Average Joe

[Ravenslifer]

If you're looking for consistency with Flacco, just look year-to-year instead of week-to-week.  He does have stinkers, but chances are we don't go undefeated even if he doesn't.  His stat lines at the end of each season are very close, aside from his rookie season, and we always make and win in the playoffs.  That's pretty consistent.

 

If you want to say you'd rather see better individual regular season stats for Flacco, that's one thing.  However, you can't really argue that he has been inconsistent from one season to the next.

 

If you want something simple to show his consistency, look at his second-half stats the last 3 seasons.  Including playoffs he's played in 18, 18, and 20 games the last 3 seasons.  So looking at the last 9 games of 2010-2011, and the last 10 of 2012:

 

2010 - 13 TDs, 4 INTs

2011 - 14 TDs, 6 INTs

2012 - 20 TDs, 3 INTs.

 

Of course people will argue the playoff stats skew the picture, but if you look at the regular season stats I didn't include, a lot of those games were some of his best performances (i.e. the thrashing of the Steelers in 2011), so I think it balances out.

[izvoodoo]

Was Cam calling the plays that kept us in contention year after year?  I rest my case 

It's not that he was bad enough to keep us from the playoffs.  He was a decent coordinator.  And we had a decent number.

 

Caldwell is just better.  

[Ravenslifer]

Again his game plans were solid but predictable and conservative because he didn't believe in Joe who to be honest wasn't executing all that well. This is exactly what i mean by people heaping stuff on Cam but saying Joe was a great QB being held back. Joe and Cam deserve half the blame and once again, Cam getting fired was bigger than just his conservative and rigid play calling. Both teams in the Superbowl got there because they made aggressive moves that went away from conservatism and set the tone propelling them through the playoffs. When Alex Smith and Cam were fired it was for much more than their skills. The game plan didn't change as much just because of Caldwell, as people like to believe. That and the entire team flourished after Cam was gone. Those highly aggressive moves were very calculated and done for reasons aside from the popular one. I wish a player on the team(offense,defense,or special teams) would be able to tell us exactly what It was like after it had happened.

 

I think you're missing my point that the main issue with Cam's offenses is that they were so predicable and that's why Joe wasn't executing, nor were the receivers getting open, which again goes back to the fact that no matter how good you are, eventually if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, the defense will clamp down on it.  I'm not saying Joe is blameless and that he still doesn't need to show growth, but Cam's gameplans made it always an uphill battle because they didn't take advantage of the strengths of the personnel on the team, and they didn't adjust.  The game plan didn't change but the situational playcalling certainly did.  The goal was still to throw deep but instead of using a 2 WR 1 TE set you saw a lot more bunch formations to one side, unbalanced line, running different looks, running different plays from the same look i.e. on Jacoby's TD in Denver, they'd run the same formation on Torrey's TD earlier in the game, which caused Rahim Moore to hesitate in following Jacoby, allowing him to get behind.  That kind of stuff never happened under Cam.  Peter King also wrote an excellent article illustrating how Caldwell used Q and Pitta in the middle of the field more, whereas Cam kept them almost exclusively outside the numbers.

[Ravenslifer]

Was Cam calling the plays that kept us in contention year after year?  I rest my case 

 

So let me get this straight.  If Flacco is the quarterback that led us to the playoffs, it's because of "the great defense".  But if it's Cam, it's because "he's calling the plays that keep us in contention every year."?

[5aiah]

Yeah, this is why I hate using stats.

 

I will save a long, drawn out response and give you the short one ---

 

in response to what we were discussing earlier, Flacco isn't more or less consistent than 99% of the people out there. Using the Ryan comparo, I would venture to guess that while their negative outings are probably similar in amount (if we used our eyes and common sense, not stats), Ryan probably had more total games than Flacco where he was dominant.

And that is understandable given that the Falcons are built to pass, and we are a lot more well rounded.

