It's only preseason? Preseason game 2 thoughts

[5aiah]

and he replied by saying preseason over the years isn't indication of our regular season. Am I missing something here, he directly refuted the point you were making by saying you have no point because what you see now is not what you will see against denver.

Again my point is that the passing attack is suspect(was since Boldin left) and these games did nothing to dispel that. He never refuted that, at all, because that is just exactly what happened and there is no refuting that. It is reality. No one is saying the passing attack will be as bad against the Broncos(although it certainly could be) just because of the preseason. That is the strawman I'm referring too. He didn't directly refute anything i said. My only point is that the passing game is a question mark that is still a mystery after the candidates for WR2 were unimpressive.

 

Uh, wrong. A Strawman argument is when you turn one argument into a completely different argument and start attacking that - which ironically is what you are currently doing e.g. My argument is preseason means little to the regular season, and you talk about me claiming the team looks like srubs (WHICH I NEVER SAID - I bolded your claim). You said "the passing game looked suspect in TC" and I said "What we see in the offseason often has little bearing on what we see in the regular season". You claim to be worried because of PRESEASON performances, and now you are talking in circles. We look like a team who hasn't shown anything in the preseason, just like every other good team in the league. I merely point out preseason performance has no bearing on regular season performance in the majority of cases, and used history to point that out. You can't dispute that, so now you are trying to act like that's an invalid argument.  I never said I liked us looking as bad as we do, I merely point out that it doesn't tell us what this team will look like in the regular season.  You have a hard time understanding my point.  

Actually was responding to another who made that statement as well as pointing out you joined in on the strawman. I have long said passing game was suspect before Pitta even went down,before preseason started, not just these games. You went all nuclear on preseason,which was the strawman. Again my point was that Ravens passing attack looked suspect from the beginning, then others got injured and it looked worse, others haven't stepped up like they were supposed to and the preseason games have done absolutely nothing to prove otherwise. You attacked the argument that Preseason is an indicator of what will happen in the regular season. That wasn't my point, but your strawman.

[5aiah]

Furstenburg is a great athlete. I hope we keep him. He might become a major receiving threat. I also agree on Bajema.

Furstenburg has great upside and i think he could be a big contributor this year even though we usually give our rookie TEs a year to develop. I really want to see more of him with the first team. I think he can combine Dickson's down field ability with Pitta's route running and hands eventually. Also he is a good willing blocker, better than both of them. 

[Militant X 1]

I don't buy into the "it's only preseason" talk. This is where the road to the Lombardi starts. It's essential. However, preseason performances are NOT the end all be all.
 
That being said, McKinnie, Oher, Shipley, Reid, Jimmy, Shiancoe, and all wide receivers not named Torrey, Mellete, or Doss were stinky piles of garbage tonight.

yes sir!

~Mili

[5aiah]

I didn't illustrate your point. I made a joke on the panic or concern, that sets in, after two pre-season games, that quite frankly are of more value to coaches than fans. The offense didn't do much worse than it did last year in it's first 2 preseason games and that was with Boldin, Dickson and Pitta on the roster.

The one game next week, is the one that actually matters for the starters and gives a more accurate representation of what the offense will look this season.

i know, just wanted to make sure i wasn't lumped in with the panic guys.Too bad that didn't work, now I'm a preseason panic guy apparently, thanks a lot buddy. I don't think we can get a true read on the offense with the line we put out there. 

[ravensdan]

Well, with Torrey double teamed and the run game struggling a good part of the time we aren't going to see many points on the board. I'm not concerned with the entire team, it is only 2nd pre-season game and they'll get the wrinkles fixed. But these receiver questions have me really concerned. You can't get by with a high-powered QB and only 1 sure target. I don't like going into the season with questionable hands out there.

Of course you can. I really don't understand why everyone is flipping out about a number 2 receiver? Really? To be fair I am hearing similar things about New England as well. The saints have exactly zero star receivers. Eli has made Cruz and nicks into stars but they were unheralded. Everyone will see Jennings is a nobody w/o Rodgers this year. Actually going back to Brady, outside of one year with moss he hasn't had a single great receiver in his career.

What's important is we have flacco along with 2 game changing weapons in t smith and r rice. The other guys will all be used situationally to produce. Jones will look great when he is allowed to stretch the field. I also feel mallette could be a guy to step up quite a bit.

The concern is the oline play. Now that is something you can not win without. Center is definitely a big concern. Shipley was poor and Gino was less than stellar last week as well. Mckinnie is unreliable. I line how Wagner looks so far. I hope he steps up and snatches the job from mckinnie. The 5 up front is thd group that matters most this year.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Again my point is that the passing attack is suspect(was since Boldin left) and these games did nothing to dispel that. He never refuted that, at all, because that is just exactly what happened and there is no refuting that. It is reality. No one is saying the passing attack will be as bad against the Broncos(although it certainly could be) just because of the preseason. That is the strawman I'm referring too. He didn't directly refute anything i said. My only point is that the passing game is a question mark that is still a mystery after the candidates for WR2 were unimpressive.

