QB Joe Flacco

[jimmypowder]

[quote name="ellicottraven" post="1554918" timestamp="1377493474"] Really? A little over the top even for sarcasm....[/quote] What's over the top is Ravens fans booing Joe during a meaningless preseason game Booing the Super Bowl MVP is embarrassing . If I was at the stadium ,I would have been embarrassed even if fully drunk .

[5aiah]

Amen to all of this!

 

There's so much gray area when it comes to "QBs making WRs."  I mean guys like Peyton/Eli/Brees/Brady/Rodgers have shown a knack for elevating the production of otherwise medicore WRs in the past, but on a play by play basis, most people who think QBs like Flacco should "make WRs" aren't able to look at an individual play and say "this is how Flacco can make this guy better, or bail his receiver out."  

 

I'm not saying QBs making WRs is a myth, but it's not nearly as simple as people seem to think.  QBs can't make WRs make plays or catch the ball or run the right route etc....

 

You can't make guys get separation off the line when they're pressed, you can't make guys make their own in game adjustments on blitz recognition and you for damn sure can't make guys catch passes.  I don't understand the argument that a QB can simply make a WR better because the QB is good.  There's so many variables in football that you can't account for.  We run a vastly different offense than ones like NE or GB or NO simply because we have an Oline that is better at run blocking that pass protection and we actually have a real HB, two of them no less.  So Flacco has far less opportunities to just air it out like Brees, Rodgers or Brady.  We'd also absolutely freak out if Flacco threw 19 ints in a season, regardless if he threw 30 odd TDs like Brees last year.  We'll see how Caldwell does with scheming guys open but Cameron was awful for just expecting guys to get open on talent alone, you dont see that with offenses like NE, NO or GB.  

I think it's just too easy and bit of a cop out to expect a QB to make his WRs better in every facet.  Should he make them better absolutely, but he can't make guys catch the ball or get them separation.  Everyone says Boldin balled out in the playoffs, and he did, but people easily dismiss the absolute pinpoint accuracy Flacco had to throw those balls to Boldin with.  Boldin had zero separation, but did Flacco make him a better receiver in the playoffs?  I dont think so, I think Flacco was just playing phenomenally.

Don't think you guys understand what people mean when they say a QB makes the WRs better. They usually mean they work the offense in a way that allows the receivers to have a much easier time. The truth is Flacco has not yet proven to be that type of guy nor does he really need to be as he will get help soon. The hopes is that Flacco can become such a player and that would easily justify his pay grade instead of paying all that money for "just" a clutch strong arm QB. One problem I see is that (Bltravens) references Flaccos pinpoint accuracy,while a few of his throws maybe be right on the money, compared to other QBs I watch, his accuracy is nothing to write home about. You speak of Boldin's lack of separation but his range and ability to stretch out and make difficult catches also helped even when a throw was off,no matter if he was fully covered or not. Anyway, the ability to run a variety of complex routes that can break down defenses is something that can help receivers greatly, but that requires top knotch zone reading ability and sound decision making, chemistry, and trust in a receiver in man coverage as well. The majority of Flacco's key plays for first downs were simple passes vs man coverage(by a slot corner safety or linebacker) on Pitta and Boldin. Timing is also a crucial element to raising a receivers play and is something Flacco will have to improve on if he wants to join the ranks of "WR making"QBs. Lastly the offensive coordinator has to be in complete harmony with the passer and know said passer in and out or at least get with the program quickly. They each have to have full trust the other completely. I think Flacco has been set up for a great year and will begin improving on his weaknesses and in turn become a "WR Maker" like his fellow elite. He already has the arm.

[GrimCoconut]

What's over the top is Ravens fans booing Joe during a meaningless preseason game Booing the Super Bowl MVP is embarrassing . If I was at the stadium ,I wouldhave been embarrassed even if fully drunk .

I must've missed it. We booed Joe?!

[jimmypowder]

I heard Joe was booed .there was no booing going on ?

[jimmypowder]

I heard he was booed . There was no booing going on during the Panthers game? I heard there was.