I would say its much more understandable given that Ryan is in a tier above Flacco in terms of awareness,timing and accuracy. Flacco's strengths lend more to explosive but inconsistent plays while Ryan's lends more to consistent gains. The good thing is Flacco can improve and maybe overtake Ryan in his area of strength while Ryan cannot do the same in terms of throwing power. There is a reason why Ryan and Flacco are so close in skill yet so different. Ryan's weapons have nothing to do with that. Lets agree to disagree.

 

It's not that he was bad enough to keep us from the playoffs.  He was a decent coordinator.  And we had a decent number.

 

Caldwell is just better.  

This sums it up. Dude was decent man, give him some credit. Flacco turned out well and he had a hand in that. Never know what someone else would have done. 

 

So let me get this straight.  If Flacco is the quarterback that led us to the playoffs, it's because of "the great defense".  But if it's Cam, it's because "he's calling the plays that keep us in contention every year."?

Who said that?
 

 

I think you're missing my point that the main issue with Cam's offenses is that they were so predicable and that's why Joe wasn't executing, nor were the receivers getting open, which again goes back to the fact that no matter how good you are, eventually if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, the defense will clamp down on it.  I'm not saying Joe is blameless and that he still doesn't need to show growth, but Cam's gameplans made it always an uphill battle because they didn't take advantage of the strengths of the personnel on the team, and they didn't adjust.  The game plan didn't change but the situational playcalling certainly did.  The goal was still to throw deep but instead of using a 2 WR 1 TE set you saw a lot more bunch formations to one side, unbalanced line, running different looks, running different plays from the same look i.e. on Jacoby's TD in Denver, they'd run the same formation on Torrey's TD earlier in the game, which caused Rahim Moore to hesitate in following Jacoby, allowing him to get behind.  That kind of stuff never happened under Cam.  Peter King also wrote an excellent article illustrating how Caldwell used Q and Pitta in the middle of the field more, whereas Cam kept them almost exclusively outside the numbers.

I get your point and I read that article, but you are missing my point that the firing and subsequent turnaround was much bigger than that and that it affected more than just the Ravens offense(and that the effect on the offense was that it turned guys around). Boldin and co. also were just playing better than before as well, it wasn't just the play calling changes that led to the turnaround.   

[Ravenslifer]

The poster I quoted said that.  He said "Cam's offenses consistently got us to the playoffs" yet over the course of last 3 years he has routinely posted that Flacco is an average to below-average quarterback who is carried by his defense.  You can't say the offense was decent then turn around and say one of the most important players on the offense was terrible.  Aside from Flacco the only other consistent player on this offense was Rice.  So either the defense carried the offense or Joe did just as decent a job as Cam, is what I'm trying to get at with that guy.  His point has always been that we could have had anybody besides Joe and still have the same team resume that we've had over the last 5 years, because Joe has such "average" ability that any street free agent could do his job.

 

 

Who said that?
 

 

 

[5aiah]

The poster I quoted said that.  He said "Cam's offenses consistently got us to the playoffs" yet over the course of last 3 years he has routinely posted that Flacco is an average to below-average quarterback who is carried by his defense.  You can't say the offense was decent then turn around and say one of the most important players on the offense was terrible.  Aside from Flacco the only other consistent player on this offense was Rice.  So either the defense carried the offense or Joe did just as decent a job as Cam, is what I'm trying to get at with that guy.  His point has always been that we could have had anybody besides Joe and still have the same team resume that we've had over the last 5 years, because Joe has such "average" ability that any street free agent could do his job.

Oh its something personal between you two that goes back years. Sorry for butting in. Lol.

[display name]

It's not that he was bad enough to keep us from the playoffs.  He was a decent coordinator.  And we had a decent number.

 

Caldwell is just better.  

The passon 4th&2 against Phili while Rice was averaging 6 yards a run does not sound like a decent coordinator to me.

[display name]

If you're looking for consistency with Flacco, just look year-to-year instead of week-to-week.  He does have stinkers, but chances are we don't go undefeated even if he doesn't.  His stat lines at the end of each season are very close, aside from his rookie season, and we always make and win in the playoffs.  That's pretty consistent.