 

Actually was responding to another who made that statement as well as pointing out you joined in on the strawman. I have long said passing game was suspect before Pitta even went down,before preseason started, not just these games. You went all nuclear on preseason,which was the strawman. Again my point was that Ravens passing attack looked suspect from the beginning, then others got injured and it looked worse, others haven't stepped up like they were supposed to and the preseason games have done absolutely nothing to prove otherwise. You attacked the argument that Preseason is an indicator of what will happen in the regular season. That wasn't my point, but your strawman.

 

And I think his point is, the passing game looked suspect last year before the playoffs even with Boldin and Pitta - especially in the preseason. What often looks suspect during the build up phase often turns out not to be.

 

It's not a straw man bc hes not creating an entirely new argument or subject. Hes directly refuting your claim by making the claim invalid. Preseason in not an indicator of what the reality is and therefore can neither support nor deny what the offenses performance will look like once fully installed.

 

Last preseason, we got destroyed by the Falcons and didn't look good at all in the preseason. Then against Cinci it looked like we were going to be a high flying offense. Then reality struck and we were somewhere in the middle, until the playoffs when it mattered.

 

Preseason never has and never will dispel concerns or support optimism. If it does you don't truly understand what the preseason is for.

[Sami84]

how much is jacoby getting paid?

[DMH_in_WA]

Wanted to post earlier, but had some things to do ... blinked and this topic blew up.  I pay very little attention to the team stuff in the 2nd game of the pre-season (especially when guys like Yanda and Webb didn't play).  Everything I'm looking at is individuals.  There's some weird technique and positioning things going on (both sides of the ball), but I'm confident our coaches will have those straightened out.  Well, there's Shipley .. I don't know what's going on there but with Gradkowski there I'm not too worried.

 

The thing that is bugging me right now is Jimmy Smith.  He was being openly abused at CB and if he's progressing, my eyes aren't good enough to see it.  From the video I've watched from camp, he has looked good in practice ... but man, that was painful to watch yesterday.  If they had been playing in a phone booth, I still think he couldn't have covered a single receiver on the field.  I really expected more with this being his 3rd year and since he has been with the 1st team defense all camp. Wow.

[PolishRifle]

i know, just wanted to make sure i wasn't lumped in with the panic guys.Too bad that didn't work, now I'm a preseason panic guy apparently, thanks a lot buddy. I don't think we can get a true read on the offense with the line we put out there. 

Look, I don't want this to devolve into name calling, so I apologize if I struck a nerve. You made a couple good points, but we went through the exact same thing last season. Last season, the offense had a hard time converting downs as well in the first two pre-season games (again WITH Boldin on the roster) and Joe looked a bit anemic last year as well until the offense came alive during the 3rd preseason game against the Jags.

Call me crazy, but I am not too unhappy with what I have seen, because Joe was constantly hitting his targets. Sure, there was an INT (the second one in pre-season) and some passes were a bit tough to catch (eventhough I do believe, that as long as the receiver has a hand on the ball and the opposing defense doesn't, the QB has done his job), but I do genuinely believe, that our short and intermediate passing game will help us in converting downs more consistently than we previously had, as soon as we get a set of dependable hands on the 2#WR and #1TE positions (Jacoby and Shiancoe clearly aren't the answer there).

Also, Marshall Yanda is worth every single penny the Ravens pay him.

[5aiah]

And I think his point is, the passing game looked suspect last year before the playoffs even with Boldin and Pitta - especially in the preseason. What often looks suspect during the build up phase often turns out not to be.

 

It's not a straw man bc hes not creating an entirely new argument or subject. Hes directly refuting your claim by making the claim invalid. Preseason in not an indicator of what the reality is and therefore can neither support nor deny what the offenses performance will look like once fully installed.

That is different because they know what Boldin and Pitta could do. We don't know what Doss,DT, Reed and Jacoby will do vs starting defenders in these roles. Again its not exactly about the preseason and what looks suspect during it as much as what has looked suspect far longer. He created an slightly different point and argued against it complete with game recaps and stats from other preseasons. Preseason can be an indicator of whether or not Doss will be able to get open and make plays, or if jacoby can run good routes and catch the ball, or if people can stay healthy day in and day out and play through the usual nicks and bruises. You are talking about fully installed offenses when i already mentioned the line isn't even set out there, no one is saying that. My posts were either misunderstood and lumped in with the panic people or just strawmanned just to win an argument. So far the preseason has supported then notion that Torrey is taking a step forward as the number one receiver while the others fail to truly stand out.