[GrimCoconut]

I heard he was booed . There was no booing going on during the Panthers game? I heard there was.

I don't recall it. Now I want to know. I'm not saying it didn't happen. Just that I don't recall it

[Radinho84]

Don't think you guys understand what people mean when they say a QB makes the WRs better. They usually mean they work the offense in a way that allows the receivers to have a much easier time. The truth is Flacco has not yet proven to be that type of guy nor does he really need to be as he will get help soon. The hopes is that Flacco can become such a player and that would easily justify his pay grade instead of paying all that money for "just" a clutch strong arm QB. One problem I see is that (Bltravens) references Flaccos pinpoint accuracy,while a few of his throws maybe be right on the money, compared to other QBs I watch, his accuracy is nothing to write home about. You speak of Boldin's lack of separation but his range and ability to stretch out and make difficult catches also helped even when a throw was off,no matter if he was fully covered or not. Anyway, the ability to run a variety of complex routes that can break down defenses is something that can help receivers greatly, but that requires top knotch zone reading ability and sound decision making, chemistry, and trust in a receiver in man coverage as well. The majority of Flacco's key plays for first downs were simple passes vs man coverage(by a slot corner safety or linebacker) on Pitta and Boldin. Timing is also a crucial element to raising a receivers play and is something Flacco will have to improve on if he wants to join the ranks of "WR making"QBs. Lastly the offensive coordinator has to be in complete harmony with the passer and know said passer in and out or at least get with the program quickly. They each have to have full trust the other completely. I think Flacco has been set up for a great year and will begin improving on his weaknesses and in turn become a "WR Maker" like his fellow elite. He already has the arm.

when you talk about throws being off: what flacco did in the playoffs last year was to put the ball in a place where only boldin and really only him could have a chance to catch the ball. Those were´t bad throws by any means. those were placed exactly where joe wanted them to be. If boldin could´t make the catches those balls were at least no where in danger of being interceptions. 

 

Please don´t make the mistake to think that flacco just throws a bad pass to boldin and boldin saves the day every time. Those passes are exactly placed where they needed to be.

 

If to weren´t for Housh or some other guys Joe would have played in 3 Superbowls already and we were still having the same discussions....

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Don't think you guys understand what people mean when they say a QB makes the WRs better. They usually mean they work the offense in a way that allows the receivers to have a much easier time. The truth is Flacco has not yet proven to be that type of guy nor does he really need to be as he will get help soon. The hopes is that Flacco can become such a player and that would easily justify his pay grade instead of paying all that money for "just" a clutch strong arm QB. One problem I see is that (Bltravens) references Flaccos pinpoint accuracy,while a few of his throws maybe be right on the money, compared to other QBs I watch, his accuracy is nothing to write home about. You speak of Boldin's lack of separation but his range and ability to stretch out and make difficult catches also helped even when a throw was off,no matter if he was fully covered or not. Anyway, the ability to run a variety of complex routes that can break down defenses is something that can help receivers greatly, but that requires top knotch zone reading ability and sound decision making, chemistry, and trust in a receiver in man coverage as well. The majority of Flacco's key plays for first downs were simple passes vs man coverage(by a slot corner safety or linebacker) on Pitta and Boldin. Timing is also a crucial element to raising a receivers play and is something Flacco will have to improve on if he wants to join the ranks of "WR making"QBs. Lastly the offensive coordinator has to be in complete harmony with the passer and know said passer in and out or at least get with the program quickly. They each have to have full trust the other completely. I think Flacco has been set up for a great year and will begin improving on his weaknesses and in turn become a "WR Maker" like his fellow elite. He already has the arm.

 

Your last point in my opinion is the most important.

 

A QB cannot make receivers, plain and simple. Tom Brady doesn't make those receivers better - he's a great QB who plays in a system that highlights his talents and compensates for the lack of talent the team experiences at WR.

 

The offensive system makes the WRs better bc its easier on them physically. The difficulty transfers first to the offensive coordinator in creating schemes/plays that are more complex and rely on timing, misdirection, and distraction...  I'll use McDonalds as a metaphor here, a multibillion dollar franchise that day-to-day is run by undereducated teenagers. It's success relies on highly developed systems that with enough repetition anyone can do over and over again. 

