Continuing issue: The run game

[Ravenseconbeast]

bad news, we are sticking with this ZBS run game:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/1196/harbaugh-remains-confident-in-run-game

 

The Ravens are averaging 77.3 yards rushing, which ranks 25th in the NFL. Baltimore is gaining 2.6 yards per carry, and only the Jacksonville Jaguars (2.4) are averaging fewer. 

 

"Our run game is not where it needs to be," Harbaugh said. "I think one thing you've seen is that philosophically we're going to stick with it. It's something that we think is important. We're going to be able to run the ball here. It's just part of our DNA. It's part of who we are as a football team." 

 

-ESPN jamison hensely

[Militant X 1]

This is actually a legitimate debate, and it's something that's come up multiple times since the switch.  The ZBS obviously can work and can work very well.  Mike Shanahan has been turning average Joes into stars using it for many many years, and Houston has built their entire team around it to disguise the weaknesses of Matt Schaub.  That being said, it might not work with our personnel.  Obviously Yanda is excluded from this discussion, he's the best guard in the league and is scheme transcendent.  It's possible that our lineman (cough Oher) are too stupid to handle a scheme where assignments aren't as black and white.  It might also be that Rice has trouble diagnosing and finding the hole in the ZBS.  The one season where Rice was actually an elite runner back occurred using a power/man scheme.

 

 

You can't run the football and 'pound the rock' in today's league and expect to win the Super Bowl.  We won it last year using a balanced, leaning pass a little, offense in the playoffs.  And even if you could, you can't when you're averaging 2.6 yards per carry.  The run doesn't magically get established, and they really tried to establish it.  Jim Caldwell should be commended for sticking to a completely and totally ineffective running game for as long as he did, but it still doesn't shut people who don't understand that the game has changed up.

I disagree! 

 

to say, "pound the rock" doesn't mean that that is all you do.  of course you have to be balanced and throw the ball as well man.  that goes without saying!  however, when your personnel is geared more towards running the rock....run the rock! imo, this Ravens team is not built to be a high octane passing machine.  that's just not them!  every season we see cats in here posting about receivers not being able to get separation.  lol!  but the personnel is built for establishing a running identity with some play action, and various other types of passing routes mixed in off of that.  the scheme needs to fit the team!

 

~Mili

[Hey Diddle]

At least Jim Caldwell is sticking with it, our 88 rushing attempts rank 10th in the NFL.  That being said,  What about throwing more on first down? I think we are alittle to predictable? I would like to know are run/pass % on first downs.

[gabefergy]

At least Jim Caldwell is sticking with it, our 88 rushing attempts rank 10th in the NFL. That being said, What about throwing more on first down? I think we are alittle to predictable? I would like to know are run/pass % on first downs.

Agree 100%

Even if its just a quick slant or out. Something to get the offense going.

[PolishRifle]

Agree 100%

Even if its just a quick slant or out. Something to get the offense going.

 

It's really predictable, if it's all we do on 1st and 2nd down and then only throw to convert 3rd downs or in the second half, when we got behind.

The Oline might be one of the problems for the running game, but the playcalling doesn't help.

[good_n_purple]

I thought it was John that wanted more of a ZBS? I could have sworn I remember reading that in an article. Anyone else recall this or did I go off the deep end?

It must be Harbs who is pushing this debacle.  Did you hear him in the press conference?  They are going to keep working the ZBS no matter what.

[flaccopoe]

It's really predictable, if it's all we do on 1st and 2nd down and then only throw to convert 3rd downs or in the second half, when we got behind.

The Oline might be one of the problems for the running game, but the playcalling doesn't help.

 

Cam Cameron?

[The Raven]

bad news, we are sticking with this ZBS run game:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/1196/harbaugh-remains-confident-in-run-game

 

The Ravens are averaging 77.3 yards rushing, which ranks 25th in the NFL. Baltimore is gaining 2.6 yards per carry, and only the Jacksonville Jaguars (2.4) are averaging fewer. 

 

"Our run game is not where it needs to be," Harbaugh said. "I think one thing you've seen is that philosophically we're going to stick with it. It's something that we think is important. We're going to be able to run the ball here. It's just part of our DNA. It's part of who we are as a football team." 

 

-ESPN jamison hensely

 

 

Where in that article is there anything that references the ZBS?

