Average Joe

[Guest RBates]

You can say that about any QB in the league. Who is Montanta without Rice and Craig? Peyton without Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Edge? Etc etc etc...still great QB's, but their offenses and teams suffer without a great supporting cast. Way to state the obvious...

Peyton is Peyton no matter where he ends up (Evidence in Denver).  Montana had the privilege of working with the best to ever play the position in Rice.  Then role players in everyone else.  Of course you suffer without a supporting cast but suffering is an understatement to what I'm seeing on the field.  Minus one slant route for 77 yards I haven't even seen a good throw.  Now this is the obvious.  

[5aiah]

See, I hate stats, and I was hesitant to use them in my other post, but I suppose we really dont have anything more objective to measure them by.

 

And I do realize that you are not knocking or complaining about Flacco or his deal, so nothing I've said is really directed at you; it would just be weird if I said these things for no apparent reason so I use you as a sounding board, lol...

 

But the whole consistency argument against Flacco is and always was maddening. Does he need to be more consistent? Hell yes. But so does every single other QB out there, save for Rodgers and Peyton. Those two guys are unbelievable in their week to week performance.

So to hear about Matty Ice getting his due in regard to his contract, I agree. The guy can play ball, and deserves what he got. Just dont turn around and tell me that Flacco doesn't deserve his contract or call him overpaid (again not talking to you personally here).

 

Now, what I do object to is your comment:

 

from what I see he doesn't match up in terms of awareness,reading the defense, and precision passing(timing and pinpoint accuracy) to guys like Arod and Matt Ryan

 

I agree -- to an extent -- with those assesments. Timing routes are not part of our playbook (generally speaking of course). So we cant really make that comparison, and by default have to assume that those two guys are better at it, since they are so good in those aspects.

Awareness, I would agree.

Reading the defense I totally disagree with. Just look at what happened when Cam left. Flacco was given a little more control to audible, and it paid off big time.

 

In fact, I just came across this article:

 

http://bigeasysportstalk.com/2013/06/17/how-did-the-baltimore-ravens-win-the-super-bowl/

 

It doesn't support my claim above directly, but it supports the idea that Flacco's awareness greatly improved when Caldwell took over. Nothing too heavy, but great food for thought

Excellent article that basically tells the story we all know but for the outsiders who don't. Without doubt Flacco was a different QB and some of the mental aspects of his game improved by the change. Its just that I think the reason we don't have more timing routes is to avoid a weaker area of his game, but that he is improving as we speak and will be able to handle more variety in the passing game. That being said he will need receivers who can run routes.

 

Sorry to type this:  Flacco without a player like Boldin or Pitta will come back to bite us in the hindparts.  

 

I told you guys before he needs a go to guy that he can rely on third downs.  We payed him like he could develop these type of players.

Not the case.  

 

Now looking at the  First string offense as a whole, we looked pretty bad in our first two preseason games.  He has not built any chemistry with the new talent.  This is why you leave money on the books for your help if you want to be great.  Just saying.

 

I don't blame Flacco for his contract, however, someone was supposed to tell him without a Boldin and a Pitta you will return to the average Joe.

Ouch, pessimistic view, but not entirely unwarranted. Flacco's favored plays were simple reads to his possession guys(Boldin and Pitta). That being said what QB can throw to Torrey and ???????????? and be very good.

 

You can say that about any QB in the league. Who is Montanta without Rice and Craig? Peyton without Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Edge? Etc etc etc...still great QB's, but their offenses and teams suffer without a great supporting cast. Way to state the obvious...

Think his point is that those guys could still run good offenses while Joe will be just average without help. I don't agree but I get his point.

 

You know you are trying to argue with a guy who said last year "Cam Cameron is a good and decent offensive coordinator", right?

Cam was a good and decent coordinator, just not what we needed this late in Flacco's career and development and his firing was a catalyst for reasons other than his playcalling. Cam was one of our best offensive coordinators ever(which isn't saying much).

[Ravenslifer]

5aiah, on 18 Aug 2013 - 2:40 PM, said:

Excellent article that basically tells the story we all know but for the outsiders who don't. Without doubt Flacco was a different QB and some of the mental aspects of his game improved by the change. Its just that I think the reason we don't have more timing routes is to avoid a weaker area of his game, but that he is improving as we speak and will be able to handle more variety in the passing game. That being said he will need receivers who can run routes.