 

However, you do need a very skilled an intelligent QB to run the offense, understand it, and be machine-like enough to put the ball on the spot at the perfect time, and to run the correct audible when a defense changes their fronts/coverage to exploit the difference.

 

It almost becomes the chicken vs. the egg.... bc yes you need a QB that has the physical tools to execute the offense and the mental capacity to understand what, why and how. But without the proper offense all the talent in the world looks pedestrian as we have seen here in Baltimore with Flacco and even to an extent his receivers and how they were used under Cam. We saw it with Brees under Cam as well.

 

I don't think Aaron Rodgers would have been Aaron Rodgers if he had Boldin to throw to running Go routes down the seam and on the outside all day.

 

I think the debate of making WRs fall more on the offensive system and by association the guy in charge of creating it. There are more successes in plugging QBs into a system... like when Brady went down and the Pats still went what 11-5? What has Matt Cassel proven to be outside of that? And as it relates to WRs look at Randy Moss the season without Brady there (2008). Still great numbers with Matt Cassel throwing the ball, numbers he never saw again outside of NE. So was it Brady that brought his career back or just NE's system? Granted no one can argue that either "made" Moss, but I think the argument applies bc Moss had certainly fallen off a bit before resuscitating his career in NE.

 

Again, here in Baltimore did Boldin forget how to play for 3 years and then Joe made him better all the sudden in the playoffs? Bc he was suddenly on pace in the post season for outstanding numbers that we'd never seen from him since coming here - I would argue that he was the same guy, but finally Baltimore ran plays that relied on timing rather then on waiting for things to develop on the outside and downfield. Boldin is a timing guy, bc if he knows when and where the ball is gonna be he's savvy enough to get himself in the right position and then strong enough to win the ball even if contested.

 

Getting kind of off topic, but I would argue that it's not the QB who "makes WRs". Certain offenses can cover up deficiencies in pass catchers that allow mediocre players into real producers -- in a sense scheming them open where their job is simply to be at x spot after x seconds and catch the ball.

 

I think it is incorrect to say the QB "makes" the receivers bc its simply not true - but I think the misconception comes from the understanding that a team can only run an offense like that with a QB who has the intelligence to know what to call, when and why and the physical ability to consistently put the ball on x spot after x seconds.

 

I argue for the offense being more important bc I think there are more QB's who can be successful in a great offense than there are offenses that fit a great QB.

[izvoodoo]

I don't recall it. Now I want to know. I'm not saying it didn't happen. Just that I don't recall it

They booed at the end of the first half, it was more on the offense for turning the ball over.

[GrimCoconut]

They booed at the end of the first half, it was more on the offense for turning the ball over.

Ahhh. Thanks. Didn't we boo last year, too? I can't remember. I feel like I remember it and I feel like I remember Joe or someone saying they would've booed as well.

[izvoodoo]

Ahhh. Thanks. Didn't we boo last year, too? I can't remember. I feel like I remember it and I feel like I remember Joe or someone saying they would've booed as well.

Yeah, whenever we have those halves of football we boo.  A lot of fans boo.  They get frustrated.

[Militant X 1]

Yeah, whenever we have those halves of football we boo.  A lot of fans boo.  They get frustrated.

booing is apart of the game just like cheering.  preseason or not!!

 

~Mili

[izvoodoo]

booing is apart of the game just like cheering.  preseason or not!!

 

~Mili

I have no issues with it.  My stuff is cursing in front of kids and drinking too much.  I'd like to cut that out.

[PolishRifle]

We all know Boldin frequently bailed Joe out with his contested catches:

 

 

Especially in the end zone:

 

 

A true elite QB doesn't make those type of throws expecting that a WR just catches it in traffic:

 

 

Right?

[beanfigger]

We all know Boldin frequently bailed Joe out with his contested catches:

 

 

Especially in the end zone:

 

 

A true elite QB doesn't make those type of throws expecting that a WR just catches it in traffic:

 

 

Right?