 

It must be Harbs who is pushing this debacle.  Did you hear him in the press conference?  They are going to keep working the ZBS no matter what.

 

Did he say they are going to keep working the scheme, or just that they are going to continue to run it? There is a difference there... Based on the quotes above, it sounds like they are going to continue a run game, with no mention of scheme at all.

[Militant X 1]

At least Jim Caldwell is sticking with it, our 88 rushing attempts rank 10th in the NFL.  That being said,  What about throwing more on first down? I think we are alittle to predictable? I would like to know are run/pass % on first downs.

cool!  but I also agree with you that he needs to mix things up!  I hate the predictability of his playcalling; run, run, pass, run, run, pass etc.  i'm looking forward to the day where we don't have to keep coming in here and complaining about that type of scenario.  imo, a new coordinator but the same ole' song and dance!  unbelievable!

 

~Mili

[rayrayven]

It must be Harbs who is pushing this debacle.  Did you hear him in the press conference?  They are going to keep working the ZBS no matter what.

 

This is like Cam Cameron 2.0. Everyone can see the ZBS stinks(it stunk last year too with those endless runs up the middle). Just  like people saw Cam as wrong and Harbs was last to admit it he wants to drag out this fiasco.  Raiders dumped there ZBS for MacFadden (who hated it) because it was a disaster there too

[The Raven]

I'm not going so far as to say it's Cam Cameron 2.0. Caldwell is better in every damn way. There's more over the middle. Torrey is used on drags and not just fades. Young WRs are getting more reps. There's more formation diversity. Most importantly, we get second half adjustments now. The only way he compares to Cam is the run, run, pass, which I don't mind. Yeah, it can be predictable, but it's not terrible if the blocking works. 

 

One reason I think he's going so run heavy right now is to put less pressure on the passing game and the receivers. 

[gabefergy]

I'm not going so far as to say it's Cam Cameron 2.0. Caldwell is better in every damn way. There's more over the middle. Torrey is used on drags and not just fades. Young WRs are getting more reps. There's more formation diversity. Most importantly, we get second half adjustments now. The only way he compares to Cam is the run, run, pass, which I don't mind. Yeah, it can be predictable, but it's not terrible if the blocking works. 

 

One reason I think he's going so run heavy right now is to put less pressure on the passing game and the receivers. 

If it works, this statement is accurate. However, with the ineffective running game I think it is putting more pressure on the passing game because they have to repeatedly make plays on 3rd and long. So far, Joe and the receiving corps has been up to the task but I'm not sure it can continue to be so successful.

 

The problem with the run-run-pass approach is that the defense knows the pass is coming on 3rd and long. If we pass more on early downs they have to at least respect the run, especially if we use PA. 

[T3hRaven]

At least Jim Caldwell is sticking with it, our 88 rushing attempts rank 10th in the NFL. That being said, What about throwing more on first down? I think we are alittle to predictable? I would like to know are run/pass % on first downs.

It really is commendable, considering how utterly pathetic our run game is. I don't think we throw a lot on first down, but I haven't been displeased with Caldwell so far.

[The Raven]

From an article today:

 

"Baltimore’s offensive line did more stretch-zone run blocking last year. On Monday, Harbaugh pointed to needing to clean up combination blocks.

“I would characterize it more of being in sync, I think, more in terms of working together more efficiently – combination blocks going to the right guy with the right technique at the right time,” Harbaugh said. “It’s not just a matter of just one-on-one knocking somebody off the ball. That’s not the way it works. It’s way more complicated than that up front.”"

 

I see a lot of this. I've seen a lot of times where there's been a hole, but the RB gets had by a backside linemen or linebacker. On Sunday, there was one power play where Yanda pulled between KO and McKinnie. They made a huge hole, and Gino helped with that, but nobody got the back side backer who just shot in and made the TFL. It's a lot of stuff like that that's been killing us.

 

It also said there are new wrinkles that Castillo has added that still need to be ironed out.

 

So, the running game will get better, I think. It's just a matter of chemistry and mastering technique. 

[callahan09]

At least Jim Caldwell is sticking with it, our 88 rushing attempts rank 10th in the NFL.  That being said,  What about throwing more on first down? I think we are alittle to predictable? I would like to know are run/pass % on first downs.