Ouch, pessimistic view, but not entirely unwarranted. Flacco's favored plays were simple reads to his possession guys(Boldin and Pitta). That being said what QB can throw to Torrey and ???????????? and be very good.

Think his point is that those guys could still run good offenses while Joe will be just average without help. I don't agree but I get his point.

Cam was a good and decent coordinator, just not what we needed this late in Flacco's career and development and his firing was a catalyst for reasons other than his playcalling. Cam was one of our best offensive coordinators ever(which isn't saying much).

Cam is good for young quarterbacks - he has never coordinated a developed quarterback successfully, ever. He was done here after 2010 - we had threads on it back then. In fact the title was "Cam or Can", and the clear majority voted "Can". My point being, there are some here who believed it was Joe's fault and not Cam's that the offense struggled so badly the last few years, and we got our answer when Jim took over and made some small tweaks. So when the same individuals are now crying over some perceived weaknesses (and I say perceived because Joe is completing over 70 percent of his passes and hasn't had one downfield attempt, in 2 preseason games, when apparently if he doesn't have 300 yards and 3 TDs he automatically sucks) I just have to roll my eyes, because they can't admit when they were wrong, and in fact go out of their way to pretend they didn't post things any of us can go back and look up.

[Guest RBates]

You know you are trying to argue with a guy who said last year "Cam Cameron is a good and decent offensive coordinator", right?

Good and decent???Which one?  As I recall we won a super bowl with the guys playbook.  Just needed someone else calling the plays.

 

Amazingly you don't think he is at least a decent offensive coordinator.   How many games did we win in his years here?  Oh okay!

[izvoodoo]

Worst comes to worse we draft higher and just build next year.  We had a rash of injuries in our passing game.

[poescrows]

I'll take the Flacco / Ryan comparison above a step further.

 

Is Flacco really any more or less consistent than other guys? Look at Ryan again...

 

- A game against TB where he threw the ball 44 times, and had just 238 yards, 1 TD and 0 INT to show for it.

 

- 33 pass attempts against NO was good for 165 yards and 1 TD and 0 INT

 

- 0 TD and 5 INT against AZ (god forbid Flacco ever did that)

 

- 37 pass attempts against OAK resulted in 1 TD and 3 INT

 

- 49 pass attempts against CAR for 2 TD and 1 INT

 

- The playoff game against SEA, where he netted 250 yards on 35 attempts, and 3 TD and 2 INT

 

Those are six mediocre to terrible performances.

 

Is this the kind of consistency that Flacco is supposed to be striving for? If so, Flacco is already as consistent, because I counted 6 mediocre or worse performances from Flacco last year (in two more games played). Go look for yourself and tell me the six stinkers:

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/11252/joe-flacco

You get a +1 on this post. Good job ;)

[5aiah]

Cam is good for young quarterbacks - he has never coordinated a developed quarterback successfully, ever.  He was done here after 2010 - we had threads on it back then.  In fact the title was "Cam or Can", and the clear majority voted "Can".

Sure that is the common knock on him. Don't forget he drew up the play that would have gotten us to a SB if not for a drop. You guys put a lot of Flacco's problems onto Cam. He had to go,yes, but he actually did an ok job. 

 

Worst comes to worse we draft higher and just build next year.  We had a rash of injuries in our passing game.

Exactly. Injuries are hitting us harder than the Boldin trade. Tons of high quality receivers next year too.

 

Good and decent???Which one?  As I recall we won a super bowl with the guys playbook.  Just needed someone else calling the plays.

 

Amazingly you don't think he is at least a decent offensive coordinator.   How many games did we win in his years here?  Oh okay!

Yeah anyone saying Cam wasn't decent either isn't a longtime Ravens fan or doesn't remember the old days. We suffered through worse. Cam helped develop the best QB we ever had, so he's fine in my book. His play calling was crucial to keeping Joe on track until he outgrew it. You want to see what happens to QBs with talent who get crushed by failure and defeat take a look at Sanchez.

[flynismo]

As I recall we won a super bowl with the guys playbook.  Just needed someone else calling the plays.

 

Bhahaha.....an OC who cant run an offense and call plays is as useful as a bar of soap in PIT

[Ravenslifer]

Sure that is the common knock on him. Don't forget he drew up the play that would have gotten us to a SB if not for a drop. You guys put a lot of Flacco's problems onto Cam. He had to go,yes, but he actually did an ok job. 