 

I never knew Flacco played for so many other teams.  He must be older than I thought.

[PolishRifle]

I never knew Flacco played for so many other teams.  He must be older than I thought.

Critics pretend that Joe's postseason performance doesn't count, just because he could count on Boldin to make tough catches, but all the best QBs always had go-to-guys.

Brees, Brady and Rogers all have/had atleast one receiver, whom they can trust almost blindly.

[beanfigger]

Critics pretend that Joe's postseason performance doesn't count, just because he could count on Boldin to make tough catches, but all the best QBs always had go-to-guys.

Brees, Brady and Rogers all have/had atleast one receiver, whom they can trust almost blindly.

 

The part that bothers me is when one of our guys makes a good catch, he is bailing Joe out.  However, when you see countless highlight reel catches in NO or GB or Denver, it's because that QB put it in the perfect spot where "only their receiver can get it."

[5aiah]

when you talk about throws being off: what flacco did in the playoffs last year was to put the ball in a place where only boldin and really only him could have a chance to catch the ball. Those were´t bad throws by any means. those were placed exactly where joe wanted them to be. If boldin could´t make the catches those balls were at least no where in danger of being interceptions. 

 

Please don´t make the mistake to think that flacco just throws a bad pass to boldin and boldin saves the day every time. Those passes are exactly placed where they needed to be.

 

If to weren´t for Housh or some other guys Joe would have played in 3 Superbowls already and we were still having the same discussions....

No one is saying that. But Flacco isn't the most accurate QB. That being said I love that he puts it in a place where its our catch or no ones,but he usually is best at that going deep where I think he threw a good number of TDs and no picks last season counting only throws farther than 20 yards in the air. Problem is what he does in the short and intermediary game(though some of that lies with Cam) and how he has a tendency to throw mind numbing bad passes or makes terrible reads at times. Perhaps the Superbowl run cleared all that up(I'm guessing you think this too). I don't think so,I'm more inclined to believe the clearing up will happen later this year and that the run was only the beginning. 

 

Your last point in my opinion is the most important.

 

A QB cannot make receivers, plain and simple. Tom Brady doesn't make those receivers better - he's a great QB who plays in a system that highlights his talents and compensates for the lack of talent the team experiences at WR.

 

The offensive system makes the WRs better bc its easier on them physically. The difficulty transfers first to the offensive coordinator in creating schemes/plays that are more complex and rely on timing, misdirection, and distraction...  I'll use McDonalds as a metaphor here, a multibillion dollar franchise that day-to-day is run by undereducated teenagers. It's success relies on highly developed systems that with enough repetition anyone can do over and over again. 

 

However, you do need a very skilled an intelligent QB to run the offense, understand it, and be machine-like enough to put the ball on the spot at the perfect time, and to run the correct audible when a defense changes their fronts/coverage to exploit the difference.

 

Getting kind of off topic, but I would argue that it's not the QB who "makes WRs". Certain offenses can cover up deficiencies in pass catchers that allow mediocre players into real producers -- in a sense scheming them open where their job is simply to be at x spot after x seconds and catch the ball.

 

I think it is incorrect to say the QB "makes" the receivers bc its simply not true - but I think the misconception comes from the understanding that a team can only run an offense like that with a QB who has the intelligence to know what to call, when and why and the physical ability to consistently put the ball on x spot after x seconds.

 

 

Yeah its just easier for people to identify QBs as the "receiver makers" I guess. We agree on the unseen(to some) role of the offensive system and coordinator in terms of raising a receivers play alongside the Quarterback. That being said I think people think Joe is ready to be that QB right out of the gate while I think he still needs work on his reads timing and accuracy before he can truly fill that role. Curious as to your thoughts.

[5aiah]

The part that bothers me is when one of our guys makes a good catch, he is bailing Joe out.  However, when you see countless highlight reel catches in NO or GB or Denver, it's because that QB put it in the perfect spot where "only their receiver can get it."