 

Through 3 games, our pass/rush ratio on first downs is 46.1%/53.9% (League Avg = 51.5%/48.5%).

[The Raven]

Through 3 games, our pass/rush ratio on first downs is 46.1%/53.9% (League Avg = 51.5%/48.5%).

 

Thanks Mr. Stat man. So we're under the average for first down passes, but still balanced. Got it, thanks. 

[CalvinSmoke]

You guys wont be happy either way on first down because in the first half when we pass it's almost always incomplete and when we run we get no where. We are just a bad team on first down, and are doing an atrocious job running the ball in general. 

[izvoodoo]

You guys wont be happy either way on first down because in the first half when we pass it's almost always incomplete and when we run we get no where. We are just a bad team on first down, and are doing an atrocious job running the ball in general. 

It shocks me how bad we are running the ball.  I thought we'd be average in the worst case.

[Ravenseconbeast]

It shocks me how bad we are running the ball.  I thought we'd be average in the worst case.

We are 2nd worst in ypg in run game in nfl. We havent been this bad since, well since never.

[callahan09]

We are 2nd worst in ypg in run game in nfl. We havent been this bad since, well since never.

In the Harbaugh/Flacco era (since 2008), 2.64 yards per attempt through the first 3 games of the season ranks as the 6th worst in the NFL (out of 192 team seasons) [this year's worst, the 2013 Jaguars, is the worst since the 2004 Dolphins, and is the 17th worst of all time] ... ours is the 55th worst of all time.

[Tank 92]

From an article today:
 
"Baltimore’s offensive line did more stretch-zone run blocking last year. On Monday, Harbaugh pointed to needing to clean up combination blocks.
“I would characterize it more of being in sync, I think, more in terms of working together more efficiently – combination blocks going to the right guy with the right technique at the right time,” Harbaugh said. “It’s not just a matter of just one-on-one knocking somebody off the ball. That’s not the way it works. It’s way more complicated than that up front.”"
 
I see a lot of this. I've seen a lot of times where there's been a hole, but the RB gets had by a backside linemen or linebacker. On Sunday, there was one power play where Yanda pulled between KO and McKinnie. They made a huge hole, and Gino helped with that, but nobody got the back side backer who just shot in and made the TFL. It's a lot of stuff like that that's been killing us.
 
It also said there are new wrinkles that Castillo has added that still need to be ironed out.
 
So, the running game will get better, I think. It's just a matter of chemistry and mastering technique.

This is the most logical, and probably correct explanation for the troubles. Hopefully the pain being suffered now pays big dividends down the road.

[beanfigger]

Is this really what the problem was with Cameron? I don't remember him running our guys into a wall 30 times a game. In fact, I felt the main problem, especially towards the end of his time here, was the fact that when our ground game was struggling, or even sometimes when it wasn't, he had a tendency to completely abandon it. Joe would be left trying to wait for our guys to get behind a defense whose front seven would have their ears pinned back to rush him because there was no threat of us handing the ball off. That is what cost us some games (Pitt at home last year comes to mind).

The difference with Caldwell is that he still runs the ball even when it isn't working. I think that is important to do to keep the defenses honest. It also helps that he works the intermediate and middle o the field in the passing game. The problem isn't that we're running too much. It's that it is producing nothing in the ZBS. I do agree we need to switch it up a little more in terms of down and distance, though.

[callahan09]

The Ravens have 2 running backs with at least 50 carries this season, Pierce and Rice.  There are 27 in the NFL.  The only other team with 2 is Buffalo (C.J. Spiller and Fred Jackson).  Out of the 27, Rice and Pierce rank 25th and 26th in YPA, with only MJD of the abysmal Jacksonville Jaguars being ranked worse than them.

 

Our 1st down percentage of 15.3% on rush attempts is the worst in the league.

 

2 fumbles from the running backs is 4th worst, only 3 teams have had their running backs fumble more than twice so far this year.

 

1.5% fumble percentage on rush attempts is 9th worst.

 

2.84 yards per rush attempt is 2nd worst in the league just above the Jacksonville Jaguars.

 

We've had 59 rush attempts that went for 1 yard or less and did not result in a first down or touchdown, 2nd most in the NFL.