 

Exactly. Injuries are hitting us harder than the Boldin trade. Tons of high quality receivers next year too.

 

Yeah anyone saying Cam wasn't decent either isn't a longtime Ravens fan or doesn't remember the old days. We suffered through worse. Cam helped develop the best QB we ever had, so he's fine in my book. His play calling was crucial to keeping Joe on track until he outgrew it. You want to see what happens to QBs with talent who get crushed by failure and defeat take a look at Sanchez.

 

I've been a Ravens fan since our quarterback was Eric Zeier.  Cam was done, period end of story.  That wasn't the point.  The point is certain individuals said the gameplans were solid and Joe wasn't executing.  That proved NOT to be the case as evidenced by Joe's flourishing after Cam was gone and the gameplan changed.

[izvoodoo]

Bhahaha.....an OC who cant run an offense and call plays is as useful as a bar of soap in PIT

Also, play books are relatively similar among offensive philosophies.

 

Games are won on gameday.

[Guest RBates]

Also, play books are relatively similar among offensive philosophies.

 

Games are won on gameday.

Was Cam calling the plays that kept us in contention year after year?  I rest my case 

[flynismo]

Where Cam called the plays that kept us in contention year after year.  I rest my case 

You mean despite Cam.

 

How is it that our offense explodes the instant he drags his tail out of town? If he were so good, shouldn't they have been playing on this level all along?

[MrPlankton]

Cam is one of the main reasons why there's a WR problem around here. Rarely used more than 2 (the starting 2 mostly) at a time. 

[GrimCoconut]

Why do we have two Joe Flacco topics? This is confusing

[Ravenslifer]

Good and decent???Which one?  As I recall we won a super bowl with the guys playbook.  Just needed someone else calling the plays.

 

Amazingly you don't think he is at least a decent offensive coordinator.   How many games did we win in his years here?  Oh okay!

 

Your EXACT QUOTE "Alot of this is due to rule changes. Cam is as decent as they come at coordinating offense."  Cam is decent, is what you said.  You said nothing about the playbook. The quote was december 8, 2012 at 12:58 am.  Your point being that it was Joe's inability to execute Cam's gamplans, not the gameplans themselves, that were the reason for offensive struggles.  And every offensive coordinator in the NFL has the same basic playbook, with the same tactics and plays.  It's all about when to use the plays and knowing the plays that your personnel can exploit.

[Guest RBates]

Your EXACT QUOTE "Alot of this is due to rule changes. Cam is as decent as they come at coordinating offense."  Cam is decent, is what you said.  You said nothing about the playbook. The quote was december 8, 2012 at 12:58 am.

And i have proven that he is decent.  Fine by me. 

[Guest RBates]

Cam is one of the main reasons why there's a WR problem around here. Rarely used more than 2 (the starting 2 mostly) at a time. 

Are we still blaming Cam? He's gone!

[GrimCoconut]

Are we still blaming Cam? He's gone!

I think they point is that those guys didn't get a lot of game reps.

[Guest RBates]

You mean despite Cam.

 

How is it that our offense explodes the instant he drags his tail out of town? If he were so good, shouldn't they have been playing on this level all along?

We are debating whether or not Cam is decent. That's all.  The offense i currently see is imploding. First string looks like a JV team.  Minus Torrey and K.O

[flynismo]

We are debating whether or not Cam is decent. That's all.  The offense i currently see is imploding. First string looks like a JV team.  Minus Torrey and K.O

 

Wouldn't a decent OC be able to identify and make in-game adjustments? It's not exactly a secret that our offense was painfully predictable under Cameron.

 

Or would a decent OC hold our offense back to the extent that he did? The contrast between what went on with Cam and then when Caldwell took over is insane. It certainly indicates that either:

 

1. Caldwell is Jesus in disguise; a modern day miracle worker

 

or

 

2. Cam Cameron is an albatross, a sorry excuse for an OC; or at the very least, not very good at his job.

[flynismo]

And i have proven that he is decent.  Fine by me. 

 

You did? Why did he get fired by his close friend, then?

[flynismo]

Why do we have two Joe Flacco topics? This is confusing

 

He is the SB MVP. He can have as many topics as he sees fit, lol

[GrimCoconut]

He is the SB MVP. He can have as many topics as he sees fit, lol

Lol. Good point

[5aiah]

I'll take the Flacco / Ryan comparison above a step further.