 

Preseason never has and never will dispel concerns or support optimism. If it does you don't truly understand what the preseason is for.

It's still football no matter how you want to spin it and when guys are going out there and playing their hardest you can look into their individual performance just fine. Doss' problems were the same as they have been his whole career, he did some good though too, and has gotten open more than some would admit. So it shows he has improved a bit as well.

[5aiah]

Look, I don't want this to devolve into name calling, so I apologize if I struck a nerve. You made a couple good points, but we went through the exact same thing last season.

Nah it wasn't you, just others that jumped on your joke. I get that it happened last season and I bet you guys had to deal with the board being in panic mode(so this time around yall are putting down the panic) but this isn't close to the same situation imo.

[PolishRifle]

Nah it wasn't you, just others that jumped on your joke. I get that it happened last season and I bet you guys had to deal with the board being in panic mode(so this time around yall are putting down the panic) but this isn't close to the same situation imo.

I just have to go by past experiences and think the problem will solve itself and we will see a much better offense next week. Joe might not be Tom Brady and Ray might not be Adrian Peterson, but the two of them together might very well be the best QB/RB combo in the league and that makes our offense already very versatile and competetive.

[Tank 92]

This guy

 

 

smh

[5aiah]

I just have to go by past experiences and think the problem will solve itself and we will see a much better offense next week. Joe might not be Tom Brady and Ray might not be Adrian Peterson, but the two of them together might very well be the best QB/RB combo in the league and that makes our offense already very versatile and competetive.

Oh no doubt it will be much better. Harbs is going to rip into them. Also Stokely and Clark should give us a boost next week as well. Doss should get plenty of time against first second and third string defenders. Also i concur that combination of strong arm QB and receiving HB is just so deadly. They both complement  each other so well in the passing game

[PolishRifle]

Oh no doubt it will be much better. Harbs is going to rip into them.

It certainly helped Mellette.

[beanfigger]

I just have to go by past experiences and think the problem will solve itself and we will see a much better offense next week. Joe might not be Tom Brady and Ray might not be Adrian Peterson, but the two of them together might very well be the best QB/RB combo in the league and that makes our offense already very versatile and competetive.

That's interesting. Who is our competition for best QB/RB combo? Brady/Ridley, Wilson/Lynch, Griffin/Morris? There are a lot of young guys there that might not exactly become what they've shown promise to be. I think the best competition for us is Schaub/Foster, and I like us in that comparison.

[Tank 92]

It`s worth repeating...... pre season sucks.

 

With all of the pre season injuries all around the league, it becomes more and more possible that pre season will be cut to two games in the next year or two and we have an 18 game regular season.

[Tank 92]

It certainly helped Mellette.

 

 

I luvs me some Mellette!  I hope he pans out.

[PolishRifle]

That's interesting. Who is our competition for best QB/RB combo? Brady/Ridley, Wilson/Lynch, Griffin/Morris? There are a lot of young guys there that might not exactly become what they've shown promise to be. I think the best competition for us is Schaub/Foster, and I like us in that comparison.

Rice is easily a top 5 RB and while you can make fair arguments against Flacco being top 5 in position, he is atleast a top 10QB. Doesn't happen too often, that the two focal points in an offense end up being among the best in the league.

 

I also think that Schaub/Foster are currently the second best QB/RB combo. Foster is a top5 RB and Schaub was, for some reason I can't comprehend, in the ProBowl, but is atleast good.

Cutler/Forte is decent, but I really don't like Cutler (week stock). I don't know how much of his success is thanks to Brandon Marshall.

[beanfigger]

Rice is easily a top 5 RB and while you can make fair arguments against Flacco being top 5 in position, he is atleast a top 10QB. Doesn't happen too often, that the two focal points in an offense end up being among the best in the league.

I also think that Schaub/Foster are currently the second best QB/RB combo. Foster is a top5 RB and Schaub was, for some reason I can't comprehend, in the ProBowl, but is atleast good.
Cutler/Forte is decent, but I really don't like Cutler (week stock). I don't know how much of his success is thanks to Brandon Marshall.

I thought of Cutler/Forte also after I posted. There are also a handful of new pairings that may prove to be in the conversation (Ryan/Jackson, Smith/Charles, Manning Roeth and Rodgers with their respective rookie backs), but I'd still take ours. I wonder how made SF fans would be if they were listening to us fail to even mention them. Haha.

[PolishRifle]

I thought of Cutler/Forte also after I posted. There are also a handful of new pairings that may prove to be in the conversation (Ryan/Jackson, Smith/Charles, Manning Roeth and Rodgers with their respective rookie backs), but I'd still take ours. I wonder how made SF fans would be if they were listening to us fail to even mention them. Haha.

I'd take KC over SF to be honest.