 

If you want to say you'd rather see better individual regular season stats for Flacco, that's one thing.  However, you can't really argue that he has been inconsistent from one season to the next.

Joe is a model of consistency.

[gabefergy]

Are we really still debating Joe Flacco's worth?

 

[5aiah]

Are we really still debating Joe Flacco's worth?

Nope, we aren't.

[ravens533]

1/21/01 is right that you get paid to play at a certain level going forward. But what you've done is the best indication of what you'll do. No one pays a guy money and says "Ok, NOW he's gonna start playing well."

Well there is one person that pays big and then says that - Jerry Jones lol

[Guest RBates]

Wouldn't a decent OC be able to identify and make in-game adjustments? It's not exactly a secret that our offense was painfully predictable under Cameron.

 

Or would a decent OC hold our offense back to the extent that he did? The contrast between what went on with Cam and then when Caldwell took over is insane. It certainly indicates that either:

 

1. Caldwell is Jesus in disguise; a modern day miracle worker

 

or

 

2. Cam Cameron is an albatross, a sorry excuse for an OC; or at the very least, not very good at his job.

Formulating a winning strategy is the offensive coordinator's job.  He has proven that he can do that.  Evidence in the record of games won.  

[Guest RBates]

You did? Why did he get fired by his close friend, then?

Why he got fired and if he was decent or not are two very different things.  I would fire my friend also if I think there was someone better that I could hire at his position. It's a business at the end of the day.  

 

Getting fired is not in any way a knock on Cam its actually saying that we wanted to go in a different direction. Nothing more 

[Guest RBates]

It's not that he was bad enough to keep us from the playoffs.  He was a decent coordinator.  And we had a decent number.

 

Caldwell is just better.  

This is my point. So we agree. 

[flaccopoe]

Why are we still arguing about Caldwell vs. Cameron?!  BAL won a Super Bowl with Caldwell.  Let's stop dwelling on the past.

[Guest RBates]

So let me get this straight.  If Flacco is the quarterback that led us to the playoffs, it's because of "the great defense".  But if it's Cam, it's because "he's calling the plays that keep us in contention every year."?

Flacco playing his position under Cam was Decent as well.  The defense played its part also.  With all things working in harmony we made the playoffs, year in and year out.  

 

Are you trying to get me to say something negative about Flacco? If so he looks bad right now in preseason with Caldwell calling the plays.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Why he got fired and if he was decent or not are two very different things.  I would fire my friend also if I think there was someone better that I could hire at his position. It's a business at the end of the day.  

 

Getting fired is not in any way a knock on Cam its actually saying that we wanted to go in a different direction. Nothing more 

 

Firing a guy that late in the season when you have a winning record, 4 going on 5 playoff appearances, and having won a playoff game each of those years is a knock on Cam.

 

That basically saying that we believe all our success wasn't BECAUSE of you, we did it in SPITE of you, and before we blow another opportunity to win it all bc of your poor game planning, play calling and personnel use.... we're going to fire you and put our chips in the basket of a guy whose never been a coordinator before.

 

I could understand what youre saying if they fired him for a guy with a better track record, but they fired him for a guy with NO track record with only a couple weeks to prepare for the playoffs. If Caldwell was just clearly a better man for the job, they wouldn't have brought Cam into the season - they would have saved him the embarrassment of firing him near the end of the season.

 

I think it just took an outsiders opinion (Caldwell's) to convince Harbaugh just how much his buddy had been holding the offense back.

[Tank 92]

Firing a guy that late in the season when you have a winning record, 4 going on 5 playoff appearances, and having won a playoff game each of those years is a knock on Cam.

 

That basically saying that we believe all our success wasn't BECAUSE of you, we did it in SPITE of you, and before we blow another opportunity to win it all bc of your poor game planning, play calling and personnel use.... we're going to fire you and put our chips in the basket of a guy whose never been a coordinator before.