Those guys have pinpoint accuracy and usually put it in the perfect spot where it is easy for them to get it and only they can do so, on a consistent basis. Flacco hasn't shown that and while he almost always puts it in a spot where only his receiver can get it when throwing deep deep, the same can't always be said elsewhere. That and he also has a tendency to overthrow quite a bit,which is a major factor of him never turning it over deep. I rather him do that than under throw for a pick trying to do something he can't on a consistent basis. Comparing Flacco to the leagues most accurate QBs just isn't a good idea. He might not even be a top 10 QB in terms of pure accuracy. What he does have is a major cannon though with good enough accuracy to make big plays down field, zip the ball into tight spots short to mid range and the aforementioned tendency that limits turnovers greatly.  

[beanfigger]

Those guys have pinpoint accuracy and usually put it in the perfect spot where it is easy for them to get it and only they can do so, on a consistent basis. Flacco hasn't shown that and while he almost always puts it in a spot where only his receiver can get it when throwing deep deep, the same can't always be said elsewhere. That and he also has a tendency to overthrow quite a bit,which is a major factor of him never turning it over deep. I rather him do that than under throw for a pick trying to do something he can't on a consistent basis. Comparing Flacco to the leagues most accurate QBs just isn't a good idea. He might not even be a top 10 QB in terms of pure accuracy. What he does have is a major cannon though with good enough accuracy to make big plays down field, zip the ball into tight spots short to mid range and the aforementioned tendency that limits turnovers greatly.

Give me a break, dude. I'm not even going to read your whole post. I'm not comparing Flacco's accuracy to anyone else. I know there are some guys who throw it more accurately most of the time. However, sometimes they don't and their receivers make tremendous catches to bail them out, which happens with every QB. It just seems like nobody is comfortable admitting that Peyton or Aaron or Drew would ever need someone to help them by making a great play. They are great, but no one is infallible. It just bothers me that when good receiving play occurs in Baltimore, which happens less than those other teams, that is automatically the reason the passing game works instead of giving Joe credit like the other QBs playing with good receivers.

[1/28/01]

Those guys have pinpoint accuracy and usually put it in the perfect spot where it is easy for them to get it and only they can do so, on a consistent basis. Flacco hasn't shown that and while he almost always puts it in a spot where only his receiver can get it when throwing deep deep, the same can't always be said elsewhere. That and he also has a tendency to overthrow quite a bit,which is a major factor of him never turning it over deep. I rather him do that than under throw for a pick trying to do something he can't on a consistent basis. Comparing Flacco to the leagues most accurate QBs just isn't a good idea. He might not even be a top 10 QB in terms of pure accuracy. What he does have is a major cannon though with good enough accuracy to make big plays down field, zip the ball into tight spots short to mid range and the aforementioned tendency that limits turnovers greatly.

His throws to INT ratio says otherwise. I like your posts. Easy to refute.

[PolishRifle]

Those guys have pinpoint accuracy and usually put it in the perfect spot where it is easy for them to get it and only they can do so, on a consistent basis. Flacco hasn't shown that and while he almost always puts it in a spot where only his receiver can get it when throwing deep deep, the same can't always be said elsewhere. That and he also has a tendency to overthrow quite a bit,which is a major factor of him never turning it over deep. I rather him do that than under throw for a pick trying to do something he can't on a consistent basis. Comparing Flacco to the leagues most accurate QBs just isn't a good idea. He might not even be a top 10 QB in terms of pure accuracy. What he does have is a major cannon though with good enough accuracy to make big plays down field, zip the ball into tight spots short to mid range and the aforementioned tendency that limits turnovers greatly.  

 

I am not saying, that Flacco is better than them, but there are alot of people coming up with excuses or even praise about "pinpoint accuracy" for them, while Joe gets bashed for allowing his receivers to make plays.

 

The only difference between this:

 

 

And this:

 

 

Is the name of the guy throwing the ball.

[izvoodoo]

I am not saying, that Flacco is better than them, but there are alot of people coming up with excuses or even praise about "pinpoint accuracy" for them, while Joe gets bashed for allowing his receivers to make plays.