[Edgar]

 I want to see Rick Wagner start at Left Tackle for a quarter next week. Not saying he is better than Bryant, just curious how he would do since he has played great 2 weeks in a row at LT against back ups.

Rick wagner HAS looked great. I'm glad to see someone make note of that. 

[Cville-Raven]

Draft picks looked good.....yup that's about the only thing I cared about.

[ravensdan]

If we cut Jacoby and traded for a guy like Nate Washington I wouldn't be upset. Right now Jacoby is looking very overpaid. I also think that Visanthe won't make the cut based off of what I'm seeing from him but he probably will. I'm just not terribly impressed by him.

Come on now man. Jones single handedly won us games last year. He is fantastic at deep and especially bomb routes. We are clearly working on different types of routes in these games short to intermediate. With he and smith as well. We have not atempted to open the field with any deep routes or atempts with the first team in either of these games.

I think everyone would have a better perspective if they thought of these for what they are, preseaseon PRACTICES. That is what they are. So you can learn certain things from them and they are important but we shouldn't be judging them as games.

[GrimCoconut]

Come on now man. Jones single handedly won us games last year. He is fantastic at deep and especially bomb routes. We are clearly working on different types of routes in these games short to intermediate. With he and smith as well. We have not atempted to open the field with any deep routes or atempts with the first team in either of these games.

I think everyone would have a better perspective if they thought of these for what they are, preseaseon PRACTICES. That is what they are. So you can learn certain things from them and they are important but we shouldn't be judging them as games.

I've never been a big Jacoby Jones fan except on ST. 

 

I know they're practices and there's nothing big to take away from them other than how players play against other players in a slightly competitive, game simulation. 

 

My issue with Jones is the price tag combined with the performance. I think he's a very expensive WR3 & RS. That's all. He's an elite RS but borderline WR3. I actually think Jones would be better going deep with Torrey taking advantage of the short stuff. I believe that's what will happen. I recognize that it's very unlikely we won't cut Jones. I'm just saying my preference here as I've never been a big fan of his. I'm definitely not someone who's panicking over these scrimmages. If you've read my posts you'd know that, so I assume that was a generalized comment not directed at me. 

[Ravenslifer]

And I think his point is, the passing game looked suspect last year before the playoffs even with Boldin and Pitta - especially in the preseason. What often looks suspect during the build up phase often turns out not to be.

 

It's not a straw man bc hes not creating an entirely new argument or subject. Hes directly refuting your claim by making the claim invalid. Preseason in not an indicator of what the reality is and therefore can neither support nor deny what the offenses performance will look like once fully installed.

 

Last preseason, we got destroyed by the Falcons and didn't look good at all in the preseason. Then against Cinci it looked like we were going to be a high flying offense. Then reality struck and we were somewhere in the middle, until the playoffs when it mattered.

 

Preseason never has and never will dispel concerns or support optimism. If it does you don't truly understand what the preseason is for.

 

Thank you, that clarified my point better than I was able to.

[ravensdan]

I've never been a big Jacoby Jones fan except on ST.

I know they're practices and there's nothing big to take away from them other than how players play against other players in a slightly competitive, game simulation.

My issue with Jones is the price tag combined with the performance. I think he's a very expensive WR3 & RS. That's all. He's an elite RS but borderline WR3. I actually think Jones would be better going deep with Torrey taking advantage of the short stuff. I believe that's what will happen. I recognize that it's very unlikely we won't cut Jones. I'm just saying my preference here as I've never been a big fan of his. I'm definitely not someone who's panicking over these scrimmages. If you've read my posts you'd know that, so I assume that was a generalized comment not directed at me.

Yes the second part was a general comment not directed at you.
Can't believe everyone is bagging on my man jacoby again. #2,#3... To me that is not important. He is very good in certain situations. He's not going to catch 70 or 80 balls but he should have a very high yards per catch and could put up 800+ yards if the offense gets really humming. He is quite possibly the best return man in the game currently. That kind of game changing skill is invaluable. I would like to see more play designs to get him the ball in space on offense more this year. He is a far better receiver than any other elite return men I can think of... Hester, cribbs...can't think of the former chief....

[5aiah]

Yes the second part was a general comment not directed at you.
Can't believe everyone is bagging on my man jacoby again. #2,#3... To me that is not important. He is very good in certain situations. He's not going to catch 70 or 80 balls but he should have a very high yards per catch and could put up 800+ yards if the offense gets really humming. He is quite possibly the best return man in the game currently. That kind of game changing skill is invaluable. I would like to see more play designs to get him the ball in space on offense more this year. He is a far better receiver than any other elite return men I can think of... Hester, cribbs...can't think of the former chief....

Dante Hall? 

[ravensdan]

Dante Hall?

Yes thanks.

[Purple Nurple]

We have 16 regular season games to get ready for the play offs.

I like the way you think.