 

I could understand what youre saying if they fired him for a guy with a better track record, but they fired him for a guy with NO track record with only a couple weeks to prepare for the playoffs. If Caldwell was just clearly a better man for the job, they wouldn't have brought Cam into the season - they would have saved him the embarrassment of firing him near the end of the season.

 

I think it just took an outsiders opinion (Caldwell's) to convince Harbaugh just how much his buddy had been holding the offense back.

 

This pretty much says it.

 

There's no telling how well Joe and the O would have performed without the ball and chain.

[Guest RBates]

Firing a guy that late in the season when you have a winning record, 4 going on 5 playoff appearances, and having won a playoff game each of those years is a knock on Cam.

 

That basically saying that we believe all our success wasn't BECAUSE of you, we did it in SPITE of you, and before we blow another opportunity to win it all bc of your poor game planning, play calling and personnel use.... we're going to fire you and put our chips in the basket of a guy whose never been a coordinator before.

 

I could understand what youre saying if they fired him for a guy with a better track record, but they fired him for a guy with NO track record with only a couple weeks to prepare for the playoffs. If Caldwell was just clearly a better man for the job, they wouldn't have brought Cam into the season - they would have saved him the embarrassment of firing him near the end of the season.

 

I think it just took an outsiders opinion (Caldwell's) to convince Harbaugh just how much his buddy had been holding the offense back.

  Even if you currently thought that our team has won that many games in spite of the man that has game planned 4 consecutive winning seasons and was one catch away from game planning a super bowl of his own.  You still can't believe that he is not at least a decent offensive coordinator.  Holding us back or not, the fact remains, he is at least decent. 

[Free Agent]

  Even if you currently thought that our team has won that many games in spite of the man that has game planned 4 consecutive winning seasons and was one catch away from game planning a super bowl of his own.  You still can't believe that he is not at least a decent offensive coordinator.  Holding us back or not, the fact remains, he is at least decent. 

 

Why defend him? We all saw what our offense was capable of last year in the playoffs without Cam. Decent or not, he held back our offense, and we are far, far, far better off without him.

[flynismo]

By definition, a 'decent' OC would not be holding our offense back. That is what poor and mediocre coordinators do.

Cam sucked, get over it.

[MrPlankton]

I don't see the point in continuing to argue about Cam. He's gone, he's not coming back and the fact that no other team in the NFL was willing to offer him any kind of position says enough.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

  Even if you currently thought that our team has won that many games in spite of the man that has game planned 4 consecutive winning seasons and was one catch away from game planning a super bowl of his own.  You still can't believe that he is not at least a decent offensive coordinator.  Holding us back or not, the fact remains, he is at least decent. 

 

I get what you're saying, but if he really was decent I think someone would have offered him a job. If anyone in the league really thought he was responsible for coordinating an NFL worthy offense to that much success, he would have found an NFL job right away. (Especially with how much coaching turnover there was this year, certainly a decent offensive coordinator could find a staff job somewhere, right?)

 

But he didn't.

[flynismo]

By definition, a 'decent' OC would not be holding our offense back. That is what poor and mediocre coordinators do.

Cam sucked, get over it.

 

Oh and just for the record, I would like to take the opportunity to pat myself on the back, for everyone who used to get on my case about the rants I used to make about the guy.

Not exactly the greatest accomplishment, since all I did was state the obvious -- predictable, ill-fitting offense, stubborn, power freak...but hey, I'll take it.

 

Back to your regularly scheduled pissing-contest....

[Tank 92]

  Even if you currently thought that our team has won that many games in spite of the man that has game planned 4 consecutive winning seasons and was one catch away from game planning a super bowl of his own.  You still can't believe that he is not at least a decent offensive coordinator.  Holding us back or not, the fact remains, he is at least decent. 

 

 

He was definitely not the worst.  I think it's fair to say he was decent and I think he probably helped Joe tremendously his rookie year. But in subsequent years his generally predictable play calling stifled both Joe and the offense. It's still unknown if Caldwell is the answer because we don't have much to go on, but he's done pretty well so far.