 

Is Flacco really any more or less consistent than other guys? Look at Ryan again...

 

- A game against TB where he threw the ball 44 times, and had just 238 yards, 1 TD and 0 INT to show for it.

 

- 33 pass attempts against NO was good for 165 yards and 1 TD and 0 INT

 

- 0 TD and 5 INT against AZ (god forbid Flacco ever did that)

 

- 37 pass attempts against OAK resulted in 1 TD and 3 INT

 

- 49 pass attempts against CAR for 2 TD and 1 INT

 

- The playoff game against SEA, where he netted 250 yards on 35 attempts, and 3 TD and 2 INT

 

Those are six mediocre to terrible performances.

 

Is this the kind of consistency that Flacco is supposed to be striving for? If so, Flacco is already as consistent, because I counted 6 mediocre or worse performances from Flacco last year (in two more games played). Go look for yourself and tell me the six stinkers:

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/11252/joe-flacco

I really liked that you did your homework there so i went back and checked it over. I would say Flacco has more terrible games though.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/17/refo-broncos-ravens-week-15/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/10/refo-ravens-redskins-week-14/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/20/refo-ravens-steelers-week-11/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/04/refo-steelers-ravens-week13/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/10/23/refo-ravens-texans-week-7/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/09/18/refo-ravens-eagles-week-2/

I'm not even including the bad games that weren't his fault mainly. I like that you were able to get all of that but summaries are better than just stats because they tell more of the story. Like the chiefs game, Flacco didn't have such a good day but it was more that his line was so bad. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/10/08/refo-ravens-chiefs-week-5/

 

As for Matt Ryan.

The Arizona game I will dispute because you put emphasis on the 5 picks which were all from tipped, 3 by receivers and two at the line apparently. That and he led a 70 yard TD drive for the win in clutch fashion. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/20/refo-cardinals-falcons-week-11/

Oak and NO  those were just bad games. The latter saints game I'll give you that and nothing to say about the Raider game. The TB game was a week 17 glorified scrimmage in which the Falcons couldn't run or pass protect so i will dispute that one. The Carolina game wasn't that bad(disappointing for the Falcon high powered offense) at all. The Saints game looked like that because of confusing play calling to get away from what was working(running the ball). The Seattle game he played well in(against one of the best pass defenses in the league) so I'm not sure why you listed that and i dispute using that as a bad or mediocre game too. That's the thing with basic stats it just doesn't tell much of the story. The thing with the Cardinals is a perfect example of what i am talking about. Even if a pass hits a receivers hands and flies out into a defenders hands it still looks like a bad interception. Also you are penalizing Matt Ryan for throwing a high number of pass attempts when that is just how their offense works(especially when they have no legit running game and have to throw to make up for it). I like this debate though. Good stuff.

[Ravenslifer]

I think they point is that those guys didn't get a lot of game reps.

 

No my point for what seems like the last 4 days since the preseason game is that Joe will be just fine this season, he is in fact NOT struggling in the preseason completing 70 percent of his passes, and the loss of Q and Pitta, while tough, will be something he can overcome, particularly since he's got great talent around him and an offensive coordinator who seems to understand how to utilize both his strengths and the other offensive players strengths well.  

 

In response, a particular poster seems to still be under the illusion that it's all Flacco being bailed out by the receivers, and is in fact calling his performance struggling.  Joe in 2 preseason games has thrown 18 passes and completed 14 of them - hardly what I'd call struggling, especially given that his opponent Thursday attempted 15 passes and only completed 7, on Thursday alone.  Yet the same poster continually bashes Flacco because that's a thing he does.  

 

I've got no problem with it - but if there is an opportunity to point out that he has been very wrong in the past, particularly since he's thrown in my face several times that "his depth of knowledge of football would make us all uncomfortable" if he actually unleashed it, I will.  I apologize, but if there is one thing in this world I cannot understand, it's arrogance, even if you do know what you are talking about.

[flynismo]

"his depth of knowledge of football would make us all uncomfortable" if he actually unleashed it

 

And that is why I call him MasterRBates.