[Ed_Reed20]

The Ravens have 2 running backs with at least 50 carries this season, Pierce and Rice.  There are 27 in the NFL.  The only other team with 2 is Buffalo (C.J. Spiller and Fred Jackson).  Out of the 27, Rice and Pierce rank 25th and 26th in YPA, with only MJD of the abysmal Jacksonville Jaguars being ranked worse than them.

 

Our 1st down percentage of 15.3% on rush attempts is the worst in the league.

 

2 fumbles from the running backs is 4th worst, only 3 teams have had their running backs fumble more than twice so far this year.

 

1.5% fumble percentage on rush attempts is 9th worst.

 

2.84 yards per rush attempt is 2nd worst in the league just above the Jacksonville Jaguars.

 

We've had 59 rush attempts that went for 1 yard or less and did not result in a first down or touchdown, 2nd most in the NFL.

 

The Ravens have 2 running backs with at least 50 carries this season, Pierce and Rice.  There are 27 in the NFL.  The only other team with 2 is Buffalo (C.J. Spiller and Fred Jackson).  Out of the 27, Rice and Pierce rank 25th and 26th in YPA, with only MJD of the abysmal Jacksonville Jaguars being ranked worse than them.

 

Our 1st down percentage of 15.3% on rush attempts is the worst in the league.

 

2 fumbles from the running backs is 4th worst, only 3 teams have had their running backs fumble more than twice so far this year.

 

1.5% fumble percentage on rush attempts is 9th worst.

 

2.84 yards per rush attempt is 2nd worst in the league just above the Jacksonville Jaguars.

 

We've had 59 rush attempts that went for 1 yard or less and did not result in a first down or touchdown, 2nd most in the NFL.

 

That is ugly...

[Ed_Reed20]

Those are some ugly numbers. 

[Alexir]

I would like our carries to go as follows:

 

Rice 20-25, 5-8 catches a game.

 

Pierce 15 carries

[jimjim5]

If it works, this statement is accurate. However, with the ineffective running game I think it is putting more pressure on the passing game because they have to repeatedly make plays on 3rd and long. So far, Joe and the receiving corps has been up to the task but I'm not sure it can continue to be so successful.

 

The problem with the run-run-pass approach is that the defense knows the pass is coming on 3rd and long. If we pass more on early downs they have to at least respect the run, especially if we use PA. 

 

running on first or second down is crucial. Just as occasionally passing on first down is crucial. It is a symbiotic relationship!

 

Also the ONLY problem with run, run, pass is not gaining any yards to get to a 3rd and short. I would give up something meaningful if all we did was run, run, pass. That probably means we are

trucking teams on our way back to the Superbowl, .

[izvoodoo]

It really is commendable, considering how utterly pathetic our run game is. I don't think we throw a lot on first down, but I haven't been displeased with Caldwell so far.

We're just so bad at running the ball we have to keep doing it until it works at this point.  Our pass protections is also an issue.

 

Basically any play involving the offensive line.

[gabefergy]

running on first or second down is crucial. Just as occasionally passing on first down is crucial. It is a symbiotic relationship!

 

Also the ONLY problem with run, run, pass is not gaining any yards to get to a 3rd and short. I would give up something meaningful if all we did was run, run, pass. That probably means we are

trucking teams on our way back to the Superbowl, .

Running the ball is important, but running on the first down is not critical. When we run the ball on first down 70% of the time it takes away the the aspect of surprise and it is why we face so many 3rd and longs. There is a reason why the league average is close to 50% run:pass on first down. Statistically speaking, passing the ball on first down leads to a much higher yard per play than running it. The chance for an incompletion is always there, but there is also a much greater chance for a significant gain. When running the ball is only averaging us 2 yards on first down it is not much better than a n incompletion anyways.

[jimjim5]

Running the ball is important, but running on the first down is not critical. When we run the ball on first down 70% of the time it takes away the the aspect of surprise and it is why we face so many 3rd and longs. There is a reason why the league average is close to 50% run:pass on first down. Statistically speaking, passing the ball on first down leads to a much higher yard per play than running it. The chance for an incompletion is always there, but there is also a much greater chance for a significant gain. When running the ball is only averaging us 2 yards on first down it is not much better than a n incompletion anyways.

 

And teams with that philosophy are usually having Superbowl parties.......................................... at their house.