past) or the passing weapon is loaded( like in the past) its either the coach, the coordinator, the defense or something else, but OH NO SIR, NEVER FLACCO my dear idol!.....Smh.

Right now Flacco has almost the same QBR, Passer Rating and more Passing Yards and Completion Percentage than Brady. Brees, Rodgers and Manning are throwing to a ton of great receivers and unlike Brady and Rodgers, Flacco has never been seen arguing with his HC on the sideline or cussing at his receivers.

But you're right, Flacco aka the only reason why we convert 3rd downs  is clearly the reason for our offensive struggles.

[Ravensfan23]

The offense is conservative by necessity right now. Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, in the Texans game the offense only had 4 possessions in the first and 2 of them were started inside the 10 yard line.(7 and 1). I too thought the game plan was too conservative early but when you think about it, it was the correct call.

With a group of new weapons who are really just getting that chemistry with Joe and a oline who isn't really strong at pass blocking/picking up blitzes, do you really want Flacco dropping back into his own endzone. Far too many risk there in a game that you expect to be close and against a aggressive defense who you expect to have limited chances against. One missed hot route or blocking assignment and your looking at 6 or 2 points and a huge momentum shift. We all know about one play changing a game.

Also if you look at those drives, on the first one, the running game actually produced 7 yards, but on 3rd and 3 Brown hesitated a bit on a slant that would have produced a first down and probably allowed us to go no huddle. Because the Texans held the ball so long, those 2 possessions started inside the 10 yard line were the only drives of the first quarter. The next offensive drive started in the 2nd quarter and at the 24 yard line. We started with a PA pass to Leach for 7yds. A nice drive starter. Aided by a 15yd taunting penalty we got the ball out to mid field. Flacco completed at 20+ yard pass to Dickson but it came back because of a bogus(imo) facemask penalty on BMac. The next drive we scored and the offense didn't touch the field again until the 2nd half.

They scored on the first drive of the 2nd half and moved the ball wellll on the next drive before getting stopped on 3rd and 1. Then scored on the next 2 drives. But just looking at that game, it initially looked like we were far too conservative, but when I re-watched without the emotion of wanting the Ravens to win, I thought the gameplan was effected poor field position and penalties imo. I don't think the offense is holding back in any area, they just aren't clicking right now.

[callahan09]

No wonder Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning number stinks. Which such high % of your passing attempts come in situation when the defense knows you're passing.....give me a break...if you are elite QB you dont need an excuse. Somehow every flacco apologists find a way to blame everything else except flacco when offense is lacking. Whether run game is top 5( like in the past) or the passing weapon is loaded( like in the past) its either the coach, the coordinator, the defense or something else, but OH NO SIR, NEVER FLACCO my dear idol!.....Smh.

So in your world the offense doesn't matter... Only the QB matters. It doesn't matter what game plan the coaches come up with, what plays are called, how the running game performs, how the line blocks, whether the receivers get open, or whether the receivers catch the ball when it comes their way. All that matters is the QB and regardless of all those other pieces of the puzzle if the offense is struggling it is because the QB didn't play all 11 positions and coach the team to perfection all by himself. I guess the quality of defenses you face off against don't make any bit of difference either. I got it.