 

:D

[flynismo]

I really liked that you did your homework there so i went back and checked it over. I would say Flacco has more terrible games though.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/17/refo-broncos-ravens-week-15/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/10/refo-ravens-redskins-week-14/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/20/refo-ravens-steelers-week-11/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/04/refo-steelers-ravens-week13/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/10/23/refo-ravens-texans-week-7/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/09/18/refo-ravens-eagles-week-2/

I'm not even including the bad games that weren't his fault mainly. I like that you were able to get all of that but summaries are better than just stats because they tell more of the story. Like the chiefs game, Flacco didn't have such a good day but it was more that his line was so bad. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/10/08/refo-ravens-chiefs-week-5/

 

As for Matt Ryan.

The Arizona game I will dispute because you put emphasis on the 5 picks which were all from tipped, 3 by receivers and two at the line apparently. That and he led a 70 yard TD drive for the win in clutch fashion. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/20/refo-cardinals-falcons-week-11/

Oak and NO  those were just bad games. The latter saints game I'll give you that and nothing to say about the Raider game. The TB game was a week 17 glorified scrimmage in which the Falcons couldn't run or pass protect so i will dispute that one. The Carolina game wasn't that bad(disappointing for the Falcon high powered offense) at all. The Saints game looked like that because of confusing play calling to get away from what was working(running the ball). The Seattle game he played well in(against one of the best pass defenses in the league) so I'm not sure why you listed that and i dispute using that as a bad or mediocre game too. That's the thing with basic stats it just doesn't tell much of the story. The thing with the Cardinals is a perfect example of what i am talking about. Even if a pass hits a receivers hands and flies out into a defenders hands it still looks like a bad interception. Also you are penalizing Matt Ryan for throwing a high number of pass attempts when that is just how their offense works(especially when they have no legit running game and have to throw to make up for it). I like this debate though. Good stuff.

 

 

Yeah, this is why I hate using stats.

 

I will save a long, drawn out response and give you the short one ---

 

in response to what we were discussing earlier, Flacco isn't more or less consistent than 99% of the people out there. Using the Ryan comparo, I would venture to guess that while their negative outings are probably similar in amount (if we used our eyes and common sense, not stats), Ryan probably had more total games than Flacco where he was dominant.

And that is understandable given that the Falcons are built to pass, and we are a lot more well rounded.

[beanfigger]

If you're looking for consistency with Flacco, just look year-to-year instead of week-to-week.  He does have stinkers, but chances are we don't go undefeated even if he doesn't.  His stat lines at the end of each season are very close, aside from his rookie season, and we always make and win in the playoffs.  That's pretty consistent.

 

If you want to say you'd rather see better individual regular season stats for Flacco, that's one thing.  However, you can't really argue that he has been inconsistent from one season to the next.

[5aiah]

I've been a Ravens fan since our quarterback was Eric Zeier.  Cam was done, period end of story.  That wasn't the point.  The point is certain individuals said the gameplans were solid and Joe wasn't executing.  That proved NOT to be the case as evidenced by Joe's flourishing after Cam was gone and the gameplan changed.

Again his game plans were solid but predictable and conservative because he didn't believe in Joe who to be honest wasn't executing all that well. This is exactly what i mean by people heaping stuff on Cam but saying Joe was a great QB being held back. Joe and Cam deserve half the blame and once again, Cam getting fired was bigger than just his conservative and rigid play calling. Both teams in the Superbowl got there because they made aggressive moves that went away from conservatism and set the tone propelling them through the playoffs. When Alex Smith and Cam were fired it was for much more than their skills. The game plan didn't change as much just because of Caldwell, as people like to believe. That and the entire team flourished after Cam was gone. Those highly aggressive moves were very calculated and done for reasons aside from the popular one. I wish a player on the team(offense,defense,or special teams) would be able to tell us exactly what It was like after it had happened.

[5aiah]

If you're looking for consistency with Flacco, just look year-to-year instead of week-to-week.  He does have stinkers, but chances are we don't go undefeated even if he doesn't.  His stat lines at the end of each season are very close, aside from his rookie season, and we always make and win in the playoffs.  That's pretty consistent.

 

If you want to say you'd rather see better individual regular season stats for Flacco, that's one thing.  However, you can't really argue that he has been inconsistent from one season to the next.

See that is what happened earlier, It's not about stats at all, but Flacco's on field consistency as a passer from game to game. Stats involve other people much more than what i am talking about. I'm talking about settling down into a consistent passing effort in regards to the mental aspects of passing like his fellow elite have done before him when they were at his age. Stats is the very thing I didn't bring into this debate for a reason. Too late I guess, Lol.