 

The only difference between this:

 

 

And this:

 

 

Is the name of the guy throwing the ball.

Man I'd Love if Jimmy Graham were on this team.

[PolishRifle]

Man I'd Love if Jimmy Graham were on this team.

We drafted Ed Dickson BEFORE Graham got picked up by the Saints. Ozzie doesn't always get it right.

[izvoodoo]

We drafted Ed Dickson BEFORE Graham got picked up by the Saints. Ozzie doesn't always get it right.

It happens.  But if you look at any five year span I feel like ozzie is the best.

[Florida Ravens Fan]

Those guys have pinpoint accuracy and usually put it in the perfect spot where it is easy for them to get it and only they can do so, on a consistent basis. Flacco hasn't shown that and while he almost always puts it in a spot where only his receiver can get it when throwing deep deep, the same can't always be said elsewhere. That and he also has a tendency to overthrow quite a bit,which is a major factor of him never turning it over deep. I rather him do that than under throw for a pick trying to do something he can't on a consistent basis. Comparing Flacco to the leagues most accurate QBs just isn't a good idea. He might not even be a top 10 QB in terms of pure accuracy. What he does have is a major cannon though with good enough accuracy to make big plays down field, zip the ball into tight spots short to mid range and the aforementioned tendency that limits turnovers greatly.

Maybe if the WRs got seperation and stopped giving the Dbs piggie back rides, maybe he would make more accurate throws.

[GrimCoconut]

We drafted Ed Dickson BEFORE Graham got picked up by the Saints. Ozzie doesn't always get it right.

Yeah, and we also drafted Terrence Cody before Geno Atkins. 

 

2010 was a pretty rough year for Ozzie. Not sure how any of this has to do with Joe, though. 

[SecretAgentMan]

Yeah, and we also drafted Terrence Cody before Geno Atkins.

2010 was a pretty rough year for Ozzie. Not sure how any of this has to do with Joe, though.

It's Flacco's fault man.
Ozzie Newman knew that he was going to overpay using his powers of seeing into te future. So he intentionally passed on those two so he could afford him.

Well, that's what espn told me :P

[Tank 92]

His throws to INT ratio says otherwise. I like your posts. Easy to refute.

 

 

 

yup....and yep.

[5aiah]

His throws to INT ratio says otherwise. I like your posts. Easy to refute.

Actually you didn't read the post fully or you wouldn't have responded that way. You can't refute the truth, and here you try with a fallacy. I'm talking about actually watching the different QBs(elite accuracy) a number of games and seeing the difference. That stat you posted isn't necessarily indicative of actual QB accuracy but instead ability to limit turnovers,which I gave Flacco a ton of credit for and explained why he is able to do so as well as providing a statistical picture of said ability that backed up my opinion of how and where he best limits turnovers. You win for most ironic post ever sir. You have a high post count I see, but its quality over quantity. Thanks for the laugh though.

 

Maybe if the WRs got seperation and stopped giving the Dbs piggie back rides, maybe he would make more accurate throws.

Its more just his mechanics and focus but he is top 5(Stafford Jay and Flacco my top 3) in power and fringe top 10 accuracy wise. That being said his receivers could make it easier on him,I agree with you there, but at least you aren't pretending like he's Drew Brees in terms of accuracy.

 

I am not saying, that Flacco is better than them, but there are alot of people coming up with excuses or even praise about "pinpoint accuracy" for them, while Joe gets bashed for allowing his receivers to make plays.

See i don't think he does. I think he gets bashed for not being consistently accurate(among other things) and that's a legit point. Brees is laser like(consistently) with his passes and despite his lack of a cannon is one of the best deep ball throwers(top 5) in the entire league so of course he is going to get the benefit of the doubt. Joe just doesn't do what they do on a consistent basis in terms of ball placement so while of course it is unfair that he doesn't always get credit it is rooted in some truth and is just part of the deal until Flacco steps up and proves them wrong. Or he can just go out and win another Superbowl,pinpoint accuracy isn't everything. No matter who won the Superbowl a strong arm QB was going to win.